Trying to be compassionate

[RomanticFool]

I haven't shared on here for a while but things have improved considerably with my ex married lover. For those who don't know, I have been involved in a r/s with a vulnerable woman spanning a number of years and on the current recycle it has been over 5 years since we reconnected. I consider that my ex may have BPD traits as well as diagnosed depression. We have seen each other infrequently over the years but my ex has lurched from one crisis to another culminating in a suicide attempt some months ago after I tried to walk away from the r/s. I have been given some solid advice on here about how to deal with this situation. With a bit of distance and some detachment on my part, I think I have been able to show more compassion towards her.

One of the things that connected us was giving up drinking. I have managed long term sobriety but my ex has relapsed - after 10 years of sobriety. She has now been sober again for over a year and the reason i have come back on here is because on Sunday she was threatening to drink again. She told me that she feels she has no future and feels like she is 'dying' in her home environment. One thing that I have learnt from my communication with her is that this does not necessarily constitute a crisis. She often says things like this when she is bored or upset in some way.

I had much internal debate about whether to remain friends on FB after constantly deleting her, but acting on advice received here, I have kept her on my FB now since the last time I shared. The result is that trust on her part has been restored and I have made no demands on her whatsoever. I have simply been there for her when she needs to talk. I actually think seeing everything I am up to on FB triggered her loneliness again and led to her threatening to drink again. I responded with loving words and support.

I have completely changed my attitude towards my ex. It was pointed out to me on here that she is not capable of sustaining an intense r/s and I have stopped making demands on her. She intimated to me yesterday that she is now 'being let off the leash' by her husband - who has probably been keeping a close eye on her since her suicide attempt. I think this is code for she wants to meet up. So this is why I am sharing on here again. It has become clear that she needs me in her life. It is also clear because I have behaved with calmness and understanding towards her, she trusts me again. She may even be wanting intimacy - I don't know.

I am concerned that if we meet and sleep together again, it will trigger my whole sexual obsessiveness again towards her. It is clear that she is in no position to sustain an intense r/s - come to that neither am I and the peace and calm of the last 4-5 months has been as welcome to me as it has been to her. I have been banging on here about how much I love this woman - and I think the way I have been with her the last month or so is showing genuine love and compassion ie being selfless and understanding of her mental health. I do want to see her again. I do want to hold her in my arms but what good can come of it? We are both married.

[takingandsending]

RomanticFool,

Sounds like you provided a grounded place to see and validate your ex lover for what she is going through. Good work. Having distance and space from the rollercoaster gives us a chance to reflect and with clearer seeing, have compassion for the illness and all the damage it creates within people suffering from it and living with someone that has BPD.

You need to do the same thing for yourself. Can you simply see your own needs and wants and validate them without judgment? Can you stay grounded for yourself, recognize that what you are drawn to may not be healthy for you and try to have compassion for yourself recycling into this over the years? You could see what a gift it was for your ex lover when you did so. What might it be for you?

I think, if we can see our own motivations clearly, without story, without judging ourselves, we can start to create the space not to have to react but to choose what is right for us v. what causes us harm.

[babyducks]

Hi RF

With a bit of distance and some detachment on my part, I think I have been able to show more compassion towards her.

That sounds like good news.    Nice job.       Dialing down the level of reactivity and volatility is better for both of you.   It sounds like you are at Step 2 in the box on the right     Gaining some thinking space.

It has become clear that she needs me in her life.

I noticed this in what you wrote.   And thought it was interesting.   What do you think that means, that she needs you in her life?    As in an object to fulfill a need for her with little reciprocity?   As a rescuer?   Some one to soothe her turbulent emotions?

I found something intoxicating about being needed.   I found it took me a while to identify healthy levels of need and unhealthy needs.   For a while I over engaged in soothing my partners emotions.    Which only reinforced to her that she couldn't do it by herself.    I am not suggesting you are doing that.   I vividly recall how difficult it was to find balance in my r/s.   It took a while to develop some skills and validating without fixing.    It was a learning experience to understand that if there was to be balance I needed to be the emotional leader and provide it.

I am concerned that if we meet and sleep together again, it will trigger my whole sexual obsessiveness again towards her.

Good question.   

If it was me and I saw my now Ex Partner I would (still) be attracted to her.   There is a reason I was attracted to her in the first place.   And now with the incredibly history we have shared, the attraction is actually stronger.    Counter intuitive but that is how it works for me.

For me, there is a disconnect between 1) here is a person I care about deeply and 2) here is a person who it is very bad for me to spend time with.   And have them be the same person.   There is a tension between I care but we are exquisitely bad for each other, that requires a lot of energy for me to manage.

I see my Ex fairly regularly in public spaces. Not my idea, hers.    It tends to churn up a lot of mixed emotions for me.   And one of them for sure is the strong physical attraction I feel for her.    If I am tired or overwhelmed my resilience to that attraction tends to be lower.    And yet it is a fair question to ask 'what good can possibly come of this?'    Convincing myself that I should stand back from those feelings and let them pass through me with out acting on them has been the work of some months.

What convinced me was finally finally understanding the risks involved in acting on my emotions.   The risks to both her and I.    You describe your lover as struggling with sobriety and suicidal ideation.    That's a lot.    What's the risk to her if you 1) meet up and 2) sleep together.    You describe yourself as obsessive and in other posts hurt and wounded by past recycles.    What's the risk to your sense of peace and calm?   

I read a lot about her in your post.  What she wants and needs, or perhaps I should say what you believe she wants and needs.    And little about what you want and need.    So I am wondering, what do you think is the best thing for you?   Seeing her or not.

'ducks

[RomanticFool]

Hi babyducks and takingandsending,

You both seem to be asking the same question ie what do I want? In all honesty, I feel my wants are detrimental to my ex's health. In fact Skip administered some tough love in getting me to see this. I am caught in a 'mobius strip.' If I pursue my own needs, then she suffers. If I ignore my own needs and focus on her, then i guess I become more co-dependent. So the question is, which way do I go?

The way my ex tells it she is a virtual prisoner in her home with her husband keeping tabs on her. This situation began to irritate me in the past and my strategy was to up the emotional ante and try to get her to come over to my side of the fence. This failed miserably and was the reason we both ended up in utter despair. On some days, I believe she wants me as a soother in her life without making much of a commitment in return and on others I think she loves me as much as she is able to. She tells me that she does still love me, which means she is trusting me again.

When I walked away from the r/s some 5 months ago, I wanted the pain to stop. I suffered terribly knowing that I had walked away. However, it took her 5 weeks to acknowledge this is what happened with her 'pain in the silence' comment. I angrily rebuffed any attempt by her to make contact as I felt used and discarded. This strategy of penalising her with the same kind of anger and ST she had visited on me in the past, seemed to be part of the reason she tried to take her own life. I was playing a game of emotional chess with her. However, as Skip pointed out, she is weak. It backfired terribly and I was left feeling regretful and sorry for her.

So with this background in mind, if I say that what I want is a loving and equally passionate r/s, it is obvious that she is incapable of conducting that kind of r/s. I am never going to get the kind of r/s I want/need from her. Just last night (after having posted on here) I asked her if she wanted to meet up and she replied: 'Please stop saying that, I don't know how it would work.' I replied: 'I thought that is what you wanted.' She replied: 'It is but I don't know how I could make that happen.' I reminded her that she told me she had been 'Let off the leash' by her husband which is why I was asking. I then told her that I wasn't pushing and I don't want her to feel pressured and that I want her to feel calm and relaxed. I said I thought seeing me again might be good for her mental health at some point when she feels able. She thanked me and went to bed.

This indicates that we are (and always have been) on her timescale. It also indicates that however much she complains of emptiness and lack of a future, she has no intention of changing the circumstances of her life. So why am I still here? I could have stayed away and not taken her suicide attempt to heart. The answer is because I love her. I don't actually care at this point in time what kind of r/s we have, as long as she is alright and not suicidal. I am not going to push for a meeting. If it happens then I will see how we go and decide if sleeping together is a good idea. In all honesty any meeting seems a way off. I don't know if it would trigger my obsession again. The detachment that has occurred over the last few months has been pretty profound. I guess I have accepted her illness and that she is incapable of having the kind of r/s I would like. But I guess remaining in contact with her on some level makes me feel connected to her emotionally. That is where I am at right now.

[takingandsending]

RF,

What I am asking is what do you want your life to look like? You are married, but are not receiving fulfillment in that RS. You have had a long affair before and after marriage with a woman, but you haven't received fulfillment from that RS. Is it possible that you are seeking situations in which you will not be fulfilled? Is it possible that these situations are safe for you in some way? What would the perfect relationship look like for RF? Make a list. Then, what can either of your current partners, wife or ex gf, provide on that list? What did they once provide that they no longer do? What did they never do that is on your list of what you need?

We all have needs, but the way we go about trying to get them met determines how successful we are in having our needs met. For me, the unspoken needs that I choose to ignore, am afraid of having, are the ones that I am most desperate to have met and are the ones that I choose the least successful ways to try to get them met. So, that's my intent in asking what it is you want. Not specifically to say, hey, I want to have ex gf all to myself but she will never be strong enough for that. More like, I want to be wanted, I need to know I am safe, I need to be heard. When you look at your needs, and you look at your RS with your ex, it may paint a clearer picture of just how many or just how few of your needs are met, making it easier to make a decision about what is best action to take.

[Skip]

I am caught in a 'mobius strip.' If I pursue my own needs, then she suffers. If I ignore my own needs and focus on her, then i guess I become more co-dependent. So the question is, which way do I go?

Ah, the mobius... .



Maybe this is a better geometric... .



This four person relationship has a very small area of functional fulfillment. I suspect that your choice is to settle for this tiny little patch or compassionately divest yourself of two of the circles (her and her husband).

When I say compassionate, I mean for all parties and including you.

I think your affair is better in a sense but also just evolving through another cycle. You have been here before. I think your comments above are really telling you that you are learning that the sweet spot in this John Venn diagram is much smaller than you ever thought.

Is this what you want in life?

If not, the natural and compassionate play is to be you affair partners confidant and friend and push off any physical relationship for now. Don't make any pronouncements, to yourself or her, just push it off and focus on being her companion. See where that goes.

I suspect, that you will naturally drift away slowly (no drama) and you will start looking for other places to invest your emotional needs. Maybe your wife. Maybe a divorce and singledom.

That small little spot is not going to sustain you, RM. It's really more like that gold ring on a carousel that we reach for but never get.

You just started letting go of your obsession for the ring, and the Venn responded favorably to you. I think the more you let go of the obsession, you will find more fulfillment in love.

[RomanticFool]

What I am asking is what do you want your life to look like? You are married, but are not receiving fulfillment in that RS. You have had a long affair before and after marriage with a woman, but you haven't received fulfillment from that RS. Is it possible that you are seeking situations in which you will not be fulfilled?

This is a very important question. I suspect part of the answer lies in what I do for a living. I have thrown myself into work since I was in my 20's (I work in the arts) and it has been my raison d'etre for most of my life. When I was young I was looking for sex, as I got older I wanted the whole Hollywood romance thing (with lots of sex). Throw into the equation that I was raised as a Catholic and rejected the religion at 13. All of these things are relevant because I think I have suffered from a variation of the Madonna-whore complex. Except in my case, where I desire I sometimes become obsessed. The debate is whether that is love? In fact, it seems to me that most men have this issue. I read a book recently in which the author suggests that modern relationships are difficult because there is no mystery and a good sex life depends on mystery.

I think your comments above are really telling you that you are learning that the sweet spot in this John Venn diagram is much smaller than you ever thought.

I think my romantic/sexual idealism has been crushed by the r/s with my ex. The sweet spot has been and gone some years ago - that is what I have realised. Without wishing to be mean, what I am left with is a selfish, needy and unempathic depressive on my hands. Yet I still love her.

Is this what you want in life?

No. But there is something about her which has kept me going back for years. I don't even know what that is anymore.

If not, the natural and compassionate play is to be you affair partners confidant and friend and push off any physical relationship for now. Don't make any pronouncements, to yourself or her, just push it off and focus on being her companion. See where that goes.

That is exactly what we have become. I am no longer convinced that I actually want to see her. I am too scared of what it will stir up in me.

I suspect, that you will naturally drift away slowly (no drama) and you will start looking for other places to invest your emotional needs. Maybe your wife. Maybe a divorce and singledom.

It is looking like that is what will happen - but the ex will never let me out of her life. Even if we never meet, she will want connection. I think in her own way she loves me as much I love her. In that special BPD way - we all know the implication of that.

This all goes back to the central question of whether she is capable of love, doesn't it. I'd like to say that it really doesn't matter but it kind of does. Perhaps what I am holding on to still is that old forlorn hope that she will really become the person I have wanted all along. I know that is impossible and nuts to think like that.

That small little spot is not going to sustain you, RM. It's really more like that gold ring on a carousel that we reach for but never get.

I think that is what i am describing above. The unobtainable which I imbued with all of my own hopes and dreams. For the first time in this whole affair I feel a little sorry for myself without being angry at her.

Yet something is bugging me: when I distanced myself from her, in retaliation of her ST and distancing behaviour she would always vocalise her injury: 'There's no fool like an old fool' she told me on a number of occasions. She maintains that she tried to take her own life because I promised her that I would never walk away from her... .and yet she did exactly that to me all throughout the r/s. That dichotomy is probably the thing that keeps us caregivers coming back time and again. If they say the words that nons say then they must feel the same way we do (assuming I am a non). That is probably the answer to my own question above about why I keep coming back.

You just started letting go of your obsession for the ring, and the Venn responded favorably to you. I think the more you let go of the obsession, you will find more fulfillment in love.

Every single woman I have had a sexual obsession with has dumped me. Perhaps that is because I fixate on them because they are unavailable. I don't know. What I do know is that a few of my friends are exactly the same. We want what is unobtainable rather than what we can have easily.

However, in the case of my ex, I think it would have sustained for some time in a real r/s because I am so attracted to her. I guess that is something I will never know for sure.

To me love should always go hand in hand with great sex. Perhaps that in itself is the root cause of my issues.

[Sunfl0wer]

Skimming through some of your words here RF, gave me a mental image... .

Of a person trying to hold tight of an ice cube, getting disappointed that the ice cube is not remaining in it's original form, as it is melting from the warmth of your hands, but holding tighter in response, hoping the ice cube will take form again... .if maybe you form your hands a bit more square like, ... .maybe it will return.

[formflier]

I like sunflowers image.

I also wonder what your life would be like if you focused on meeting your needs.

Perhaps what others provide could be seen as "bonus".  When you go to others for a "need", it is inevitable there will be disappointment.

Instead of worrying about the ice cube that you melted... .look inward.  There is a need person in there you can nurture.

Thoughts?

FF

[takingandsending]

Perhaps what others provide could be seen as "bonus".  When you go to others for a "need", it is inevitable there will be disappointment.

I have been looking at this concept a bit differently lately. I think that the basis of intimacy in a relationship is being able to have and express needs with support and love (i.e. without judgments), but also without the expectation that your partner is responsible for those needs being met. We all have the human need for connection, for validation, for being seen and accepted. And we really can't work out those needs on our own - they require the dynamic of relationship to shine light on them and to resolve them. Seems like, in a well functioning relationship, a partner can support their partner in having needs, in making that okay, and  helping their partner in learning how those needs can be met. We can do that for one another in an RS, and I think that is true intimacy.

I have tried it the other way for many years, to not admit my needs for connection, validation, being seen and accepted. I felt it was my job to fill those needs myself, but what I was creating was a complex kind of self-denial. Which made me particularly susceptible to the love bombing, idealization of a pwBPD ... .my wife. I think what we are after is awareness of our needs, and some gentle treatment of ourselves having those needs.

If having needs and expressing them in an RS inevitably leads to disappointment, then what it the purpose of being in an RS in the first place? Again, I think the key is to loosen up our fear/hope/desire that someone else can resolve the needs that we do not want to admit we have in the first place. And a caring, loving partner who also want real intimacy can help us in that regard. And we can likewise help them. At least, that's where my thinking is circling right now.

Thoughts?

[RomanticFool]

Thank you all for your comments. The image of a melting ice cube is a good one for my r/s. We have been on better terms over the last month and I told her I loved her yesterday. No response. I think the ice cube has well and truly melted.

In a r/s I am not shy about vocalising my needs. I am usually very communicative about all aspects of a r/s with my significant other. In fact with my wife, we have discussed intimacy and the lack of a sex life and I almost didn't get married because of it. In fact, I shouldn't have got married probably but I didn't want to lose the r/s with my now wife. I think that was probably the right decision back then, because we both intended on working on the r/s and fulfilled needs in each other in many different areas.

When my ex married lover came on the scene the chances of revamping my sex life with my wife completely disappeared and I put all of my sexual energy into that r/s. It was wonderful to feel that somebody wanted me sexually and emotionally in the way that I wanted them. In fact I was deluding myself with the lover, because she has never been sexual with me other than when we are actually having sex. She did do a very mild version of love-bombing at the beginning but I knew at the time and I know now, that I was driving the intensity of the r/s. So the way I see it now is that I decided to go down this road of fantasy that a woman who has just recycled me, who never had any intention of leaving her marriage/family and knew that I had just got married, clearly felt safe to instigate me as her affair partner. That is what is as clear as day to me now and I went into denial around that truth at my peril.

In fact I am a very good reader of human behaviour but I was blinded by my own desires for great sex and intimacy with an extremely attractive woman. I don't beat myself up about that, who wouldn't want those things? But instead of marrying a woman with whom those needs weren't being met and then compounding that by entering into an affair, had I been as healthy then as perhaps I am becoming now, I would not have allowed myself to get into my current situation. Regarding my wife, there were also financial issues; by the time we decided to get married she was already living with me and undoing all of that would have created hardship for us both and I care enough about her that I did not want to see her suffer - so here we are.

I don't know what comes next. The r/s with the ex is over and I am just proving that to myself on a daily basis. She is like a ghost in my life. I don't know what she is doing most of the time and my suspicion is there are others in her life, though I may be wrong about that. What is clear to me is that she is not keen on rekindling any passion with me. In fact she is probably not able to due to her mental health issues. As far as my wife is concerned, we have been together for 11 years and married for 6 years. She is my partner and fulfils many needs except sexual intimacy. We have talked about it and I will continue to do so. At this stage I don't know how to rectify that situation.

[formflier]

Hey man... .I'm on your side... .we all are, as you try to sort through relationships in your life.

When you said that you loved your pwBPD... .had she said it first?  I get the idea that she did not, but don't want to make any assumptions.

Let's stick with the analogy about an ice cube.

Making such strong expressions of love and being the first one to do so, over and over, is like taking a blowtorch to whatever ice remains... .it will melt and be gone.

Said another way... .it's likely smothering and scary for her.


If you read many of my threads... I try to push people "to the big picture"... .which is many times bigger than the relationship.  The goal is to get people to see and reflect on a life THEY HAVE BUILT... .which is sometimes very unbalanced.

I was blinded by my own desires for great sex and intimacy with an extremely attractive woman. I don't beat myself up about that, who wouldn't want those things?  

One thing I have noticed in your threads.  You can get to the heart of your issues with "pinpoint accuracy" and then proceed to let yourself off the hook.

I see lots of talk about "needs"... .I don't remember any talk of things you did that were your "responsibilities".

What if your "needs" became "desires"?  

What if you made an affirmative choice about what actions you take for your desires in YOUR life... .and owned that choice... .and were authentic with those in your life that are affected by your choices?

There are many guys on here that are "polyamorous" and have been somewhat successful.  There are those that have tried it... .and figured it wasn't for them.

The thing that seems to matter is that all involved were open and real with each other.

Last thought:  I'm less interested in which choice you make (continue chasing affair or return to wife) than I am in you owning... .vice justifying... the choices in your life.

Who wouldn't want to own choices in their life?  

FF

[RomanticFool]

Hi FF,

One thing I have noticed in your threads.  You can get to the heart of your issues with "pinpoint accuracy" and then proceed to let yourself off the hook.

I see lots of talk about "needs"... .I don't remember any talk of things you did that were your "responsibilities".

What if your "needs" became "desires"?  

I don't think coming on here and being honest about my feelings and needs/desires is at odds with facing up to my responsibilities. In fact if you read many of my previous posts you will see that my responsibilities towards my wife weigh heavily on me. Yet the fact is, my needs for physical intimacy are not being met and it is my responsibility that I got married when that situation was not resolved.

This became compounded by my affair partner coming into my life. I gave in to my needs/desires because here was a woman I had loved and had a powerful attraction to. I justified it in my mind by saying that we were both married and therefore both have unfulfilled needs. Was this selfish? Yes. Was it something I shouldn't have done? Yes. Do I regret it? No.

That is the truth and I know many people will be irritated by my self justification and lack of morality around this issue but I cannot lie, I treasure the moments I have spent with my affair partner. Contrary to what you are saying, I am not letting myself off the hook by saying 'what man would resist that?' because I am aware of my own desires/needs leading me to be unfaithful. Perhaps if my affair partner was of better mental health we would now be together. Or perhaps the r/s would now be over and like most non affairs we would have drifted apart. Or she would have distanced herself. However, because she is a pwBPD it has changed everything and complicated an already complex situation. So just to be clear; I take absolute responsibility for every choice I have made and I don't regret any of them. I don't regret getting married and I don't regret starting the affair with my ex. I am sorry if that upsets people but that is how I feel.

So considering the morality of the situation for a moment, my choice should be to end the affair and work on my marriage. That is as clear as day. However, my affair partner has already tried to kill herself this year and I am worried she is close to trying it again. I don't want to abandon her at this point as she may be heading for another crisis. That is my choice and I own it.

Now my own emotions can change on a daily basis. I am often thrown into doubt and feel like ending the r/s with the ex dramatically and personally but how will that help her... or me? It won't. So I am on here trying to work through my issues while containing my own emorional volatility.

[RomanticFool]

FF,

Now to address the rest of your post.

Hey man... .I'm on your side... .we all are, as you try to sort through relationships in your life

I appreciate that. However, I have had quite a bit of judgement around this r/s on here, ranging from 'It makes me sick to my stomach' to comments around the morality of having an affair. Now while I accept that people are free to comment on here, I would question how those kinds of statements and observations can be of help. However, more recently I have had more considered conversations with people and less judgement and it has been very helpful indeed. That is why I am here. Obviously I am going to get advice that I find difficult to hear but I have drawn the line at personal attacks. So I thank you for your assertion that you are on my side ie helping to sort out the r/s. It is very much appreciated.

When you said that you loved your pwBPD... .had she said it first?  I get the idea that she did not, but don't want to make any assumptions.

Let's stick with the analogy about an ice cube.

Making such strong expressions of love and being the first one to do so, over and over, is like taking a blowtorch to whatever ice remains... .it will melt and be gone.

Said another way... .it's likely smothering and scary for her.

I have known for many years that she is not comfortable with declarations of love. There was a time when she was engaged in the intensity of the r/s where she would orchestrate the 'I love you' exchanges. However, going back to the ice analogy - if I am waiting for her to tell me she loves me in her present mindset hell will freeze over first. That is how far away we are from where we were. The very mention of meeting up has her running for the hills. The r/s is impossible to conduct via text with her BPD traits, mental health and complications. I am in an impossible situation, for which I take my share of the responsibility.

There are many guys on here that are "polyamorous" and have been somewhat successful.  There are those that have tried it... .and figured it wasn't for them.

The thing that seems to matter is that all involved were open and real with each other

I have no interest in being polyamorous. When I met my wife I thought I had found my life partner but then the woman who I once thought to be my soulmate came back into my life. It has been hellish to wade through all of this, complicated by mental health issues (my own included) and now I am coming out the other side a wiser and perhaps stronger person. That is how I see it.

[formflier]

So considering the morality of the situation for a moment, my choice should be to end the affair and work on my marriage. That is as clear as day. However, my affair partner has already tried to kill herself this year and I am worried she is close to trying it again. I don't want to abandon her at this point as she may be heading for another crisis. That is my choice and I own it.
 

It appears you "see" the situation and you are owning your choice to be responsible for a person... .that it doesn't seem to me that you "should be" responsible for (or to)...

Think about the differences in being "responsible for" something

and

being "responsible to" someone

Big breath... .big hug... .    Remember... .I am on your side.

Should you continue to attempt to play a role in steering your partner away from suicide... .you must learn to stop invalidating her

I've looked across several of your threads, and it doesn't appear to me that you understand the "power of invalidation".

Separate issue: 

Taking a big picture look at your life, I would encourage you to list out people you are "responsible for" and "responsible to".  Then list out the amount of "emotional energy" you are putting behind those responsibilities.

If you are satisfied with your choices... .own them and move forward.

If you are not satisfied... .make changes...

Last thought:  Language matters.  Many times it reveals our thought processes, which influences our choices.

Be conscious of your own thinking where you say "this came back in my life" and be deliberate about evaluating if that is accurate... .or if you are somewhat "letting yourself off the hook" because the reality is that "I allowed this back in my life".

At the end of the day I want you to do things in your life because YOU decided not because you "had to do it" because someone else would do xyz.  Even if "xyz" included someone else doing something horrible, like killing themselves.

This is hard stuff... .

FF

[RomanticFool]

t appears you "see" the situation and you are owning your choice to be responsible for a person... .that it doesn't seem to me that you "should be" responsible for (or to)...

Think about the differences in being "responsible for" something

and

being "responsible to" someone

I am not responsible for my ex. I owe her the same thing I owe any human being - a duty of care and compassion. I am trying to exercise that - very badly - and doing my best to keep my own needs and desires out of it - very badly but trying.

Should you continue to attempt to play a role in steering your partner away from suicide... .you must learn to stop invalidating her

I've looked across several of your threads, and it doesn't appear to me that you understand the "power of invalidation".

I haven't got the mental health issues she has got, but I do get enraged when people invalidate me, so I feel I have some kind of understanding regarding invalidation. I don't actually know when I am invalidating her, that is true. However, I am trying not to invalidate her feelings - today she reacted the way she did because I suggested meeting up and I don't think she can handle it emotionally.

Do you know she checks on WhatsApp to see if I have left messages throughout the day - at least that is what she has told me. There is something about me that she is drawn to. I believe in her own way she loves me - as far as she is capable of - she also depends on me to some degree. I am trying to reconcile myself to how best to deal with this.

Taking a big picture look at your life, I would encourage you to list out people you are "responsible for" and "responsible to".  Then list out the amount of "emotional energy" you are putting behind those responsibilities. If you are satisfied with your choices... .own them and move forward.

If you are not satisfied... .make changes...

I feel responsible for my father and I expend the correct amount of energy looking out for him. Also my wife. I tried to address the problem of having an affair earlier this year and my ex tried to kill herself. However, during that process there was some detachment and I am trying - in a very dysfunctional way - to keep her at arms length but often exploring the possibility of meeting again. Those two issues are the current problem. It is easier that my ex doesn't want to meet and the longer that goes on, despite my frustration, I have a chance of getting righteous again.

Last thought:  Language matters.  Many times it reveals our thought processes, which influences our choices.

Be conscious of your own thinking where you say "this came back in my life" and be deliberate about evaluating if that is accurate... .or if you are somewhat "letting yourself off the hook" because the reality is that "I allowed this back in my life".

It is clear this is a euphemism for I started an affair. However, I phrase it that way because she contacted me and asked to meet up. Therefore, it is accurate that I allowed her back into my life rather than proactively sought her out. I am comfortable with my phrasing in this case.

At the end of the day I want you to do things in your life because YOU decided not because you "had to do it" because someone else would do xyz.  Even if "xyz" included someone else doing something horrible, like killing themselves.

In this case I have decided to look out for her. Her BPD means that she feels empty and alone. I feel compassion for her. If I could stop wanting her sexually I think I could do her some good.

This is hard stuff... .Empathy Empathy

Agreed.

Big breath... .big hug... .Empathy Empathy Empathy  Remember... .I am on your side.

I am grateful for your time. I am emotionally volatile around this issue and I recognise it in myself. Fear is behind it. I don't want her to harm herself.

[Skip]

I have no interest in being polyamorous. When I met my wife I thought I had found my life partner but then the woman who I once thought to be my soulmate came back into my life. It has been hellish to wade through all of this, complicated by mental health issues (my own included) and now I am coming out the other side a wiser and perhaps stronger person. That is how I see it.

Having sex with a person outside the core relationship when the relationship is open or polyamorous is quite different from infidelity. There is no deception.

The monogamy in your marriage has been broken for more than a decade... .is it time to pull the shroud off and accept it?

This is a very hard question, I know.

We see infidelity here a lot. You are not alone.  At the same time we rarely see it run in parallel with a marriage for 14 years and with a partner that preceded the marriage.

I'm not questioning your morality, RM. This is the elephant in the room.

I haven't got the mental health issues she has got, but I do get enraged when people invalidate me... .  I don't actually know when I am invalidating her, that is true.

Does this suggest anything to you?

You get enraged when invalidated - you get severely wounded.

You have a hard time seeing things as others see them. You affair partner was suicidal and getting medical care. You were consumed with invalidation and assumed she was cheating on the affair. Even when people pointed out that it was unlikely, you didn't take to it. Even after you found out what was going on, you have again made this accusation.

You have said the same of your wife. You think she would not be devastated finding out that you have been involved with someone else most of the marriage - that her whole married life has been a fraud. You have suggested that she might be cheating on you - although the idea of declaring an open marriage is not on the radar (I'm not recommending it, by the way).

You are at a hugely important juncture in your life. You are brave to lay out all your true feeling here - I think you really want to find a way forward. The reason I say that this is an important juncture is related to your age and the fact that this affair obsession his in a safe tepid holding pattern - it not going forward and its not crashing and panic city.

You are in a good place to take a hard look at where you are headed (which is not laying the foundation for a mature future) and make changes to yourself, your life, your integrity (hard to write that, but it needs to be said), and your future.

RM, you are on a path that leads to know where. The options for getting on a better path narrow every day.

One last thing. I (we all) respect you and your wiliness and braveness to listen.

[RomanticFool]

Skip,

So down to the nitty gritty. I am going to say the truth here. Probably never said it in such stark terms, but I need to lay it out.

Having sex with a person outside the core relationship when the relationship is open or polyamorous is quite different from infidelity. There is no deception. The monogamy in your marriage has been broken for more than a decade... .is it time to pull the shroud off and accept it? This is a very hard question, I know.

The idea of a polyamorous r/s is an anathema to my romantic idealism. I had no intention of having an affair when I got married - but it became clear quickly that sex was not going to be instigated. We both got swept up in the idea of planning a wedding and the big day - but we also wanted to make a commitment to each other. I had brought up several times that we hadn't had sex for about 2 years at that point and perhaps I should not have got married. Possibly it was people pleasing - or I liked the idea of having this wonderful person in my life forever. All of that applies. What I don't want is to be wondering who she is sleeping with whatever issues we may have. I am not emotionally or mentally cut out for a polyamorous r/s. My insecurities are too ingrained. I understand the paradox.

We see infidelity here a lot. You are not alone.  At the same time we rarely see it run in parallel with a marriage for 14 years and with a partner that preceded the marriage. I'm not questioning your morality, RM. This is the elephant in the room.

It has gone on way too long I agree. But it isn't as simple as leaving a partner. We are financially dependent on each other and to end the r/s would add insult to injury for her. I care about her wellbeing and how she fares in life.  If we break up, we would both most likely struggle financially for the rest of our lives. While I could probably deal with that, I don't feel it would be fair to inflict it on my wife who got married later in life and part of the deal for her is security. I would not only break her heart but put her through a terrible hardship. I'm not saying that it won't happen - the question is do I have the energy and strength to go through all of that?

Does this suggest anything to you?

You get enraged when invalidated - you get severely wounded.

You have a hard time seeing things as others see them. You affair partner was suicidal and getting medical care. You were consumed with invalidation and assumed she was cheating on the affair. Even when people pointed out that it was unlikely, you didn't take to it. Even after you found out what was going on, you have again made this accusation.

You have said the same of your wife. You think she would not be devastated finding out that you have been involved with someone else most of the marriage - that her whole married life has been a fraud. You have suggested that she might be cheating on you - although the idea of declaring an open marriage is not on the radar (I'm not recommending it, by the way).

I think you believe I have BPD or BPD traits. I really have no idea if I have or not. We discussed at an earlier juncture this possibility and revealed that many of the people on this site have these traits. I mentioned at the time that it is a bit like finding out you're a Replicant (referencing Blade Runner movie). I had a friend who had NPD and my friend describes her friend who has classic BPD presentation and both of these people were far more volatile and extreme than me. That is not to say I don't have a milder version of one of them. I am in a profession that attract Narcissistic types and certainly have abandonment issues and jealousy problems, though neither of these extreme. I guess it doesn't matter whether I do or not really, what matters is how I am going to proceed with my future.

You are at a hugely important juncture in your life. You are brave to lay out all your true feeling here - I think you really want to find a way forward. The reason I say that this is an important juncture is related to your age and the fact that this affair obsession his in a safe tepid holding pattern - it not going forward and its not crashing and panic city.

You are in a good place to take a hard look at where you are headed (which is not laying the foundation for a mature future) and make changes to yourself, your life, your integrity (hard to write that, but it needs to be said), and your future.

RM, you are on a path that leads to know where. The options for getting on a better path narrow every day.

I agree that I am at an important time in my life. I am 54 and the clock is ticking. It also makes any decision to split up from my wife that much more difficult.

I have often fantasised that if we are going to split up the way it would happen is that I would go to the states to follow my quest for work, as I have done a few times in the past. In this scenario I would get work and stay away and eventually we would break up due to distance and never seeing each other. That would be the easier, softer way. But in order for that to happen I would have to get a long term and lucrative job which would enable me to buy her out or soften her path out of the marriage, but that is extremely unlikely. I don't even know if I want my marriage to end. I am not in my 20's anymore and despite my constant references to needing a physical r/s with my ex, it seems less important with my wife.

Perhaps the real truth is that I am a moral coward. I don't want to face up to the mess I have made of my life because the upheaval may make both myself and my wife miserable and despite everything I have endured with the r/s with the ex, I have managed to keep it away from my wife's world and she is happy. I guess now that the detachment from the ex is continuing, I am no longer miserable. I like my wife's company and personality. There are so many things we share - and yet the physical magic isn't there. So there you have it. Laid out bare. The truth.

One last thing. I (we all) respect you and your wiliness and braveness to listen.

Thank you, that means alot to me. I don't mean to be difficult on here, it's just that it's too damn important not to speak my true mind. I don't know where I go from here, but without the help received here, I'd be much more confused, angry and impulsive. I thank you all for the valuable help.

[Skip]

It's good to lay it out.

To be clear, I don't think you should convert to an open relationship, I don't think you should leave your wife, I don't think you deserve to be abused or judged, and I don't think you have BPD.

1. I do think you have been living a corrupted life (based on your values, not mine) and you have been living it so long (more than a decade) that you have normalized it. In many way you are too far in and it is too hard to look in the mirror.

I once described you as using alcoholics logic. You agreed. What we didn't do is talk about how that is normally resolved. An alcoholic crashes and burns. You are very far down that path and your have been there long enough, you innate warning systems are dulled.

Well, right now, you are given a pause. Everything is calm. And you can look at who you are and start on the path to living the values that you hold.

Continuing to have relationships outside of your marriage is a ticking time bomb that will destroy your wife. You're kidding yourself to see it any other way or to minimize how devastating it is to a faithful loving women. Your values would say you need to man up and stop the affairs, end the marriage, or give her the opportunity to see others. Why am I beating you with this?  Because you have been blessed not to have this marriage explode and you can affect a complete and full recovery by just letting this dead affair slowly fade away and not getting into another one. But until you make that commitment, I sense that there will be another women or that the affair will cycle upward for a dew months, and all will be forgotten.

Man to man - step up. Do the right thing. Make a serious commitment let be just a friend to your affair partner and let that relationship slowly phase out (so that neither of you are traumatized) and make a very serious effort to rehabilitate your marriage. Above all, don't be the guy that comes back here and says... .wow, I blew a great marriage up.

2. For whatever reasons, stand back and recognize that you have a very fragile ego and when you take on an ego wound you become toxic - to yourself and to others. Part of that ego is blocking your ability to see how you are hurting others or to understand what they are going through in general - and this deepens the wound - and that deepens the toxicity.   This is hard stuff to accept because, in and of its self, what I'm saying is ego wounding. I trust you will hear me though, because in all the time you have been here, I have respected and supported.


The first part of all of this is to dump all the well honed rationalizations on the floor and say to yourself, I'm abusing my wife, I'm abusing others, I'm abusing myself, and I alone can stop this, today.

This is a bit like they do in AA when they stand up in the room and confess. As you know, one of the biggest stumbling blocks for people wanting to stop or cut down on their drinking is the belief that doing so makes them an “alcoholic.”

The same is true here.

Take those values you hold dear, that yo have expressed here on many occasions, and live them.

[RomanticFool]

To be clear, I don't think you should convert to an open relationship, I don't think you should leave your wife, I don't think you deserve to be abused or judged, and I don't think you have BPD.

That is very clear. I feel the same way about all of the above, though I was starting to wonder about my mental health.

I do think you have been living a corrupted life (based on your values, not mine) and you have been living it so long (more than a decade) that you have normalized it. In many way you are too far in and it is too hard to look in the mirror.

I agree. It isn't the looking in the mirror that is difficult, I do that in AA - it is letting someone go who I feel addicted to and is complicated by a mental health issue in my affair partner. I have a feeling the affair would never have lasted this long otherwise. But that is conjecture. The fact is that I have opened myself up to this affair because it was available to me. I would not have gone looking for an affair that soon into my marriage. My affair partner was out of my life for the whole time before I was married or dating my wife. There was no overlap prior to the marriage. I was not looking for an affair but I took the opportunity that was presented.

I once described you as using alcoholics logic. You agreed. What we didn't do is talk about how that is normally resolved. An alcoholic crashes and burns. You are very far down that path and your have been there long enough, you innate warning systems are dulled.

I have crashed and burned many times due to this affair. I think my wife has so much going on in her own life that she hasn't fully noticed how the last few years have affected me. She puts it down to my profession and other concerns but I don't feel good about having cheated. Some of my friends who know about the affair have asked me why I am not more alarmed. I don't know the answer to that. I guess it's that I feel I am never going to get caught because my wife isn't looking and the affair partner lives 200 miles away. One of my former sponsors in AA suggests I have some kind of psychotic ability to distance myself but i think it is more that I have normalised the behaviour. I agree my warning systems are no longer triggered. Except I was concerned when my affair partner told me she had attempted suicide. That was something more severe than I could cope with. Truth is I haven't really coped with any of it. My mental health has suffered the last couple of years, especially when my ex was drinking and i had CBT counselling.

Well, right now, you are given a pause. Everything is calm. And you can look at who you are and start on the path to living the values that you hold.

Continuing to have relationships outside of your marriage is a ticking time bomb that will destroy your wife. You're kidding yourself to see it any other way or to minimize how devastating it is to a faithful loving women. Your values would say you need to man up and stop the affairs, end the marriage, or give her the opportunity to see others. Why am I beating you with this?  Because you have been blessed not to have this marriage explode and you can affect a complete and full recovery by just letting this dead affair slowly fade away and not getting into another one. But until you make that commitment, I sense that there will be another women or that the affair will cycle upward for a dew months, and all will be forgotten.

I am not going to embark on another affair. My ex and I had a r/s in the past and I always had a powerful attraction to her. It went beyond just having sex. I was in love with her many years before. There won't be other women. My ex is clearly not well and way way beyond wanting an affair. That makes me feel sad and there is a sense of loss but there is no going back now. Too much damage has been done. The affair is slowly fading away. Despite my futile attempts to get her to see me, we both know it's over. She has never really been committed to a r/s with me anyway. I have been trying to keep it alive and keep the fantasy going, but she has a family. I have been there for her to make her feel good. Whatever she feels for me is not to do with wanting a loving r/s. That much I am certain about.

Man to man - step up. Do the right thing. Make a serious commitment let be just a friend to your affair partner and let that relationship slowly phase out (so that neither of you are traumatized) and make a very serious effort to rehabilitate your marriage. Above all, don't be the guy that comes back here and says... .wow, I blew a great marriage up.

As I said above, the affair is doing exactly that. I need to work on my sex life with my wife to save our marriage. There is an issue because we sleep in separate rooms and it is partly her issues too but I do think it is salvageable. But we both have to work on it and we are both aware that we need to. I don't want to blow my marriage up but we do need to face our problems together. My wife has severe abandonment issues because her father left when she was young. So when our sex life stopped she went into denial and became a sexual anorexic. That is the issue we have to get over. There is fear around rekindling physical intimacy.

2. For whatever reasons, stand back and recognize that you have a very fragile ego and when you take on an ego wound you become toxic - to yourself and to others. Part of that ego is blocking your ability to see how you are hurting others or to understand what they are going through in general - and this deepens the wound - and that deepens the toxicity.   This is hard stuff to accept because, in and of its self, what I'm saying is ego wounding. I trust you will hear me though, because in all the time you have been here, I have respected and supported.

I think this is a self esteem issue. I am not good at dealing with rejection in a r/s for whatever reason. Call it what you want: middle child syndrome or narcissistic tendencies, I am aware there is a wound in me. We have discussed becoming empathy impaired when aroused and perhaps I need therapy to get to the bottom of it. If you have any further insight I'd be glad to hear it.

The first part of all of this is to dump all the well honed rationalizations on the floor and say to yourself, I'm abusing my wife, I'm abusing others, I'm abusing myself, and I alone can stop this, today.

This is a bit like they do in AA when they stand up in the room and confess. As you know, one of the biggest stumbling blocks for people wanting to stop or cut down on their drinking is the belief that doing so makes them an “alcoholic.”

The same is true here.

Take those values you hold dear, that yo have expressed here on many occasions, and live them.

When I decided to get married I intended on living my life according to my values. However, I opened my door to a rather beautiful femme fatale and here we are. I think it is exactly the same mechanism as the drink, but in truth this has been much much harder to hand over.

Today has been a very revealing day. I need some time to digest it all and deal with my emotions around all of this.

Thank you for your response. It has been profound and revealing to me.