Their dad is still in my life and mentions getting back together - should I?

[momtara]

*confidential, of course*

Hello all. I could really use some direction.

I'm not sure which category to post this in. Since my ex husband and I are co-parenting, maybe other co-parents will understand this issue best, but I'm not sure. I used to post a lot in "divorce and custody" but finally, two years after our divorce, we got a good parent coordinator a year ago and things have calmed way down. If this needs to be moved to a diff section, so be it - just not sure.

Here's the story and why I need your help making a decision.

My ex-husb never sounds as bad as some of the others I hear about. I'm pretty sure he has borderline pers disorder. I met him at 35. He would be very sweet and shy like me, and sort of funny. We had a lot of important things in common, but when he got triggered by something - I didn't always know what - he'd be furious, verbally abusive, and controlling for about three days. Then it would break and he'd be normal for a couple of weeks. Then he'd go on another binge of constant verbal abuse. He would insult me and then say the usual cover-up things, "I never said that." He also would gaslight me. One time he was angry that I never pushed the milk back far enough in the refrigerator, so he spilled it all over the floor while I was at work to prove a point, then said I did it (I knew it was him in this case, but there were other things I couldn't prove.) We had two small children and things got worse - he would say I couldn't take them to the park because it was 'too cold' out when it was 60 degrees out. He'd cancel vacation plans last-minute. He made me pledge to only see my parents twice a year. I tiptoed around for a year or two. Then one weekend I stood up to him, told him I was taking the kids to the park, told him to stop yelling at me for "using too much toilet paper" or whatever this rant of the day was. He had a day-long meltdown. He claimed I threw our toddler into a door, and then he took him to the ER at the local hospital (!) We went home and then he threatened to take him to child services in the morning. Also claimed he gave him antibiotics for his strep throat he was getting better from, even though he hadn't. Then he called the police and said my parents had threatened to kill him. He yelled at me all night until 5 a.m. on a Monday morning. Then he went to work. Finally I took the kids to day care and called a lawyer and went from there. We had seen marriage counselors for years but he always covered up for himself. He also had lied and said he was seeing a shrink for an 'anxiety disorder' but he never really did. Anyway, long story short, he got more mentally ill when I was deciding whether to divorce or just separate. It was only toward the end that he admitted he'd made up everything, said he had severe mental illness, would get help, was seeing a shrink etc. He came clean with his family and with me. He said he wanted to get better and maybe someday come home, if I'd have him. Sometimes he'd be ok for a few weeks during the divorce, then would get worse again. If he was bipolar and could be ok on medicine I would take him back, but to this day I'm still not sure he will really get better. He now lives an hour away and we've been fully divorced for 3 years. He takes the kids every other weekend.

So the reason for the post is... .recently he told me he may move across the country. He'll miss the kids, but he just feels better there, more relaxed. He just took a trip to the mountains and felt good out there. He's shy, not a drinker, cheater etc. I'm quiet myself, a nerdy, overanalyzing type, and I can't mesh with most people in a dating situation, but I got along so well with him when we met. But he does have this problem and there isn't really a cure for BPD. Until recently he was asking if someday maybe he could come back. I could never give him any hope because I didn't want to make a false promise and then change my mind. I'm still not sure I can trust him. Yet, it's been several years and I haven't liked anyone I've met (in a dating situation) and worry that I'll be alone forever and regret not giving him a last chance. It's not that I don't know how to be alone, just that it'd be nice NOT to be, especially since things were very good when he was not triggered. I'm taking care of the kids myself, rarely have adult conversations with anyone anymore. My relatives aren't around to help and most of my friends have their kids and their lives, and divorced mom friends run around like me and don't really have time to socialize.

My mom was mentally ill as well and I've never really had anyone in my life validating or helping me with major decisions, so that's part of I tend to question what I do a lot and worry that maybe later I'll look back and have regrets.

I always feel like a late bloomer and wish I'd done such and such differently in my life. Didn't even date until after college. So I don't want to make more mistakes.

I know the tendency here will be to say "Leave the jerk!" and I get that. Some things are unforgivable. And I think I'd be nervous for a long time if I told him maybe we can see more of each other again. But in some ways maybe I'd be happy for at least a little while. I just wonder if there's a chance I'm making a mistake by letting him go? I need some rational thoughts and perspectives on this. Thanks.

I should also mention that like I said, he was still occasionally doing things to frustrate me until about a year ago. He might have gotten on the right medicine. He sees a shrink every two weeks and I know they were trying to find the right meds. He does hold down a regular job that he's good at, and he deals with the public.

I wish I had a crystal ball. But I don't. This situation is hard to predict.

[Turkish]

Hi momtara,

Overall,  what I get from what you wrote are two main things: that you are still fond of him and miss him,  and that you have hope... .

That being said,  the story about the police I find unbelievable, though I believe it. 

This isn't the Improving or the Saving boards (no "run" messages). Given that,  I'll admit my bias: No.

I've gone through this recently,  and may be again,  since my ex hasn't worn her wedding ring in the last two weeks I've seen her,  after wearing it and saying she wanted to try and give her marriage another go... .a week after she asked to come back to my home (poor husband never knew she asked me that).

It was a simple text after we went hiking, went out to breakfast, 
and we watched a movie in my home afterwards. Basically: "can I please come back? I can't be without my kids anymore."

Over three years after she left me for (and married) her affair partner (neglecting the kids plenty,  though she's gotten a lot better in that regard). A few of my friends told me she would do this.  I didn't believe them,  then she did.  Unbelievable.


I expect her to ask again. Not 3 hours after dropping off the kids for the weekend,  D5 wanted me to send a pic to her mom.  "Please tell her that I miss her and S7 more." True, but the kids aren't responsible for her feelings.  I didn't tell them that.  D5 was happy I sent the pic.  No need to burden them with mom's emotions. That may seem cynical or mean of I told that story with no background,  but it's a pattern.  Their mom told me she almost started crying when she dropped them off, she missed them so.  She'll get them back Monday morning,  taking them on a 4 day vacation.

I've told her numerous times that she was free to call them once a day when they were with me.  I got tired of telling her this.  She hardly every does. Last week,  she did,  but she told me,  "I had a feeling like D5 was in danger and I wanted to call to see if she was OK." It wasn't about our daughter (a call to say "hi", but about mommy's emotional needs.  The call went ok,  the kids were distracted and oblivious,  but this is of concern.  Protect the kids. 


I'm lonely like I see you are, though you are dealing with more being a single parent more than half the time.  I can't relate to anybody.  I got a text from a former security guard at my work,  a single mom 15 years my junior, wanting a play date with us for her daughter. She got my number from the company call up before she was laid off,  and my boundaries suck. Another woman I've met at the park with her kid recently started hugging me hello and goodbye. She wears a wedding ring.  Not sure what to make of it.  Her son and my kids get along. She,  however,  wears a wedding ring.  I don't know what to make of this.  She's also far younger than I am ?

Anyway, I'd consider what you would get out of this.  It may seem mean or selfish, but what I really wanted to say to my ex was,  "what do I get out of this?" If she were to move back in. 

I could think that it would be financially beneficial to both of us.  The kids would love it... .but what would the long term benefits be for all of us? My ex is aware of a lot of things now,  but she's still the same person.  I could say the same thing of myself.  What about you?

In my opinion,  the kids shouldn't be the deciding factor.  As I responded to my ex's text,  "the kids will be grown one day.  Then what?" Then us,  alone with each other. 

[momtara]

Hi Turkish. Thanks for the response. Maybe  should post on the 'leaving' or saving boards later. It sounds like your ex still displays the scary and confusing behavior on and off. Mine has been consistently getting better in the last year, but what you said reminds me that I only see him for a fraction of the time, and it's not enough to judge. He probably would be on a downslide if I saw him more. It doesn't sound like your ex-wife goes to enough counseling or does enough to be stable.

Geez, it's all so confusing. Your kids are lucky you have them as a steady, moderating influence.

(The woman w/the wedding ring hugging you - maybe she's contemplating separation? Who knows. I'm not into dating people still married. I have enough confusion!)

[GaGrl]

Momtara, your comment that you see him only for limited interactions is tellung. As to what life could be with him on a 24 hour basis... .read your first paragraphs again. This is GOD deregulation with no guarantee that meds will 100% control it.

[HopefulDad]

I think a good rule of thumb when deciding to either stay with or take back a pwBPD is the following:

"Are you willing to radically accept the way they are when at their worst?  If so, then go for it*.  If not, then save yourself the trouble."

While you may see improvements in your pwBPD with changes in treatment (medication and/or therapy), you cannot assume these changes will be permanent or always taking steps towards the better.  PwBPD often regress, may times back to square one.  If you don't understand this and take someone back who showed improvement only to regress later, you've fallen for the bait-and-switch and have only yourself to blame.

Think about this carefully when considering your decision and good luck in no matter what that decision is.



* Of course this means setting and enforcing boundaries on your part, along with implementing the other tools as espoused on this site.  You don't have to be a punching bag, proverbial or literal.

[livednlearned]

hi momtara  

I can see how it would be hard, knowing that he is getting better, seeing a shrink, and taking his medications.

My partner's D20 is similar to how you describe your ex. D20 is diagnosed and medicated for bipolar, and seems to have (at the very least) BPD traits. She is socially awkward, and also sweet and shy. She does well at school and I think she is going to be good at her job (special education teacher). Her tendency is to internalize, so raging isn't really a problem. Even so, she can be very passive-aggressive and has experienced psychosis. I see what looks like disassociation in her and she has boat loads of learned helplessness.

I see D20 taking care of herself and working so hard. Harder than many people who are normal, or healthy, for that matter. She takes medication and does CBT.

Watching her grow is encouraging and I admire her so much for what she is trying to do. She really wants to feel better.

At the same time, she is exhausting to live with (she stays with us for the summer) and when she is here, even at her best, I have to dial my relationship skills to 10 every day. I am vigilant about boundaries with her. I accept that there will be no reciprocity in our relationship, it is always going to be about her. She requires constant validation and recognition of her competence so that she can interact with me as an adult. Without that, she regresses to a small child and her chronic neediness becomes overwhelming to people around her.

I look at my life with her this way: Every day, I wake up and my cup is full. My job is to make sure my cup stays full and do whatever I need to maintain it. When my cup is full, I can care for D20 and have what is, to me, a high maintenance yet manageable relationship with her. To keep my cup full, I take breaks from her, especially when I'm tired or rundown. If she is emotionally aroused and dysregulating, I listen and validate, and encourage her to talk to her therapist or someone qualified to help. I do not rescue or save or fix. I coach, something that was challenging to learn how to do, especially as someone with codependent qualities.

Her dad, my SO, has a different experience. He is closer to her emotionally, and she triggers more often with him. That is probably something more likely to happen in a marital relationship, too. The more intimacy, the more emotional arousal. The more dysregulation.

About your situation -- something that came to mind: it sounds like your ex is taking care of himself by seeking out a place that is peaceful and relaxing. Most people with BPD struggle with interpersonal stress and having you and the kids live with him will probably not be peaceful and relaxing, just based on BPD challenges alone. Is it possible to follow him but not live together? If so, that may help you protect the kids and yourself when he dysregulates. It may also help to maintain the winning streak you have going right now where he does not suffer from a major dysregulation triggered by interpersonal stress.

It is hard to acknowledge that sometimes our loved ones stabilize because they are taking care of themselves, AND because we are not triggering them. I don't know if this is happening with your ex. It's probably good to consider it, at the very least.

Good luck to you

These are hard choices.
 

[momtara]

Thanks, Livednlearned and Hopeful Dad. I've leaned against not getting back together with him. I do think he's somewhat better because he avoids the daily stress of living with us. There is no crystal ball and no right decision - ultimately it's probably better not to get back with him but it's hard not to wonder sometimes. I may follow my shrink's advice and just keep seeing how it all plays out. That may mean he does leave and that's it. I may be alone forever. But at the worst of our relationship I was scared of him and the lies and what could happen, so maybe best not to put me in that position even if I have a little fear.

[Panda39]

Hi Momtara,

Remember what you know about BPD.  Go back and read your old posts.  I remember how much fear and anxiety you had leaving your marriage. Is getting back together worth what you went through to get out?

Has he received meaningful therapy? I hear your loneliness and the pull he has on you but is loneliness a good reason to walk back into a relationship that didn't work once already?

Could his talk of moving be FOG? Fear of him leaving, fear of loneliness, driving you back to him?

Be cautious and be thoughtful. If you can't make a decision then don't do anything, I like your Therapist's advice about letting things play out.

Panda39

[Waddams]

A few things stand out to me:

Their dad is still in my life and mentions getting back together - should I?

My opinion only here, and being given directly in response to a direct question - No you shouldn't.  Reading the history in your post, remembering your posts 3 years ago, etc.  He's not a healthy person, and making relationship decisions based on the potential of how good things could be if a person could only do this or that is a very bad idea.  That's the bargaining stage of grief in action right there.

I'm quiet myself, a nerdy, overanalyzing type, and I can't mesh with most people in a dating situation, but I got along so well with him when we met

... .it's been several years and I haven't liked anyone I've met (in a dating situation) and worry that I'll be alone forever and regret not giving him a last chance. It's not that I don't know how to be alone, just that it'd be nice NOT to be, especially since things were very good when he was not triggered. I'm taking care of the kids myself, rarely have adult conversations with anyone anymore. My relatives aren't around to help and most of my friends have their kids and their lives, and divorced mom friends run around like me and don't really have time to socialize.

Translation - I'm lonely, I feel isolated, and I'm afraid I can't find a new relationship because I'm don't have any free time for me, and I'm not good enough socially for anyone I do meet to want to stick.  In short, I'm scared I might not be able to do better than my ex- anyway.

Honestly, some counseling about this might be in order.  Saying that when things were good, they were really good - that's like saying it was fun riding on the Titanic before it struck the iceberg.  It's still not a ride you want to take if you could know the iceberg was coming ahead of time!  

I got some advise from someone a while back about how to cure not being able to mesh with people socially - stop worrying about interacting with them in a way they approve, and instead, start interacting with them in a way that makes you happy.  Interact in a way that you have fun.  Here's what will happen, you'll naturally be yourself, and people that are a good match for you will react well.  People that aren't, you'll see that too.  It turns into a filter, one that works quick.  It's not that bad match people are really bad, and it doesn't mean you're not good enough, it just means they're not your type and you can move on and focus on relationships with people that are good matches.

Next, as for dating and relationships - this might be a bit of a departure in thinking, but we're all reared on the Disney Fantasy Myth of meeting "the one", and that good relationships/dating is a rare thing.  I've come to believe that the belief that potential good dating prospects are rare is a bunch of bupkis.  Good dating partners, good intimate partners - they aren't rare.  They're actually quite common.  Acting like they're some rare, precious commodity, and thinking we might not ever find a good partner again, that's part of what keeps us deciding to stay with disordered partners.  The reality is staying with a disordered partner is what guarantees we WON'T get with a healthy partner.  When we choose to stay with a person that is messed up, abusive to us, and continually screwing up our lives, what we are really doing is signalling that we don't think we are worth better, or that we are high value enough to attract better.

My thinking these days is we all need to have a direction and purpose in life, beyond just raising the kids.  We need a mission for ourselves, and we need to be pursuing it.  We'll meet people along the way.  When one is a relationship prospect, the invitation is "This is my mission, you're invited to come along, but you won't take over the lead."  

At some point, you'll meet someone that's on the same mission, and who will want to pursue it together.  That's the person that you'll have the shared values and chemistry with to make it work long term and/or forever.  You can only find that person by interacting with everyone you meet in a way that YOU find fun/entertaining/satisfying.  :)on't try to entertain others, entertain yourself, and you'll draw out the people that are your "cup of tea".  

As for your ex-, you know who and what he is.  He's shown you in no uncertain terms.  Maybe he is genuinely getting better, but I think I've seen it said here and on other sites repeatedly that unhealthy people need to be single to heal.  Otherwise they revert and regress to old patterns when they have someone around to do that dance with again.  I also heard an expression recently in response to the typical "well, there's always blame to go around" or "it takes two to tango".  The response was "sometimes one person takes up the whole dance floor".  In cases involving pwPD, yeah we might not realize the dynamics and contribute to making things worse in our ignorance until we learn better, but pwPD take up most of the dance floor when it comes to the disordered relationship tango.  

If you feel bad for him, I understand that, but please remember that if he feels bad because of what he did, if he wants back, etc. and feels bad, you don't have to feel guilty for him.  Returning to that relationship because of FOG guarantees a bad ending.  I did that once myself.  It did not turn out well.  It turned out horrible.  I rationalized to myself why things would get better, why I should take her back, etc.  It was all a bunch of rationalizing and bargaining with myself because I didn't have the sense of worth for myself that I could do better.

I've got that now, and since I stopped worrying about attracting anyone, and just pursuing my mission, I've got a thousand fold increase in the quality of my relationships, including a young lady I've been seeing for about 4 months now who is about as healthy and caring woman I've ever met.  Even my S13 adores her, and he's never liked anyone I dated in the past!

I'll close my essay with this - it's clear you want better for yourself.  You've identified some issues that are holding you back.  You made it through a hard divorce, in a lot of ways, life is much better now.  You've got the foundation now to launch into a new season.  The next step is to address and change circumstances to remove those issues from holding you back, not go back to the bad relationship that put you where you are now.

[momtara]

that's like saying it was fun riding on the Titanic before it struck the iceberg.

LOL. Thanks, Waddams. I agree with a lot of this. Only thing I disagree with is that it's easier to find a good partner than we all think. That's probably true if you're a guy. Men and women are both complicated, but men seem to think being "nice" is a favor, and so even finding someone who genuinely seems like a nice person, who I'm not intimidated by, is hard. Once I've found some nice men, then the next step is seeing if we can have a goofy conversation. I'm guessing there's a richer buffet of single and divorced kind women than there is of men, but that's I guess a debate for another forum.

I think what makes me question myself so often really is that I've never had anyone on my side, helping me with decisions. Can't talk to my parents - mentally ill mother, distant father. There's only so much I can tell my friends. And yes, I have told friends about my ex, and of course none of them want me back with him... .which is probably right. My therapist, oddly, thinks he's not violent and probably would never really be, and just liked to do a lot of what he did for control. He thinks right now I'm in a good place. I'm divorced, I can date, I can see how it plays out. I guess I will. Speaking of which, haven't seen my shrink in months, so I guess I should go. Trying to save the $$.

I have fears of being 80 years old and looking back with regrets. I guess I'm just going to keep doing what I'm doing even if sometimes it feels pretty lonely.

[ForeverDad]

For the last few years I've gone to an amusement park with one goal... .I will ride Diamondback again.  With 230 foot rise, 215 foot initial drop, barber chair seating on platforms rather than cars, it's the smoothest scary roller coaster there.  It's only 3 minutes.  And of course I keep riding it.

Life with BPD is also a roller coaster, with erratic twists and turns, but the difference is that once you get back on it's very hard to get off again.  Best not to risk it, especially if the person isn't working on self to gain some level of recovery.

[momtara]

True.
As an update, he started acting nutty again last week. Not completely, but a bit. Just a reminder of what it's like. Ugh.