communicating feeling hurt?

[vanx]

This is my first time posting on the improving board. I have been on learning from the wounds for the majority of my time here. I still work with my ex and things have been a little tense at work, so she messaged me suggesting we meet up to talk. I weighed things, decided that could be beneficial, and accepted her offer.

She had a higher interest than I did discussing the issues of our interactions. At one point, she was remarking that if we were going to be friends (which is still pretty up in the air) she wanted me to be more honest, and essentially assertive with her. The thing is, when I tried to use my "I" statements in the past to let her know something hurt my feelings, she was pretty invalidating and told me I was inventing things that weren't there. So I have adjusted my expectations with her and just figure I will not get certain needs met or validation in a friendship with her, at least not with much consistency. I understand the difficulty she faces and I accept this reality.

I think I would like to try being friends with her because I do value the relationship, find her interesting to talk to, and do appreciate much of her perspective on things, even if it differs from mine, and even if it can be challenging to me at times.

I figure if I am accepting that there may not be reciprocity of respect and validation in the relationship at times, I simultaneously flex a few boundaries about what is tolerable treatment of me. After all, I have also worked to depersonalize some of her aggression. So if, for instance, I think she is done speaking and start to say something, only to have her snap irritably, "LET ME FINISH", well, it throws me off and hurts my feelings a bit, but the effort it would take and unpleasantness asserting my deserving to be treated with love and respect would just be more draining! Instead I validate myself and also say, "well, she is hurting and reacting to hurt. This is her issue to deal with. I am just letting it go". It works.

But I also think she has a point about honesty in friendship, and I do harbor some resentment about how she treated me during the breakup and how she snaps at me sometimes. Do you think it would be a better foundation for a potential friendship to express this to her? Would it be inappropriate to email something to her or write her a letter? That would work better for me to get my thoughts down if I were to express some of those feelings.

I guess it just seems to me that part of what I have to accept if I want to continue a friendship with her is that there isn't equal room for my needs, so why express them unless a boundary is REALLY crossed?

[livednlearned]

I also think she has a point about honesty in friendship, and I do harbor some resentment about how she treated me during the breakup and how she snaps at me sometimes. Do you think it would be a better foundation for a potential friendship to express this to her? Would it be inappropriate to email something to her or write her a letter? That would work better for me to get my thoughts down if I were to express some of those feelings.

I guess it just seems to me that part of what I have to accept if I want to continue a friendship with her is that there isn't equal room for my needs, so why express them unless a boundary is REALLY crossed?

I am wondering if what she is asking for is confidence more than honesty and assertiveness.

It sounds like being honest is subject to her rejection of what you say, and when you are assertive, she shuts you down.

Confidence (yours) would imply that she can behave the way she is without you being emotionally injured by her.

You are working on this, and at the same time still feel hurt by what she says or does.

What would you say in the email or letter? How do you think she would respond?

[vanx]

Ahhh ok I think I get it. Yes, that makes sense about confidence. She experiences discomfort having an effect on me because it makes her seem bad?  Man, that is really challenging. So in order to have a relationship with her, would I need to be in a place where I am not effected by her? It's the type of self improvement I strive to work on, but this case is extra demanding. I am not 100% zen. Ugh it hurts because I want to be more confident, but then, if none of us were insecure at times, how could we have compassion for each other? I know, I know.

I won't send any letter. I think you're right about her meaning confidence and not candor.

Thank you, this was really insightful for me.

[livednlearned]

She experiences discomfort having an effect on me because it makes her seem bad?

It could be less complicated than that... .a lot of women tend to be attracted to confidence.  

I can also imagine that a person who has hurt you wouldn't want to be reminded of that fact.

So in order to have a relationship with her, would I need to be in a place where I am not effected by her?

I'm not sure what it means to be not effected by her... .maybe a good check for yourself is to ask whether you are acting out of a place of confidence, or a place of need. She is probably not going to respond well to anything that comes across as neediness.

It reminds me of that saying that pretending to be courageous is the same as being courageous. I can see how that might apply to being confident.

if none of us were insecure at times, how could we have compassion for each other?

Do you mean vulnerable versus insecure? Vulnerability can be a source of confidence.

For example, it might feel vulnerable to tell her that you are still feeling some hurt over things that are about you, certainly raised during the breakup, but definitely your stuff. And that you are taking care of yourself and turning to friends for support. Not all of us heal at the same pace, and this is yours, for better or for worse.

That is vulnerable and confident. You express how you feel and don't expect her to make things better for you.

Versus insecurity or neediness. An example might be telling her how she hurt you, how you still feel she wronged you, implying she's supposed to make you feel better somehow, even though you're trying your best to get over her and knows she isn't responsible (which would just be confusing).

I hope that makes sense  

I don't think vulnerability would affect compassion... .if I'm understanding you correctly?

[vanx]

I didn't write what I was thinking about insecurity well. Well, it's only a personal opinion anyhow, but I meant that I believe the little flaws we dislike in ourselves actually make us lovable and are an opportunity to have compassion for others and say, "ah, I feel that way sometimes too."
In reality, that doesn't always work out with romantic relationships, for sure.
It's fair for people to lose attraction for lack of confidence. I get that. That could be all that happened, but I do think she rejected me for things about me she loathes about herself, so I wish that could have been grounds for relating I suppose. I guess whatever the reason it is what it is.
Well, I hope I am not coming across as needy. I do desire love and respect from her, but I don't expect it or ask for it.
She has apologized for things she said when she dumped me. It's mostly the present put downs that bother me. I am a bit sensitive about the needy word. I have done a lot of work in therapy to honor my needs and recognize that they are valid. I think when I tried to express how I felt in the past I was labeled as needy. I don't expect her to fix anything, but I do think she is responsible for her hurtful words and behavior. Of course I am responsible for taking care of my own self. I suppose I am struggling to see if there is more i can do to foster kind, effective communication between us. To her, I think vulnerability is neediness maybe?
It's tough, on one hand I don't want to have to
act more confident (though I respect the truth/reality of what you say). I want to be loved as I am the way my friends love me! But if that would help, I am willing to try!

Ag sorry to ramble. Your input has helped me process more, though I am struggling a bit. Thanks for writing!

[vanx]

Wait though, full disclosure I am sure ar times in the past with her I have been needy, when I felt I needed her so bad

[livednlearned]

I'm not fully up on what happened in your relationship, so take what I say with a grain of salt 

I believe the little flaws we dislike in ourselves actually make us lovable and are an opportunity to have compassion for others and say, "ah, I feel that way sometimes too."

Could this be intimacy and empathy?

I do think she rejected me for things about me she loathes about herself

That does seem to be a very BPD dynamic -- the compulsion to quit before getting fired, so to speak. And then blame the other person for it, because taking responsibility is almost a foreign concept.

I am a bit sensitive about the needy word. I have done a lot of work in therapy to honor my needs and recognize that they are valid.

Do you think getting our needs met and/or meeting our own needs is different than being needy? I hadn't thought of it until you raised this -- thank you for pushing me to look at this more closely. One is proactively taking charge of what we have control over to meet our needs, the other is expecting someone else to fix what is essentially ours?

Not that one would be more or less painful to manage than the other  

I am struggling to see if there is more i can do to foster kind, effective communication between us. To her, I think vulnerability is neediness maybe?

I don't know her, so can't speak to this... .the BPD people in my life are desperate for emotional leadership, even if their actions do not always suggest that's what they're asking for. When my own emotions are triggered, or challenging, that's not a productive time to engage because it seems to add to the turmoil, setting off a chain of reactivity. What might be ok in a regular relationship doesn't translate because her needs are so intense and all-consuming.

[vanx]

I'm not fully up on what happened in your relationship, so take what I say with a grain of salt   

Thanks, livednlearned! I am a bit of an emotional ball of energy the last few days--I really really appreciate you taking the time to reply to me. I am struggling internally, but your input is helping me process. Thank you!

Could this be intimacy and empathy?

It could be. I have these beliefs, but they are subject to change. I would like to be very careful which words I use, so yes, I will think more about this!

Do you think getting our needs met and/or meeting our own needs is different than being needy? I hadn't thought of it until you raised this -- thank you for pushing me to look at this more closely. One is proactively taking charge of what we have control over to meet our needs, the other is expecting someone else to fix what is essentially ours?

I like the way you put this and I will really make an effort to keep the way you have phrased this in mind. Yes, this puts into perspective that I am indeed expecting her to meet certain needs of mind. This reminds me that I need to meet them myself--it's a big thing I need to work on!

But I guess there are ways at the same time I like to be treated by people I care about. It's tough to let that go, but yes, I see that I have to. Thank you for reminding me of some of the important lessons for me in this to learn.

I don't know her, so can't speak to this... .the BPD people in my life are desperate for emotional leadership, even if their actions do not always suggest that's what they're asking for. When my own emotions are triggered, or challenging, that's not a productive time to engage because it seems to add to the turmoil, setting off a chain of reactivity. What might be ok in a regular relationship doesn't translate because her needs are so intense and all-consuming.

Ok, this makes sense and is something I am reminded of from the lessons section. In the moment I guess I sort of forget... .it's really hard not to respond (even non verbally) to what feels hurtful. I'll do my best and keep reading the lessons. I guess I may just not be the right kind of person she needs in her life, so maybe like you mentioned before, coming for a place of strength, that may be just to let her go. If I have more chances though, I'll keep trying. Anyhow, much appreciation for bearing with me through a challenging episode for me, and thank you so much for your help!