He's been recording me and recording his therapy sessions

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Not good. And I'm not happy. My H has been secretly recording me. He secretly recorded sessions with his P.

Arrggh.

Just venting. Don't really need anything. Keeps the anger and resolution fresh.

[toomanydogs]

Not good. And I'm not happy. My H has been secretly recording me. He secretly recorded sessions with his P.

Arrggh.

Just venting. Don't really need anything. Keeps the anger and resolution fresh.

[toomanydogs]

I posted this on Breakup Crises, but thought I'd let all of you know, as well:

My H has been secretly recording me going back months. He secretly recorded sessions with his P.

Arrggh.

Just venting. Don't really need anything. Keeps the anger and resolution fresh.

[formflier]

TMD,

I can certainly see how "being on the right board" for the subject is helpful... .I can also see that talking to "people that know you" is helpful as well.

Said another way... .I hope you stick around for a while as you sort this out.  I will try to look at other boards to provide support to you .

   

Please worry less about the recordings... .perhaps even celebrate the need for accuracy... .

Worry more about the "interpretation" of the recordings or the "interpretation" of the event being recorded.

Usually that will illuminate the "true issue" to those that may listen.

I say this as a guy that has lots of recordings of my wife.  Perhaps even hundreds of hours over several years.

Every so often you run into someone, usually a new professional, that a couple of recordings will help them quickly sort out "Reality". 

For instance, early on my Psychologist was a bit skeptical that my wife "was as bad" as I described.  A couple shocking recordings let my psychologist understand the dynamic that was actually happening (vice my biased view).

My Psychologist this "tried her hypothesis" on my wife during the few sessions she had with her... .and... .based on how my wife responded, my psychologist has a pretty good idea of "how her mind works... .or doesn't work".

So... .TMD... .back to your issue.  I doubt your hubby is using them for any sort of therapeutic purpose, although that would be helpful/hopeful to find that out.

You know your hubby best... .why do you think he did this?  Any idea if he has shown them to others?

Does your hubby's P know?

 

FF

[babyducks]

TMD,

I have never been covertly recorded.

I have been treated with this level of contempt, disdain and disrespect on other issues.

My understanding is that 38 states have the ‘one party consent’ clause.   Which means that an individual can record a conversation to which they are a party without telling the other parties.

I would still consider it an egregious breach of trust.

If I was in the comfort of my own home with a reasonable expectation of privacy and I was recorded, regardless of the reason, I would feel the relationship severed, irreparably, damaged.

That’s just me… you might feel differently.

A couple of weeks ago, we talked about the Karpman drama triangle.  Do you see any Karpman drama triangle in play here?   

If we still go by the three roles being
Persecutor – This is your fault.   You are not okay.  I will dominate, blame and tear down.   
Rescuer – You need my help.  You are not okay but I will fix you.  I am the pain reliever.   
And Victim-  I am not okay. I am powerless and thwarted.   Others are responsible.

The way for a Victim to exit the drama triangle is to become a problem solver….and that is not freaking easy.  For anyone.   I don’t think anyone does it ‘perfectly’, whatever that is.

The other way for a Victim to exit the drama triangle is to become a creator, to own the power to choose and respond.   To focus on outcomes.

I was occasionally the victim in my relationship.   Because some pretty stupid stuff happened in my relationship.  Especially at the end. Hopefully, I am not so arrogant as to pretend that the trial of my life does not reveal my flaws.   My experience is that lingering on the triangle is not a good place to be.    For me this is where I have to separate the feelings from the actions.  I can feel hurt, betrayed, fearful and devastated.   And I can act brave, bold and determined, within the limits of my ego strength or wherewithal on any given day.

What do you think?   Is there a way to turn from the hurt to it's remedy?

'ducks

[toomanydogs]

TMD,


I would still consider it an egregious breach of trust.

I do.

If I was in the comfort of my own home with a reasonable expectation of privacy and I was recorded, regardless of the reason, I would feel the relationship severed, irreparably, damaged.


That’s just me… you might feel differently.

I don't feel differently than you. The relationship was irreparably damaged before I discovered he'd been recording me, and it was due to the recording and voiceover he'd done of the teen aged girls. It was really more shaking of the head.

A couple of weeks ago, we talked about the Karpman drama triangle.  Do you see any Karpman drama triangle in play here?   

Absolutely. What I have done to get into creator/problem solver mode:
1) Reported the other behavior to the police, so I have a trail.
2) Contacted his P again, asking if we might be able to work together, acknowledging what I'll need to overcome.
3) Contacted security personnel to assess level of security in the house.
4) Looking into getting a personal protection dog. Already have numerous dogs, hence my moniker, but a dog is better than a gun, and I do feel threatened by this man.
5) Been working with my coach to examine what I've learned from this relationship and what I can carry forward.
6) Will see an attorney in a week (couldn't get in sooner) to advise me not on divorce but on staying safe and what I can bring to the table that I've discovered should my H file for divorce, which is looking quite likely.

Honestly, the recording really bugged me but didn't surprise me. I live in a one-party state; however, his using any recording in court is not an option based on precedent.

What do you think?   Is there a way to turn from the hurt to it's remedy?

'ducks

Ducks, I have a tendency to post on these boards when I'm venting and I don't finish my thoughts. I have been staying out of a victim role--truly--and have been focusing on how to stay safe when I think my H may be psychotic and his P isn't seeing it.

In addition to all the above, I have reached out to just about everyone I know, even peripherally, and asked that they pray for me or keep me in their thoughts if they don't pray and that I'm going through some hard times and need them.

Right now, I want red wine but I seem to be out. Dang.

Thank you for taking the time to respond. It is so helpful to me.

[toomanydogs]

TMD,

I can certainly see how "being on the right board" for the subject is helpful... .I can also see that talking to "people that know you" is helpful as well.

Said another way... .I hope you stick around for a while as you sort this out.  I will try to look at other boards to provide support to you .

   

Thank you, FF.

Please worry less about the recordings... .perhaps even celebrate the need for accuracy... .

My coach and also my security adviser told me the more information/evidence we have the better. I'm focusing on that.

You know your hubby best... .why do you think he did this?  Any idea if he has shown them to others?

I don't know the answer to either of these. I know he is obsessed with documenting his life. That could be part of it.

Does your hubby's P know?

No. I reached out to her via email this morning, acknowledging the hurdles I need to overcome to work with her and the regret that I have about the way the relationship unraveled. I haven't heard back yet.

 

FF

Thank you, FF. Your support and insight mean a lot to me, and each is quite helpful
TMD

[formflier]

should my H file for divorce, which is looking quite likely.

We'll know soon if he really is.  Usually these things are "bluffs" or used to "instill fear"... .to keep a partner off balance.


From where I sit... .if that is the goal... .to keep you thinking about it and off balance, it seems to be working.  I'm not saying you should ignore it... .I am saying you should be "prepared" to file divorce on him... .and for him to file on you.  Actually doing it is another matter.

I am saying you should examine how much time you are spending ruminating on the possibility of him divorcing you.  I would bet you would be shocked how much time you are actually spending on it.

   

Tough stuff... .this is the place to vent... solve problems... .do it all.  We are on your side!

FF

[babyducks]

Nice work TMD.   

I like the steps you are taking to move forward.   

If I could make a suggestion, and hey what I do know, I am only a font from the other side of the internet,  I might say it's okay to let us know more about how you feel.

because we know, in ways that your coach might not.

I know exactly how it feels to have a partner who I expected to spend the rest of my life with disappear and cut contact with no warning.

I know what it feels like to give up my home,... .my place of residence... .my freaking furniture... .because I was backed into a corner with few options.

I remember what it feels like to be curled up on the sofa in a fetal position, while a rage storm broke around me.    And getting up so sick to my stomach I thought I was going to throw up.

I remember trying to lay down to sleep,... .and being so wired that I tossed and turned for hours listening for the sound of the door knob.

Now I wouldn't wish that on anyone... .

but having gone through it I would wish the ability to share it.  because it helps.

The last thing my partner said to me,... .she called me to tell me I was an $$hole.   I said I thought I had done enough on this one occasion... .and that what I did sufficed.    She said "why is it always about you?'   and hung up.    she surfaced again 2 weeks later to tell me we were done and I didn't argue with her.  I let her go.

but you know that's a pretty weird conversation.   Not many people get how conflicted I was about it.  People here got it.   We can be a resource for venting.    For sharing emotions and for finding a way through those emotions.   we are a pretty unique collective.

what do you think?

'ducks

[formflier]

 I know he is obsessed with documenting his life. That could be part of it.
 

Again... .this is reading tea leaves.  We'll never know for sure... . But I also think you have your answer.  

Classic FF style... .look at big picture.  It's usually not about us... it's usually about the person doing something.  "Nons" should avoid personalizing whatever they are doing.

So... .my gut says it's not just "part of it"... .but it is "all of it".  I doubt he intended you to find the recordings... I doubt he is trying to send a message...

But... .we'll never know.

Also... .when I say don't "personalize" something... .don't hear "don't do anything about it."  

You ARE taking and planning to take reasonable steps for you... .   keep that up.

Since Ducks is on here... .I'll give credit to "the bucket analogy" where credit is due.  I think it applies here, specifically to communications with P.

Separate issues into buckets.  If you had it to do over again... I would recommend... .

1.  Communicate to P what you know about recordings and nothing else.

at an appropriate time

2.  Communicate with P about status of your relationship and/or desire to repair r/s.

Said another way... .don't muddle messages, focus on "main point".

 

FF

[formflier]

I'll double down on Ducks idea to write more about feelings.  Consider it journaling... .and sharing... at same time.

Certainly ducks has more direct experience with this particular type of disorder/behavior... .yet we all are generally unfazed by stories (such as your peeing in yard hubby)... .that would generally gobsmack other people.  It's a unique "club" or "clique" that we have here.

Honestly... .I remember reading about your hubby running around in yard and wondered how you processed that... how you "felt".  I also know it can sometimes be hard to explain... .because we kinda "normalize" things that shouldn't be normal, because we have to find a way to press on.  At other times the tears come, despair sets in... with a healthy does of "effe me... .what am I going to do".  And every thing in between.

Now... if you want to talk about feelings about secretly getting married in a barn... .I'm your guy for that... .   

I"m assuming you have a barn or shed for all the critters you have (and of which I'm envious)... .goats tend to have a way to lift your spirits... .hard to understand unless you have spent time around them.

And... .no use hiding it anymore... .we know what you've really been doing in the barn... .

FF

[toomanydogs]

So... .my gut says it's not just "part of it"... .but it is "all of it".  I doubt he intended you to find the recordings... I doubt he is trying to send a message...

But... .we'll never know.

Also... .when I say don't "personalize" something... .don't hear "don't do anything about it."  

I know, FF. My coach and my friends and my sisters all tell me: ":)on't personalize this. It has nothing to do with you and everything to do with him and his illness."

You ARE taking and planning to take reasonable steps for you... .   keep that up.

Thanks. I needed to reread this today; I've been having a hard time. I'm feeling abandoned and rejected and worried about my financial future.

Since Ducks is on here... .I'll give credit to "the bucket analogy" where credit is due.  I think it applies here, specifically to communications with P.

Separate issues into buckets.  If you had it to do over again... I would recommend... .

1.  Communicate to P what you know about recordings and nothing else.

at an appropriate time

I will do this once I meet with the attorney.

2.  Communicate with P about status of your relationship and/or desire to repair r/s.

I communicated with her this morning, and she advised I contact H directly about meeting with a marital counselor.
She was/is against the idea of meeting with H's prior T, who'd be my choice because he already knows the dynamics.
She offered to recommend a counselor. I told her I knew someone who both my H and I are comfortable with (not a therapist but a friend in the medical field) who could recommend someone.
And I ended with asking her if she were concerned about 1) H asking me to buy him legal pot for a party he wanted to have; 2) H buying pot illegally in Denver; and 3) H throwing away his sobriety pin.
Those actions, combined with his increased suspiciousness and hostility have concerned me. I let her know that previously, and she didn't answer, so I felt the need to ask her again.

[/quote]
Said another way... .don't muddle messages, focus on "main point".

 

FF
[/quote]

Thanks, FF. I'm feeling low today and every hug--be it virtual or in person -- is appreciated and needed. 

[toomanydogs]

Nice work TMD.   

I like the steps you are taking to move forward.   

If I could make a suggestion, and hey what I do know, I am only a font from the other side of the internet,  I might say it's okay to let us know more about how you feel.

because we know, in ways that your coach might not.

I know exactly how it feels to have a partner who I expected to spend the rest of my life with disappear and cut contact with no warning.

I know what it feels like to give up my home,... .my place of residence... .my freaking furniture... .because I was backed into a corner with few options.

I remember what it feels like to be curled up on the sofa in a fetal position, while a rage storm broke around me.    And getting up so sick to my stomach I thought I was going to throw up.

I remember trying to lay down to sleep,... .and being so wired that I tossed and turned for hours listening for the sound of the door knob.

Now I wouldn't wish that on anyone... .

but having gone through it I would wish the ability to share it.  because it helps.

The last thing my partner said to me,... .she called me to tell me I was an $$hole.   I said I thought I had done enough on this one occasion... .and that what I did sufficed.    She said "why is it always about you?'   and hung up.    she surfaced again 2 weeks later to tell me we were done and I didn't argue with her.  I let her go.

but you know that's a pretty weird conversation.   Not many people get how conflicted I was about it.  People here got it.   We can be a resource for venting.    For sharing emotions and for finding a way through those emotions.   we are a pretty unique collective.

what do you think?

'ducks

Hi 'ducks,
 I'm not sure I ever responded to this. My coach used to be my therapist, so she and I have a unique relationship, and I do vent with her; however, I'm not sure anyone other than those on this board really get what it feels like to be left the way I was left, or you were left.

And I'm not sure anyone other than those here can truly understand how terrifying that particular video Little C**** was because of how creepy he had filmed, hiding behind bushes in the guest house, and what completely did me in was the voiceover. I remembered that conversation. I remember my breathing when we were talking, how relaxed I felt. I remember thinking, hey, maybe this is going to work out. Maybe we'll be able to move forward, and then to hear the viciousness in his voice after I left.

It was like getting hit in the gut. I couldn't breathe, and there are nights here (I live in such a big house) that I start crying and can't stop, fighting for breath, and feeling like I'm going to throw up and pass out.

I told my sister I can't stand how much he hates me, and my sister said, "he doesn't hate you honey. He's sick."

I get what she's saying, but she didn't hear his voice, and if that's not hate--and I don't care how sick he is--then I don't know what hate is.

I can't stand that I miss him. He has been horrible to me. With all the alcoholism in my family, with my mother dying when I was so young, no one has ever called me names, no one has ever treated me so consistently with absolutely no respect.

I feel expendable to his family. And that kills me. I tried and I wanted so badly to have a family with them, and that didn't happen, and that won't happen. My MIL told me before I married my H that he was the Lone Ranger, and was I prepared to go it alone. The problem is she told me that too soon into the relationship and I was suspicious because I believed everything that he had told me about his family. Probably some of the same lies he is now telling other people about me.

I feel off balance (I don't know a better word) that he fooled me so completely. I feel humiliated that he sent women video texts, trying to hook up, while I worried about his getting worse.

I feel furious with his P, and I know FF has played devil's advocate with her, and I get his point, but she has systematically dismissed my concerns about him going back to February. I was concerned that H had started smoking again. He'd stopped for a year, and he was so proud of that accomplishment.

Her response to that was most people who quit smoking resume at some point. She missed what I was getting at: one of the accomplishments he took pride in was gone. He was already regretting other things.

When I let her know that he'd bought marijuana illegally in Colorado, when it is available so readily, she didn't answer. I have now re-contacted her in the event she didn't understand that what concerned me was his apparent preference for the "rush" of illegally obtaining drugs. (He has a history of illegal drug use.) She still hasn't addressed that.

When I let her know he'd thrown aways his 14-year sobriety pin from AA (he was so friggin' proud of that), she didn't respond.

I feel angry at her, and I feel ashamed of myself that I still want him to be well. He obviously doesn't care about getting well, and he doesn't care about me or anyone.

I feel angry that I felt so afraid of him I called in security and considered getting a personal protection dog.

I feel angry that I'm crying at 7:00 in the morning, my favorite part of the day. I feel angry that I miss him, that I hate him. I feel angry that I've been abandoned, that I feel abandoned.

And I feel cheated. I'm in my 60s, and I want a do-over.

And all that said, for my own sanity, for my own well-being, I need to embrace the fact that all these crappy emotions are going into my writing. I am working on a piece, semi-autobiographical to be sure, about a woman who's been left and plays her marriage in rewind, trying to figure out how she could have made it better, or at least more tolerable, when she was the only one putting in the effort.

[formflier]

TMD,

Hey... .if I was the P, I would have handled you totally differently.  I DO think it's weird how she is going about it.

I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt that she has a treatment or ethical purpose in mind.  I would hope you could ask her this directly... .and I would hope she would directly answer you, even if it is an answer you don't like.

I would feel much better about it if you were able to relate to me, P said she is doing abc because of xyz.  I expressed concern because I see "efg" and she acknowledged seeing that, but in her professional experience thinks addressing xyz is most important.  Perhaps she would have shared some literature that informs her thinking.

I got the sense that you were trying to be on a team with her and she doesn't appear to be a good team member.  There may be valid and ethical reasons for that... .but she should let you know that directly.

FF

[toomanydogs]

TMD,

Hey... .if I was the P, I would have handled you totally differently.  I DO think it's weird how she is going about it.

I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt that she has a treatment or ethical purpose in mind.  I would hope you could ask her this directly... .and I would hope she would directly answer you, even if it is an answer you don't like.

I would feel much better about it if you were able to relate to me, P said she is doing abc because of xyz.  I expressed concern because I see "efg" and she acknowledged seeing that, but in her professional experience thinks addressing xyz is most important.  Perhaps she would have shared some literature that informs her thinking.

I got the sense that you were trying to be on a team with her and she doesn't appear to be a good team member.  There may be valid and ethical reasons for that... .but she should let you know that directly.

FF

Thanks, FF. I meet with my coach today (and see my son and his girlfriend. should be a good day and right now I was dancing to La Bamba.) and I'll see if I can be any more direct with his P.
I see an attorney this week regarding the legality of the video recording and keeping myself safe.
Thanks, FF.
TMD

[formflier]

It's good to have steps laid out that you can focus on.

It's also very good to have fellowship with those you love. 

Wishing you the best for today.  I've been doing some writing and journaling.  Sent several important emails.

I'm going to try to be quiet and reflective for most of the day. 

FF

[toomanydogs]

It's good to have steps laid out that you can focus on.

It's also very good to have fellowship with those you love. 



Wishing you the best for today.  I've been doing some writing and journaling.  Sent several important emails.

I'm going to try to be quiet and reflective for most of the day. 

FF

Hugs

[Learn each day]

The advice and support on these boards just blows my mind! I love it.

Maybe a little look at a possible reason behind the secret recordings... .
When my hubby goes full BPD he often doesn't remember his actions. I used to think it was a way of not taking responsibility for his actions. Counselor has said that he can be very dissasociative. Its a bit scarey.

It makes him constantly accuse the whole family of lieing or trying to make him feel crazy. He always says "I'm going to start recording you guys" and we always tell him that he is welcome to AS LONG AS HE LETS US KNOW. He has threatened to put up cameras in the house that we don't know about to "catch us" doing stuff... .

Does he always remember the stuff he does?

I totally applaud your steps you are taking! Good for you

[toomanydogs]

The advice and support on these boards just blows my mind! I love it.

I do, too.

It makes him constantly accuse the whole family of lieing or trying to make him feel crazy. He always says "I'm going to start recording you guys" and we always tell him that he is welcome to AS LONG AS HE LETS US KNOW. He has threatened to put up cameras in the house that we don't know about to "catch us" doing stuff... .

Mine told me before that he had hidden cameras in the guest house. I didn't believe him.
Guess I should have.

Does he always remember the stuff he does?

I wasn't sure if you were asking me about my H or speculating about your own. Mine  has a selective memory, and he always always always always remembers things people have done that have victimized him. Time for new memories, a new story, in my opinion.

I totally applaud your steps you are taking! Good for you

Thank you, LED. I met with my coach, and I was telling her regardless of how all this plays out whether my H files for divorce or he lives separately to ensure my safety, I think I'm taking steps that are helping me heal as we move in whatever direction we're headed.

TMD

[Learn each day]

I was definitely talking about yours. Mine clearly doesn't remember a lot of his behavior.