Gold Metal in push-pull goes to my wife.

[Cole]

dBPDw finally moved out to her apartment Saturday. It had been sitting vacant for two weeks.

Sunday, she wanted the kids to come over, so they did. Monday, she asked if she could come over after work and pick up a few things. She grabbed a few toiletries and some clothes then stayed for hours clinging to me and talking about how much she loves and misses me. Ditto last night, and she plans to come over and cook dinner for me and kids since I have to work late. So, she is either at work or here, using apartment only to sleep.

I have suggested she take the rest of her personal effects, but she only takes what she needs for immediate use. Dresser and all clothes save what she needs for work this week are all still here.  She grabbed a lamp from the living room to take for her bedroom and said she hates taking anything over there but needs it.

She text me 20-30 times a day saying she hates this and misses me, though the only thing that has changed is she sleeps at an apartment 5 minutes away. Is making plans for all these things for us to do together.

So, here we are with the Olympic Gold Metal in push-pull. I am not going to ask her to move back in, as I am not sure if I want her to just to repeat the process again.

Last night we had a very candid talk about our issues and she did not disregulate. This was a first. We have never talk about our problems without her disregulating before. She even admitted that many of our problems stem from her mental illness (she thinks she is bipolar, but has been dx as BPD and PTSD). And accepted blame for her addiction to social media and the web as a big reason we never spend time together.

I have put my divorce attorney on ice for the time being. Not sure what to do next, but refusing to play the rescuer, refusing to buy into the drama, and using SET seem to be leveling her out. Read several articles recently that the SO can play a bigger part in recovery/control of BPD than the therapist does, so working on that possibility. 

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[teapay]

Without legal means off the table I’m not sure how you will enforce your boundary and keep her from moving back in, other than perhaps temporarily by changing the locks.  And wouldn’t this just perpetuate the cycle again and validate many of the points I had made in one of your earlier posts.  Even if you are not ready to pull the plug on your marriage, you can always withdraw legal means later if you can work something out, but at least it would give you protection in case things don’t work out and some bite to your boundary this time.  You mentioned you were in law enforcement, so you know the value of and how to give a bite. 

[Cole]

Without legal means off the table I’m not sure how you will enforce your boundary and keep her from moving back in, other than perhaps temporarily by changing the locks.  

Short answer is in this state there is nothing short of a restraining order or divorce decree (which would take quite some time) that could be used to keep her from coming back. A legal separation would have to be agreed upon by both parties. All I can do if I don't want her to come back is refuse to play nice if she does, which only hurts the kids.

The solution we both want is to fix this marriage, but fixes with a pwBPD can be fleeting. She was very healthy for over a year recently, but the BPD came roaring back with a vengeance. The thing I am doing different this time is enlisting the help of a T for myself who specializes in teaching SO's of mentally ill folks how to properly deal with and help them.

[teapay]

Despite the excuses you are making regarding legal actions to enforce your stated boundary, right now you have quite abit of leverage over your W to actually solve the continued disruptions going on in family (another desire of yours) in a way that is less damaging to you and your family .  Instead of pulling the trigger on that means of address, you are choosing the route of continued codependency, almost desperately trying to professionalize it with the help of a T who specializes in that sort of thing.  You are okay with this saga going on.  Hoping for improvement?

[Cole]

Despite the excuses you are making regarding legal actions to enforce your stated boundary, right now you have quite abit of leverage over your W to actually solve the continued disruptions going on in family (another desire of yours) in a way that is less damaging to you and your family .  Instead of pulling the trigger on that means of address, you are choosing the route of continued codependency, almost desperately trying to professionalize it with the help of a T who specializes in that sort of thing.  You are okay with this saga going on.  Hoping for improvement?

Not an excuse, it is fact based on state law as to what I can or cannot do. You are the second person to suggest changing the locks. A big no-no according to my attorney and a friend who happens to be a judge. She has as much legal right to the house as I do and there isn't much that can be done about it. I do believe she would contest a divorce at this point, which would string this out over the next 12 months, minimum. That is a lot of stress on children, especially an autistic one.

And there is no desperation here in working with a T to find alternate ways to enforce boundaries. Just the next best solution. You may have missed the part about a discussion about marital issues without disregulation. This is a first and has much to do with a few things T told me to do.

[AskingWhy]

Cole, it's my understanding the BPDs are emotionally-stunted adults.  They are perpetual children.

For a child acting out, you need to plant firm boundaries.  Toddlers experience "separation and individuation" on their way to maturity.  In BPDs, this never happened.

It appears the cycling that you are experiencing is causing you yet more grief.  By having her own apartment, your wife appears to be keeping you in limbo so she can be free to be with you and yet retreat to her apartment for safety.

I agree that you are missing a moment to help your wife.  The sit-down talk might be a small new start in helping her regulate her feelings about the relationship.

I wish you all the best.

[teapay]

I’ve been through much of the disruption you going through and tried a lot of avenues of improving my life, my family situation and my W too, including codependency master trainers.    The most effective way to improve things for all involved when facing active BPD is boundaries and consequences and let the chips fall where they may.  But that takes common sense, personal honesty, personal responsibility and courage do the things that need to be done to solve a serious family problem.  If you got different ideas, go for it; let folks know how it turns out for you.  I’ll leave you alone, dude, and wish you luck.

[Cole]

teapay,

Do not misunderstand, I am not at all put off by your posts. They make a lot of sense. Just have my hands tied on removing her from the house as a boundary enforcement thanks to our state laws.

Have made it clear to her I do not want to "fix things" without significant changes from her and am encouraging her to move out all the way or make those changes.

[Tattered Heart]

So what do you want from this? Are you ok with her coming and going as convenient for her? Do you think being in separate houses for awhile will help?

[Cole]

So what do you want from this? Are you ok with her coming and going as convenient for her? Do you think being in separate houses for awhile will help?

What I want from this is for her to realize there are consequences to her actions. I cannot stop her from coming and going, as she is legally entitled to be here just as much as I am. If I filed for divorce today she would still be entitled to come and go as she pleases and it could take upwards of a year to finalize if she contests. And she will contest.

Last night she came over to cook dinner for kids and me since I was working late. I decided to go to dinner with friends and told her to just text me when she leaves. It became pretty clear that she is coming to the house not to see the kids, not for the house, but to see me. She called me on my way home very upset that she did not get to spend time with me. I came home to find grocery bags with wine, bread, and cheese on the kitchen island, so she had plans for us for the evening. She even cleaned and vacuumed before she left.  

So, there is my consequence. I cannot stop her  from coming and going as she pleases. But, violate my boundaries and I will not spend time with her.

Being in separate houses could be helpful, as it will force her to decide between her family or her behavior. The behavior is based on her belief that my family members all hate her because she is not good enough. (I should note here that this belief is based on perceived slights from over 15 years ago). So, she is going to have to decide if maintaining those irrational feelings is worth the loss of her family.

I have several appointments with new T in next few weeks to talk about how I can deal with this behavior. His input will help me decide what to do next. Aside from being a PhD psychologist, he also works in the legal field as a professional witness in family court. I believe he will have pragmatic advice as to how to handle this situation.

I agree that you are missing a moment to help your wife.  The sit-down talk might be a small new start in helping her regulate her feelings about the relationship.

We did have a very good sit down Tuesday. She admitted her MI and associated behavior is a major problem without trying to pass blame to me, my family, her family, etc... .She did so without disregulating, which was a first.

[pearlsw]

Hi Cole,

Sorry you are having such a difficult time! Seems to me you are very clear about understanding the legal ramifications for yourself and handling this as best as possible as far as I am understanding things. Please forgive me if I am not getting something here.

And also, I am impressed you have a found a therapist that specifically is helping you with interacting with a mentally ill partner - wish I had that. I'm having to take more of a do-it-yourselfer approach and train myself! I imagine that is an invaluable resource you have there. Is your goal to retrain your responses/how you interact? Provide yourself support for the at times overwhelming dysregulation? You are carrying a lot here and that should not be forgotten. You need support like all of us.

I feel like in a way, short of you beginning a divorce process, you are in a position to accept this limbo state. It seems like you will be having to wait and see. Is that how you are approaching it? Is that okay for you? Allowing for a certain amount of time like this to see what develops or is this just making you unhappy?

You are uncertain and trying to adjust to this new phase? After a certain amount of time of her not living there does that change your legal position? Do you want to give her some time to come around and find her way back to the relationship?  You say if she violates your boundaries you will not spend time with her. May I ask what you mean exactly? Is she being violent or verbally attacking you? Is this something your therapist advised you? No need to answer all inquiries, don't want to take up your time, just trying to get a better understanding of your emotional needs at this time.

What I worry about a bit here is thinking that she can be rational in the way you are rational. You wrote, "So, she is going to have to decide if maintaining those irrational feelings is worth the loss of her family." I think it might be good to take some time to start all over again with your own research/reading on this issue and looking again at your own understanding of how her emotions/mind work. I know it takes a lot of work, and having old issues resurface time and again can be exhausting. I wonder if there is a way, if I am not totally off base and misunderstanding your story here, to validate that she feels bad about her interactions with your family. Just that.

When you say you want her to see that there are consequences for her interactions... .May I ask, do you mean to punish her for something she has done? Or do you simply want to maintain a "healthy boundary" of some sort?  

Was the dinner nice for both of you? Had she been feeling neglected in the relationship? Is she really, when you break it all down, just asking for more of an emotional connection to you? (I think a lot of people want that, but don't always communicate that well.) Do you want that too? Is there way that some positive reinforcement of anything she is doing (that is not manipulative or against your wishes) could help bring you back together?

Wishing you the best!

[pearlsw]

May I also ask how your kids are handling this? When I was a kid (and my mom is not BPD I might add) there was some stress in my parent's marriage and my mom moved out for awhile to her own apartment. About six months or so I think. She eventually moved back in to our house. My dad was dying of cancer and my mom was at a breaking point. I don't quite know all the details. I know she was not handling it well and that she had been having affairs to cope with it though at time she left I think she was alone. (I know about the affairs because she was not always discrete and was trying to normalize it.)

I just know I did not want her to leave and it damaged our relationship that she did so. I was unhappy she walked out on us all during a crisis none of us (my other siblings and dad) were able to walk out on. None of us could drive yet, we were kids, and our dad sometimes needed to get to the hospital. It was scary. It is a wonder it didn't give me abandonment issues! But it did damage me. It made me so afraid to be an "abandoner" myself that I think I have stayed in relationships trying hard to stand by people and basically "not be like her." Ya know? (This is definitely my Achille's heel.)

Are your kids doing okay? Is there a way you can define this phase for them and your family that helps them cope with this? It seems important to me that she is coming over and trying to be with them as well as, it seems, get back into your heart? These are tough decisions... .if you want her for you or just for the kids, ya know? Be sure to think of what the kids need and how you can support them during this time... .it can/will have life long impacts on them.

Take care!

[Cole]

pearlsw,

Let me see if I can answer all that! You pose many good questions.

Yes, I have very clear understanding of the law and an attorney who does nothing but represent men in divorces. I do not want a divorce, but if W continues this one foot in and one foot out of the marriage thing, I will likely start process in October. It is a long process in this state.

Yes the T is very helpful. He has a very clear, deep understanding of BPD, which seems rare. I have been using several things he told me to try and they have helped level her out. A lot of research out there that indicates the actions of the SO can be much more influential than those of the pwBPD's T. I am seeing that immediate effect.

I have to accept the limbo state to a degree. All the advise to change the locks or not let her in is counter to state law and would look reflect poorly on me if/when this goes to court.

Yes, her not living here after a time does affect the legal status. That time is one full year, which is why I am looking for more immediate alternatives.

I do not expect rational thought at all times from someone with BPD. However, I do believe that there are things I can do to help elicit the more rational behavior. That is why I am talking to the new T and have seen results already by modifying how I interact with her.

My family has been a problem almost from the beginning. She grew up in an abusive home with a mother who did not want the responsibility of motherhood and told her from a young age she was nothing but an inconvenience. So, she assumes everyone thinks that of her and looks for any clue she can find to validate that feeling. Feelings become fact for pwBPD.

There was no dinner, I went with business associates while she had dinner with the kids. She left before I returned and was very upset I did not spend time with her. Funny, she moves out and gets upset that I did not spend the evening with her after she has been here every day since moving.

Yes, she wants more of an emotional connection. But like many pwBPD, she pushes me away every time we get close then feels abandoned. Or, she would ignore me and spend hours on facebook, pinterest and youtube then accuse me of not making time for her, though she admitted to that being her fault a couple days ago.  

[pearlsw]

Hi Cole,

Thank you for your posts. I appreciate your insights and the chance to learn from your experiences.

I understand the pain of the push/pull. My husband has broken with me hundreds of times in our years together.

You make a good point. You can do things to elicit more rational behavior. Are you also doing things to help her with her emotions? Providing some emotional support? I find that in the past I would withdraw a bit, be so turned off by his words/actions I would pull away and it would make things worse. I did not know about BPD back then. Now that I do, I try to embrace him and not push him away.

May I ask... .are you uncertain if you want the relationship or not? Deciding? Conflicted? Or committed to improving things? Only doing this for the kids? I ask because I don't get a clear sense of your emotions about this from your post. Do you want a connection or are you feeling so burned you don't have much left in the tank to give at this time? Any position is certainly understandable, but it feels like you are holding back a bit. How do you feel and what do you want? (That is okay if that is evolving. I know I certainly have days where even I can't hold my commitment to this and dream a little of getting out and having a break from being in someone else's emotionally intense world.) I just feel if we knew a little more about how you feel we could know how to support you better and that is my goal here.

Do you think she moved out because she wanted more emotion from you? Did she disengage and get wrapped up in social media because she felt she could not get a connection with you? Did you give her what you could but she was never satisfied and that made you feel bad? I know my husband's emotional intensity and the amount of emotional care-taking I do takes a toll on me. I wish I could have more breaks from it. And it is hard because I don't get my own emotional needs met. Where are you at if I may ask?

[pearlsw]

Yes, I agree on the legal stuff! Changing locks is not a good idea and not allowed. Glad you have clear legal guidance on this. It must be hard though because you don't have a clear set of working rules for your interactions with her. Is there any chance to begin putting a framework into place? I am not sure what that would look like, but if you are within a month of possibly filing for divorce it may be something you have to be preparing for - how your interactions will look like.

What do you want to have happen? Her to come home and stop the one foot in one foot out thing? What would that look like exactly with a BPD person who has such a strong tendency to do these kind of breaks? What could she do that would be enough for you/meet your needs? Have you ever just written out a list of what her needs are and what yours are to get a full handle on this? And then searched for the compromises? I know, easy for me to armchair quarterback here... .but I hope this can be repaired in time for all of you.

[Cole]

Sounds like you know the push/pull game. Sorry you have deal with it, as well. What works for you?

Desire is to fix our relationship. Things were actually going very well for quite a while. Then she got the idea in her head that everything would be better if I line my family up and MAKE them apologize for hurting her feelings.

First, you can't make people apologize. Epecially for things that did not happen or happened but not the way she now remembers it.

Second, as my T noted, if someone hurt her feelings it is her responsibility to talk to them. Not mine. If I do it she will never learn to do it herself.

As for helping her emotionally, I am trying new things:

I use SET and only state the truth only once or at least in only one format. I may have to repeat something a couple times before it sinks in, but I use the exact same words and refuse to continue the circular argument. Amazingly, it is working. A text from her yesterday: "You apologized and explained what you meant and I just kept going. I am sorry, I did it again"   Holy crap, it worked!

I am refusing to be put into the rescuer position. If she knows I will not play rescuer, then there is no fun in being the victim and no need for persecutors, such as my family.

As to why she moved out. You know how little kids threaten to hold their breath until they get what they want? Same thing. She is going to teach me a lesson by moving out until I MAKE my family members line up and apologize for hurting her feelings. What she did not expect was for me to offer to help her pack and ask her many times this week to take more of her things to her apartment. Or to tell her I have other plans last night. I think she will get tired of holding her breath pretty soon. Especially when her rent comes due and she notices my paychecks are not going into our joint account anymore.

[waverider]

The problem with her being able to have a foot both inside and outside is that she is using this to demonstrate control, which is ultimately driven by a desire for you not to have control over her.

She will not give this up readily while she has insecurity issues. Especially if you are being so supportive without her needing to be committed. She is grazing the benefits while ducking responsibilities.

You say she keeps coming back, and you suspect to see you, well you may not be able to stop her coming back, but you do not need to make yourself available. pwBPD like easy, convenient (to them) arrangements.

Given the legal stance you find yourself in, then the only way to fully counter this is for you to move out, or at least be prepared to. Though this may seem extreme it is one way to retain autonomy.

[Cole]

The problem with her being able to have a foot both inside and outside is that she is using this to demonstrate control, which is ultimately driven by a desire for you not to have control over her.

She will not give this up readily while she has insecurity issues. Especially if you are being so supportive without her needing to be committed. She is grazing the benefits while ducking responsibilities.

You say she keeps coming back, and you suspect to see you, well you may not be able to stop her coming back, but you do not need to make yourself available. pwBPD like easy, convenient (to them) arrangements.

Given the legal stance you find yourself in, then the only way to fully counter this is for you to move out, or at least be prepared to. Though this may seem extreme it is one way to retain autonomy.

Agree with all you say here WR.

As I look back, I have not posted that I am not making myself available to her. I am not.

Yesterday, she wanted to come over to pick our kids up to sleep over at her place. I had them ready and sent them out the door to meet her at her car when she pulled in. She pulled into the garage, so I know she planned to come in and stay a while but got the hint not to come in.  Later, she stopped back to pick up something my son forgot and I was not home.  I could tell from her texts she was put off that I was gone. Oh, well.

This AM she suddenly showed up unannounced because she had a panic attack at Church and I was not there for her. While I was in the shower she left to take S somewhere. I left to run errands and got a very angry phone call asking where I was, as she had come back to the house and I was gone.

When I got home she was still here. Told me that she knows her MI has a lot to do with her behavior. I asked her when she is moving the rest of her things so we can stop living in limo like this. She said she just does not know if she can, that she feels like a stray animal with no one to care for her.

She shows two different sides. One is a scared child who fears she cannot care for herself. The other is an adult who is prepared to care for herself and live on her own. I think the truth lies in the former, with the latter being false bravado.

[Cole]

She also asked me if I wanted to go grocery shopping with her, and put it out there numerous times that she wants to go to several of our favorite places together. I told her she should go grocery shopping on her own, as I already had done so for my household. And did not say yes or no to the other things, just kinda ignored them. If she wants to go do things as husband and wife, she is going to have to modify some behaviors, first.

[waverider]

Many pwBPD are very dependent on others, but are in complete denial of just how much as that feels like handing over control. Which we all have to do to some degree, but in that black and white way of thinking they struggle to accept only partial control. Hence the endless push pull dynamic as they try to claw back 100% control, of which they are ultimately incapable of.

[Cole]

Many pwBPD are very dependent on others, but are in complete denial of just how much as that feels like handing over control. Which we all have to do to some degree, but in that black and white way of thinking they struggle to accept only partial control. Hence the endless push pull dynamic as they try to claw back 100% control, of which they are ultimately incapable of.

I have come to see that recently. Over the weekend she stated she is nothing without me and that she feels like a stray animal with no one to care for her.

She went on and on about how I can do or fix anything and she can't even figure out how to hang a picture. I thought (but did not say) "That's your problem. I have been taking care of you for 18 years as your husband, let's see how you do on your own."  

It explains why she has always called me a control freak. I handled things because she was not capable of doing so, not because I wanted all the responsibility. And it explains the passive aggressive behavior toward me when she felt that way.

    

[waverider]

Non options (considered in descending order):
~I can do this
~I dont know how to do this, but I will try to find out how to do this
~If i cant work out how to do it then its just too bad I will have to do without

pwBPD options (decided in random cyclic order):
~I can do this
~I cant do this, i need someone to do it for me
~i cant do this, i will make an excuse as to why I dont need this
~It's not fair why don't I get to have this

[Cole]

pwBPD options (decided in random cyclic order):
~I can do this
~I cant do this, i need someone to do it for me
~i cant do this, i will make an excuse as to why I dont need this
~It's not fair why don't I get to have this

I would have to add:
- I can't do this and it is (fill in the blank)'s fault.
- I can't do this so I will ask you to then say you wouldn't let me.