A quick update...focusing on building a life for me

[formflier]

Thanks for those that have reached out via PM asking about my Dad.  Status:  The stroke is physically devastating, yet there are small... .undeniable signs of some physical recovery.  My guess is that "victory" would be getting him in shape to be cared for at home with a good bit of in home aide/nursing care.

BPD plays into this in that my wife was "perfect" support for... .perhaps a month... .1.5 months... .then things frayed.  I try to take the good when it presents and ignore the rest (for now).  "Fraying" is financial silliness and taking our kids to her sisters... .doing things that directly undo promises we made to each other.  I can tell you a one or two day time period where her "attitude" flopped from support to fray.  We were not together... .so I don't know what happened... (BPD happened). 

Reading tea leaves says it was FOO stuff.  15 year old niece called BS on BPDish mom and move out.  Looks permanent.  My wife tried to "fix"... .didn't work.

I'll probably break out some of these issues into separate posts... .as I have time.

Me:  I've made references to legal stuff (at the heart it's a contract dispute with public disparagement).  My wife talking to "other side"... .etc etc.  My team trounced them on their claims towards us and we are fully engaged in "going after them".  Likely another year or two on this... .depending on if they want to settle or not.   There are several people/entities involved... .

BPDish stuff plays into this in that my legal team understands and we have built a "structure" around how my wife is dealt with.  If she supports me... .we can use that to our benefit.  If she doesn't... .same thing.

In general my wife is supportive and wants my forgiveness.  She finds my use of the phrase "reconcile our relationship" very upsetting.  I use the "whiteboard" example and let her know it's "not just going to be erased"... .she doesn't like this.  I let her deal with this however she chooses.

Money:  There is no more joint money.  The account is still open, because closing it would create havoc with record keeping.  I have steered money that normally went in there to other places.  So... .wife has tried to use it a time or two and had things decline. 

She gets it that it's over.

A time or two she has asked me directly for things... .in a nice way.  Most of the time I've said yes. 

I don't toss this in her face... .I just move on with things. 

My further education:  As you guys know, I'm 100% Permanent and Total from the VA.  Unlike social security disability there is no "prohibition" against working.  The VA has a "vocational rehabilitation" program that I've been working with for the past couple years.  They are now sponsoring me to get an MBA at a "nationally known" university. 

I'm halfway into my first semester.  At first... I was scared to death.  Just about everyone was younger.  We just got midterm exams back... .and it is very likely I'm towards the top of my class.  I got 99/100 possible points.  My guess is I put about twice the amount of work into it as the others in my small group.  Not having a regular full time job does give that flexibility.

BPD plays into this in that my wife has been telling me for years to "just get a factory job"... .like her Dad... .and "love my family".  Basically... .go away... .send money.  I don't get triggered... .but really don't discuss it anymore.

My wife knows about my test score... .realizes I'm having a wonderful time in school... .and seems very unsettled about it. 

The future:  My hope is I can use contacts to get some consulting gigs or things where deadlines are flexible.  Very little chance I can be successful (due to disabilities) at "regular" 40 hour (or more) per week executive job.  However... .I'm proving I still have the executive "chops" to solve process issues and sort things out.  We'll see.

Do you guys remember the "biblical counselor" that I had such a wonderful time with?  I have a meeting (in about a month) with him and the senior pastor (he is number 2 guy) to discuss my concerns with his counsel.  The "governing body" posts ethical guidelines and he is/was "out of standards" of a number of those.  (more on this later).  My wife knows nothing of this at this point.


The letter about friendship to my wife:  I'll post more about this later today (after some lovely taxes and MBA homework).  I gave it to her this past Sunday.  She took it about how you guys would expect... .then calmed after 15-20 minutes.  Here is the thing... .I feel really good about what I said... .how I gave it to her... .

Sure I can describe her reaction (which has been all over the place)... .but that wasn't the point.  I spoke (wrote) about how I see my life and my past with her... .

More on this later.

FF

[Fian]

Hi FF, thank you for the update.  I have been wondering how things were going with you.

I wanted to ask you about ":)o you guys remember the "biblical counselor" that I had such a wonderful time with?  I have a meeting (in about a month) with him and the senior pastor (he is number 2 guy) to discuss my concerns with his counsel. "

I think the normal response for people is to turn the other cheek, and just avoid him in the future.  Why did you think it was necessary to escalate this?  I am not saying you are wrong, just curious.

[GaGrl]

FF, I wish you lived in my area.  I know of multiple consulting groups who work specifically in process improvement and project management.  I'm sure you can find the same types of consulting groups where you are.  My company uses contracted services extensively -- lots of companies have a deliberate strategy of using a percentage of contractors vs. full-time employees, for flexibility of workforce.  So you don't end up tied to 40 hours per week, necessarily.  Or... .it's 40 hours but not required to be on-site.

[formflier]

 
On the BC. (likely a more detailed post in the future... .or separate thread)

We are not members of the church.  My 7 year old seems to be getting a tender heart for Christ.  Asking lots of questions.  So... .I pray at some point she asks to be saved and wants to be baptized.  So... .am I really going to let her join a church without rest of the family?  

Am I really going to join a church that does "discipline" without understanding how the process works... .both ways.  Given my wife's history... .there will be allegations... . Previous churches "got it" and handled it appropriately.  

So... .I need to know... .one way or another.  This may mean the end of my relationship with this church and it could draw me closer to them if they actually practice what they preach.  Note:  This is not over "nuance".  

There is much to like about this church... .and... .honestly... .one big negative.  The one negative outweighs all the good... .if it can't be "solved" or "reconciled".

He had offered to discuss our differences a long time ago... .my wife explained all of my differences with him... .to him (in a BPDish way)... .it was really odd.  She got it completely wrong.  As a point of boundaries... .and I honestly have had better things to do with my time... .I said I would speak for myself when and if I ever got ready and clarified that my wife did NOT speak for me in any capacity.

Well... I'm ready.  I reached out.  We exchanged some emails and had a phone conversation of just under an hour.  If anything... .he dug in his heels.

2 big issues.

1.  He "made a judgment" that I was not disabled.  "FF there is no mental or physical issue preventing you from holding full time employment" (or something close to that).  He stands by that judgement... .still.

2.  He told me I had to learn to "return good for evil" and stay in my wife's presence when she gets mad "dysregulates".  That I should use my physical size to control the situation and protect myself.  Yet he wouldn't give specific instructions about how to do that.  (this issue is what counseling terminated over).  I wouldn't have any part of it.  I am twice the size of my wife... .that is stupid counsel to teach a man to physically control his wife.  Stupid.

After the phone conversation... .I was speechless... .even after all this time... .not one hint... .any "wiff" that he is/was wrong.

So... .I did some research and found their "governing body" (national organization) and read through their ethics.

1.  Going against doctors on physical problems is "always unethical" (their words).  BCs are limited to suggesting a second opinion.

2.  Physical safety of all involved is paramount.  BCs should never counsel people to compromise physical safety.  

Note... .this guy is a trainer for the national organization.

So... .there is a matter of keeping your mouth shut and there is a matter of speaking up when you know someone is dangerous.  

I'm definitely now in the speaking up when you believe someone is dangerous.

We'll see.

FF

[formflier]

FF, I wish you lived in my area.  I know of multiple consulting groups who work specifically in process improvement and project management.  I'm sure you can find the same types of consulting groups where you are.  My company uses contracted services extensively -- lots of companies have a deliberate strategy of using a percentage of contractors vs. full-time employees, for flexibility of workforce.  So you don't end up tied to 40 hours per week, necessarily.  Or... .it's 40 hours but not required to be on-site.

Yep... .I can do the 40 hours... .just not in a traditional 9-5 setting.  I need breaks.  10 hours one day (when things are good) and 2 the next.  You just never know.

Since the military I had two government "CEO" type positions.  I get it that some people ask how I could do that and be disabled... .and it is a good question.

When you are the boss you can reschedule meetings... .just because... .  Many times the excuses are real... .many times they were because of some issue that just popped up with my physically.

Unlikely I would ever be CEO type again.  It would be unwise for me to try.  But... .to consult with CEOs on special projects... .do analysis... .etc etc.

We'll see.

FF

[formflier]

I love project management... .very good at it. 

But... .many projects have tight deadlines... .

Consulting tends to be a bit less defined on deadlines... which is why I lean that direction.

FF

[babyducks]

So... .I need to know... .one way or another.  This may mean the end of my relationship with this church and it could draw me closer to them if they actually practice what they preach.  Note:  This is not over "nuance".  

Are you limited to contact with this church and this church only, by distance or location or faith tradition?

There is much to like about this church... .and... .honestly... .one big negative.  The one negative outweighs all the good... .if it can't be "solved" or "reconciled".

If you solve or reconcile this big negative what do you get out of it?   As opposed to pouring this amount of time and energy into a different religious community?   What's the pay off?   and is the pay off a fair trade for potentially opening this back up with your wife if she learns of it?   and for the effort you are putting into  hoisting them on their own petard?

1.  He "made a judgment" that I was not disabled.  "FF there is no mental or physical issue preventing you from holding full time employment" (or something close to that).  He stands by that judgement... .still.

2.  He told me I had to learn to "return good for evil" and stay in my wife's presence when she gets mad "dysregulates".  That I should use my physical size to control the situation and protect myself.  Yet he wouldn't give specific instructions about how to do that.  (this issue is what counseling terminated over).  I wouldn't have any part of it.  I am twice the size of my wife... .that is stupid counsel to teach a man to physically control his wife.  Stupid.

I'm not disagreeing with you, it is stupid.   But I also happen to think it is beyond stupid.   it appears deliberately misynogist.  

Are you operating with the assumption that the church leaders don't understand / haven't experienced this person acting this way.   especially as he is a national trainer?  I'm thinking that's pretty unlikely.

here is my thought.    there is only so long a person can live/function in a constant state of crisis.    under a constant load of stress.    eventually it will get them.  one way or another.   upstream in your first post in this thread you described a pretty heavy load.   your Dad,  the legal stuff,   the MBA, the ongoing low grade conflict with your wife.    oh and you have a couple of kids right?  

I'm not seeing the value in pursuing a conversation with some one you know to be intractable.

'ducks

[Fian]

Let me also present a scenario to you.  Church is intractable and senior pastor just defends the counselor.  What do you do?

If you decide to leave the church, then I am guessing your wife, and possibly kids will throw a fit.  If it was easy to leave, I suspect you might have already done so.  If it is the right decision, it is the right decision, however it sounds like they are in control of whether you have a fight with your family.  If they dig their heels, you fight your family.  If they give some level of change, you stay and don't have a fight with your family.  Personally, I don't like being in a situation where another person decides my course of action.

[formflier]

I'm not seeing the value in pursuing a conversation with some one you know to be intractable.

'ducks

Conversation with him is "over"... unless he changes his course, tune... .stance... .whatever.

This is a conversation with his boss... .about his performance... .with him there. 

His boss is on the board of directors of this national organization... .I would assume his boss will understand should this not be resolved... .that I will next go to the organization.  That's the next logical step.

Essentially I'm following the Biblical model.  I went to the guy directly... .now I'm taking another.

I'll likely start a new thread on this soon... .but I would really rather not walk away from this church.  Lots of relationships there that I value.  Physical proximity.

There is a lot that I can personally put up with for the benefit of my family (kids)... .so I'm not looking to have a perfect relationship with this guy... .or anything close.

I really doubt that I'm going to uncover "organization hypocrisy"... .but I might.  Given how important church is to me, my family... .etc etc.  This is not an area that I need to "guess" in... .or "assume".

P has had one "consultation" with this guy.  There is also a thought or question about if the church is going to be "part of the solution" or "part of the problem"... .with my wife... family... the future.

Right now... .as it stands with this guy... big "part of the problem".

So... .I want to see if it's solvable.

More later on this... .good questions.

FF

[babyducks]

Conversation with him is "over"... unless he changes his course, tune... .stance... .whatever.

This is a conversation with his boss... .about his performance... .with him there. 

The counselor may not be involved in the initial conversation but he will definitely be involved in the subsequent defense of his actions and reputation.   I see a potential for splash over post this conversation.

You've painted a pretty scathing picture of his professionalism up to now.   I am not convinced that he will respond any differently after this conversation.

Fian also raises a good point.   Organizations tend to defend their members.   Just in a general sense.

What does a 'win' look like for you?

'ducks

[formflier]

I want to stay at the church.  I want to be a member there and "build" my family there.

When I say there is "1" negative... .that's reality.  Lots of good.

This is such an "extreme" issue... .about something I care a lot about.  I need clarity.

A "win" will be clarity... .either way.  I certainly hope for reason to prevail... .some sort of effort to say sorry or correct bad counsel... .who knows. 

Sometimes a win means you get clarity and avoid something worse.  It would be much worse if I had already joined... .

FF

[empath]

Oh, my, church issues. I've been through two of these kinds of things in the past couple of years. The first one was when I met with my h and his pastor (h is on staff and ordained) and I mentioned my concerns that they weren't holding to biblical standards -- as well as other concerns. The pastor decided that h could continue in leadership and his ministry, and if that wasn't okay with me, I should probably worship somewhere else. As I've continued to try to talk with the pastor about my concerns and our marriage, he shuts down the conversations and is defensive. I eventually left that church. (he also has some prejudices against me)

The second situation involved a number of my friends who were trying to get through to the pastor there to help him to see the harm that he was causing. This was brought to the attention of the church in a very unfortunate incident, and the pastor's boss was aware of the situation. The pastor was able to stay, and a dear friend of mine was told to worship somewhere else. The pastor's boss backed him up.

In my personal situation, I had run the scenario in my mind and come up with the 'what if my concerns are not heard' decisions that would need to be made. It wasn't acceptable to me to continue in that situation anyway, and I had already made prayerful decisions about what to do.

The positive result from all that was that I am now in a church with a pastor who is very open to feedback and with folks who are willing to put into action what they believe. I know without a doubt that these folks and the pastor will support me in whatever decisions that I need to make.

Sometimes, a decision is hard to make when there is so much positive about a situation; that can keep us stuck. Is the issue a deal breaker for you?

[formflier]

Yes... .this issue is likely to be a deal breaker.  I say likely... .because I think there could be a range of options presented.

If he backs his number 2... .says ethical standards don't matter... .and if I don't like it... go somewhere else.

Dealbreaker... .because that would be an untenable about of hypocrisy from what is publicly preached, let alone the unethical part.

If he follows the Biblical model and supports the ethical standards... .and is "restorative"... .then I could see this firmly "cementing" my relationship with this church.

I realize there are many options between those two... .so ... .I'll just have to see.

What I'm not going to do is presume a response.  I'll see what he actually says/does... .and then go from there.

FF