How did you determine acceptable ways to be treated?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Thanks for explaining this, Meili. I get the distinction completely now. Ok yes, it's what we do with the emotion ourselves. That makes a lot of sense!
One of my favorite writers for inspiration is Pema Chodron. I came across a saying of hers a while back that always sticks in my head: drive all blames into one. I really like the way that's said.

[vanx]

Thanks for explaining this, Meili. I get the distinction completely now. Ok yes, it's what we do with the emotion ourselves. That makes a lot of sense!
One of my favorite writers for inspiration is Pema Chodron. I came across a saying of hers a while back that always sticks in my head: drive all blames into one. I really like the way that's said.

[Meili]

I really like that quote as well!

Besides, what good does it do to blame another? It just breeds resentment about something that you cannot control. Focusing on what we can control is all that we can do.

I'm happy that all of this is making better sense. It took me the better part of a decade to start to grasp it. You're doing so much better than I did!

[vanx]

Thank you for the encouragement! The pain of the breakup felt like a bottomless pit sometimes, but after a bumpy road, I am starting to see it is an important lesson about myself. Thanks everyone for your comments!

[vanx]

Maybe I should start a nee thread, but I want to ask a quick follow up question here. I work with my ex. During a typical week I sometimes only have to see her a total of 10 minutes, but it still causes me pain. And sometimes we do have to work together. When this happens my progress is set back a lot.
My question is, regarding what's been discussed about living a values based life that is personal, about not being affected by another person, I fear I can't live up to my ideals and just can't cope. It hurts to have to face I can't handle it, because it shows how affected I am by her. I know if I were in a good place in recovery I could handle seeing her, but it hurts me so much. I guess I am just looking for some support how I could frame quitting my job and not being mature or strong enough to handle seeing her as a positive part of recovery and moving forward. Where I'm at now, I will be disappointed and depressed quitting, but I just am at the end of my rope having to see her. I can't even look her in the eye. Thanks for hearing me out--it's just a tough spot.

[heartandwhole]

vanx,

It is such a tough spot to be in, and I can understand your feelings. I know if I had had to work with or see pwBPD right after our breakup that it would have slowed my recovery. I'm sorry that you have to interact with her regularly and that it hurts.  

Although I understand your thinking about quitting, I would encourage you to explore every alternative that might be supportive for you, especially if your work is fulfilling. Ultimately, you have to decide what is right for you, of course, but I wonder if there is a way that you can deal with the hurt that will strengthen your feeling of self-agency, rather than diminish it.

Is it possible to get a transfer or change departments so that you don't have to work with your ex.? If that's not possible, it might help to try to reframe the way you see your ex and/or your relationship so that interacting with her won't be so painful.

What do you think?

heartandwhole

[once removed]

I worry I could overreact.

vanx, i wonder what you would say to me if i spoke to you/treated you the way she does. i dont want to encourage conflict, especially in the work place, but when someone is being a jerk to you, you dont want to respond like a wounded puppy - it encourages more of the same.

im reminded of a line from family guy: "thanks george, you wanta say that again without the sarcasm?"

someone else once told me its best not to respond to "hey *******" with "hi".

youve mentioned that this issue of confidence/timidity was one she brought up (its one ive struggled with as well), and it touched a sore spot because you felt it was true. i think its an obstacle that remains. i dont mean go off on her, by no means. i mean dont be a door mat. be professional, but be strong.

give yourself a pep talk. come up with a few one liners if need be. i suspect youd feel a lot more comfortable at work and around her.

youve got it in you.

[vanx]

Thank you both heartandwhole and once removed for your replies. Don't mean to draw this out, but it's been a real tough spot, and I want to break through it and stay recovering.
Thanks, heartandwhole, for encouraging me to not be hasty with quitting. The thing is, I already quit this job once because of the breakup, and then I was lucky enough to be given a second chance. It's only a restaurant service job, but it's a comfortable work environment--the only problem I have is with my ex.
When you speak of reframing, I am reminded of your earlier comments in this thread about my expectations. That seems related. Here at home with my thoughts, it is manageable. In the moment though it is extremely difficult. I am almost scared of the level of intense emotions that arise in me from seeing her and interacting some. On one hand, I am still incredibly attracted to her and I feel the intensity of addiction when I see her. Then the next moment I am livid about her attitude or something along those lines. I feel like I could punch my fist through a wall. I'm trying to stay mindful, but it is an ultimate challenge for me to try to stay level headed. I don't even fully understand where all the emotions are coming from. I do feel willing to try new tactics, and I think I would feel better about myself if I could make it work. I think depression is a factor in making it difficult to stay positive and keep a fighting spirit.
once removed, I appreciate your perspective and to be honest had not thought of this, but I see what you mean. Most of the time she acts really sweet, but I am on edge. When she's mean, it's sudden and I'm almost not even sure if it's happening. I do feel at a point where I can't really take any more put downs, so I think I am ready to defend myself if the occasion arises. My usual tactic is honestly just to ignore/avoid her though. It's not the most mature, but my thoughts are I'd just really rather not bother. I just still feel so obsessed with her and ridiculously attracted. It feels unsafe. Anyhow, I get what you mean though, and I could use some work standing up for myself better. I'll try to imagine some things I could say to indicate that I am not a doormat.

It helps to feel heard. I'm so frustrated when I see her and take two steps back. Thanks for the input!

[Meili]

Caution, I may be projecting here because I avoid my x so that I don't have to deal with what you are describing vanx.   

My position on all of this is that you are focusing on the wrong thing. It sounds a lot like you are focusing on what she may or may not be thinking about you rather than on yourself when you see her.

I think that it goes right along with what H&W said about expectations and what OR said about how you respond to her.

As I said, I avoid situations where I think that my x will be so that I don't have to deal with what I think that she might be thinking about me. It's not a healthy way to live.

I'll ask you the same question that my T asked me: What does it matter what you ex thinks about you? That relationship is over, she is no longer in a position where her opinion of you should matter.

I think that it is very important of you to look at why it bothers you so much to interact with her at work.

[vortex of confusion]

Hey Vanx, I can relate to your feelings of pain upon seeing her. My ex and I have 4 kids together so there is zero option of not seeing him or interacting with him.

I can't blame him for my feelings. A lot of times, he is super nice. Sometimes, it is more painful when he is nice and sweet than when he is a flat out jerk. His niceness hurts because it has me questioning my own sanity at times. I find myself thinking things like, "Why couldn't he be this nice and sweet before I kicked him out?"

During those fleeting moments, I catch myself wondering if I did the right thing when I ended the relationship. I know that he would gladly move back in tomorrow if I would just relent. I also know that he would not change for one second and things would go right back to the way they were. I can't and won't do it. But, I get angry during those sweet and peaceful moments because it does remind me of the good parts of the relationship that I lost. It is okay to hurt. Have you let yourself fully grieve? Have you let yourself see the good and the bad in the relationship and grieve the whole thing?

I really think that once removed has some great words of advice. I don't really have much choice about seeing the ex because of the kids and the fact that we have 20 years of history, finances, etc. all tied up together.

The question of "What would you do if somebody else treated you this way?" is one to really, really think about. You can stand up for yourself without aiming to create conflict. Yes, standing up for yourself and asserting yourself can create conflict and it can sometimes feel like I am being a jerk, b***h, or something else that I consider negative.

When I stand up for myself, I feel like I am being a real jerk even when I am totally justified in setting boundaries and standing up for myself. That makes it very difficult at times.

I am going to add a slightly different angle to what Meili said. I don't worry so much about what the ex thinks of me. What I worry about is what I think of me and how I feel about me. I don't feel good when I respond in a way that does not align with who I want to be. When I feel like I failed at being nice or not being impacted, I can be very hard on myself. I have to get beyond that and let myself be imperfect. I am untangling a life time of negative voices that have been playing in my head as a result of my dysfunctional childhood. From the day I was born, I was told that I was just an afterthought. I am the youngest of 4 and it is kind of painful to feel like an afterthought. No matter how good I did, I was asked why it wasn't better. I could have an A and I would be asked why it wasn't an A+. I have a long history of being told that I was not enough or was too much. The ex doesn't have to say a single word to me. Those childhood messages play in my head and I can't help but feel like I failed when I am hurt by something that is hurtful. I was often told that I was too sensitive. As a result, I have spent my life trying to be tougher and stronger. As a result, I have allowed people to do things to me that I shouldn't have. I have kept quiet about things that I shouldn't have. I have bit my tongue and swallowed so many times when I should have stood up and said something.

Why would I NOT want to have feelings about somebody being rude or disrespectful to me? I see those reactions as a bit of a protective mechanism. It is up to you to decide what to do with those feelings. For example, with the ex, why would I want to stop being bothered by his BS? If I had chosen to continue the relationship with him, then that would be very important. However, I have ended the relationship and I have decided that I do NOT want to be treated that way and I do NOT want to have any kind of relationship where I am treated that way again. Allowing myself to feel the negative feelings is a way of reminding me to pay attention so that I can make better choices moving forward. I feel like I went as far as I did in the relationship with ex because I was afraid of conflict and because I was so focused on myself and how I wasn't reacting perfectly that I totally missed just how much the relationship did NOT work for me.

Time doesn't make it go away. However, it does get a lot better with time. For me, the key has been to allow myself to be bitter and angry and not be so hard on myself when I don't respond like I think I should have. I keep running into, "Why weren't you angry? Why did you allow him to treat you that way?" The more I dig and the more therapy sessions that I have, the more I realize that my anger and frustration and all of the negative feelings are way more justified than my being nice and positive. I don't know too many people that would have put up with what I did without getting angry and having some kind of reaction.

I find it very difficult to interact with the ex like nothing ever happened between us. I don't know how he feels about me or the relationship. I know that I feel very hurt and very wounded. I feel like I wasn't worth his time and effort. I feel like he threw away his family so he could go search for something better somewhere else. When he acts like nothing ever happened, I find myself feeling like I didn't matter to him. I still very much love him and I still occasionally find myself wishing that things could have been different. I recognize that things are what they are and all I can do is grieve and move on. Grief takes time and it sneaks up when least expected. I think about all of the loved ones in my life that have passed. Why would I want to stop thinking about them or forget the good times that we shared? Even though they are gone and are no longer part of my life, I can still cherish the good and cry over it being gone.

[vanx]

I'm very grateful for the responses I've gotten. I feel kind of needy and embarrassed coming back to tell and ask more, plus all the talking I do with multiple therapists. I'm sick of talking about it, and yet I still feel the need. Anyway the feedback helps a lot, so thank you.
Meili, what you write and what your therapist ask both make a lot of sense logically. I do continue to care a lot of what she thinks of me, or mostly what she thought of me, particularly that she found me unlovable because I am not emotionally stable. I think so too.
What makes it hard is I still think I'm madly in love with her and her liking me again is the only thing that will make me feel ok. I know that is cardinal sin #1. I guess the work to do is really explore my beliefs and the price I pay for them. It seems like a failure of self love to lose even more power and quit work so as not to see her. I think I would still be stuck with the same ruminations even if I leave, but wonder if I could heal faster, and I just don't know if I can handle it. In any case, I will take the question you raise into serious consideration.

Vortex, it really helps to feel less alone thinking I am crazy wondering if I was evet mistreated. I feel for your situation not being able to avoid your ex, as well as the pain of your ex being kind. It can make the bad things that happened seem distant and unreal.
Our stories are different in that my relationship was only 2 months, if that. I only bring this up because of your question about grieving. It is a good, thoughtful, helpful question, but I feel so silly. I never got to even really know her. It's all in my head. Maybe all this questioning of myself is blocking me from fully grieving though. I don't know.
I do want to work on being more assertive, and I think you have a good point--there is a way to do it without conflict. I suppose it's easier for me to be assertive with people I trust and who already have respect. It's something to work on with people I don't trust will "get it".
I'm told I'm too sensitive as well. Sensitivity is something to be confident about, but we get so many messages to the contrary. It especially hurts to be told you are "too sensitive". It's so judgmental and invalidating. Good for you for making choices based on thoughtful reflection of your emotions. I think it is pretty universal to want to be treated with love and respect, sensitivity aside.
Your last paragraph really touches me. Even though your relationship was much longer than mine, and with children, I strongly identify with what you describe. I don't know if I'm missing the mark here, but it's sad when you share those special, sensitive traits with a partner, but then they hide their feelings or have a protective front. Anyhow, thanks for sharing--I find a lot of comfort reading what you have to say. I appreciate the realism of "Time doesn't make it go away. However, it does get a lot better with time. "

[once removed]

What makes it hard is I still think I'm madly in love with her and her liking me again is the only thing that will make me feel ok.

i was going to suggest this, and you articulated it quite well. i get it, too. i had a class with my high school ex and i spent the entirety trying to... .in various ways, get her to like me again. i once briefly dated a gal who is kind of a user of people. after we split i ruminated for quite a while on the idea that apparently she didnt even see a use for me anymore. yikes 

... .its the kind of thing we really want to leave behind, and if you can get there, i think it will stay with you for life.

im a sensitive guy, too. these days, i consider it a strength, because im actually better in touch (https://bpdfamily.com/content/triggering-and-mindfulness-and-wise-mind) with my sensitivities and those of others. they dont rule me.

im wondering if this

I don't know if I'm missing the mark here, but it's sad when you share those special, sensitive traits with a partner, but then they hide their feelings or have a protective front.

is a big part of the feelings of rejection. you consider yourself a sensitive guy. you met someone who mirrored and validated that, was in fact, attracted to you partly based on it, and then were told "you are too sensitive" (which yes, is invalidating). i get the sense this is a big thing for you, wanting someone to appreciate your sensitivity, a part of your identity you feel was rejected.

[vanx]

Thanks, once removed,

You hit the nail on the head here, and I feel understood. This is the center of what has been so hurtful. Before this relationship, I was on the path of building confidence about my sensitivity. I think the positivity I had around it is what helped me get into a relationship at all. I have let her view of me shatter what was only beginning to be built up, mostly because she was keenly perceptive and cut to the bone with some of her words, and because deep down I fear the worst is true.
Of course you're right about leaving it behind, wanting to be liked again, and it's encouraging to hear you say how it's a permanent change. The switch in her perception of me still confuses me, even though I think I understand it better. It's really hard not to take it personally, because her accuracy was deadly keen. She saw through me.
I am just depressed too. If I were not, I would probably be able to handle it a little better. I'm just not in the best state of mind, so it's really back to the drawing board still trying to manage depression. Anyhow, thanks for your insights--you are quite accurate.

[Meili]

For whatever it's worth vanx and (CoV too), there are parts of my x that I'm still very much in love with as well. If we could have found common ground, I choose to believe that we'd still be together. I don't look at my loving her as a bad thing though, it's a positive to me. I learned more about what I actually want in my world.

I feel kind of needy and embarrassed coming back to tell and ask more, plus all the talking I do with multiple therapists. I'm sick of talking about it, and yet I still feel the need. Anyway the feedback helps a lot, so thank you.

I get those feelings. I stopped posting about my life a while back because of the same things. But, then I realized that is what we are all here for... .to talk, ask things, get advice, and work through what we experienced.
 

Meili, what you write and what your therapist ask both make a lot of sense logically.

And, therein lies the heart of the problem for many of us. We understand the logical part, but still fight with the emotions. I think that's why OR shared the Wisemind link. Both the intellectual and emotional sides of thoughts are important. Ignoring either causes problems.

I think I would still be stuck with the same ruminations even if I leave

I suspect that this is true. I know that in my case it is. There's always something there to remind me (oh, great, now that bad 80's song by Naked Eyes is stuck in my head!). What has changed is how I've decided to think about and deal with the thoughts.

[vanx]

 Naked Eyes. Thanks, Meili. It's comforting to know you still have feelings of love too. Ah, wise mind is so tough to master--I did appreciate that link as a reminder though. I could use more practice with it. Plenty of opportunities to try.
I hope I can change how I deal with the thoughts too. Sometimes I can, sometimes I can't. I was struggling with depression going into the relationship, but the end of it has made things worse--I am stuck in a bad combo of grief and depression. I know you shouldn't look to a romantic partner to save you, but while I was with her the depression was lifted. She made me feel good, even happy.
I hope I don't lose my job, but I think I am going to follow through and enter the hospital for ECT soon--been discussing this with my doc. I'm sharing here because I haven't told anyone outside of therapy and I am pretty nervous. Maybe it could work and I could have more strength to grow from the relationship experience. If not, I hope time will do its thing. I would like to get to a place where I could find the joy she gave me within my own self. Anyhow, I go on. Thanks for listening! It helps just to write this out.

[Meili]

Oh, man, I hear ya on the depression and entering the relationship giving a glimpse of happiness. I've spent my entire adult life struggling with depression and self-worth issues. My x made me feel that anything was possible and that I deserved to have more than I ever thought possible. So, I think that I completely get that part.

Like you, I started to look at how I could give myself those things. I knew that would require me to see myself as I believed (and still believe) that she saw me. By understanding that she was mirroring what I showed her, I was able to start seeing those things. I still struggle (a lot!) with most of it, but it is getting better.

There's something else that separates my way of thinking from a lot of people around here, I believe that my x truly loved me. We all talk about what we endured during the r/s, but knowing what I know now, she endured more than I did. I know that I was just involved in the r/s and the problems as she was, but they affected her deeper and more than they did me. It's part of why I know that I'm not a victim and I can make comments like "it's how we chose to deal with things."

I told you that I avoid her these days because I am not ready to deal with the feelings. It isn't the feelings of love that I avoid, it's the feelings of shame and guilt. The feelings of love and happy memories are things that I can smile about, so why would I avoid them? This is why I suggested that you look at what's behind your wanting to avoid her. I'm not suggesting that you feel guilty, but why would you want to avoid the feelings of love and the happiness that you shared?

I've always struggled with the idea of mourning a loss. Yes, I understand the emotions that come from knowing that we will not have someone or something in our lives again. That doesn't escape me. What I chose to look at however is not what I've lost; but, rather, what I've gained. That's why I talk about the gift(s) that my x gave me. Rather than deciding that she was a negative in my history, I view her as a positive. That only leaves me to deal with my own actions and feelings.

What are you choosing to look at? What are the thoughts that you struggle with about the relationship? I think that's where you need to be looking.

[vanx]

Thanks, Meili. I think my ex endured a lot too--I know what you mean. I believe in your case you are right, but with my ex I don't know that I believe she loved me. I think she believed she did at the time.
I'm having a hard time answering your questions, so they must be good questions. I would like to think positively about things. I think I am definitely focused on loss and rejection. The experience did teach me I need to respect myself more and stick to my values--that's a positive. It's hard to look at her because I'm still so attracted. I can't look her in the eye because she sees me as wounded and pathetic. It makes sense I need to shift my focus, but I don't know if I can handle seeing her. I guess I have to admit that right now I don't have what it takes.
I will think more and journal about what you have asked here. If I get some ideas it could be the start of a new post. I am having difficulty getting in touch with the answers. But like I said, that shows it's important to think about, so thank you! I will also think more about the mirroring aspect you mention. It's hard for me to see how the mirroring played out, but it makes sense it could
be helpful to raise self esteem.

[Meili]

Thank you, but there is no need to thank me. We are all here to help one another get through some really difficult times in our lives, learn, and grow.

I think I am definitely focused on loss and rejection.

Maybe that's a good place to start. You don't have to answer these questions for me/us, but some things to think about is why this one person's opinion means so much to you? What makes her opinion of you more valid than your own? Why put so much stock in it?

Also, why does it have to be a loss? You're starting to see some benefits from all of this (you taking a look at yourself and how you view yourself and making changes to grow and learn), so isn't that a boon rather than loss?

There are 7.6 billion people on this planet. Think about that number for a moment... .She's one of 7.6 BILLION! Let that sink in as you ponder all of these questions. How do the numbers play out when compared to the things that you are thinking about?

I can't look her in the eye because she sees me as wounded and pathetic.

Then, look her in the eyes and show her that you are neither of those things. You aren't wounded, you are just dealing with the aftermath. You definitely aren't pathetic, just in a bad situation. Change your perspective to change your attitude.

Even if you can't see those things right now, act as if you do. Stand tall and proud.

Remember, 1 in 7.6 BILLION... .

Even if she can't see the good things that you have to offer, the odds are that more than 1 of other 7.6 billion people do. Even better, at least one (probably a lot more) of those 7.6 billion will possess the qualities about her that you adored without the things that you disliked.

Remember, 1 in 7.6 BILLION... .

Just something to think about.

[vanx]

Jeez, Meili, this is really kind of you. I really will take some time to ponder these questions (and probably will post about it!). I just wanted to thank you so much for your support. I really will take this to heart!