Bullying and domestic violence: When do I involve third parties? Pt 3

[Radcliff]

This thread is continued from a previous thread:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=316173.0;all

I just had a tough talk with my wife on the phone.  She said that D16 probably isn't going to get into her favorite college because I've brought this on our family at the worst possible time, that I wasn't thinking about D16, and that my wife can't function at all and help D16 with the potential prosecution hanging over her head.  It is a real possibility that without my wife's feedback and emotional support D16's application will be shaky.  My wife daily wants to talk about how I betrayed her, and I keep asking that we hold off on discussing contentious issues for now and focus on supporting each other and the kids for the next few weeks.  I don't think we can deal with any of this without help.  I can't be honest.  I can't talk about how betrayed I feel from all the horrible things she has done with chronic abuse.  I am praying that we can hold things together enough so that D16 can put in a college application she feels really good about.  I told my wife that I had been hoping I could put up with whatever she dished out until the college application deadline, but just couldn't.  That was too much honesty.  She scoffed at me, and said I didn't have anything to put up with.  I cannot bear the thought that my choice to report when I did will derail D16's dreams.  I could not tolerate the abuse playing out in front of, and being justified to, D12 for another day.  I could see the impact on her behavior and it alarmed me.  Part of me wishes I'd just accepted whatever damage there would have been for another five weeks and dealt with it then.  And I am so upset at my wife for all the damage she has done and continues to do, and for not taking any responsibility for it.

I should maybe explain a little bit more about D16 and her college application.  We've been through the college application process before with D18.  It is a stressful time, but also a wonderful time, where you get to be proud of what your child has done, and how they are about to launch on their own.  With the essays, you see their creativity and personality come out.  And then, in the end, you read things over and see that they put everything they had into it, and whatever happens, happens.  It's not the result that I'm so fixated on (though that would be nice  but the absolute requirement that she feel like we supported her and she gave it her best shot.  This is a singular moment in her life that cannot be deferred or forgotten.  That is why I am so tortured about making a decision in favor of me and D12 at the expense of D16, wondering which path would have involved the least damage.

My plan is to not undermine the integrity of the police report, but on every other front to be supportive and deflect conflict, hoping that everyone can be calm enough for a few weeks and that we get a good result with no prosecution and that my wife and I can come through with good support for D16.

Radcliff

Continuation of:
Bullying and domestic violence: When do I involve third parties? Pt 2
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=316173

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[flourdust]

I see a lot of FOG here.

Your wife is continuing to assign you blame for your reactions to her abusive behavior. You don't have to accept that blame. You don't have to accept that any problems D16 is having are your fault.

Also ... .in a toxic family home, there is going to be fallout. It's unavoidable. D16 may have to wait a year to get into the college of her choice. It's not ideal, but she will survive that.

[DaddyBear77]

BB, first of all,   - this is one hell of a time for you. You're a really kind and empathetic person, you're learning and implementing so much here, you really should take a step back and acknowledge how far you've come.

First of all, remember FOG. Don't get lost in it.

The moment of releasing a college application is the culmination of many many years of experience, training, and growth. What happens in the next few weeks is extremely important. But keep in mind there are many many years of your D16's life, love, and experience going into this application. These things are not things that just come out of nowhere. They're in there. Your job is to help your daughter find the very best way to bring them out.

And, unfortunately, it's a fact of her life that her mother has a very serious personality disorder. I'm sure this isn't the first time she'll need to call upon her considerable inner strengths to overcome an adverse home situation.

All the things you're expressing are things I've considered myself - especially the desire to deflect conflict just long enough to get past the most recent hurdle. Spoiler alert: There is another hurdle right around the corner. And another one. And another one.

So is it possible to find a way to foster your daughter through this process while at the same time, embracing the reality of your wife's (her mother's) disorder and working through it instead of around it?

[Harley Quinn]

I'm in agreement with the responses you've had BB.  Please don't forget that your D16 is learning valuable life lessons from you, ALL the time.  What would she learn about how to care for her own safety and well being, and that of her future family, had you NOT acted?  She will understand that other things will always be happening at home, in her community and in the rest of the world, whilst she has things going on and that is healthy.  What specifically is preventing both your wife and yourself from giving her support whilst these other events are taking place alongside?  What here needs to be adapted to, and how?

Love and light x

[Radcliff]

So is it possible to find a way to foster your daughter through this process while at the same time, embracing the reality of your wife's (her mother's) disorder and working through it instead of around it?

DaddyBear77, maybe you could elaborate?  My plan is to not accept responsibility, to listen to what my wife says patiently and let it roll off my back, directing us to constructive action at every opportunity.  B.t.w., you are totally right about hurdles.  There is always another, but this one is a whopper  Thanks for your words of understanding about what's going on.

What specifically is preventing both your wife and yourself from giving her support whilst these other events are taking place alongside?  What here needs to be adapted to, and how?

HQ, my wife says she is incapacitated and can't help and that worries me.  But she loves D16 and is committed to her, and in the past, despite "the sky is falling" declarations, she has come through.  The obstacle is that if my wife is dysregulated, she can't help a stressed out teenager.  In the past, what has worked is for me to find all the strength I can to not allow my wife to make me believe her threats and that the sky is falling -- to just stay calm and be a steadying force.

[DaddyBear77]

DaddyBear77, maybe you could elaborate?  My plan is to not accept responsibility, to listen to what my wife says patiently and let it roll off my back, directing us to constructive action at every opportunity.

Ok, so those are great things - except the "not accept responsibility" part feels a little hard line-ish and unrealistic. There are things that you have responsibility for - you did file a report. You are literally responsible for that. And you did it after very careful consideration of the alternatives. And most of us here think it was a good decision. Do you?

That aside, here's what I'm thinking about D16. Now, it's reality that your wife has abused you, and does so at times of great dysregulation. I don't think it's reasonable or reality-based to try and just keep these facts hidden for a few weeks, and expect D16 to say "oh good, mom is finally normal and I'll get what I need from her." So what I envision would be taking the first opportunity to sit your D16 down and say something along the lines of "I know that you're coming up on a really important deadline, and I think I've heard you say this particular school is your first choice and you really want to do your best. How can I help you accomplish this goal?" And then, let her answer. If it's, "keep mom calm" then use SET, and say "I really want to support you getting this application finished the best it can be. I can really see how hard it is to be grounded when there's so much chaos in the house. Unfortunately the issues between your mother and I are very complex and cannot be solved quickly." Then, redirect: "I'd like to work directly with you to help you succeed. What can we do together to get this application finished?"

Ok, that's completely off the top of my head and needs a lot of work. We're peers here - this is something I struggle with every day, so please don't consider me an expert in any way. But if this were me, I'd start with what I just wrote above and work with it to see if it's something I could adapt and make work. Most importantly, it doesn't rely on the unrealistic requirement that your wife stays calm and collected for any length of time. You gotta deal with what's real here. And make sure to represent reality to your daughter as well.

Maybe some others can chime in with some thoughts on this, in case I'm completely off base

[GaGrl]

I can remember working on my college application -- I did not receive any help from my parents.  I was applying for a program that allowed me to skip my senior year, and I don't think they believed I was that serious.  I was, and I did it.  And then they were thrilled.

Your D16 probably has everything in her to do the application -- she may just need a place to work toward completion.  Is there anywhere else -- a relative's house, a friend's house? -- that would give her uninterrupted hours of peace and quiet to do her work?  Then you could review with her, edit and comment.

You do have a responsibility -- you are responsible for doing what is needed for your family's emotional health.  This is bigger than your wife's inability to function because of something she did resulting in a police report.  :)on't get lost in the FOG.

[Radcliff]

FD, DB, HQ, and Gagrl, thanks so much for your replies.

DB, good thoughts, thanks.  Rather than "not accept responsibility," better wording would have been that I won't accept blame.  I am responsible for the decision for sure.  It is one that I can stand behind.  I'm fallible enough that I've learned not to be absolutely certain about much, but a lot of thought went into the decision before and after the fact, and it still seems reasonable.  Good thoughts about going direct to D16.  The power there is that I can control it and don't have to rely on my wife.  I've done that before with D16, but it was helpful to be reminded of it.

Your D16 probably has everything in her to do the application... . Then you could review with her, edit and comment.

Gagrl, you are correct.  I think the upshot in all of this is that my daughter is quite independent and capable, and my wife, while she will claim a mortal wound, will work for my daughter and everything is likely to work out if I stay calm and remain a steadying force.  I don't think she needs a new location, but thanks for suggesting it.  She is a teenager, and her room is her "cave" -- using fans and headphones she can completely wall herself of and get the focus she needs.  And being older, she's much more able than D12 to have her own identity and wall herself off from parental chaos.

Thank you everyone for helping to keep me on an even keel.  The external reference really helps when I become completely enveloped in the FOG.

Radcliff

[snowglobe]

Dear @Radcliffs, it must be very taxing and confusing time for you. From your posts I could feel almost tangible inner conflict between your core values and believes and the sense of responsibility. You’ve come a long way knowing and living your truth, you know who you are and how you do/don’t want to be treated. You’ve made a decision to let your wife face the consequences of her actions. Backing off now will only negatively reinforce her behaviour. If I had to made an educated guess, based on the research from clinical literature, very likely, if you backed off now with your police report, then her behaviour would progressively Escalade to see a)how much further you will back off b) magical thinking that “at the end, no harm will come from you. From what I gathered from your posts this scenario doesn’t seem appealing to you. IMHO you should radically accept current reality, as you have, and try to support your daughter emotionally and otherwise. I can, in a way relate to what your wife said to you about being uncapitated. When my husband splits the uncertainty of the future and his behaviour puts me in catatonic state unable to provide the emotional nurturing that my children need. During these times I heavily rely on my parents to remain a constant positive force, and provided foster caregiving while we are recuperating. Do you have anyone who can help your daughter, or simply to confine in?

[pearlsw]

  Radcliff  

Hi BB, Just some quick reminders for you... .
1) Your wife "brought this on" by abusing you for many years.
2) You didn't choose the time, the emergency came at this time and you made a fair/reasonable choice to respond.
3) She is the one who tried to mess with you/threaten/escalate via her fake call to the police which you responded to earnestly and with a real need for self-protection.
4) Her need for control of you/the relationship caused this. She is the one committing abuse, not you.
5) You were thinking about D16 and care very much about her present and future.
6) You had to make a hard choice to deal with DV knowing it could impact your kids negatively. You were/are in a no-win situation that unfortunately will have some negative consequences for all involved, no way around that fact. But this can also lead to major improvements - at the least no more physical abuse which decreases your wife's negative impact on the household in at least one area.
7) You can't deal with this without help. You might need some family counseling. A counselor will say clearly that DV is not okay, and not your fault - in front of/to your wife and kids. That alone might make it worth it.
8) If you and your wife can't help with the college application stuff right now (and can afford it) find/hire someone who can.
9) You didn't pick yourself over others in the household. You are trying to realign and repair the entire household. You are making efforts which help the whole family whether anyone recognizes or gives you credit or not.
10) Haven't heard about what ended up in the police report, have you seen it yet? (She tried to make a false call, you made a real follow up call to police, she freaked out later and threatened suicide?) Doubt she'll get much serious trouble without serious bodily injury. With any luck she'll get probation and court ordered counseling though.

You have a list/rebuttal here. You don't need to JADE about this stuff. She is bound to be upset/scared... .those are called consequences - we all face them in life for one thing or another, she is no exception. She is unwell, but she must face them and integrate them into her reality. Let's hope she gets ordered into counseling and has to face more of the reality of these negative behaviors and the chance to learn new ones. She has good sides to her, I know that, but she also has to be brought back into order. It is unfortunate it got this far, but this is not your fault. No victim-blaming here. Abuse takes a huge toll on us and makes us sometimes put up with things that no one should ever have to. You are completely within your rights to say no more to this treatment. No guilt over the timing, okay? No guilt. Let it go. Let yourself feel light, don't not take on this extra weight/burden.

[Skip]

My wife daily wants to talk about how I betrayed her, and I keep asking that we hold off on discussing contentious issues for now and focus on supporting each other and the kids for the next few weeks.  I don't think we can deal with any of this without help.  I can't be honest.  I can't talk about how betrayed I feel from all the horrible things she has done with chronic abuse.

Don't do the co-dependent dance with her on this. You just give this life. You're loosening the noose, so to speak, back tracking, wavering. She feels an opening to change the narrative to one where you are the persecutor and she is the victim and she seizing on it (probably unconsciously). This is drama 101.
https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

Drama is how some people cope. In your house it works. She will spins the drama wheel and you will beg her to stop.

You have to stand strong. She is. There is a battle of wills here that has to play out.

My suggestion is to tell her, in a time of calm, that you will involve others to end the domestic violence and bullying as the two of your agreed before it ruins the family. If she wants to characterize that as you betraying the family, that is not constructive and it will hurt the family, but she is an equal partner and she is welcome to do what she wants.

After that, when she brings up the topic, listen (for a little while),  say, "I understand how you see his", and leave it at that. Then help you daughter... .take time and go to the library if wife is disturbing the concentration.

You want to fight with her. But you don't need her approval, either. And it certainly isn't the time to seek sympathy and soothing from her, or to expect her to buy in.

I just had a tough talk with my wife on the phone.  She said that D16 probably isn't going to get into her favorite college because I've brought this on our family at the worst possible time, that I wasn't thinking about D16, and that my wife can't function at all and help D16 with the potential prosecution hanging over her head.  It is a real possibility that without my wife's feedback and emotional support D16's application will be shaky.  My wife daily wants to talk about how I betrayed her, and I keep asking that we hold off on discussing contentious issues for now and focus on supporting each other and the kids for the next few weeks.

If you listen to Blaise Aquirre (MD, Harvard) he talks about the difference between manipulations and learned behavior. He would refer to this a learned behavior. She knows this approach will work with you and she will use it until it doesn't work anymore.  Blaise give an example about suicidal idealization - he doesn't allow the parents to visit the child admitted for SI. They found that this ends SI in a large percentage of cases. They don't try to convince the person to see  things their way or invalidate the SI in anyway. They don't make light the SI - to the contrary that take it very seriously. They never suggest that the child is manipulating - in fact, the staff is never allowed to say this word. They just eliminate one factor, parents at the bedside trying to soothe the child - the reward for bad behavior.

[Radcliff]

Pearl, thanks for your supportive points -- all of them were good.  The pretend 911 call was on a Tuesday, when the police came to our house.  I drove to the station to report several incidents with a letter and video/audio the following Saturday after she was trapping me in the bathroom and in the house and acting out in front of D12.  I am doing my best not to JADE.  As time goes on I'm becoming more confident in my position, and when she tries to blame me, etc. it's hard to contain my reaction not so much of anger but incredulity.  I just try to breath deep and not engage.

<b>:)kandyk, I appreciate your support and insight.  I am growing concerned about how my wife will react at the next step.  If charges are brought, she may dysregulate dramatically, and if they are not, she may be emboldened.  This makes your and Skip's cautions about loosening the pressure particularly important.  If I've loosened already, and charges are not brought, I may find myself many steps backward.  My boundaries around abuse will not slide, though, and I do not think she doubts my zero tolerance stance, which is one thing I believe I have going for me.

Skip, you are calling out some things that I realized at a low level, but it is helpful for you to call them out clearly.  You are right, she knows that my biggest vulnerability is the kids.  She may or may not realize, but I've essentially told her, that her behavior normalizing and justifying abuse to D12 has neutralized D12 as a lever -- I know going forward is the best thing I can do for D12.  That leaves only D16.  She knows D16's college application is my weakness.  I don't panic in front of her like I do with you guys here, but she knows it.  That is why the best way to manage it is to remain calm and not let her get me sucked into the drama, to eliminate the lever the best that I can.  You are totally right that it is a learned behavior, that she is doing it because she gets payback from it.  In the past, when I've recognized she's getting payback from some drama and I learn not to respond, I see how it throws her off her game until she finds a new lever.  She is almost out of levers for good.

You are right that I have loosened the screws a little bit, and I appreciate your calling my attention to the costs.  This time would have been a great time to continue the pressure.  I will see if I have opportunities to lean in a bit more, but my weakness w.r.t. D16 is real, and I need to be realistic about that handicap for now.  After November 1, she can do the rest of the applications without much support, so I'll be able to play a full game, understanding that I may have lost some ground.  While in the past I've had a continuing series of milestones (vacations, kids' events, etc.) that I didn't want to screw up, after Nov. 1 I am ready to stay on this and drive it forward without relenting.

You want to fight with her. But you don't need her approval, either. And it certainly isn't the time to seek sympathy and soothing from her, or to expect her to buy in.

Good reminders, thanks.  I made the mistake of telling her today on the phone that I wish this wasn't so stressful.  Stupid mistake!  Pretending to be invincible yet sensitive is exhausting.

Radcliff

[Radcliff]

Hello everyone.  My wife and D12 have been visiting D18 since Thursday night, and are returning Tuesday night.  Based a few text/phone communications with my wife, I'm concerned about how the relationship will go when she returns.  It has been wonderful to have some space, though, and to have 1:1 time to connect with D16 in a way I can't when my wife is in the mix.  And yes, help her on her application

This post gets a little heavy, but I've done my best to keep it suitable for the Improving board, and hope I've hit the mark.  Part of getting to where I want to go in the relationship is having an understanding of the current reality.

I have been journaling incidents regularly for about 14 months, but I don't read the journals or look at the videos.  One of the main reasons I'm documenting is to get past my own minimization, normalization, and forgetting of events that has contributed to me staying stuck.  Without looking at them, I hadn't used the feedback to understand what has been happening, and in the face of constant distortions and minimizations from my wife, I felt like I needed to go back and look at what I'd recorded in order to keep myself from wavering on my course.

Oy, vey.  Out of 14 months, I had time this weekend to get through the first 9 months.  Even reading journals, when looking at it day by day, I still had trouble "getting" the big picture.  So I made a table, with several types of abuse listed as rows, and a journal date in each column.  In each cell, I put a number down for how many times each behavior happened on each day.  I was shaken by the results.  I've never had visible marks, and you could visit my house 4 out of 5 days, maybe even 9 out of 10, and not see anything amiss.  So it's really easy to just stuff it and move on.  But looking at the table, that 9 month period was completely peppered with incidents.  It looked like a minefield.  The top 3 rows were emotional abuse/distortions/gaslighting (36 times), sabotage of my activities or communication with the kids (27 times), and assault (25 times).  There are more rows, but that's enough to give the idea.  No wonder I've been feeling burdened!  Just to be clear though, in the last two weeks since the police report, physical and blatant emotional abuse have dropped to zero, so things are safe right now.

Another thing I've been wondering about is the line between simply unhealthy verbal dialogue and verbal abuse.  I knew she said a lot of awful things, but felt like my minimizing and forgetting were keeping me from seeing things clearly.  As I was going through the journal, I cut and pasted quotes from my wife into a separate document, which ended up being a page and a half long.  When I saw it in black and white, I knew that all of it was abusive.  None of those things should be uttered in a relationship.  Ever.  I will no longer tolerate it.  Not in this house.

Looking at all of that, I realized that my relationship reality is worse than I thought.  My wife is sicker than I thought.  The damage is worse than I thought.  I am being mindful not to feed on drama -- I feel like I did long ago doing triage, preparing to get to work, but aware of the human toll.  I'm mostly not angry.  I'm feeling deep sadness, bordering on anguish.  For me, sure, but just as much or more for my wife, that this person I've loved since I was a teenager has sacrificed much of her humanity with this behavior, and for my children.

I was almost useless at work today.

I realized that even though she's been "clean" for two weeks, like a dry drunk, the underlying dysfunction is still there.  The outlook that allowed this to happen -- contempt for me and lack of consideration for me as a person -- is still there.  I am struggling to reconcile my empathy for her vulnerable inner child with the fact that I can no longer deny the actions of the adult.

She is expecting me to cross the entire gap between us.  In the past I have closed as much of the gap as she needed me to.  But this time I am stopping short.  I look at what has happened and I cannot cross the whole gap.  She will need to come towards me part of the way, or I will be left standing there in the middle of the gap, alone.  She will feel betrayed, and I will feel alone.  But to cross the whole gap I would have to betray myself.  This is a scary place to be.

Radcliff

[pearlsw]

Hi BB,

This was an important exercise you undertook - coming to grips with the past and the reality of what you've experienced. It will help steel your nerves and focus you for what happens between now and when the prosecutor decides how to handle this.  

Your words remind me of a famous quote:
"Leave your front door and your back door open.
Allow your thoughts to come and go.
Just don’t serve them tea."
-Shunryu Suzuki.

So, you undertook this step, but let's not stay there in that place. Be in the present and go forward. Let it go. Let it go. Let it go. You are doing great! This is how life is unfolding. This is what change feels like. These changes will benefit your family in the long run.

Let's lift back up, when you are ready to stand again, and find balance... .You had the chance to be the kind of dad you want to be without anything interfering with that and that sounds just super!

You have not betrayed her by bringing in the police. The police had to be called to protect you and your right to freedom from physical abuse or false threats - things which could have an even bigger amount of damage. They had to be called to help prevent her from potentially harming herself as well. It is not a betrayal. However she may frame it about that, feel about that, you don't have to. Okay?

I remember how I felt some guilt one time having to call Child Protective Services on someone while I was working at a DV shelter. I had just come to work and I heard someone yelling at someone else in another room at the end of a hallway. I thought it must be two adults fighting. It was actually a woman yelling at a child in a stroller the way adults (might) yell at one another - the word choices, the extreme tone, volume, etc... It was so shocking and horrifying. There was already a room full of women and other children standing there watching this when I walked in. No one was doing anything. They were all a bit paralyzed in fear. I reacted to the danger. I took the stroller with the child in it, rolled it to my office, locked the door and called CPS. They came and checked on things and took the child, but not the woman away. This at the start of my overnight shift. It simply had to be done. I could not let this be. I will never forget how it sounded hearing this woman yelling at this child and the horrible things she was saying and what she was prepared to do I think... .But I felt some guilt. Sure. I know it was likely unsettling for others in the shelter to see CPS come and take a child away from a mother. And I made a call that would affect her and her family for a long time I presumed... .and what else might she do in reaction to that? (I am forgetting that piece of it now... .) But that whole situation was serious and hard to swallow, but that was how that day went. But what mattered more? That child needed to be protected from abuse. You and your children need it too. That's why you made the call. It's a hard call. It's not something to take lightly or without consequences, but sometimes we do hard things, okay? We just have to. Let the guilt go. It serves nothing. You are good person for caring, but the guilt... .don't let it eat you. It's not worth it. Okay, man? If you had made the call on a day she was actually hitting you would she let you off the hook on it? Nope. So, let it go. That day was a long time coming. She well knows she has no right to do such things despite all the mean words (or an illness). Right?

You are not alone! You have a support system here and with some folks in your regular life as well.

You were useless at work today? Okay. Well, you'll give 'em a little extra another day if/when ya can/want to!

Yep. The cycles will come again. You know that too. Okay? The earth keeps spinning too. You have great tools with how to respond so you face her spins. Sometimes it will go better than others. No living in pain and fear. You can take breaks when you need them.

I am going to say this again because I see you worrying about this point. You have not betrayed her by bringing in the police. All the garbage insults, threats, etc. she may throw about it don't change that fact. Fact. Do you have a way to respond when this comes up? A short response and then you stop right there before it becomes an argument over this point?

Her suffering arises from her, and her expectations (about you doing all the work to "close the gap" arise from her own suffering - this terrible illness. You don't have to close that gap. You can't. You can't. You can't. You are not apart though. You are connected. You have not abandoned her. You just can't and shouldn't take the responsibility for her, and you can't take on her consequences. You have enough to deal with facing your own. You may end up with a divorce you don't want. Yes, that can happen. That is part of reality. Or you may end up with an improved marriage. Both of these options you will survive. I'm not saying anything you don't know. Just reminders. The good news is because of you and your standing your ground (with all of your backup/support) the physical violence can be over. She is forced to learn how to communicate in a way that doesn't resort to violence. I know. She says horrible stuff that hurts a lot too. But one piece at a time.

She may come home today and be mad/distant and threaten a divorce, etc. You are still there for her, you just aren't gonna fix this. You didn't break it. She went too far. Not you.

[flourdust]

I did the same thing for the same reasons, Radcliff -- reviewing my journal, I was shocked at how I had minimized the pattern of events. I viewed every major dysregulation as worse than any before it, but my records showed that they had been just this bad for months or years. Putting things on a spreadsheet made it clear that it was an ongoing pattern of abuse, not a few isolated clusters of incidents.

So, it's good that you are armed with this knowledge. What do you do next? Refreshing myself on the lessons here (conveniently listed on the right side of this page), I see more that you can analyze. How are you at the basic tools - wise mind, listening with empathy, avoiding invalidation, setting boundaries? Have you tried any of the communication tools in lesson 3? If all of that has failed (other than calling the police) ... .well, there's lesson 6, "When everything else fails."

What do you think?

[ozmatoz]

She is expecting me to cross the entire gap between us.  In the past I have closed as much of the gap as she needed me to.  But this time I am stopping short.  I look at what has happened and I cannot cross the whole gap.  She will need to come towards me part of the way, or I will be left standing there in the middle of the gap, alone.  She will feel betrayed, and I will feel alone.  But to cross the whole gap I would have to betray myself.  This is a scary place to be.

This is where I'm at too and it is a horribly scary place to be.  I've tried to make amends and own some of my issues and acknowledge that there is still much work to be done.  Unfortunately she still feels its entirely my responsibility to step up and love her fervently (she also claims that she has closed her half of the gap regardless of how I really feel).  Realizing that by standing in the middle could leave you entirely alone is not comfortable.  Every day is uncharted territory at this point and you have done more work with more care than anyone I know.  I too someday hope to be able to stay and stand strong in the middle and let the chips fall where they may.  

good luck,
-Oz

[Skip]

BB.  Your actions of late have broken the status quo of your relationship. That is a good thing. It's also an uncomfortable thing as the two of you now have to reestablish a new status quo.  I say this only makes the point that you're not solving a day-to-day issue right now, laying down the foundation of going forward.

 Try not to be reactionary to the past, or even her reactions right now, I would think more in terms of what the new status quo should feel like if you were starting over. That includes warmth, compassion, consideration, and mapping what is independent and what is interdependent.

Looking T the history can help if it helps you conceive what a heathy relationship model should be.  I only caution you to avoid injury immersion and to not adopt a model based mostly on correcting problems - adopt on that is more enriching to both of you.

[Radcliff]

pearlsw, thank you so much!.  I liked your analogy about not inviting your thoughts for tea.  Very helpful!  Your replies are always rich with thought, care, encouragement, and wisdom.  You are so generous.  Thank you.

flourdust, it's reassuring to know that I'm not the only one who has done this exercise.  Thanks for the encouragement to go back to basics.  I've refreshed on the lessons as you suggested.

Wisemind -- I generally do OK, here, but will be challenged as she may pull any lever she can to try to throw me off balance and get a reaction.

Validation and Empathy -- Familiar tools, but I'm going to need to bring my "A" game here.  I need to set the whole review exercise aside, and focus on her needs when she returns.  If she brings stress, my stress response is to get clinical and logical, which feels invalidating to her.  If she says her lawyer wants me to write a letter, I'll be thinking, "Since you faked having a divorce lawyer, I'm not even sure you have a defense lawyer, and if you do, I should talk to her."  What I should talk about instead is how I want to support her, how I can do a better job for her if I talk to the DA and don't right letters, how I can be a better advocate if her defense lawyer coaches me in person, etc.  I'm going to need to remind myself regularly on empathy, as I have the power position, she is feeling vulnerable, and I need to make sure I put away my hurts, keep the wisemind even if she challenges it, etc.

JADE -- I'm going to need to work hard here not to get sucked into a discussion justifying why I reported to the police.  She will be telling me that I betrayed her, that all of our friends would say I was a crazy horrible person for doing it, etc.  When she comes at me with heat about why I didn't do something or why D16 didn't do something, I need to avoid feeling defensive and recognize that she's simply anxious about these important things getting done.

boundaries -- I'm getting better at picking them, setting them, rational consequences, etc.  I need to be mindful about introducing and enforcing them calmly and humanely, without letting my actions come from, or appear to come from, emotion.

Oz, it's reassuring to know I'm not the only one feeling this way, but I am also sorry you are in the same boat as me.  Thanks for the support.

Skip, this was helpful, thanks:

Try not to be reactionary to the past, or even her reactions right now, I would think more in terms of what the new status quo should feel like if you were starting over. That includes warmth, compassion, consideration, and mapping what is independent and what is interdependent.

Looking T the history can help if it helps you conceive what a heathy relationship model should be.  I only caution you to avoid injury immersion and to not adopt a model based mostly on correcting problems - adopt on that is more enriching to both of you.

Yes, I'm with you avoiding injury immersion.  History helps us understand where we are coming from and avoid repeating past mistakes.  I agree the energy goes to the future.  W.r.t. a model not based on correcting problems, it seems like we are necessarily correcting problems but if you are talking about emphasizing the modeling of a warm, caring home by leading by example, rather than addressing a list of deficiencies, then I'm with you.

Thank you all for the support.  Today's a better day.  I'm wrapping up the history thing for now and putting it aside, having a productive day at work and will leave a bit early to prepare for the homecoming.

Radcliff

[flourdust]

Wisemind -- I generally do OK, here, but will be challenged as she may pull any lever she can to try to throw me off balance and get a reaction.

That's good. Nobody stays in Wisemind forever, but you are aware of it being somewhere to re-center to when you are thrown off.

If she brings stress, my stress response is to get clinical and logical, which feels invalidating to her.

This is a perceptive observation!

What I should talk about instead is how I want to support her, how I can do a better job for her if I talk to the DA and don't right letters, how I can be a better advocate if her defense lawyer coaches me in person, etc.

Wait, what? This isn't validation; this is soothing with bulls***.   You aren't going to have her defense lawyer (if such a person exists) "coach you in person." Can you back up here and think about responding empathically ... .or at least not being clinical and logical and telling her that she's making up imaginary defense lawyers ... .as a starting point? She's distressed. You can acknowledge her distress without having to own it or fix it.

Did you look at Lesson 6? It talks about therapeutic separation. If your best efforts can't reduce the temperature in the relationship, and the conflict starts to ramp up to the point where law enforcement is a viable option again ... .you should start thinking about what your approach is then.

[Radcliff]

Wait, what? This isn't validation; this is soothing with bulls***.   You aren't going to have her defense lawyer (if such a person exists) "coach you in person." Can you back up here and think about responding empathically ... .or at least not being clinical and logical and telling her that she's making up imaginary defense lawyers ... .as a starting point? She's distressed. You can acknowledge her distress without having to own it or fix it.

I should give some background.  When I reported at the police station, the police said that the decision on whether or not to prosecute belonged to the DA, but that I could talk to the DA to give input if I didn't want her to be prosecuted.  This seemed consistent with my goals and value, and still does.  If documentation, the involvement of the police, and the light of day is enough to stop the abuse, prosecuting my wife does not serve anyone.  She has since tried to push further with specific demands for how I can help her avoid prosecution, including writing letters, recanting my report, etc.  By offering to talk to the DA, I'm sticking to my original promise and politely refusing to buy into her additional demands.  :)oes that make sense?  Any observations or concerns?

Did you look at Lesson 6? It talks about therapeutic separation. If your best efforts can't reduce the temperature in the relationship, and the conflict starts to ramp up to the point where law enforcement is a viable option again ... .you should start thinking about what your approach is then.

Yes, I've read about therapeutic separation.  I'm not particularly attracted to it, and we don't have the help of a therapist (it doesn't seem like something that should be tried without a therapist).  MC may be a possibility in the near future.  We'll see.  I've felt reasonably safe at home since the police report.  She has done a good job of controlling her behavior, in situations where previously things would have gotten out of hand.  I won't become complacent, but I'm optimistic that the boundary will hold.

Radcliff

[I_Am_The_Fire]

I wholeheartedly agree with everyone's advice and support here. You're in an extremely difficult situation and I think you're doing great actually. It's not easy to do what you're doing and it's not easy to stay consistent. I think of it like a cha-cha sometimes. We take a few steps forward and some backwards. The point is to learn from it and keep going the direction you want to go. Hang in there.

[pearlsw]

If I may ask, what would you say to the DA on her behalf?

[flourdust]

I should give some background.  When I reported at the police station, the police said that the decision on whether or not to prosecute belonged to the DA, but that I could talk to the DA to give input if I didn't want her to be prosecuted.  

Oh, my misunderstanding! I was thinking divorce attorney.

[Skip]

I should give some background.  When I reported at the police station, the police said that the decision on whether or not to prosecute belonged to the DA, but that I could talk to the DA to give input if I didn't want her to be prosecuted.  This seemed consistent with my goals and value, and still does. If documentation, the involvement of the police, and the light of day is enough to stop the abuse, prosecuting my wife does not serve anyone.  She has since tried to push further with specific demands for how I can help her avoid prosecution, including writing letters, recanting my report, etc.  By offering to talk to the DA, I'm sticking to my original promise and politely refusing to buy into her additional demands.  :)oes that make sense?  Any observations or concerns?

Those are actions (not changes of perspective) and BB, it sounds like the two of you are on your way to normalizing these things... .

Has she said, clearly and unequivocally, that she has acted badly and feels remorse and is going to change, or is the focus on your "bad act" in reporting her?

My suggestio0n is to involved the brother in the discussions on what actions come next - he will he recenter this from fixing your bad act, to solving the problem the DV.

You are missing an opportunity here for daylight.

Do let this thing get turned on you.

[Harley Quinn]

Hi BB,

I totally respect your wishes that she not be prosecuted.  I felt the same way and didn't press charges.  However I'm a little concerned that your speaking with the DA to try to protect her from whatever follows may put you in a position with your wife where she feels that she has power over you.  The behaviour has ceased since she has the threat of action hanging over her.  Remove that and things could go up a notch instead of remaining stable as they are.  It seems that her shift in behaviour is driven by fear rather than a desire to change for the sake of the family.  She could easily reach the conclusion that if you were to have valid reason to report her to the police in the future then you would help her to fix it and save her from the consequences.  As one family member to another, could you consider the prospect of allowing things to unfold as they will and for her to take responsibility for herself?  What are the possible outcomes of this report?  Have you been informed of these?

I completely agree with Skip.  :)on't lean on just this one thing, being the report and DA action, to be the driver for better behaviour.  It's not enough to provoke lasting meaningful change.  She has to have the acknowledgement that change is necessary and the desire to affect that change in a purposeful way.  Her brother's involvement as an outside perspective can help to focus things.

Love and light x

[Radcliff]

Things are stable here since my wife got back Tuesday night.  Uncomfortable, exhausting, sometimes upsetting, but stable and occasionally collaborative on topics having to do with the girls.  Relationship-wise, not rowing in the same direction though.  I stayed home from work yesterday and we talked a lot.  I was super calm, and held my ground without being antagonistic, I believe.  I_Am_The_Fire and pearlsw, thanks for your replies!

Those are actions (not changes of perspective) and Radcliff, it sounds like the two of you are on your way to normalizing these things... .

Has she said, clearly and unequivocally, that she has acted badly and feels remorse and is going to change, or is the focus on your "bad act" in reporting her?

Skip, I want to make sure I understand.  She has had moments of remorse, and says the actions have stopped for good, but she is mostly focused on my "bad act" and feels I'm making something out of nothing.  Are you saying that if the abuse merely stops, and we don't have a change of perspective, that the relationship won't get to a good place -- the underlying attitudes will persist, and at the least, we'll have an unbalanced unhealthy relationship driven by contempt without regard for my needs, and at worst, the abuse will begin again?  If so, I think my thoughts on the situation are in line with your comments.

My suggestio0n is to involved the brother in the discussions on what actions come next - he will he recenter this from fixing your bad act, to solving the problem the DV.

I'm pretty sure that involving the brother would not work unless she is actively abusing or at risk herself.  It would feel like pulling him into a marital relationship issue, which could be messy, unproductive, and unfair to him.  Right after my wife got out of the hospital, she asked, horrified, if I had told any of her brothers.  I did not feel safe telling her the truth.  I did ask if she might call him for support, and she refused.  I will keep him updated, and will call him if things deteriorate.

I'm a little concerned that your speaking with the DA to try to protect her from whatever follows may put you in a position with your wife where she feels that she has power over you.  The behaviour has ceased since she has the threat of action hanging over her.  Remove that and things could go up a notch instead of remaining stable as they are.  It seems that her shift in behaviour is driven by fear rather than a desire to change for the sake of the family.  

HQ, I think your concern is important.  I do worry about how she'll act when the prosecution threat is lifted, and at the very least expect some relationship blowback where she lets out her anger about being "betrayed."

She could easily reach the conclusion that if you were to have valid reason to report her to the police in the future then you would help her to fix it and save her from the consequences.  As one family member to another, could you consider the prospect of allowing things to unfold as they will and for her to take responsibility for herself?  What are the possible outcomes of this report?  Have you been informed of these?

Because I've held back quite a bit, and not gushed my willingness to save her, she is nervous about what I will say to the DA.  She also knows I will call the police quickly in the future.  Because I promised to ask the DA not to prosecute, my integrity value compels me to follow through on that.  After we get through this one, I'll make it clear that I will not be doing any intervening in the future.  The report includes several misdemeanor offenses that could theoretically involve jail time, but there are no prior offenses and I don't know that the evidence is that strong from a criminal defense perspective, so there's a good chance the DA would not take action even if I didn't intervene.

I completely agree with Skip.  :)on't lean on just this one thing, being the report and DA action, to be the driver for better behaviour.  It's not enough to provoke lasting meaningful change.  She has to have the acknowledgement that change is necessary and the desire to affect that change in a purposeful way.

I think the chances are good that I've seen the last of the reportable abuse.  My attitude has fundamentally changed.  If anything happens again, we will very quickly get to a police call, and if I feel unsafe, to a restraining order evicting her from the home.  The most likely scenario that I see is that she proceeds as a "dry drunk" as I've called it, not abusing enough to get reported but with the same attitudes.

Yesterday, I took the day off of work with her to be with her on her first full day back.  In the morning, we talked about the letter she wants me to write to the DA.  I'm discussing here instead of on Legal because it's really about the relationship.  I think I may be OK writing a very short letter.  It seems like it saves me the trouble of trying to track down the DA, or the risk of missing them before they take action.  

Our discussion about the letter illustrates where we both are on this.  She wanted me to say that I didn't want charges, we wouldn't testify, and we were in marriage counseling.  I was OK with the first two, but objected firmly to simply saying we were in marriage counseling, since I felt that normalized things and implied that what had happened really was something that should have been dealt with in marriage counseling not by calling the police (this is my wife's opinion).  So I added something about the DV resources the police had referred me to:

Dear ____,

I am writing in reference to Case #______.  I do not want charges filed in this case.  I need to respectfully say that I will not be available to testify.

When I filed the report, I was given resources that I am following up on, and my wife and I have also begun working with a marriage counselor.  

Sincerely,
Radcliff

In the end, we couldn't agree on that last paragraph, so she sent a version with just the first paragraph to her lawyer.

So, if that's not enough news, we have our first MC appointment tomorrow.  The T is highly trained in DBT, came referred by someone I know, and I've had a short pre-conversation with her letting her know that there's an abuse history and that I'm an eggsheller.  I'm aware of the warnings around abuse and MC, so am nervous about this but willing to try it.  I really am at the end of my rope dealing with her 1:1 without some in-room support.  Your candor, concerns, and advice on this and all of the other things I've mentioned here are heartily welcomed.  

I am realizing that healing a relationship after abuse is a "thing" and there may be prerequisites, and progressive steps outlined by someone.  Or is it rare enough that there are not good maps?  I'm happy for any links to reading or homework on the topic; I feel unprepared.

*Thank you* for your continued support; words are insufficient to say what a help it has been.

Radcliff

[Skip]

Bringing the brother in is what is meant by giving it daylight and disinfectant... .having one off conversation and then retreating only serves to make it harder to call him next time and be asking for help when it is too late.

The most basic idea of "daylight" is involving the brother in good triangulation. And yes, that immerses him in your relationship. In the long run, this is far healthier than waiting 6 months for another blowup. Remember, domestic violence escalate - it may have valleys - but the long term trend is to escalate unless there is a significant healing plan in place.

As for your talks with your wife - my sense from what you are writing is that she has some token remorse, but the main topic on the table is your indiscretion of involving the police. The longer you have this debate, the more this undermines your position, and the more she will harden her position and the more this sets up future conflict.

Here's a mental image. My friend has good personal boundaries. If someone in a road rage god up in his face, he'd push the guy back and hard. If he guy got back up and said, and sad - hey, sorry I got in your face - but you didn't need to push me. You are the problem here. What would you expect to happen next. Which says "zero tolerance".

1. A long explanation by my friend about how he was justified in hs actions and trying to protect everyone involved from having a future cat wreck.

2. Picking the guy from the ground, apologizing, and offering to buy him new trousers.

3. Asking the guy if you could meet another day to chat about this.

4. A cold silent stare of strength and resolve.

I know the situation with your wife is not this cut and dry, I really do, but I'm sure you see my point. Conviction and resolve, not debate, is what is needed.

Conviction and resolve would sound like - if your attorney want to chat with me, have him call me at work - now lets go forward.  

The brother will likely do one thing that you can't do. He will say that focus needs to be on who threw the punch, not who called the ambulance. She needs to hear it from someone she respects (and who is not you) and will stay steady over the next year and you both work through this.

[bananas2]

Hi Radcliff -

Thank you for updating us on your situation. So glad to hear that your wife's return home went well. I know this is something you were concerned about. Great that you were prepared though in case it didn't turn out as you had hoped.  

I was about to mention 2 things, but I see that Skip already addressed exactly what I was thinking:

Remember, domestic violence escalate - it may have valleys - but the long term trend is to escalate unless there is a significant healing plan in place.

Precisely. I've been in this similar situation before. There must be a long-term plan in order to diffuse a possible long-term issue. Can I ask, what are your short-term and long-term goals?

Conviction and resolve would sound like - if your attorney want to chat with me, have him call me at work - now lets go forward.  

Yes. This is you expressing to her your commitment to move forward. This is an outcome-based statement. Her action on this point should give you a good indicator on her willingness to be on the same page as you moving forward.

In the morning, we talked about the letter she wants me to write to the DA.  I'm discussing here instead of on Legal because it's really about the relationship.

Your wording in this quote grabbed my attention: "The letter SHE WANTS me to write to the DA." Is this also a letter YOU want to write to the DA? Do you feel there is an opportunity to discuss with her what you BOTH want and what is in the best interest of your r/s and family? Do your discussions revolve around "Us" (marital r/s & children as a whole unit)?
On a side note, the part of this post discussing the wording of your letter to the DA may be suited for the legal forum. You may get more feedback there in regard to the specifics of this. If you decide to post this part in that section of the forum, I feel I can add more to this, having been in this exact position myself.

Having said all this, I'd like to express that I think you are doing an incredible job. You are always looking at what you can do to improve the situation. Many props & hugs to you!    Please ensure that you are taking good care of yourself during these trying times.  

[Skip]

I would really question writing a retraction or a "it really isn't that bad letter to the DA". It will suggest that you over reacted. What happens next time you call them? She will tell the cops about this letter and how you over react.

I don't even think her lawyer would need this, anyway. I'd talk with her lawyer, directly. Don't approach the law in a criminal case based on what you feel. That is never a good idea.

[Radcliff]

Thank you, Skip and Moxie.

Skip, I see your point about her brother, but there are enough moving parts here that I'm going to avoid that for now, and focus on adjusting in response to your other advice.  If we don't make progress, I'll keep in mind your advice to involve him before there is a crisis.

I do not believe the very short one paragraph version of the letter is a retraction.  That second paragraph is on the cutting room floor.  I have definitely wanted my wife to avoid prosecution, and still do, though my conviction on that point is starting to slide, as she keeps minimizing what happened.  Just the same, I did commit to my wife to talk to the DA.  I do not necessarily have to write a letter.  Yesterday I was thinking I might be OK with it, but today, less so.  I talked to a woman who runs a local DV organization today, so I have some local support.

Skip, I completely get you on projecting confidence and not allowing the appropriateness of the report to the police to be in question.  I have been doing a fair bit of that, but it's still a work in progress.  I've stopped making apologies, but am not quite projecting full confidence and closing that issue.

I am starting to see how tabling the issue of agreeing that DV was bad, even for a short while, is confusing things and making it more difficult to set the stage for healing.  Skip, you gave me this advice a while back.  I knew it was real, and now I'm looking at it.  I want to avoid being injury focused, and my wife is very articulate in trying to convince me that that is what I'm doing, but I see that I need to make an adjustment and will start leaning in more.

I'll post to the legal forum, thanks Moxie, for the encouragement.

Radcliff