Bullying and domestic violence: When do I involve third parties? Pt 3

[pearlsw]

Hi BB, There is so much going on here, a lot to take apart. I can't get to it all in one reply, but I have concerns.

I'm bringing this over from the other board you posted on because I didn't want to jam up your "legal" replies over there, but I want to echo what Skip is pointing out about normalizing - sliding back to your old "normal".

You wrote, "

My wife is physically abusive, tallying 25 assaults in 9 months that I added things up for.  The least serious are things like poking in the ribs, the most serious things like tackling and punching.  I filed my first police report three weeks ago, on a day when she was blocking me and trapping me, but had not assaulted me.  I went to the police station and gave them a letter and some videos and recordings describing five incidents.  Two weeks previously, we had a hard conversation where she had promised not to be abusive, and I said I wouldn't go to the police unless things were violent.  The blocking and trapping were not actions I'd said I'd report to the police.  So she says she thought she was following the rules, and feels I betrayed her.  She has a point, and I feel bad that I was clumsy in my implementation of boundaries.  I said from the night I reported that my intent was not to have her prosecuted, just to stop the abuse, and I promised to talk to the DA and ask them not to press charges.

BB, With all due respect, no, she does not have a point - not one that holds any water. You were not "clumsy in holding your boundaries". She threatened you with a false report that day, right? And you were "in the wrong" because you didn't keep a "promise" "only" to report "extreme" physical acts? No. Simply no. Sometimes things change. Had she "promised" not to make a fake phone call to the police? Had you worked that into the "deal"? No.

All of this abuse is distorting your thinking BB. You made a report, went down there in person right, because a real false report could have potentially ruined you... .And because you had a lot of evidence of abuse. Her (horrible) bluff backfired on her, and the consequences are serious, or should be.

She does not have a point, and I'm going to firmly suggest, with all concern for you, that you stop making this point for her or conceding this piece of ground. Twenty-five assaults. In just nine months. So, on average, every 10.8 days she assaulted you. This is not normal or acceptable. This is extreme. I say "is" and not "was" because it is not over yet.

BB, You too are part of the problem here. What do I mean by this? Her attitude has to change, but so does yours, okay? Your "deal" with your wife (and this may have been pointed out before) was negotiating the terms of your ongoing abuse, not putting an end to it. It's like saying you can't barrel bomb me anymore, but hand grenades are "okay". And now they (her and the lawyer) want you to participate further in the abuse by helping her in the courts? Because that is what this is sounding like unless you have a full change in your own attitude, and unless she shows genuine (not mushy) remorse. Is she willing to do all it takes to unlearn being an abuser? It will take years of hard work to unravel/improve this all I think. I'm not saying you should cooperate with the DA if you don't want to, that is your choice. But I think you should be firm that you want her to get help with the abuse issue so that you don't have to endure any more abuse. That is the point of all this right?  Marriage counseling (with the pitfalls that can entail) doesn't seem to be enough of an answer. What if she "hates" it and then just stops after a few tough sessions after the authorities are out of the picture?  What are you guilty of? Being a poor communicator sometimes, a less than "perfect" husband? Not a crime. She has committed serious, chronic abuse. An actual crime, crimes really. There must be actual remorse and something to deter more of this. What that is, I don't know... .

Please go back and read that list of ALL that constitutes abuse. (I know you were being coached and have had trouble with boundaries, etc. and had an idea about how to cut this down, etc.)  While you are talking frankly with your wife, if you are really getting into the weeds here, how about showing your wife that list? I've hesitated to say that before because I didn't want to give her more ideas, but perhaps put it in an email? Or taking it to the therapy session? Let her quietly and silently study that list and then have the chance to ask herself what abuse is and how many of them has she done? How do you expect her behaviors to change? How, if she does not acknowledge them and keeps blaming you for her legal troubles? Stop making the issue that you betrayed a promise - and I think you are doing this a bit too, not just her. The issue is she is seriously out of control and needs help acquiring new communication skills that are respectful and healthy... .(and legal!). You love her and want to preserve and improve the marriage - that is commendable. I don't want her to go to jail either. I care about her humanity too, but I do want her to get help and stop abusing you. I do want you to get help and change too and to have a happy, peaceful life. The #1 issue right now is her abuse. What is she going to do about it? Does she acknowledge it and can she/does she want to change? Not just her actions, but her attitude. Is your wife also aware that once the MC starts she can no longer abuse you because counselors have a duty to report abuse?

BB, How do you feel? Where are you in all this? I'm getting a sense of how she feels/what she wants, but what about you?  :)o you want to do all you can now with this opportunity to make sure you aren't right back at this spot in 6 months as another poster suggested? These are patterns, long, hard, ingrained patterns - hers and yours.  This has naturally affected your self-esteem. How can we recover that? Instead of feeling "bad" about reporting I suggest a "never forget" why attitude. I see that you are balanced and understanding, and those are nice qualities, but what you also need to be is fierce. Stand up for yourself without apology. Until you strongly, unequivocally say NO to physical and verbal abuse you will keep getting abused.  

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[flourdust]

I have to agree with pearlsw on this.

BB ... .have you taken the MOSAIC assessment? It will give you an objective analysis of the level of abuse or violence in your relationship. It can be eye-opening.

[Radcliff]

pearlsw, thanks I needed that.  I will re-read your post several times.
flourdust, if I remember correctly, I think I scored an 8/10 on MOSAIC, but I think I was a little pessimistic.  For example, I think there was a question about threatening pets and I answered "yes," because she held bleach over my fish tank.  Threatening a mammal, now that would be messed up.  Sorry, please forgive the dark humor, I have to vent every once in a while.  I found MOSAIC to be very helpful, as much for reading the questions they asked as for the numerical score, which I do think is imprecise.  I believe my risk of psychological damage is much higher than physical harm.  I finally called a local DV advocate yesterday, and she introduced me to the term, "coercive control."  With some of the learning I've been doing about abusive control, I can see that it is rampant in our relationship.  The thing that is mind-bending about this is that she is so high functioning, and can be wonderful with me when she decides to be.  I still have trouble wrapping my head around that.  I hope I'm not being naive in thinking that things will stay physically under control, but that's my best prediction.  I am preparing for a "post assault" era where abuse goes underground and she avoids anything reportable.

I just now got an e-mail from the police detective saying that the DA won't press charges, so that simplifies life.  His exact words were, "the DA has rejected your case" unless I provide more evidence of DV.  I was surprised to find that felt a little invalidating!  But it is of course what I'd asked for, and means there will be no distractions for D16 and the rest of the family this month.  I did not talk to my wife, but I heard her take a call from her lawyer, so she knows.  Just before the call she was starting to follow me around the house in an intimidating way for the first time since the report, but after the call she seems calmer.  I expect some sort of adjustment in her behavior, for better or worse, I'm not sure.

That is not the only notable thing than happened today.  At noon we had our first marriage counseling appointment.  In a bizarre twist of fate, when we got to her office, our new MC told us that she has breast cancer and wouldn't be able to start with us (her prognosis is good, and she is hoping to have a short, successful course of treatment).  My wife had breast cancer six years ago, and that's when life really started to go off the rails, so this was strange.  We talked for an hour, and the MC gave us a couple of good referrals to other DBT trained MC's.

There are two reasons I bring up the MC.  The first is the MC herself, and the second is my wife's behavior.  The MC is highly trained in DBT.  I could see a well worn copy of a Linehan book in her office, she recommended Frizetti's "High Conflict Couples" book, and I could see a white board with homework assignments from a DBT support group.  She was full of empathy and validation, but also skills-oriented and goal driven.  I got a little taste of what effective therapy might look like.  Wow.  I want to get us some of that!

My wife thought it was a waste of time.  Half an hour before the appointment, she said she wasn't going.  She wanted me to beg and plead.  She said, "Give me a reason why I should go.  Give me a reason why I should invest in our relationship."  I said, "This is important.  We both said we'd go.  I'll be in the car."  I said variants of that three times as I meandered towards the door.  She came.

The therapist asked us what the first thing we wanted was.  My wife basically said to fix me.  I said for us both to feel safe and confident that all of our communications would be with care and respect.  The therapist did a lot of validating on the amount of stress we've had in our lives, with my wife's cancer, her mother's passing, a couple of career disasters I've brought to us etc.  After the session, my wife said two things that were very interesting:

"That therapist really didn't like you," and,
"You were really upset that the therapist concentrated on me and didn't give you any attention.  I could see you getting angry."

Wow.  Sorry, I'm an optimist.  The glass is 1/16 full for me.  I had thought my wife might engage a bit.  So to see this kind of projection/warping was a little surprising, I'm embarrassed to admit.  I know I should have known.  I suppose I did.  But I was hoping for better.  The irony is that when I set up the appointment, I asked the therapist not to put me on the spot in the first session -- I said my highest priority was to make my wife feel comfortable and willing to come back a second time.

When we came back to the house, my wife wanted to sit down and talk about my part in the relationship and how I'm responsible for everything.  Wow.  I politely refused to engage in any such conversation, said I was getting a glass of water, and became very interested in loading the dishwasher.  I'm going to call that a victory for today!

D16 has a deadline to give a draft college application to a counselor Monday night.  I took off work today for the therapy and to make sure things were running smoothly at home, and I'm off work Monday as well.  Stalemate for now with my wife.  I'm going to be a nice, patient father and husband this weekend, but will not get drawn into any discussions about my sins.

I am believing more and more that my wife and I cannot talk productively unless there is a major change in perspective from her, and/or we have outside help.  (Yup, call me Einstein, I know this is what you've been telling me  My intent is to keep things calm until Nov 1, then I'm visiting my sick mother the first week of November, so I have three weeks or so to learn and plan the next steps.  I'm still interested in moving the relationship forward in a good direction, but recognize the obstacles.

I'd welcome any input/ideas for what to do next with my wife, or suggestions for reading/learning in the next few weeks.  You guys are totally freaking awesome.  Thank you.

Radcliff

[flourdust]

For example, I think there was a question about threatening pets and I answered "yes," because she held bleach over my fish tank.  Threatening a mammal, now that would be messed up.

Do you see how easily you minimize her behavior? It's right freakin' there!

[Radcliff]

Do you see how easily you minimize her behavior? It's right freakin' there!

Yup, I suppose that's why I answered "yes" to the pets question on MOSAIC.  Tonight, when I saw her gently and artfully helping my daughter with her college application, it was so easy to see her good qualities and try to forget what else happens.  My kids don't really see it (or at least I think they don't, and if they do, they need to normalize it in order for the world to make sense.).  Nobody outside sees it.  She can be a wonderful person.  And yet the pattern of coercive control is unmistakable.

I just found a book by Lundy Bancroft, "Should I Stay or Should I Go," which reviews said is a good way to assess an abusive relationship and see if you've done all you can do to repair it.  Seems like my next assignment.

pearlsw, I just reread your post.  Thank you, friend.  It was beautiful and appropriate, every word.  I needed to hear it.

Radcliff

[Radcliff]

OK, I just finished a quick read of "Should I Stay or Should I Go."  It talks about personality disorders as separate problems from abusive behavior, with personality disorders driven by emotions and abusive behavior driven by abusive attitudes of disrespect.  My wife certainly has deeply ingrained disrespect that drives her abusive behavior.  In fact, her behavior that's merely emotionally reactive seems relatively easy for me to deal with using our tools.  I don't know Bancroft well -- I know he's pretty well-known, but I don't know his credentials or how evidence based his work is.  But, if what he is saying is true, then the abuse I'm experiencing may be not a manifestation of BPD, but a co-morbidity.  In reading through the circumstances Bancroft says must exist for positive change, I can see how the BPD traits might powerfully block what needs to happen for positive and lasting change.  This is not optimistic for our situation.

Bancroft outlines four steps to take:
1.  Connecting to her empathy
2.  Getting others to challenge her (e.g., Skip's advice for me to involve my brother-in-law)
3.  Stop protecting her from the consequences of her actions
4.  Taking some time apart

I'll have another go at #1, but we know with BPD that's a long shot.  I'll also reconsider #2.  I believe she'd become wildly dysregulated if I involved her brother, but if the alternative is the relationship failing anyway, maybe it's worth a try.  I'm happy to do #3 immediately, but in this case don't see any consequences that are likely to have a big impact on her.  #4 is tough, since we have kids.  I'm not leaving the house.  It is possible I could encourage her to (unlikely) or I could force her to with a restraining order.  No appealing options.

I'm interested in anyone's input on the relationship aspects of this, and strategies for improving.  I'd also be interested if anyone has thoughts about whether abuse is a manifestation of BPD or a separate problem that can occur alongside it.

Radcliff

[Skip]

Bancroft and wife are valid authors. A lot of members use:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=128027.0

Bancroft outlines four steps to take:
1.  Connecting to her empathy
2.  Getting others to challenge her (e.g., Skip's advice for me to involve my brother-in-law)
3.  Stop protecting her from the consequences of her actions
4.  Taking some time apart

Actually, I suggested 1,2, and 3.     You're good with #1. Number #2 and #3, not so. Maybe they feel contrary to #1.  I suspect it's an entitlement issue. You do not feel entitled to these things.

They are not contrary. I might suggest reading Romantic Fool's threads to see the other side of coercive control... .the honest emotions behind it. The actual surprise at the benefits of giving it up.

I finally called a local DV advocate yesterday, and she introduced me to the term, "coercive control."  

You might want to add these definitions to your list: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=111772.msg1193549#msg1193549

In reading through the circumstances Bancroft says must exist for positive change, I can see how the BPD traits might powerfully block what needs to happen for positive and lasting change.  This is not optimistic for our situation.

If I have one criticism of the book is that it is not very optimistic. I think that is to make the point that this is a "fix or leave" problem... .you have already crossed over that line of understanding.

You're wife has been responsive, and that is optimistic, even with your relative timidness and approval seeking tendency (stand a little stronger BB).

Lastly, feel blessed that you have this therapist. She sounds like the perfect resource. You may wan to ask for a referral while she sorts her medical issue. Your wife will want to make this about fixing you. Let her go down that path and don't JADE. The therapist will ground her.

[Radcliff]

Skip,

Thanks very much for the detailed tips.  I will follow up on them.  I appreciate your more positive spin on things.  I will concentrate on standing tall and slowly ratcheting up the pressure as you advised long ago.  I feel more ready to do that now.  My goal is a fundamental change in behavior -- to have her accord me a basic level of respect and to abandon her view that I have to earn basic human respect with my good behavior.  That seems to be the crux of everything.

I think I'm finally seeing how the abuse is on a separate playing field, one that is not level, and that the abuse has to be dealt with first, including the underlying attitude of entitlement and the verbal disrespect.  I'm seeing how the "everybody has a part in this" approach, that is normally appropriate in relationships, can be an obstacle to successfully addressing the abuse first.

Radcliff

[Skip]

I'm seeing how the "everybody has a part in this" approach, that is normally appropriate in relationships, can be an obstacle to successfully addressing the abuse first.

Precisely. Domestic violence is unique and its why you start there. Once you get past this, the next steps in the relationship will be more cooperative.

[Harley Quinn]

Hi BB,

In response to your question around abuse and BPD being separate entities.  When I first spoke to my DV advocate, I was defending my ex and effectively minimising the violence because of his diagnosis and blaming the behaviour on that.  It was pointed out to me that if a person is an alcoholic or drug addict and they wife batter, does that mean it is purely the fault of the alcoholism/drugs?  I had to admit that no it isn't.  Not all alcoholics and drug users harm their loved ones.

I learned an awful lot in the recovery programme with the DV support service around ingrained attitudes and beliefs of abusers.  It dawned on me that BPD or not, my ex was a classic case of a domestic abuser who used coercion and threats, intimidation, emotional abuse, minimising, denying, blaming, and physical abuse to effect power and control over me.  Was some of this behaviour driven by his emotional dysregulation and fear of abandonment?  Yes.  :)oes that excuse it?  No.  :)id it have any less effect on me?  No.

I hope this helps a little to answer your question.

You are having some good flashes of awareness and recognising the signs that your wife is not coming from things from the same place you are.  Whilst you have your work cut out, follow the advice here and hold up your head in the knowledge that you did NOT make this happen and have nothing to feel bad about.  Stay strong and persist even in the face of things that once may have made you waver.  We believe in you.  Believe in yourself.

Love and light x  

[pearlsw]

Just a quick reminder that you have an abuse problem, first and foremost, not a communication problem. Just to relate, I did some relationship counseling with a former partner after struggling desperately to learn how to communicate with him thinking we’d be spending our lives together. I read stacks of books like you are doing. Like you I like to "give it my all" and make things work at almost any price. (But there are limits.)

Relationship counseling is typically for those who can self-regulate, learn, and are willing to change/improve their own behaviors - not merely blame the behavior on the abused person and "fix you" as she is hoping for. (That’s great that you found a DBT specialized person, but is your wife really gonna be able to commit to this?) I’m not saying she can't at some point, hopefully, improve, but she has to be willing to stop being an abuser first. Is she? Her mindset does not sound like a good fit for counseling yet. You aren't equals in the relationship and don't hold equal responsibility to fix this. She is already using therapy to make threats and control your behavior because that is what she does in all she does with you. Even those "nice moments" when she is helping the kids... .does she use them later to be in a one up position to you? She's the "good" parent, and you are the "incompetent" one. That is how she tries to keep you mentally down, abuse you, by telling you only she is capable.

I don't say this to take away from what you have in this relationship. (Rhetorically I ask: what do you have aside from all this abuse?  Affection, love, intimacy, support, kindness, interest in your feelings and thoughts?) I want you to have some happiness and good memories. You deserve it - we all do!

Personal responsibility and accountability are the keys for her to change. Have there been any consequences for her? If not, how will she change? If so, are they enough?

Are you 100% sure you want to let the case go? What would the DA have suggested? I doubt there would be jail time and that is not something I would choose. But would the DA have sent her to anger management, or some kind of DV deterrence program, or required another form of counseling? You might want to find out... .for the next time, and it will very likely come, that either you or her are calling the police and this repeats. If the main thing keeping the peace is the fear of the police, what happens now that that goes away to a degree? And if the counseling isn’t something she has to do or she starts freaking out because she does not know how to live a life where she is not controlling you what then?

This is a marathon... .there are no short cuts on this. But please don't ever think this happened because you are a "poor communicator". It has nothing to do with poor communication on your part. You deserve to be happy and have peace and freedom from abuse!

[Radcliff]

Skip, thanks for your patience.  I think I've finally got it

HQ, I had not remembered how relevant your experience is to mine -- thank you so much for sharing.  Your encouragement and support mean a lot to me.

pearlsw, yes, it's about abuse, not communication, I've realized.  Until I tackle the respect problem and she is willing to try to change, we can't work on the other stuff.  I realized after some reflection on the time with the MC yesterday that even in that short session with a very skilled and aware therapist, my wife was "using" therapy to her ends.  Hopefully the therapist would have reined that in, but it would have taken a bunch of energy and still might have distracted my wife from the fundamental change in attitude she needs to make.  It doesn't sound like that change is likely to come in couples therapy.  I have a referral from our one-time MC (who is sick and can't continue) to another MC, but am going to hold off for a little bit in contacting her while I process all of this.

pearlsw, w.r.t. your point about her accountability, which relates to Bancroft's #3 step, not shielding the abuser from the consequences of her actions, which Skip points out I need to work on -- the issue of the last police report is a done deal, no charges will be filed.  If there is another one, I will play it very differently.  I will call the police to the house, and will do nothing to mitigate arrest or prosecution.  That said, I'm not going to expect a prosecutor to fix my situation -- that's more likely to come by applying pressure to my wife, perhaps involving her brother, etc.  I am going to ask my local DV advocate to help me figure out if there are any good batterer intervention programs for women in our area.  I would want to know that a program was solid before investing any effort trying to get her to go to it.

You asked what I would do it she starts freaking out because she can no longer control me.  It depends what she does.  If she's just upset, we can talk.  If she is abusive, I can involve her brother, call the police, or have her removed from the house.  Last month I got some practice steadily increasing the pressure on her, and watching as she tried to adjust.  I've got some practice at it, and also am feeling stronger and better able to handle possible blowback this next time.  I will continue to prepare.

Thank you all!

Radcliff

See the next thread here:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=316172.0