Conflicted about continuing or ending it

[seekonlypeace]

I have posted on this board before, but it was a year or two ago, and my post and the helpful replies have been lost.  I am a widow, and got involved too early in another relationship.  He moved into my house before I realized how difficult a relationship with him would be, and now he has been here more than seven years.  But still I do not feel certainty about whether or not he should move out, or whether somehow it can work.  I will note that I am in my late 60s.

He has rages in which he shouts at me, sometimes for hours.  Recently these have been less frequent.  He is extremely paranoid about other people and their intentions towards him.  He thinks that my neighbor has placed a hidden microphone in my house.  Sometimes when he is outdoors working he hears voices that mock him.  He says that he is working for me, but he works on things that only he wants.  He insists that I must go along with anything he wants to do to my property, and only meekly ask, "What can I do to help?"

Recently he painted my deck, built a fortress around the deck, put an elaborate air system through my yard into the woods, and cut through the concrete in my driveway and my basement floor, to get clean air into my house.  Most of it was his idea.  I allowed it.  But today he said he wanted to paint my kitchen cabinet.  I said I wanted a clear coating over the woodwork (right now it's unpainted but finished wood).  That triggered a rage.  He does less shouting now, but he is very intense and it goes on for hours.

He said it would be too much work to sand it down.  He said that usually I stop him from doing things and then two years go by and I agree to it, like the deck, which he now has painted.  I told him he was making me ill by bullying me when I was eating.  He kept yelling at me, saying that I will remember only my own harsh feelings rather than his logical argument.

So he went to a far part of the house, and then called me on my cell phone, and asked if I would listen to him without reaction, or if he should let it go to voice mail.  I was still trying to eat.  I chose voice mail.

I listened to his voice message.  He is demanding an apology.  If not, he says he can’t go on.  He said that I need to acknowledge that there is something wrong with the way I am interacting with him.  He said that instead of reacting to what he said, and making my own statement, I should have asked a question.  He said he is trying to do this the right way, which includes accurate exchanges of ideas.  He said that he will stop doing everything around here until I apologize.

Do I owe him an apology?  I did get harsh with him when he insisted that the cupboard had to be painted, and told him that he was bullying me and that I was feeling ill from the intensity while I was trying to eat.  I got a little loud and insistent, but was responding to his tone.  At least that is what I remember.  I try to be calm, but it does not always work, and my anger seeps out.

There is much more I could write, but I will stop here.  I really appreciate this message board.

Thanks.
seekonlypeace

[babyducks]

Hi seekonlypeace,

welcome back.   in case you ever want to find your own messages, go to a thread you have posted in, (like this one) put your mouse/pointer over your name and click on your own name.  Your profile box will come up and at the bottom will be a line that says "show the last posts of this person".   Click on that and it will show the last threads you were involved with.

I am glad you came back.   Could you tell us what kind of support do you have where you live?   Do you have close family?    Trusted friends?   A member of the clergy you can speak freely too?   A counselor or a therapist?

To answer your immediate question, No I don't think you owe him an apology.    The situation as you describe it is one where your housemate is being unreasonable.   As he has before.

You've described very similar behavior before,  most recently about a year ago.   What do you think is happening to you and your house?

'ducks

[seekonlypeace]

Hi 'ducks,
Thanks so much for your response.  I often wonder if it is him or if it is me.  Sometimes I just need validation, so I appreciate yours.  I was able to find my old posts and the responses to them.  That was so helpful. 

I don't feel that I have much support, so that's why I was seeking out this group again.  I go to a therapist every two weeks.  I have a widow friend that I see occasionally, and we share our experiences.  But sometimes we go a month without corresponding.  I had been close to my youngest brother when I was first widowed, but he seems to have pulled back after he moved across country.  He wanted me to kick out my housemate, and I have not yet done that, so I think he is frustrated with me, and now we don't talk as often.  I had been close to a widower, but he has also backed off.  I think he was expecting that I would throw out my housemate and take up with him, and I haven't done that.  I think it's better to make friends with women, because men have too many expectations about becoming a girlfriend.  I have a brother here in town, but we talk only perhaps once or twice a year.  I wish I had more connections, but I don't.  I have been trying, with support groups and meetup groups, but people get a little friendly, and then they back off.  Or they already have enough connection of their own, with children and grandchildren.  I am childless.

Thanks for your assessment about my housemate.  I was prepared to ask him why he thinks I owe him an apology.  But this morning, I went downstairs to the kitchen, and he acted as if nothing had happened the night before.  He greeted me with a hug.  I had breakfast by myself.  Then we went to the new fitness center, just opening, where we have new memberships, and then to the pharmacy and grocery.  For dinner, he made tortillas and sautéed vegetables and invited me to open a bottle of red organic wine.  We finished a bottle of wine and had a pleasant meal.  He said that sometimes he looks at the photo taken of us at his niece’s wedding in 2010, and wishes we could be that way again.  We talked about his sisters.  It was pleasant, surprisingly so.

So I guess the crisis is past, for now.  I hope that what he is doing does not damage my house.  My late husband and I spent our hard-earned dollars on this house, and considered it to be a well-constructed building.  So I hope to get good equity dollars from it.  I will probably sell it in the next couple of years and move near one of my brothers, so that a nephew or niece can watch over me in my last years.  But I want to be able to buy the next house or condo without a mortgage.  That means I have to maximize what I can get from the sale of this house.

I think my housemate hopes to stay with me, but if he continues his need to control everything that happens in his environment, I feel that he must have his own house to do that.  He is working hard here, even though often it is what he wants to do, not what I want.  But I do not want to throw him out in the street.  I have helped him get a tiny retirement income that he is entitled to, but it is tiny.  But better than what he had before.  I might be able to help him get started with his own place, in some small way.  That might be the safest exit strategy for me.  At least that is what I am thinking right now.  I think it would be safer to exit in a way that gives him a plan to survive in his last years, and limits his resentment towards me.  I went to a NAMI meeting a couple of weeks ago, and people there told me I should kick him out, call the police, and file a restraining order.  That might be a very dangerous thing to do, based on what I know about him.  I think they gave me some dangerous advice, without asking me enough questions, and have not returned to their meeting.

I think the first issue is that I need certainty about what I want to do.  If I am not sure that we should separate, and then I suggest it to him, there is more of a chance that I will waffle if he tries to convince me not to separate.  But I still am not 100% certain, and that is a problem.  I have read books and websites about how to decide whether to "go or stay", and talked to therapists, and still don't have that certainty.  When he is really emotionally abusive, I have a lot more certainty, but when he is kind and reasonable, I have much less.  It goes back and forth.  I'm sure this is a common problem.  But I can't get that certainty.

Also, so many books and websites talk about "going vs staying".  But it's my house!  It seems that it would be so much easier for those who are not living in their own house, who can just walk away.  I can't do that.  He has tons of tools and pieces of equipment in my basement, and on my property in a neighboring state, and many projects in various stages of completion.  He probably would want to take months to collect all his tools and equipment and move them.  That long period of time would be very difficult.

But the first problem is that I just don't have that certainty.  Sometimes it takes years to work through this, as it has for me.  Friends and relatives lose patience, and the support network dwindles away to nothing.

Thanks for listening, 'ducks.  Let me know if you have any suggestions or comments.  I really appreciate you help and understanding.  I hope all is going well for you.

Seekonlypeace

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Your threads are here:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=220070    
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=220237    
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=297742    
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=316507

[babyducks]

Hi seekonlypeace,

thanks for your reply and the all the information in it.  that's helpful.   I appreciate it.

here are a couple of thoughts/suggestions.   I am wondering about this.

I had been close to my youngest brother when I was first widowed, but he seems to have pulled back after he moved across country.

when's the last time you went to visit your youngest brother?   would it help you to get your certainty if you changed your daily environment for a time?    could you make a trip to see him for a week or two?

when you train to run a marathon, you don't start out running miles and miles.   the first thing you do is run from this telephone pole to the next telephone pole, and then walk.    which is what I am wondering might help you.   small starts.   if you plan to sell  in the next couple of years and move near one of your brothers, so that a nephew or niece can watch over you, you could start traveling a little now, to see which city you prefer,  which place is most comfortable for you.  it might make breaking the connection with your housemate a little easier.

I am glad that the crisis is over for now and that when you went down for breakfast he let the issue drop.   I am curious about something though.    Can I ask,  did you think you owed him an apology?   And were you going to offer one?

I was prepared to ask him why he thinks I owe him an apology

that's an interesting approach, how do you think he would have reacted?

I hope that what he is doing does not damage my house.  My late husband and I spent our hard-earned dollars on this house, and considered it to be a well-constructed building.

I think that is a valid concern.   I would be concerned too.    Not knowing where you are I would wonder if any code inspector (prior to a sale)  would raise issues about work being done up to code.   

Next suggestion,... .come here regularly.   post often.   read other people's stories and post in their threads.  don't wait for the next crisis, the next argument, you know that one is coming.    they have for a long time now.    this is not going to go away or get any easier.    this is like training for a marathon.   every post you make,  every thread you read is training - a way to get the certainty you are looking for.

what do you think?

'ducks

[seekonlypeace]

Hi 'ducks,
Thanks for your response.  Yes, I do need to visit my brother. That's a really good suggestion.  I think about it often, but it might be a while before I can afford to go.  I do travel once a year to visit an important old friend, and to attend a writer's conference, 2400 miles from here near mountains and ocean.  That's a break that I need, but it has been all I can afford to do.  Eventually I'll find a way to visit my brother.  I can see that's really important and a good way to decide on my future.

No, I didn't think I owed him (my housemate) an apology, and I find it very difficult to apologize if I don't feel that I have anything to apologize for.  But sometimes in the face of his demands I feel uncertainty, and I needed validation.  I told this story to my therapist two days ago, and she also said that I did not owe him an apology.  It just didn't make sense.  She said that he must have sensed that he was pushing his luck by making such demands.  I'm not so sure about that part.  But he hasn't mentioned the incident again.

If I did ask him why he felt that I owed him an apology, he might have been OK with my question.  He always says that he wants me to ask "why" questions, to show that I am not assuming what his motivations are.  If he answered my question honestly, I still don't know if I would have discovered anything I should apologize for.  At most, I might have been sorry that he was putting himself through such emotional turmoil.  He sometimes says that about me if I complain about his rages or lectures.  But if I said that about him, it might trigger a rage.

At some point, I plan to bring a realtor into this house to advise me on changes to make it sellable.  I think I will have to ask my housemate to move out before I modify the house for sale.  He thinks he will be making all the modifications, but I need to get the modifications that I want.  He also has the basement packed full of tools and materials.  Those need to go before I can show the house.

The point when I sell the house and move seems like the easiest and safest time for separation.  But I don't know if I can wait that long. 

I still need certainty that separating is the right thing to do.  My therapist says that I will never have certainty.  But I need to be sure, so that I don't waffle, so I don't crumble under his insistence, so I don't keep changing my mind.  It's really hard, when sometimes he can be so kind, caring, and supportive.

I think you are right, that it will be helpful if I return more frequently to this forum.  I will try to do that. 

Thanks for all your suggestions.  I really appreciate it.

seekonlypeace

[seekonlypeace]

Today seemed to be a big turning point in my relationship with my difficult housemate, which has been going on since 2010.  It seemed that we finally were breaking up.  But now I am not so sure whether anything has changed.  I just need to tell my story and have someone listen who understands.  Please let me know if anyone has insights.

It started out with a rage.  This is Sunday, "egg day", when we always make a fancy breakfast and eat it together.  We were both in the kitchen just starting to prepare breakfast when I made a remark about a water pitcher that triggered an all-day rage.   

We use a water pitcher with a filtration system at the top of the pitcher.  I wanted to make him aware that last night he filled the pitcher so high that the water level went up into the filter area of the pitcher.  I had never seen it that high before, and thought he might not be aware it had happened.  I told him I had poured off a whole glass.  I said I thought that water sitting in the filter might not be good for it.  I said all this very calmly.

He went into a rage.  At first, he assumed that I had thrown away the water.  I had not.  I used the water I poured off.  I said that, and he seemed to accept it.  But he escalated his rage at me, shouting that I had unscientific ideas about how the pitcher worked.  He said it’s not a filter, but an adsorption unit.  He said water does not harm it.  He shouted on and on about my “opinion”, saying that I was not scientific, that I was just expressing superstition. 

I told him he didn’t need to criticize me and be so harsh.  That just fueled his rage.  I told him that when I hear a loud voice and angry words, I have to leave, so I went upstairs.  That enraged him even more.  He said I should never leave the room when he is talking.  But I said that I must leave the room whenever he rages.  He asked if I were not going to make breakfast now.  I said I would return when he became calm.  All his shouting drove the poor cat upstairs also.

He came upstairs and explained, in a quieter voice, that he is trying to “hurry up” all the projects he is working on, and he just needs to get the job done.  My unscientific opinions are interfering. I should just ask him a question about what water will do to the pitcher.  Instead of saying that the water in the top chamber would likely not be good for the  filter, I should ask, “Will water in the top chamber harm the filter?” and then he would answer.  But I know there is always a chance that I will not phrase something in exactly the right way for him.  I said that there was a better way to handle it if I said something he disagreed with – he could calmly explain what he thought about it instead. 

But I could hardly get a word in.  He said that now he would make his own breakfast.  He said that he had started raging only after I had left the room.  I tried to explain my own observation about what happened, which was that his raging was what drove me from the room, but then he started shouting again.  He said that he was describing a chronological list of the facts, but that I was just expressing opinion.  He said that nothing would be accomplished if I just wanted to say that I was right.  He said that he is about getting the work done, and nothing else takes precedence.  By then he was shouting again.  I told him that his rages wasted too much time, and interfered with getting the work done.  He did not want to hear what I had to say at all.  But at one point, he asked if I wanted him to get all his projects done.  I paused to think about it, but then said yes, but I also wanted his calmness.  He went downstairs and fixed his own breakfast.

Later when I went into the kitchen to fix my own breakfast, I saw that he had left a note on the table.  It said simply, in large letters, “I’ve gone to bed.”

Later he got up and said, “I need to know what you will do about everything if I’m not here to work on it.  I need to know why the work I’m doing is not at the top of your priority list.  If I’m optional, at least you could explain it to me.”  Then he went downstairs.

I wrote out my answer because he interrupts and out-shouts me when I try to talk with him.  My answer said that his work is important to me.  I need the cars, and the work on the building I bought.  But my own health, peacefulness in my house, freedom, and lack of fear are also important to me.  I need all those things, not just the work.  I can’t sacrifice respect and kindness for getting the work done.  Why do I want to get the work done?  Ultimately so I can accomplish my purpose and attain happiness.  If I have to get the work done by eliminating happiness, then I have defeated the whole purpose of getting the work done. 

I gave it to him, and he glanced at it.  I said aren’t you going to read it?  He replied that he had read it.  He said it did not answer his question.  He needed to know if he vanished for some reason, if I would survive financially.  For example, could I buy another car?  I said not immediately, but that I would find a way to do it.

He said, OK, now he could see why he was optional.  He just wanted to know if he could leave me and I would survive.  I told him to feel free to leave me, and that I would survive.

Then he calmed down.  He said that I must rent him the property here he is working, and that he would move there.  He would draw up a rental contract, which would give him many of the same legal rights as an owner.  I agreed to it.  We went out to the store and to dinner. 

It felt as if we were breaking up, after all these years.  I felt myself going back and forth between a sense of exhilaration and freedom, and feelings of sadness.  Sometimes tears came to my eyes. He said that maybe we were both too different.  I agreed.  He said that I keep saying that it’s my house, but we both live there, so in a sense it’s our house.  I said that the type of control that he wants over his surroundings is the type of control one has only from owning and living in one’s own house.  I said that we both need to live in our own house.  He said he was glad that I would be OK financially if he was unable to
finish everything.  But he wants to finish the air washer.  He said that otherwise he will come back here and find me dead from the neighbor's smoke.  At one point, he looked at me, and I looked at him.  He said, “I like you.”

But later at home, he started raging at me again, and told me he is a prisoner of this situation.  He said he had promised to deliver all this stuff, so he feels honor-bound to deliver it.  But he is a prisoner of all the smoke-mongers and stalkers, and now me, who is just as bad as a vandal in the yard messing with his car. I told him he is not a prisoner, that he is completely free.  He denied that.

He said that he needs a lot of money to finish these projects (in particular he was talking about the cars), and even just to extract himself from this, he needs a lot of money.  I wish I had a lot of money to give him, but I don’t.  I have already spent more than $130,000 on his projects before I ran out of money four years ago, and I have nothing to show for it except a garage without a door on it, and an unfinished 12x12 shack with a leaking roof.  He seems to think I owe him something.  He says that he has put his life into these projects.  I supported him for years, paid his medical bills (which he had promised to pay back and never did), and even now what he pays does not even completely cover his own food and beer.  Even so, if I could, I would help him extract himself.  I might have to borrow the money.

So I thought we had finally broken up, but now he is a prisoner, stuck here.  I feel that I am in a living hell.  I wish I could find an easy solution.  If anyone has insights, or just acknowledgement about my story, I will appreciate it.

[babyducks]

Hi seekonlypeace,

People with BPD have harmfully intense emotions that change rapidly.   They have poor impulse control.   They have maladaptive coping traits to get their needs met.    They have limited executive function skills, especially when under stress.

People with BPD believe their feeling of the moment is absolutely true and will last for ever.

It felt as if we were breaking up, after all these years.  I felt myself going back and forth between a sense of exhilaration and freedom, and feelings of sadness.  Sometimes tears came to my eyes.

SeekOnlyPeace - if you are waiting for him to make a decision and stick with it,   agree that he should leave, see your point of view and understand it,  I have to tell you the chances of this happening are pretty slim.    He is going to go where ever his emotions push him.    It might be "I'm optional",  it might be "because we both live there it's just as much my house as yours",   it might be "I'm a prisoner".     

The chance of him becoming reasonable and rational and holding on to that through an emotionally challenging conversation is pretty small.    I think you might already know this, right?

So I thought we had finally broken up, but now he is a prisoner, stuck here.  I feel that I am in a living hell.  I wish I could find an easy solution.

I wish there was an easy solution too.    There isn't going to be one.    All of us here have in some way shape or form have struggled with the idea that if change is going to happen we are going to have to be the ones to make it happen.   and that change is not going to be easy because we have people in our life who generate a high amount of conflict.   

I know you said you want certainty.    I will share with you I am not 100% certain I did all the right things in my relationship.   I will also tell you I AM 100% I did everything I could possibly do.

There is a lot about what he wants in your post.  A lot about what he feels and thinks.    What do you want?

'ducks

[seekonlypeace]

Hi 'ducks,
Thanks for writing back to me.  You asked what I want.  Right now I am exhausted, hardly slept at all the past two nights, and just want to sleep.  I went downstairs this morning and found that he had left this message on the table for me:
"I hope that we can find ways to relieve ourselves of despair, and rediscover hopefulness, together.  Hugs, [his name, followed by drawing of a heart]"

I confess that it made me feel a little comforted.  But I still think it’s a good idea for us to live separately, in our own houses that we each bought and own, each with full control over our own house.  We can still be friends and meet together in some third place, on neutral ground.

I guess that's what I really want.  I crave my freedom.  I need to make decisions about my own house without obstruction.  Evidently he needs to make decisions about wherever he lives without obstruction.  So we need to live in two places.  A couple of years ago, he actually had taped up the front door to my house!  It was to reduce smoke leakage around the door, but it felt like a sort of metaphor for my imprisonment in my own house.  I reminded him of that yesterday, and reminded him of one of his rages around that door, when he was shouting, cursing me, and throwing things, but he had forgotten.

At the same time, I enjoy being with him when he is not a controlling ogre.  (Sometimes he has used that word about himself, when he has been capable of accurate reflection -- "ogre".  So I wish we could still get together when not "working".  He has two personalities -- the working guy and the interpersonal guy.  I really can't stand the working guy, who has to be the sole decision-maker, without any input from me, and who is abrasive and harsh.  The interpersonal guy is capable of caring.  More often lately, he is the working guy, even when fixing food in the kitchen, or when even thinking about working.  He claims that he can't mix the two.  Other people I have known seem to have no problem mixing the two.  I think it is a dissociative mechanism he learned during his extremely traumatic childhood.

What I really want is peace.  I seek only peace, just like my name.  I want to stop suffering.  Well, I also want freedom to do what I want with my own possessions, but I want connection.  I don't see evidence that he can live in my house without wanting to control everything about it, because everything in my house is his "work".  To learn anything different would require strong motivation, working with a therapist, and working hard on himself, and even then he might not be able to achieve it.  It's too huge a change for him.  At one time, he promised to go to a therapist, and to work on himself.  But he hasn't done it, and now he says he doesn't need to.  So that means nothing will change. 

So I guess I need to demand that we live apart.  I just need to figure out logistics.  The problem is that it might take a long time.  To do something more quickly would require a lot of money. 

I am so tired and need to go back to bed right now.  Thanks for helping to stimulate my thioughts about all this.  I still have more thinking to do, but I'm so tired.

seekonlypeace

[Lucky Jim]

if you are waiting for him to make a decision and stick with it,   agree that he should leave, see your point of view and understand it,  I have to tell you the chances of this happening are pretty slim.

Hey seekonlypeace, I concur w/Ducks.  Waiting for him to change is likely to be a thankless vigil. If you would like him to leave, you will have to take active steps to carry it out yourself.  Perhaps you could suggest a trial separation as a starting point?  I take it that you live together, yet you have an advantage, which is that you aren't married and don't need to divorce. 

He has rages in which he shouts at me, sometimes for hours.

To me this is verbal abuse, which is unacceptable.  You don't deserve to be treated in this fashion.  You might want to read up on Boundaries under the Tools Button, above.  The problem with abuse is that we Nons tend to minimize or rationalize it, which only prolongs the pain.  I should know; I was formerly married to a pwBPD for 16 years.

LuckyJim

[seekonlypeace]

Hi Lucky Jim,
Thanks for your message.  I think you are right, that I might have to be the one to get him to leave.  But I need to be careful how I do that.  He was the one who yesterday first brought up the idea of leaving.  I think the good part about that is that it makes it safer for me.  If he leaves and it's his idea, that makes it less likely that he will blame me and become violent.  I am very aware that statistically the most dangerous time is during and after a breakup.  On the other hand, he does not have a history of physical violence with me, although there have been some physical events such as throwing things, shoving my chair, pounding on the arm of my chair for emphasis, grabbing my wrists and holding them, and accidentally banging into me and then blaming me.  Other than that, there has not been blatant violence, and he has told me that he would never hurt me.  So I hope I am safe.  But still I think it will help my safety to remind him that leaving is his idea.  He does have access to weapons. 

Yes, we live together, and are not married.  I also have several acres 50 miles away, where he is trying to improve a building into a livable house.  He could move there for a while, whenever he can get it livable enough.  That could be part of the strategy.  I think eventually he will have to move somewhere else where there is less air pollution due to wood smoke.  He is extremely sensitive to that.  It's a major issue in his life.

Just now I read the Boundaries section you referred me to.  I have tried to establish boundaries with him, but I think I need to apply a more structured approach, as suggested in the article.  And then I need to practice it somehow.  I need lots of practice.  His rages are so overpowering that I need to become much stronger, and well-practiced.

Thanks for listening.  I hope that you are healing from the 16 years you spent with the pwBPD.  I am guessing it can take a long time.

seekonlypeace

[Lucky Jim]

If he leaves and it's his idea, that makes it less likely that he will blame me and become violent. . . . .  On the other hand, he does not have a history of physical violence with me, although there have been some physical events such as throwing things, shoving my chair, pounding on the arm of my chair for emphasis, grabbing my wrists and holding them, and accidentally banging into me and then blaming me. 

Hey seekonly, I find it troubling that you are concerned about the possibility of domestic violence in the event you ask him to leave.  That is a big red flag for me.    Is there someone, a close friend or family member, with whom you can confide in?  It might be important to have someone you can trust if things heat up.  Have you considered meeting with an attorney to discuss a strategy?  You might have to take legal action to get him to leave.    Yes, Boundaries are a good place to start.

LuckyJim

[seekonlypeace]

Hi Lucky Jim,
He has told me he would never hurt me.  I might just be overly cautious. I have a friend who has told me I could stay with her if things heat up.  An attorney volunteered that I could give him a 30-day eviction notice, and a restraining order.  But what I have read says that restraining orders are often not effective.  Taking that kind of legal action might be more dangerous than just asking him to leave and helping him develop a plan.  I am saying that because of things I know about him.  I'm seeing a therapist, but have also been thinking about joining a support group sponsored by the local domestic violence organization.  I think they work with people involved in emotional abuse, not just physical abuse.  I think they are used to helping people create exit strategies.  They might be a good resource.  Thanks for your concern and your message.
seekonlypeace

[babyducks]

I think they are used to helping people create exit strategies. 

Hi seekonlypeace,

I was happy to see yo talk about exit strategies.   It's a good idea to sit down and carefully plan out one.    I have heard it suggested to begin to distance yourself while still in the relationship by creating small boundaries.    For instance,  start to separate meal times, so you are not sharing a table several times a day.   Change your schedule so that you may be out of the house one evening a week.   It can be as simple as joining a book club at your local library.    Something new that you are not sharing with him.   

What do you think?   would that help?

'ducks

[seekonlypeace]

Hi 'ducks,
Thanks for your suggestion.  To some extent I have already been doing more and more things by myself without him.  A book I have been reading, "Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist" by Margalis Fjelstad, recommends deciding what kind of life you want, and then just doing it, without asking permission or discussing it, whether you stay with the person or separate.  So I have been going out to play music with people, or to support groups, or with friends, by myself.  And he and I often fix our own meals and eat separately.  In fact, he is the one who suggested that.  I fell into this relationship after losing my husband, and when I was first widowed, eating by myself was one of the most difficult things to endure.  Now I actually enjoy eating alone, and often prefer it, because eating with this guy can be so toxic.  (Often he talks about poisons while we are eating!)  Going out to be with others is also a great way to build a network of people to help support me during a process of separation.  I do need a stronger network, though.  So I need to do more.  Thanks for reminding me of this.

I need to figure out the exit strategy.  It isn't easy.  I had my therapy session today, but found no big answers.  I think the process might take a while.

I need to go sleep.  I had only one hour of sleep last night and am exhausted.

Thanks,
seekonlypeace

[seekonlypeace]

I need to talk and just hope someone will listen.  As you read this, keep in mind that this is my house, my kitchen, and mostly my things.  He came to me with nothing but his skills and just a few tools.  He has told me that because he lives here, this is his house too.  I haven't yet figured out the exit strategy, so he is still here for now. 

Tonight he came home and started talking about his plan to re-do my kitchen with the materials I bought last spring.  He said that we must move everything out of the cabinets into boxes, even though I am not replacing the cabinets, so that the contents don’t get dusty.  Then we can re-organize everything so that only those things that we use are in the cabinets, and the rest are in boxes.

He said that we should move the china that we never use into boxes and store them.  That includes my wedding china and other good china.  I said that I would buy bubble-wrap and wrap each dish so it does not get broken.  He insisted that paper was good enough.  He said he had lots of experience moving dishes wrapped in paper and never had a problem.  I said that I had experience wrapping dishes in paper, and things got broken.  I said I would take ownership of moving the dishes, would think about it, and let him know.  We managed to avoid a major argument.

Later I was fixing dinner, and realized I had forgotten to add oregano to the tomato sauce, which he likes so well.  I got a bag of oregano, since there was none in the small shakers, and brought it to the kitchen.  I remembered that he did not want me to put my hand into the bag because of cleanliness considerations.  So I lifted some out with a spoon and scattered the oregano.  But I had gotten too much.  So I dropped some back into the bag with the spoon.  He became furious, and said I should never put herbs back into the bag once I get them out.  There could be mold, dust, etc.  He didn’t shout, but went on and on with his lecture.  He made me promise I would never do it again.  So I had to say that I would never do it again.  He continued to lecture.  By now I had lost my appetite.  So I told him I felt ill, covered my food, and went upstairs.  That enfuriated him.  He said, “You’re always doing this to me.”

He came upstairs to talk to me as I lay in the darkness.  He said, “I’m going to talk, and you must just listen and not interrupt me.” Then he said he had already told me not to put anything into the bag.  “So why did you do it after I had already told you? I will need an answer.” He started to leave.  I said, “Do you need an answer now?”  He said “No, go on and do whatever you’re doing.  I wlll need an answer later.”

The answer was that I thought his rule was not to put my hand into the bag.  I didn’t know he objected to putting a clean spoon into the bag. 

So what do you all think?  Do you put a spoon into a bag of herbs, or not?  Is this even reasonable?  Does anyone else refrain from this?  It's more his lecturing tone that disturbed me, but I wonder if it's even a reasonable rule.

seekonlypeace

[seekonlypeace]

There is much more that happened after the episode with the bag of herbs, this same night.  To summarize, it escalated into a rage, and he threatened to leave. 

He went into the kitchen and I heard a big crash.  Apparently he moved the dish and pot cover off the table and broke the dish.  I had used them to cover my food while I was resting.  Then when I removed them, I put the cover over the dish.  He probably slid the pot cover off the table and the dish underneath fell on the floor.  But he blamed me.  He came upstairs and said that metal conducts heat as well as air, meaning that the pot cover didn’t help contain heat in my food.  He said, “I’m beginning to think that what you’re doing is irrational and unscientific, and I need to get out of this.”

Later he came back upstairs and said that he thinks I am personally trying to undermine him, and destroy our health.  He shouted at me and said he wants out.  He wants me to figure out the exit strategy.  He needs just enough money to keep him in beans, potatoes, and kefir.  The rest he will do himself.  And he will save up enough money and then will leave.

He came back upstairs again and spoke more quietly.  He accused me of controlling him, acting passive aggressive, and not telling him what I was thinking.  He gave this evening’s events as an example.  I asked him just to think objectively about what had happened.  Instead, he insisted that I must only speak with “I” sentences.  I must not say “you” or his name.

He lectured to me about the essence of good relationships and good communication.  How would he know about good relationships?  Why doesn’t he ask me?  I am the one who had a good relationship for 35 years.  He has gone from one relationship to the next.  Instead, he brought up things about my late husband that I had confided in him, bringing them up now to use against me.  He conjectured that I was incapable of trusting him because of things that happened with my husband.   He conjectured that a question I asked about my credit card showed that I was constantly checking the credit card website to find out what he was doing, because of a lack of trust.   He complained that I still hadn’t gotten rid of things that belonged to my late husband. 

He went on and on, and then he complained that I hadn’t told him what I was thinking.  He complained that I go out with friends and communicate with them instead of with him.  He complained that I don't appreciate all that he does for me.  He asked what I need.  I said I had already told him many times.  He said that I said I need peacefulness, but that just means complacency.  I said the two are not the same.  He said he did not want to argue philosophy.  I said that I tried to talk with him, but he interrupts me, outshouts me, and demonstrates that he does not want to hear what I have to say.  So I had given up.  He interrupted me even then, and said that it doesn’t matter how you communicate, just that you communicate. 

I don’t agree.  Long ago, even he agreed to our ground rules for communication that we both worked out.  But now he completely disregards the ground rules to which he agreed. 

Then he walked past and said, “I don’t ever want to hurt your feelings. Ever.”

I am feeling hopeless.  Maybe I should just agree that it's time for the exit strategy.  Maybe I should find out how much money he is trying to save.  Maybe I can find some and help it to happen more quickly.

seekonlypeace

[babyducks]

SeekOnlyPeace,

Hi.     I'm glad you are posting and working through what is going on with your housemate with us here.

Have you heard of F.O.G. ?   Its an acronym standing for Fear, Obligation and Guilt.   When we are deep in the fog we are afraid we didn't do the right thing,   we feel a duty to put someone else's needs before our own, we feel we have to take care of another human being perfectly.

Let's try to blow away some of the FOG here.   Okay?

He said, “I’m beginning to think that what you’re doing is irrational and unscientific, and I need to get out of this.”

What I see when I read this is blameshifting, projection, manipulation.    He is, subtly, making your responsible for his discomfort.   At the expense of your own comfort.   Do you want to live scientifically in your own home?    Do you place any value in living in clean room type conditions in your kitchen?   

Later he came back upstairs and said that he thinks I am personally trying to undermine him, and destroy our health.  He shouted at me and said he wants out.  He wants me to figure out the exit strategy.  He needs just enough money to keep him in beans, potatoes, and kefir.  The rest he will do himself.  And he will save up enough money and then will leave.

People with disorders of this nature put a lot of effort into getting their needs met.   Their needs have to be met exactly the way they want,   exactly when they want.   Except like any human being their needs vary over time and with changes of mood.    which leaves you and I always holding the bag. 

Let me ask you a question,   do you think he will really save any money and make a plan to leave?
 

He came back upstairs again and spoke more quietly... .He lectured to me.  ... ., bringing them up now to use against me... .He conjectured ... .He went on and on,

You are not required to stay in a conversation that you feel uncomfortable with or about.    If you feel the conversation is not productive and just going in circles over and over you have the right, you have the obligation to yourself to stop the conversation.    You can do it compassionately,   you can do it kindly.    It's perfectly fine to say I don't want to talk about this any longer please leave my room.

I know this isn't about herbs.   But.    For what it's worth I think you should do anything you want, any way you want with that bag of oregano.

'ducks

[Cat Familiar]

I agree with everything 'ducks has said. Having been in a relationship with similar dynamics to yours, I believe this guy is not only BPD but also NPD. Only his opinion seems to matter and he seems to think he's an expert on everything.

Having had a food business for over 15 years, inspected multiple times by the Ccounty, then later, with new products by the State, I feel I have some grounds to address the clean spoon/oregano question. IMHO, his claim is total BS.  In addition, I grow and dehydrate my own herbs. He is living in fantasyland if he thinks a clean spoon is a bacteria vector, compared to what plant material goes through from harvest to packaging.

You seem like a very kind, tolerant person who has bent over backwards to accommodate this demanding and un-compassionate man. It's your house, your things. You have every right to do things just exactly as you want. He is an interloper you've allowed to stay and overstay with you. It's time you take care of your own needs. He won't look out for them, so you must.

[seekonlypeace]

Hi 'ducks and Cat Familiar, thanks for your supportive messages.  He rages for hours over the most trivial details, or so it seems to me.  But today he expressed some regret that he overdid it.  I don’t remember his exact words.  Other than that comment, he acted as if nothing had happened.  He was very calm, worked in the yard, talked about the kitchen replacement project, and fixed dinner.  I had trouble sleeping last night and am exhausted, so I want only to sleep. 

‘ducks, you asked if I thought he really will save money and make a plan to leave.  He has never been able to save money in his life, and he admits to that.  As soon as he gets it, he spends it.  So because of his history, he may have trouble saving.  And previous women have had to throw him out.  I know that from his stories.   I think underneath it all, he has an aversion to separation.  He has been telling me for more than 7 years that he is about to camp out on my property 50 miles from here where he has been supposedly building something for me.  But he has never even once camped out overnight there.  I think it’s fear.  So I probably will have to get him to leave, figure out his exit strategy, and help him come up with money.  I admit that it’s very hard for me. 

I wonder if I should ask him how much money he thinks he needs before he can leave, so I can assess the situation.  I am almost afraid to ask, because it might be far more than I can help with.  But without the money to leave, my fear is that he will stretch out the process over many months, or even years more.

Cat Familiar, you said that he is not only BPD but NPD.  I think he is also OCD (obsessive-compulsive) and paranoid schizophrenic.  He has a combination of many disorders.  His childhood was incredibly traumatic, and he is very damaged.  Thanks for your comment about the oregano.  I have noticed that he himself removes herbs from the bags often by wrapping the bag around the mouth of a small jar and shaking part of the contents into the jar.  But that exposes the inside of the bag to the outside of the small jars.  That doesn’t seem any cleaner than using a clean spoon.  Maybe he was objecting more to putting the contents back into the bag that I had just removed in the spoon.  In any case, I think it’s OCD behavior.  The whole incident, including his lecture, and insistence on my reciting back to him words he tells me to say, demonstrates his strong need to control me.

Yes, I feel I have bent over backwards to accommodate him.  Those were almost my very words to him at one point.  He said that I do not appreciate him, but I am not sure he appreciates me. 

I could go on and on.  But I appreciate your validation that I am not somehow off-base myself.  Thanks so much for listening and giving me some feedback.  I need to sleep now.

seekonlypeace

[babyducks]

Hi seekonlypeace

I hope you got some sleep and are feeling a little better today?    You've mentioned a couple of times you aren't sleeping well,  have you discussed that with your Therapist and your Doctor?

Would you mind if we went back to talking about the FOG again?    Specifically the obligation part?

  So I probably will have to get him to leave, figure out his exit strategy, and help him come up with money.  I admit that it’s very hard for me. 

I wonder if I should ask him how much money he thinks he needs before he can leave, so I can assess the situation.  I am almost afraid to ask, because it might be far more than I can help with.  But without the money to leave, my fear is that he will stretch out the process over many months, or even years more.

Yes, I feel I have bent over backwards to accommodate him. 

LuckyJim mentioned upstream about consulting with an attorney to see what your options are.   Have you considered that?    Do you have a lawyer who you feel comfortable with?   How can you find a lawyer?    Lawyers have confidentiality requirements, so anything you share will be private between the two of you.

It appears to me that you are under no obligation to provide him with money to leave.   You may be able to sweeten the deal with a token gift.     

I think it's important that you know exactly what you are legally obligated to do, as opposed to what he thinks he is entitled too.     

Right now this exists only in your head, in your thoughts, to discuss this with other people makes it become more real.   More likely.    When you talk about it with others it will help you figure what you can and can not do.

'ducks

[GaGrl]

I agree that he has a strong paranoia streak at work here. My concern is that he may be doing "work" at your house that results in more damage and need to fix than the benefit he thinks he is providing. Cutting into driveways and basements sounds strange.

A conversation with a lawyer is in order.

[seekonlypeace]

Hi ‘ducks and Gagrl,
Yes, I slept better last night.  I think I got 7 hours of sleep.  I feel better today.  I’ve talked about insomnia with my physician.  I’m reluctant to take a lot of pharmaceuticals.  Some of them have side effects that increase the probability of dementia.  I’ve had this problem before I met my housemate, but it gets worse when he rages, or when I lie awake trying to figure out what to do about him.  Reading books about BPD at bedtime doesn’t help either.

I spoke with an attorney a little over a year ago, about common-law marriage, cohabitation agreements, protecting myself financially, eviction orders, protection orders, a rental agreement, criminal and liability protection, and a contract he had been wanting to draw up with me.  It sounds as though I am already protected.  The attorney said that I do not owe him anything.  But she recommended a rental agreement if he lives on the property in Indiana. She also recommended not drawing up a single overall contract.  It’s too complex, vague, and open-ended.  Instead, I should draw up a contract for each individual project to be performed, and specify cost, timeframe, etc.  I plan to go back to her at the time when I need to draw up any of these documents, if and when I get to that point.  Or if I have some very specific questions.

I don’t feel that I owe this guy anything.  But if I want to hasten the process so that he is not hanging on forever, I might need to give him some money.  Hopefully not a huge amount.  It’s not that I feel an obligation.  It’s just that it could help facilitate the process.  He needs a car that runs, so he can drive away.  He can fix one of these cars, but he might need parts.  And he needs to be able to get somewhere, figure out where he can stay where there isn’t much smoke, and find a place to live.  Then it needs to be cheap enough that he can support himself.  Maybe I can just rent my property to him, but I think he might not want to stay there indefinitely.  He complains too much about smoke there.

Gagrl, I have also been concerned about work he does that I must un-do.  He removed my garage door and replaced it with a wall and a regular door with doorknob.  He did that to make the basement airtight, to reduce leakage of smoke into the house.  But that reduces the value of my house, because now I have a house with no garage.  So I must replace it with a garage door, after he leaves and before I sell.  I think I might bring in a structural engineer to inspect the basement before I begin the process of preparing to sell.  He created an air duct that runs from the woods across my yard, under the driveway, into my basement, to bring in clean air.  But I might have to un-do that.  There might be other things I will need to un-do. 

He thought he was helping me, but he was doing many of these things for himself.  When he moved in here, I never dreamed he would try to make major alterations to my house.  I thought our agreement was that he would help me to build on my land 50 miles from here, and that he would mostly live there.  But he has never stayed out there even one night.  And he seems to feel the need to alter his environment wherever he is.  I objected to many of these projects, but he raged and bullied me.  I got him to make some concessions, but it was a struggle.  He is still bitter that I created “obstacles” to his work.

Thank you for listening, giving feedback and support, and providing ideas for me to pursue.  Maybe I do need to talk to the attorney again, but I need to make sure I know all the questions to ask.  They are expensive.  But it is a good suggestion.

Seekonlypeace

[seekonlypeace]

One day last week, after working hard all day, back-breaking work, to bag leaves in my back yard, I was working hard to fix dinner.  I was drinking a glass of wine, trying to relax from the stress of the day.  My housemate insisted on talking about his plans to put in a septic system behind the structure on my property by cutting down trees and amending the soil.  He said that he wanted my input and would listen to it.  I gently pointed out that his plan was exactly what experts on septic systems advise not to do.  They emphasize that the soil should not be disturbed.  He dismissed all that.  He also already knows that I want to minimize cutting of trees. 

Then he returned to his insistence that I must pull up the carpeting on the stairs and in the upstairs hallway.  The other night, he had insisted, against my loud protests, on yanking up a piece of the carpet.  The result was dust flying everywhere, and my cat has asthma!  He had insisted that there was hardwood floor underneath the carpet and that nothing needed to be done except pull it up, right now!  I knew that there was not hardwood underneath.  I knew that I could not pull it up without a replacement covering, and I needed to research a replacement that would be non-toxic and hypoallergenic.  That research would take time.  Actually doing it will take money, which I have not yet saved up yet.  I have many, many things on my plate to do.  I cannot do this instantaneously.  But he had insisted.  This was extremely stressful to me, because I cannot do it all at once.  Anyway, now he brought it up again and insisted that the carpet could be pulled up instantly and replaced with some kind of cloth.  That is unacceptable to me.  Moreover, I was trying to relax with a nice glass of wine and de-stress for a while, but he was applying this additional stress!  I felt at my breaking point.  I shouted at him to stop, and he escaped to the basement.  That was fine with me.  I enjoyed finishing my meal in peace alone.

I did not feel proud of myself for shouting.  I feel it is better to model calm behavior to him, rather than doing what he does.  I do not want to become like him.  And I have read in books that it is best not to give into the temptation to rage back at the one who rages.  But when I told this story to my therapist, she thought it was good that I had shouted!  What do you all think?  She said that it got the effect I wanted, which was for him to stop and leave. 

I am angry at him right now.  Tonight he got drunk again.  At one point, he complained about bowls I had bought to replace ones we had broken.  I had spent hours searching for the right bowls, and found the closest ones I could, and ordered and paid for them.  He has been complaining about these bowls ever since he started using them.  He complained that they were too flat and their sides were not tall enough.  But I had done the best I could.  He said, "We still don't have any bowls!"  Tonight he said that the bowls did not have sides, so that caused him to spill tomato soup on my carpeted stairs.  Then he went to bed and instantly fell into deep sleep.  I examined the stairs and found that he had not made any attempt to clean up after himself.  So I cleaned it up, or it would not have been cleaned.  It's an old carpet with other stains, the carpet he tried to pull up last week.  So he probably thought it didn't matter anyway.  But I think that's no excuse.  I went down to the kitchen and found that he had started cutting into a large avocado but left it on the counter, wasting it.  He also leaves popcorn and other food all over the floor around his desk.

This is not the way that I used to live, or that I want to live.  More and more I feel that he needs to move to his own house, one that he has paid for himself, where he can control everything without having to consult someone else, which he resents having to do.

But he has entangled himself so deeply into my house and property that it will be extremely complicated to extricate him.  He has a tiny income, no assets, an unstable ancient car, thousands of tools spread all around, including two large trucks, most of which I bought, many large projects in various stages, and nowhere else to go. 

But my original question was whether or not it was a good idea to shout at him last week, or if that was not the best strategy.  I was surprised at what my therapist said.  I would like to know the thoughts of others dealing with this kind of situation.  Thanks.
seekonlypeace