If you had the chance/choice what would you do

[Confusedpe]

I have been reading and posted here before but I am at a stage right now where I need to make a decision fast. I’ll skip the finer details and just summarize everything -

- broke up with ex BPD Gf (undiagnosed, but has all traits except for suicide attempts)
- been apart for 2 years but stupidity stayed in contact (she makes it very hard to cut contact, once I try and go no contact I am bombarded with non stop missed calls, texts, emails, Facebook texts, WhatsApp texts, messenger texts, pigeons foxes etc.
- she’s in extreme charm mode but still plays the victim
- I can  walk away right now, not married, no kids
- I have been struggling to meet a woman where I have the same connection with (WHEN SHE IS ON GOOD BEHAVIOUR*, I think her absolutely amazing looks haven’t helped me and made it harder to walk away, I was probably punching above my weight divison there

I have options, I know it’s all in my hands, should i give her one more chance and see or just leave? She has been chasing me like crazy for 2 years now... .


What would you do?
Did anyone have this same decision and decide to stay and regret it? Or possibly left and was happy about their choice etc?
-

[Panda39]

Why go back to a relationship that didn't work the first time?  The past is usually a pretty good indicator of what her behavior is likely to be.  Yes, I can hear you thinking, "but people can change" and yes they can, but has she done anything in the time you have been apart to address her issues?  Have you been working on yours (because it does take two to tango)?  What will make this time around any different from the last time?

You might also want to read your past posts as a reminder of what you experienced the first time.

I'm a believer in moving forward not back.

Panda39

[Enabler]

Knowing what you know now about BPD and your ex, what do you think the likely effect will be when she successfully enmeshes with you and you become fully committed to her?

Based on what you know, why is she behaving this way at the moment?

[Lady Itone]

Man, do I hear you.

My ex gf was 14 years younger than me and so darned gorgeous. I've mostly dated men, but for this women, I came out as bisexual to family, coworkers, everyone. I could just stare at her for hours. We broke up for the zillienth time about 3 1/2 weeks ago. But this time is different, she's getting out of psyche ward today (3rd time in 2 years) heading to a 90 residential therapy program, then presumably moving to a city 4 hours away.

I'm 45 years old, and worried I will never feel so attracted and connected to another person again, and I will probably never again attract anyone so physically appealing. On the other hand, this is the same person who trashed my house, stole my keys, bruised up my arms, and abandoned me during a Cat 4 hurricane. Forget that. She brought very little to the table besides her sex appeal--not much help financially, socially, or emotionally, I was really doing the heavy lifting.

Are the highs worth the lows? For a while, for me, they were. The amazing sex and affection, the way I felt so electrified in her presence. I have always been a sucker for physical beauty, plus, she really is a sweethearted woman when she's not having a meltdown. When things were good between us, I just glowed. Everyone commented on it. But then, the physical fights, the crazymaking behavior, the constant crises... .at times I was utterly drained by her. Now, I'm in painful, humiliating withdrawl.

I believe she does love me, she can't help what she is, abuse=love to her. She also is offering to do anything she can to keep me in her life, paying me money for the things she destroyed, trying to plan future vacations, etc...   No one will ever be as shall we say exciting? as her, but maybe whatever comes next is gonna be a different kind of love, one that doesn't leave me shaking and crying and feeling so abandoned half the time.

You are not alone.

[Notwendy]

I don't think anyone can tell you what to do- that is something each person needs to decide for themselves.

It isn't just about the other person- it is us that led us into the relationship- attracted the other person and felt attraction to them.

The question isn't just- do I want to be with this person, but do I want to be in a relationship with these dynamics? What I have read is that without doing some personal work on ourselves and our part in this, there is a likelihood of repeating the dynamics with someone else in another relationship.

We can do this kind of work in or out of a relationship. Naturally,  being single and not having children makes the choice of breaking up less complicated than if someone were married and or had children. But IMHO- if you choose this - there will be some personal work ahead of you if you want a different kind of relationship.

[formflier]

What would you do?
Did anyone have this same decision and decide to stay and regret it? Or possibly left and was happy about their choice etc?
-

Well... board guidelines prevent us from directly telling you what to do.

Big truth in life:  The best way to understand if someone is serious is to watch their actions.  If you no longer want to "deal with" BPDish behavior, T is really the only place that has a chance to reduce it.  T over the long term.

If she wants to come together with you in an effort to build a healthy relationship then she will do that if invited.  If she doesn't do that when invited, pay attention to her actions... not her words.

I will tell you that you seem to have all of your analysis worked out in a sound and thoughtful way.  

What's holding you back from following the conclusions you have apparently made?  

FF

[SamwizeGamgee]

Start using what you know to be most likely true while you make the decision:
1. She won't change.  If you've seen the beast of BPD behavior, you know things will cycle.

2. People who have escaped a BPD relationship and have gone back report that things get bad again, sometimes worse as the returning person is "punished."
 
3. You have one life to live.  IF the past was hurtful because of your relationship with uBPDgf, why repeat the hurt?  That said, we all have faults. You must decide if the cost is worth the benefit.  I'm not sure where I would land on someone's balance sheet of being a good mate either.

4. You have one life to live.  There are available healthy people out there who would like a relationship with a healthy, available person.  You can find love again.  I kind of believe that attraction can be "trained."  As you learn about yourself and emotional health, you will likely be able to re-asses what is attractive to you.  A hot body with a toxic soul is just not good in the long run.

Footnote, wise men say "don't make a baby with a crazy woman." 

[flourdust]

Nothing will be different if nothing is different. In other words ... .what would have to change for a relationship to be other than just a rerun of the last one that crashed and burned? How likely is that to happen?

[formflier]

Nothing will be different if nothing is different.  

This really is the focus for you.  Furthermore, should you decided to move forward in a recycle, consider what can be different that is 100% under your control... .

Why is that important?

Start using what you know to be most likely true while you make the decision:
1. She won't change.  If you've seen the beast of BPD behavior, you know things will cycle.

Flourdust and Samwize have presented critical "truths" that you need to reflect on and "accept", should you decide to go forward.

I'll share a story that is personal to my relationship.  My wife was spending money I brought in, in ways that were outside my value system.  Other times she spent money on things that were "inside" my value system but that for one reason or another we had agreed on different budget priorities.

The only thing that was 100% under my control was where the money was deposited.  Once I got the money away from joint accounts, the problems I identified stopped... .because she is forced to ask each and every time she would like access to any of that money.  Once I send the money to her, I also understand I've let go of control.

So... ."I solved a relationship problem".  This was a good thing.  The downside.  "Solving" things in a r/s with a pwBPD is often like a game of whack a mole.  Solve one thing and the dysfunction shows up somewhere else.

Crazy isn't going to stay in the closet

Now, someone committed to T and to a different way of life may get control over impulses.  That will take a loong time to see if that improves things.

FF

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Confusedpe, We can't tell you what to do.  You're the Captain of your own ship.  Many of us, including me, have recycled, only to wind up in the same place, except with more pain.  How long were you together?  What are your gut feelings about the relationship?  What would you like to see happen?  Apart from her looks, what is it about her that attracted you in the first place?  Fill us in, when you can.

LuckyJim

[Confusedpe]

Thanks to everyone for the support and responses

If I recycle with her this would be the 4th recycle. I actually have been here before only the time in between was shorter.

- first break up I went 1 year without her then got back, she was worse than the first time
- second I went 6 months, bad again but this time I chopped her out quicker as my tolerance level was very minimal

She has been in ‘chase and charm’ mode for 2 years? Is that even possible? Has anyone been chased and hovered for that long before? *note when she doesn’t hear something she likes I see that nasty side come out briefly then it retreats**

Also I do agree they definitely punish you for leaving them when you take them back ... .

I just don’t understand the following things

- she’s very attractive I see men looking at her all the time, she could have a line longer than Black Friday queues waiting for her if she wanted so why chase me so much? I thought long about this one, I am well rounded I guess, I have my own company, my family r nice people and so are my friends etc, however she is not materialistic and makes a lot of money herself so I doubt it’s for any financial gain? The only thing I can think of is maybe because I ‘baby’ her. She seems very lazy to take care of mundane tasks we all have in life such as paying bills, organization etc? Could she see me as someone who will be her caretaker possibly?

- I should also note that she holds herself very well amongst other people, close friends and family are warning me off her however I am constantly getting distant mutual friends approaching me telling me I should be with her, she loves me, always talks about me etc

So hard

[Enabler]

Sh wants to be nurtured like a child. You are the babysitter or parent. She has likely been in her mind a victim for many many years. Do you want to adopt the rescuer role again?

[Confusedpe]

Sh wants to be nurtured like a child. You are the babysitter or parent. She has likely been in her mind a victim for many many years. Do you want to adopt the rescuer role again?

She always Tells me that I remind her of her father who she believes always took care of her etc ... .your probably right I guess
She also loves to play victim in every single situation

[hope2727]

I am sorry you are struggling with this. I can only tell you this. With every rekindling of our relationship the cycle got shorter and shorter until it was basically days not months. I suspect that has happened to you too. The fundamental problems still existed and my partner wouldn't own them for very long (if at all) before he had to blame shift and turn it around on me. He replaced me in a matter of days and stayed with her but had already cheated on her only months in to their relationship. I know it wouldn't work out if he came back because change is so hard and sustaining it is even harder. Just try sticking to a diet or flossing everyday and see how long you last. Now imagine changing your whole belief system forever!

Having said that I miss him everyday. I cry over it sometimes all these years later. He is so dear to my heart. IF he came around... .sigh. I don't know. I suspect that he is my kryptonite and I would cave in but it would still fail. I was devastated. He destroyed my world and I am still trying to rebuild. I can't take that again. I deserve better. So do you.

[defogging]

Just curious - Have you dated anyone else in the last two years while she's been chasing?  I think that would do wonders to give you perspective and help make your choice as to whether you want to go back or not.  There are a lot of mentally healthy women online looking for dates.  I don't mean you have to be looking for the perfect partner, but go on some first dates with a few different ones and see what's out there.  Have some fun and companionship, doesn't need to get serious unless it happens to go that way.

I'm not going to tell you what to do, but it seems to me like you have a decision made up in your mind, and are having trouble following through with it.  That's understandable.  I would listen to the close family members/friends over the casual ones.  I can relate to how casual friends have no clue what's really going on, at this point I don't discuss anything with my casual friends as what's really happening would sound insane to them.

[Confusedpe]

Just curious - Have you dated anyone else in the last two years while she's been chasing?  I think that would do wonders to give you perspective and help make your choice as to whether you want to go back or not.  There are a lot of mentally healthy women online looking for dates.  I don't mean you have to be looking for the perfect partner, but go on some first dates with a few different ones and see what's out there.  Have some fun and companionship, doesn't need to get serious unless it happens to go that way.

I'm not going to tell you what to do, but it seems to me like you have a decision made up in your mind, and are having trouble following through with it.  That's understandable.  I would listen to the close family members/friends over the casual ones.  I can relate to how casual friends have no clue what's really going on, at this point I don't discuss anything with my casual friends as what's really happening would sound insane to them.

Thanks for the response. I actually have been on dates and seen some girls. I have seen how some of these women are so different, great girls with good hearts BUT, and there is always a BUT I don’t feel attachment/attraction to them like I did for this one

I know this sounds really weird and it’s probably a very bad way to be and what gets me in trouble however when I meet a girl, if I am not swept of my feet I just won’t be that interested. It’s shallow I know because essentially I am basing my attraction on physical appearance alone, however that’s the first indicatior if I want to talk to her or not.

I don’t know if it’s a matter of not being attracted to these new potential women or the fact that I am not over my BPD ex and my heart just won’t allow me?

[Lalathegreat]

Oh yes - that damned attraction... .ugh. Before I scare people - NO! I will never see my ex again, he is UNSAFE.

But... .

One of the biggest issues I had when trying to work out whether or not to leave was the Intensity of the physical attraction I had for him. And the sexual chemistry initially was electric. Now that part went to ___ eventually with everything else,  but he had a way of pulling it out just enough to keep me hoping there would be more.

So attraction is a factor - not an insignificant one. I get it.

One of the things that I am attempting to make peace with now is that I MAY never end up having that “thing” with anyone else. And part of me is really struggling to let that go. But did it outweigh the damage he caused me physically and emotionally? Not even close.

Don’t take that to mean I’m telling you what to do. I’m just answering the question about what *I* would have done if I could have known then what I know now. And I would have ran.

Lala

[Confusedpe]

Went on a casual date with a potential new partner yesterday
No feelings

That’s probably the 10th girl I’ve tried dating

I think I’m stuck forever, I should just take her back and ride that coaster the good and the bad

The good and the bad are better than nothing at all, even though I am certain it will most likely be 90% bad 10% good eventually

[formflier]

No feelings

 

Why would you have feelings on a casual date? 

I'm going to give a nod to BabyDucks, who first used this analogy.  Put things in their own buckets... .deal with one bucket at a time.

The "bucket" containing how you "attach" or "feel" about other girls is separate from your pwBPD.  Lots of boundaries likely crossed there... .not a good example to follow.

Deal with that feeling separately... .perhaps in T.

OK... .stand by for weird FF analogy.  I hope it works.

You walk up to a cliff and jump off... .it's a bit farther down that you think and when you hit, you get hurt... bad.  However... .it was exhilarating to leap off that cliff.

You get fixed up and go hop of "normal" cliffs.  You have "safe landings"... nothing gets hurt.  Yet... .it doesn't feel the same as when you got hospitalized.

You wonder if you should go jump off the big cliff again... .

What to do?

Did it work?  Best I could do on short notice.   

FF

[Confusedpe]

Why would you have feelings on a casual date? 

I'm going to give a nod to BabyDucks, who first used this analogy.  Put things in their own buckets... .deal with one bucket at a time.

The "bucket" containing how you "attach" or "feel" about other girls is separate from your pwBPD.  Lots of boundaries likely crossed there... .not a good example to follow.

Deal with that feeling separately... .perhaps in T.

OK... .stand by for weird FF analogy.  I hope it works.

You walk up to a cliff and jump off... .it's a bit farther down that you think and when you hit, you get hurt... bad.  However... .it was exhilarating to leap off that cliff.

You get fixed up and go hop of "normal" cliffs.  You have "safe landings"... nothing gets hurt.  Yet... .it doesn't feel the same as when you got hospitalized.

You wonder if you should go jump off the big cliff again... .

What to do?

Did it work?  Best I could do on short notice.   

FF

I get what your saying and I understand that the thrill won’t be as strong but I can’t even picture myself with these girls let alone make anything official with them

I just feel extremely stuck

[Notwendy]

It is interesting what our "attraction" is made up of. I have read that it is influenced by our early years and our FOO.

I don't agree with being with someone for whom we don't have any "chemistry" but I also think that if we are attracted to people who we know are not good for us, it is something to look at.

We may also be attracted to drama, and I think that is something we can change with personal work.

I understand the desire to be with someone, but is it something we have to have? It is OK to not be dating or in a relationship as well. I think in general, it's a good thing to be OK with being single while also in a relationship, rather than feel we have to be in one.

I think with personal work, we can adjust what we are attracted to and who we attract- that is if we want to do that. There is instant attraction and also attraction that builds over time. It is also said that we attract and are attracted to other people who match us emotionally in some way, so if we are attracted to disordered people, then we can work on our own dysfunctions and relationship skills to change that.

I also think it is hard to have feelings for someone when we are still attached to someone else. I recall in college I knew a couple of guys who were just out of a relationship. They were really good guys- I had not met my H yet and think we could have dated in another situation, but they knew themselves and were not ready. I have also been in this situation- not ready to date after a relationship. It is OK to just not date until you are ready- but it doesn't mean being alone- you can do things with friends.

Or accept that we want what we want and accept that if we are attracted to high intensity relationships- this is the way it is.

[Confusedpe]

I completely understand where you are all coming from but I think there’s some misunderstanding here

I HATE the person she becomes once were in an official relationship ‘inset all BPD traits’ and I LOVE the person she is when I got her on her toes and I am
Not officially with her, just hanging out with her etc

This is what kills me, why can’t she just be NORMAL when we are together then we would be absolutely fine
And it pisses me off because it’s very clear that she can be normal, she just chose not to when we’re officially together

No one compares to her when she’s good... .on the same token no one compares to her when she’s bad

I need to decide ASAP. IF I go NC and see her move on it will destroy me... .maybe that’s why I’ve kept a communication door open while I play the field and look for something better... .this is probably my biggest mistake

[SamwizeGamgee]

Reading your comments leads me to think that your deeper feelings (and defended position) is that you want a relationship with her.  There’s the “Staying” board with active help on how to navigate, manage, and improve your relationship with a BPD partner. 
You are free to choose your actions.  I believe that everyone on these message boards wants things to be better. There are several ways to attempt that.  Others here have given fair warning, and I think you know the downsides already.  I think you are also trying to reconcile your rational mind with your passionate heart.  That’s not a comfortable place to remain, but, it is possible, in your own time. 

[Notwendy]

This is what kills me, why can’t she just be NORMAL when we are together then we would be absolutely fine
And it pisses me off because it’s very clear that she can be normal, she just chose not to when we’re officially together

No one compares to her when she’s good... .on the same token no one compares to her when she’s bad

Someone on these boards described BPD as a disorder of attachment. This is why it affects the most intimate relationships the most- and explains why this woman appears "normal" when she is not in a relationship with you, and the issues are there when she is.

Being in a relationship with her would mean accepting the whole person. She is both. It isn't a choice for her. There are ways to work on your part of the relationship, but any relationship involves the whole of two people, not one side of them.

[Confusedpe]

Maybe I should focus my attention on how to improve a relationship woth her once I’m back in it officially

Wish I could test her, but I know she won’t show her full destruction until she is absolutely comfortable first and knows I have cemented her in my life again

[SamwizeGamgee]

Forewarned is forearmed.

[Skyhawk]

I won't offer advice, only my personal experience.

I was in your exact situation, although she hadn't been diagnosed with BPD, and probably only showed a few traits at that time. I broke it off because I knew it wasn't right, and I could see bits of crazy come out every now and then. But it didn't take, and we were back together shortly after.

Six years later I have two children with her, I am divorced, broke from constant legal expenses, in therapy and on meds for anxiety, and struggling to maintain a new *healthy* relationship with somebody who is now also having anxiety issues due to my ex.

For the first couple of years, I was the center of her universe. She would do ANYTHING for me, and I ate it up. But eventually that wears off, as it appears you have seen. For us, that happened right after the birth of our younger child. I quickly went from being idealized and admired to loathed. What was once a fun and loving relationship turned into constant fights, accusations, blame, manipulation and threats. She threatened to leave me if I didn't do things for her (take her to Disney, dance with her, etc), and I gave in every time trying to save the relationship. It wasn't until my mother, who has been married for over 30 years, said "Skyhawk, what do you think it's doing to your kids to see their father being treated this way?" 

I filed for divorce the next day. She moved on immediately, posting personal ads on Craigslist, and rubbing it in my face that she was out sleeping around, all the while I was at home caring for the kids. She thought this would get me to realize how much I missed her, but it only reinforced how badly we needed to get away from her.

Once she finally realized I was serious about leaving her, she began begging me to take her back, buying me gifts, leaving love letters at my house for me, and calling me at all hours. I was always firm, and she would very quickly show her true colors and resort to name calling and blaming, only to immediately go back to begging me to take her back.

It was, and will continue to be, an emotional roller coaster. I cannot say if anybody would have been able to sway me when I initially decided to take her back, even had I known what she would eventually be diagnosed with. It is further complicated by knowing that had I really ended it, I wouldn't have my two wonderful children. But taking the kids out of the picture, I absolutely wish I could go back and make myself walk away.

A former boss of mine gave me advice one time regarding hanging onto an employee that I knew wouldn't work out, but I really enjoyed having around. He said "Sometimes the best way to fill a hole is to make a hole". I have taken this to heart in both my professional and personal life. If I know something is going to end eventually, why not end it now?

Of course, it is always easier to give somebody advice from the outside looking in. Whatever your decision, I hope things work out for you.

[formflier]

This is what kills me, why can’t she just be NORMAL when we are together then we would be absolutely fine
And it pisses me off because it’s very clear that she can be normal, she just chose not to when we’re officially together

 

No... .no she CAN'T choose. 

Take a big pause.  If you "frame" this as a matter of choice, you are doomed to keep chasing your a$$ in frustration of trying to "reason with her" to make better choices.

Choices take executive control, executive control takes emotions under control, pwBPD sometimes loose control of their emotions.  It would be incorrect to see their decisions as rational choices.

I'm no expert on psychopaths, but I think rational choices to do evil is more down that line thinking.

Notwendy is spot on to say/explain this only comes up in the most intimate of relationships.  Personally, through therapy I am amazed at how much better my relationship is with my wife when I make choices to lessen intimacy.

Yes, that is sad (and I do miss it) but it's also a pragmatic choice for the good of the entire family.


FF

[misterblister]

She is NORMAL with you, but ABNORMAL with everyone else. Get it? The best hearts and minds who think they know and admire her normal are being deceived. She's that good at it, so good in fact you just can't shake the notion that maybe there's something wrong with your judgement. After all, she's this, she's that, etc.

The most precious bit of dating advice I could have gotten would have been, "Reject women whose private normal is not equal to or better than their public normal."

[Confusedpe]

Skyhawk... .I feel for you, I hope you get your happiness back ASAP and thank you for the advice it’s an eye opener and what you went through are my exact fears

Misterblister - your advice is good, I like that one... .and she is definitely decieving those acquaintances

Formfiller - I get what your saying, they become more loving when you become more distant it’s a really crappy thing but true, in fact it’s funny when she found out that I was talking to another woman after we broke up my initial thought was that she would finally get it and leave, it actually done the opposite she stepped up the love bombing! Sometimes I think I should take her back and just cheat on her and be an a$$hole ... .but it’s just not in my nature

I saw her tonight, went out and had an argument, she thinks I got anger issues, I do, SINCE I MET HER! She looked so good, but man her argument points are just short of being delusional, she argues her point like it’s valid but it’s complete nonsense