After The Week With Mom

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I got them back tonight.  No more of D5's "I want mommy" which I've been dealing with for a year,  though that's stopped the last few months.  We are on a 3-2-2-3 schedule (3s being Friday night through Monday morning). I asked her to watch them on my days since I had to be at a job 40 mins out of town at 830. No way to take them to school,  though in retrospect, I could have delayed it.  I didn't call them.  I passed on Wednesday night dinner... .no good reason.  Leaving home at 530 and getting home at 9pm... .I was beat. Not an excuse.  I'll confess: I got depressed.  Especially since I was kind of offered a job by the vendor I was evaluating.  But it would require up to 70% travel,  some internationally.  No way I could or would do it with kids so young. 

They both seemed relieved to be with me this weekend.  I had them overnight a week ago.  S7 said that he was looking forward to this weekend.  They said that mommy spanked them because D5 couldn't find her shirt in the morning which was on her bed.  S7 got spanked because he was laughing ("I tried not to laugh!".

I raise my voice often when motivating them on school mornings,  but I've never thought of spanking them. I remember going to school in tears more than a few times.  In 4th grade, my teacher noticed and asked.  I covered.  Even at 9, I remember thinking,  she might report it and I'll get in trouble at home even more.
.  Probably 1980. Even then. 

I don't think it's near that bad yet,  but I'm remembering that she called two weeks ago and apologized to the kids for losing her temper.  She used to do that with me as a lover.  Apologies tend to fall flat given repeat behavior.  I never remember my mom apologizing,  so there is at least that. 

Their mom took them on vacation in September.  Three times the kids mentioned to me that mommy pinched D5 at the rental cars hard enough to draw blood with her nails.  This was two weeks after the fact they first told me.  If that was the case and they aren't exaggerating,  then that's child abuse in our state.  Can spank and hit,  can't leave a mark.

I'll see her tomorrow at her family's function.  I'm going to bring it up.

[Turkish]

I got them back tonight.  No more of D5's "I want mommy" which I've been dealing with for a year,  though that's stopped the last few months.  We are on a 3-2-2-3 schedule (3s being Friday night through Monday morning). I asked her to watch them on my days since I had to be at a job 40 mins out of town at 830. No way to take them to school,  though in retrospect, I could have delayed it.  I didn't call them.  I passed on Wednesday night dinner... .no good reason.  Leaving home at 530 and getting home at 9pm... .I was beat. Not an excuse.  I'll confess: I got depressed.  Especially since I was kind of offered a job by the vendor I was evaluating.  But it would require up to 70% travel,  some internationally.  No way I could or would do it with kids so young. 

They both seemed relieved to be with me this weekend.  I had them overnight a week ago.  S7 said that he was looking forward to this weekend.  They said that mommy spanked them because D5 couldn't find her shirt in the morning which was on her bed.  S7 got spanked because he was laughing ("I tried not to laugh!".

I raise my voice often when motivating them on school mornings,  but I've never thought of spanking them. I remember going to school in tears more than a few times.  In 4th grade, my teacher noticed and asked.  I covered.  Even at 9, I remember thinking,  she might report it and I'll get in trouble at home even more.
.  Probably 1980. Even then. 

I don't think it's near that bad yet,  but I'm remembering that she called two weeks ago and apologized to the kids for losing her temper.  She used to do that with me as a lover.  Apologies tend to fall flat given repeat behavior.  I never remember my mom apologizing,  so there is at least that. 

Their mom took them on vacation in September.  Three times the kids mentioned to me that mommy pinched D5 at the rental cars hard enough to draw blood with her nails.  This was two weeks after the fact they first told me.  If that was the case and they aren't exaggerating,  then that's child abuse in our state.  Can spank and hit,  can't leave a mark.

I'll see her tomorrow at her family's function.  I'm going to bring it up.

[DoxieLover]

Hi Turkish!   

I don’t chime in much with my thoughts on things but I do enjoy reading everyone’s posts and knowing I’m not alone.  That said I wanted to ask about your comment to see if I understood what you said.  You are going to ask your ex at a family function tomorrow about a pinching incident from when she and the kids were on vacation in Sept?  Is that correct?  If so, uh, why?  What do you expect to gain from asking her?  In a semi-public environment with friends/family/allies of hers around, I would expect her to be highly defensive and entitled.  And therefore, I wouldn’t expect her to tell the truth about what happened.  In fact, I would expect her to go into attack mode and make the function miserable for you and perhaps the kids as well.  Not to mention a lot of BPDs tend to be extra sensitive/triggered around big holidays like Christmas.  So... .why do you want to ask her about something that happened months ago which she would likely not tell the truth about at any time but especially in this environment and is likely to get triggered and fly into a rage?  Is that really what you want to deal with so close to the holidays?  And even if you have thick skin if she rages at you, how about the kids?  Will they have to suffer any repercussions from it? And finally, what benefit do you think you will get even if she is honest and doesn’t go into a rage?  It’s not like the incident will be officially documented somehow. Not to mention, if you ever try to use it in court or in negotiations, she’s likely to deny it anyway and say she never admired to it cuz it didn’t happen to begin with.

Anyway, sorry if I sound harsh. Just trying to help. And to me, it just doesn’t seem like there is much possible or likely benefits to asking her about it but there seems like an awful lot of possible negative results from it.  I hope this makes sense.  Obviously you know her best and if you think this will produce an obvious benefit, please ignore my post.  Just thinking out loud about it as I know how it would go with my husband’s BiPD exW.  In our case it would DEFINITELY be a bad experience which would make us miserable for the rest of the day and probably the next few days.  Not to mention, it would distract us from enjoying our time with the kids due to being upset.

Anyway... .just my two bits.  If you decide to proceed, good luck!  I hope it goes well!   

And merry   

[kells76]

Hey Turkish, sounds like a lot going on for you. It's hard working full time (or more) and then parenting. I often deal with feeling guilty for how I take time off from work, because I don't always take it for days/times we have the kids -- often, I take time off when they're with Mom. And I feel like I'm doing something... .bad. Especially if I'm always going on about how Mom is problematic -- shouldn't I be taking more opportunities to have the kids be with us, not her?

If I was reading you right, maybe you're feeling something like that -- like you should have been with the kids, chose not to, and feel... .guilty? Regretful? Irresponsible? Something else?

And then on top of that, the kids are saying they LIKE being with you, AND Mom has done something to D5 that could be considered abusive. If it were me, that might intensify whatever I was feeling. It all kind of connects in a way.

Are you somewhere like that right now? Or somewhere different?

[Turkish]

She drove us to the church.  On the way back to the party I asked about it.  She detailed the incident truthfully and without defensiveness.  She started by talking about spanking (really only swats, not pull the pants down with hand or belt like my mom used to do). She said she apologized to the kids. She does this.  Overreacts, feels guilty,  then apologizes (kind of "rescue me" from my point of view... .I remember it well). She did admit she drew blood when she pinched D5. I didn't say anything,  or point out that leaving a mark was legal abuse in our state. 

D5 piped up about the spanking, "that was the wrong thing to do." She got that from what I said the night before when the kids told me.  I'm thinking I shouldn't have said exactly that to the kids. 

It's funny,  but I told her I was kind of offered the job that required up to 70% travel but they given the kids' ages I couldn't take it.  She said that I should and that she would be back here for the kids.  Somehow I knew she would say something like that.  I'd be mostly living on an expense account,  saving money,  but no. 

She also threw out the old "my mother never tolerated us crying.  When the kids cry,  it really bugs me." I didn't feel we had the time to explore that so I didn't say anything.  So that's a major trigger for her.  I also resisted responding with sarcasm: "so it isn't ok for them to cry,  but when you do,  you expect the world to stop and validate you." By playing dumb,  in a sense,  I'm safe,  and she volunteers info I certainly wouldn't if I were her. 

kells76, yes.  Maybe I should have at least called.  I was being selfish.  I cuddled my son tight tonight.  D5 climbed up to lay on top of me and we said our prayers. I kissed him on the head several times and told him I loved him.  He sighed and said "thanks daddy.  I love you too."

Their mom isn't a monster,  but I know that they feel safer and calmer with me. 

[kells76]

Hey Turkish,

Should you have called the kids? I don't know. But it sounds like you think you should have.

If I remember right, your kids' mom is generally cooperative and not intensely dangerous. So to DoxieLover's point, and what you mentioned happened, there was no rage or blowup. But I think DL's question still stands -- if the pinching happened in September, then this last week you had a long stretch without seeing the kids (but feeling like you should have), it might be interesting to discover why you wanted to bring up the incident now, in December.

I've known for a while that SD11 sometimes goes by the name of a character in a story that Stepdad tells. It has always weirded me out since I found out last summer, especially since he is the "prince" in that story    I haven't brought it up with the kids' counselor yet. Things were going pretty good for a while, but now I'm getting the sense that SD11 wants to pivot back to Mom & Stepdad more. And now I want to bring up that issue with the counselor.

See what I mean?

The issues are still valid and important. But I wonder if we're trying to manage our own guilt & anxiety by triangulating these issues into our lives now (as a focus) instead of back then.

And I say all that and STILL I think I'll make an appointment with their counselor.

Anyway, food for thought. Let me know if you don't get what I'm getting at.

[Turkish]

k76,

I get that my incident is stale.  Even so,  it isn't a pattern (leaving marks).  I was kind of afraid to bring it up.  At the least, I only see her every two weeks.  The kids mentioned it three times, so obviously it stuck with them.  I also wanted to see how much she would tell me,  which is why I didn't try to catch her by text (and she'd most likely have called me to talk about it). I keep thinking what my T observed three years ago: "she trusts and respects you,  but don't over do it." On my side,  he meant.  She was open and honest to me about the DV between she and her H, before she was with her closer friends (enablers in her leaving me). I know I walk a line,  and my path depends upon me.

Text exchange tonight about she criticizing me about getting D5 snow boots too big.  She still drives me nuts.  We choose the hills we want to die upon.  The little things aren't worth getting frothy over. I'm trying to communicate this to a friend who is at the end of a divorce, with three little kids.  He and his wife are at the "sniping" and "butt-hurt" stage over what I view from my point of view as simple logistics regarding exchanges.  It's all to easy to get entrapped by our hurt over the relationship and have it bleed over into the business of raising the kids in two homes. 

I read your thread,  and I'd say that your situation is ongoing and valid to address. 

[kells76]

Hi Turkish;

If I'm reading you right, you could tell that the pinching incident was sort of a one-time thing. Your kids' mom is generally cooperative and not dangerous; plus, I think I remember you mentioning that you had a kind of parental dynamic with her (she might see you as a paternal authority figure). But it was on your kids' minds, which brought it back to actionable for you now (vs back then, if it was a pattern, or never, if the kids got over it?)

So you have inroads with her that not many of the folks here have with their exes, but that doesn't make it always easy. What were you afraid would happen when you brought it up?

It's funny, I've been reading posts here for a while, and I never really thought that DH's ex would transition from uncooperative to cooperative. She has in many ways (not 100% though lemme tell ya) but that can make some conversations trickier. It's like, when she was uncooperative, we just didn't bring stuff up with her (we did with our counselor, and I did here). Now that she's working together better, it creates a gray zone of "should we or shouldn't we" that wasn't even a question before. Like our issue with SD11's journal & Stepdad, in a way it kind of drags out these issues. When to bring up stuff that isn't an emergency but isn't nothing? I'm with you on that -- sometimes you wait a bit.

[Turkish]

My ex is high functioning,  and she has a thin Narc steak where she projects who she wants to be to the outside world.  Though she had no problem getting a RO on previous bf, and tried to serve her husband's brother,  she seemed scared of going to court over custody.  Maybe she felt she would have been exposed as leaving me for someone else.  She kept this fact from her friends.  Her family knew and her extended family figured it out,  but she pretended not to be aware of that. 

I used knowing who she is to our benefit.  Certainly not "throwing in her face" that she was "sick" in her words was and is never helpful.  Detaching and being like Spock helps.  Realizing that this person, no matter her diagnosed (depression and anxiety) or undiagnosed illnesses (her "sickness" or "some kind of attachment disorder" in her words) helps.  It helps in accepting that's part of who she is. 

The tools here help. 

She hasn't recently mentioned her crusade to transfer the kids to her new school district in over a month.  No reason other than her anxiety (and she'd have the same issues at any school,  IMO). Another choice of mine: I told both the principal and S7's teacher what her desires to transfer the kids were.  I didn't mention mental illness,  even though it's on the ASD evaluation we filed with the school. 

My hesitation of when to stand up goes back to my FOO and growing up with a borderline mother. 

My overall point is know the other parent and take them as they are,  and distance your feelings (judgements) about that as much as possible.  There isn't one easy answer.  Assume of our situations here require concrete barriers as applicable, such as when I reported my teen ex-BIL to the cops over likely abusing then D2. I left my ex out of that equation. A lot of these are situational judgement calls.