Help: Not so strong anymore

[EdR]

Hi there,

Although it was hard I managed to NOT reach out for the last (more than) 2 months.

Every time I wanted to, I managed to base my decision on clear thinking. So I even was able to ignore her birthday, because I clearly saw the "no matter what happens, I lose" scenario.

But clear thinking is out of the window now :-(
I just saw some photos of her in the club she always visits (and thus I never go to).
She looks... .well... .friendly. Extremely cute, without a lot of make up. I dare to say: extremely pretty.

Only thing that is a red flag is she never seems to leave her two "evil friends" (or flying monkeys or whatever you like to call them).

My mind is playing tricks on me now... .every negative aspect is pushed away and the only thing that keeps buzzing is: "send her a simple Merry Christmas text" "what could be possibly wrong about that?"

I am stuck... .again... .tbh I am almost longing for confirmation: "dude... .just send the text already"

But I still know somewhere deep down that it's risky... .I asked her more than 2 months ago, fed up with all the weird behaviour, if she wanted to cut off all contact. She confirmed(, although it was not her writing style... .)


P. S. her 2 friends are red flag, because she always was a different person around them. She always seemed and still seems to derive her identity from them.
And I still believe their influence is what started her splitting. She became conflicted. She liked me, but her friends were more important to her.

[Aiko]

Don't send it. Your brain knows the right way, ignore somehow everything else, I'm finding when I am weak like this if I can somehow resist the urge for a day the intense feeling subsides. As for her friends yes I know the feeling mine has two of the same. She would tell me they were bad did stupid really stupid things and she would tell me about it and talk bad about them.  Guessing they are now all bffs again. Just remember the twisted person and the negative bs you know too well underneath those 'cute' pictures you saw.  It's a mask. It's what I do and I hope it helps me also

[EdR]

Somewhere deep down I still know you're right. I know what's best.

But today it just has become a minor little voice inside my head, whereas the urge to send her Merry Christmas is a powerful, screaming one which seems to occupy my entire brain... .

It is really hard now... .

[babyducks]

Hi EdR,

It's perfectly natural, totally normal that you would want to reach out to her.   Especially at this time of year with it's concentration on togetherness and connection.   You aren't weak or lacking in clarity.    

In ~normal~ relationship breakups it's part of the process of grieving to feel loss, want to reach out, wonder what's happening with the other person.  

In the high intensity/high conflict relationships created by this disorder, this is not a normal breakup,  it's a break up on steroids,... .so the feelings you are describing, the desire to text, the feelings of risk are all part of the healing process.    

As you wrestle with this, which ever direction you go, it's another step forward.   It's another step in learning.    It's learning about you and what you value.    How you best handle your decisions and your emotions.    

Don't get me wrong,... it kind of sucks from time to time.   But you are doing the right thing.   You are working out what this all means and how to deal with it and from time to time that gets messy.

How are you feeling now?

'ducks

[clytie]

Dear EdR,
I feel the same. I haven't seen him since September (at the court). I have been on No Contact since October. We have been together for 21 years. I was feeling stronger and more determined till this morning.
I can't stand the idea that all of our r/s was an illusion. I can't accept that he hates me and ignores me. I've heard that he has moved on with another woman. I can't stand the thinking that he loves her more than he has ever loved me. I heard that he behaved her nicer, and he was happier.
We shouldn't call or send any messages but considering the feelings and thoughts I am in right now, I feel hopeless and obsessive. I hate this pain.   

[blueblue12]

Hello EdR, I feel for you, I was also stuck with should I send a greeting scenario, birthday, Xmas, etc... .I knew that if I did I would regret it, so I opted to stay put and continue my healing, there is nothing good there for me, there is probably nothing good there for you either.

[babyducks]

There is a lot of intermittent re-enforcement,  when you are in a relationship with a person who either has BPD or many of the traits of the disorder.

by intermittent re-enforcement I mean the good times are really really good.  some of the best times ever,... .the bad times... .are absolutely horrible.

since it's never really possible to tell what you are going to get... .the good times or the bad times... .we tend to want to keep trying.    thinking maybe if I say it this way this time I will get something good.   that's how slot machines and gambling on the lottery work after all,... .maybe this time I will get something good,... I will keep trying.

so clytie... .the good times you are hearing about with the other woman?    right now the slot machine is paying off.    it's not always going too.    eventually the slot machine will stop paying off.   when a person with a disorder gets into a relationship there are two sides of the coin and you can't separate them.    The good side, the bad side,  it's all the same coin.

'ducks

[EdR]

Thank you guys for your kind words! It is such a shame that a "normal ending/closure" just is not possible... .

I still haven't sent it. But I do not know... .the urge is enormous.

[clytie]

Thank you babyducks. For the last three years there was no good side. He was so unloving and cruel. He blamed me for everything and I started to blame myself too. I should come to my senses. This is an "addiction". This is a "withdrawal crisis" right now. Once I get over this, everything will be better. NC is a must.   

[babyducks]

Hi EdR

... .the urge is enormous.

Oh yeah I understand completely.  the urge is enormous.  I get it.   been there.   

Walk through it with us.    What's behind the urge? Do you want to?

• do a nice thing at a nice time of the year?
• find a way to end things that is cordial and calm?
• hope to hear something like thanks Ed, and I wish you the best?
• hope to hear something like I miss you and want to talk to you?
• something else completely?

All those things are fine to feel, think and want.   No judgement.   There is no right and wrong to feelings.    Feelings just are.

What comes next?   In the unpredictable nature of BPD relationship, a simple text can generate a whole lot of possible replies.    It's valid to ask yourself if you are in the position to handle a angry volatile reply  should one come back at you.   Are the wounds and hurts healed?    It's also pretty valid to ask if you are in the position to handle a sweet loving reply if that comes back at you.    Will that rekindle hopes and longing?

Again, no judgement.    There is no one way to deal with the aftermath of a high conflict relationship.   No single best path.   Some paths work better for some people and not so well for others.   It's your individual road to pick your way down.

Let us know which way you went.     It will help others here.

'ducks

[EdR]

Hi EdR


Oh yeah I understand completely.  the urge is enormous.  I get it.   been there.   

Walk through it with us.    What's behind the urge? Do you want to?

• do a nice thing at a nice time of the year?
• find a way to end things that is cordial and calm?
• hope to hear something like thanks Ed, and I wish you the best?
• hope to hear something like I miss you and want to talk to you?
• something else completely?

All those things are fine to feel, think and want.   No judgement.   There is no right and wrong to feelings.    Feelings just are.

What comes next?   In the unpredictable nature of BPD relationship, a simple text can generate a whole lot of possible replies.    It's valid to ask yourself if you are in the position to handle a angry volatile reply  should one come back at you.   Are the wounds and hurts healed?    It's also pretty valid to ask if you are in the position to handle a sweet loving reply if that comes back at you.    Will that rekindle hopes and longing?

Again, no judgement.    There is no one way to deal with the aftermath of a high conflict relationship.   No single best path.   Some paths work better for some people and not so well for others.   It's your individual road to pick your way down.

Let us know which way you went.     It will help others here.

'ducks

Hi babyducks,

You are exactly mentioning the reasons why I didn't reach out in the past two months. Whatever her reply would have been, I would always pull the shortest straw.

But although I rationally still know that is all true, the emotions are getting the upper hand today... .:-(

[babyducks]

Hey EdR,

What you say makes a lot of sense. So you have this intense emotional urge to reach out even though you know it's fraught with difficulties.

I can tell you where my emotions were coming from when I have had those urges in the past.    I felt lonely, a little anxious, overwhelmed, and adrift.

I would want to reach out because I was looking for validation and soothing.    I'll be honest,  I have some validation needs that are probably greater than average.   and well,  self soothing is hard work,  it's much easier to have some one else do it for me.

In a way it's like clytie said,  it's somewhat like an addiction and this is withdrawal pain.    when the emotions get intense it's helpful to burn them off.    Physically for a start, a good work out at the gym.   A long walk, release the stress of the internal conflict by doing something active.    Eat something healthy, drink a bunch of water.     Emotionally take all those intense feeling and write them down on paper,  scribble as fast as you can.  don't worry about making sense or penmanship.  just let it pour out all over the paper.    If you have a trusted therapist share the paper with him/her.   If you don't have a trusted therapist put it away.   In a drawer.   Don't look at it for several days or maybe several weeks but when you are feeling calmer, more centered, more in you wise mind... .then go back and look at it.   Then it will be clear what triggered this wave of emotion.   scribbling it all down will give you the opportunity to come back to this later and see what was going on.    after all you can't see a storm when you are in the middle of it.

what do you think?   make any sense?

'ducks

[EdR]

Yep, it makes sense. Resisted the urge today, but it sure was not easy. I am not too sure about tomorrow... .

No matter how many things I do to occupy my mind, eventually I will reach a calm period. A little time frame in which I am doing... .well... .nothing. And that's exactly when all the emotions come in.
I simply cannot evade it.

My mind is now at the "could it really trigger a negative response? It would just be a simple Merry Christmas" - phase.Would I be considered a stalker?

So back to sleep and hope I'll 'survive' tomorrow... .

[EdR]

Well... .I sent it.

[Edit] and it feels just like in the devaluation phase: I feel nervous, shaky and I am checking my phone for a reply. I am also thinking if this simple message gets blown out of proportion.
So... .I guess we all knew... regardless of her possible reply: it was a bad idea :-(
[/Edit]

[Lost-love-mind]

Well... .I sent it.

[Edit] and it feels just like in the devaluation phase: I feel nervous, shaky and I am checking my phone for a reply. I am also thinking if this simple message gets blown out of proportion.
So... .I guess we all knew... regardless of her possible reply: it was a bad idea :-(
[/Edit]

Damn. Been in your shoes so many times in the last 6 mos since the breakup.
Also, made my last contact 3 weeks ago and was blocked on Twitter.
Her bday is 3 days after Xmas. I bought a card for her 5 mos ago thinking I could reconcile. Tempted to send it still. Why? It won't change anything. She made it pretty clear. I'm on the blacklist of probably many others that are victims of her illness.
Good luck my friend as you white knuckle waiting for a response. I feel for you. I hate the feeling and wish it upon no family member on this board. Please free us all from the feeling of the abyss.

[babyducks]

Hi EdR

Well... .I sent it.

No Judgement Ed.   This is a judgement free zone.

We aren't going to judge you and you shouldn't judge yourself.

Let's stop and think for a minutes about the members here who share children with their BPD spouse.

Or the members here whose son or daughter has BPD.

Obviously No Contact isn't an option for them.   

Over time I have seen a lot of members come back and say,  I've been No Contact for X amount of years and I still feel pain about this relationship.

No Contact can be a tool.    It can be a way to facilitate letting go.   It can also be our own form of black and white,  all or nothing thinking.      Something like 'I won't see her so she won't bother me'.

What I think we all have in common, regardless of the state of our BPD relationship, is these relationships drive us to work on our emotional strength, our psychologoical resilence, to grow our life skills.

It's tough work.   No doubt about that.    But it's also very rewarding.   

Let's back up to a few steps.   I sent out a list about what could have been behind your urgent urge to contact.   

What do you think was the thought/feeling/idea/emotion behind the desire to send her a message? 

Feelings are neither good or bad.   They just are.   Why did you want to contact her?

'ducks

[EdR]

Hi Beezleconduit, hi babyducks,

Thanks for your replies!

@Beezleconduit: yeah, it sucks. I do not really expect a reply from her. I sure hope to get one, but I think ignoring me (Silent Treatment)  would be her typical way to deal with it. The one thing I am afraid of is how this simple message could be blown out of proportion... .leading to new rumours, talking behind my back  etc. etc.

@babyducks and the rest of you guys:
My main reasons were the first 3 you mentioned. It just felt ridiculous to NOT send the person you cared (and still care) about a "Merry Christmas". Rationally I know and knew this is NOT true. She has done weird things and hurt me, so I would have every right to not send her anything. But emotionally it is a different story altogether.

I don't think and would not expect her to say something like "I miss you". That was never part of the plan.

If there would be a hidden agenda, it would be more subconscious. Probably to create an opening for sporadic contact. Just a friendly message from time to time. But I think that's not even possible.
The r/s thing is something I wanted deep down until a few months ago. I only realised that through self-reflection. Although I was quite honest with myself back then and did not try to ignore those feelings deep down.
There still might be a tiny spark of that left. It must still be there. But I truly believe that ship has sailed quite some time ago.

[babyducks]

So a couple of thoughts.

You did the right thing for the right reason.    You sent a cordial calm message in a spirit of generosity.   Right?   

You are not responsible for her reaction, how she 'takes' or interprets things.   She is going to do whatever it is she is going to do.   Because she has highly intense emotions that change frequently, she can go in any of several different directions.   That's not on you.

If you were to start to disconnect from her reaction.  start to detach from her response    (see sidebar for clues)   how would that look?

I think there is absolutely good and valid reasons why we get so attached to the response/reaction.    It's not groundless.    It's because the pay off can be so ~large~.    When that slot machine pays off its super validation, it's love bombing, it's highly exhilarating.    The opposite not so much.

So detaching from the reaction/response.  Understanding that it's not about us.   It's not personal.  It's the way a person with this disorder processes or views life, it not unique to us, can be a step to detachment.     

what's the next step to detachment?

'ducks

[EdR]

Hi babyducks,

That's my goal indeed. I already feel I am doing better than 2 months ago.
She has not replied yet and I do check my phone every time hoping that she did. But the positive thing is, it does not get to me as before.

I hope that over time her reply (in whatever form, even ST) does not emotionally get to me anymore. I feel I can do this... .eventually.

[Shoct]

Hi EdR,

I feel for you.

This thread has been helpful for me, especially the update that you sent an email. I just wrote in another post that I am absolutely on edge whether I should write her or not. And, i feel like, through your experience and feelings, I would be in a similar position if i wrote her.

It sounds like you sent your message in the best possible light--as far as wanting to send a cordial message--yet, still, you wonder how it will effect you emotionally. This is quote impactful on my attempt to not send anything. I keep trying to convince myself that sending her a 'merry christmas' email would be a good closure and try to move on. But I fear that is not why I have this unbelievable urge to. I have the sick need to be recycled. Not that my hopes is that it would be a recycle, that i would be cast out once again, but I have read this book before--that is how it would end eventually.

I wish you luck, and hope that you can resist the urge to conceptually check for a response, as I know how empty that feels.

[itgetsbetter94]

EdR, ah, who could blame you/jugde you... .? We're all in the same boat.
The next 24 hours will also be hard for me.
Expecting a Merry Christmas msg from him/ being afraid it would come / being afraid it wouldn't come / wanting it / dreading it. Cocktail of emotions, mixture of polar opposites.
I have a feeling that he erased my number for his phone, though.

Ah, I'll try to enjoy Christmas nonetheless.  I'm with my family, we decorated the Christmas tree, I cuddled with our cat, ate more than I should... .:D
Just... .try to enjoy. Make it about you, not her.
Check you phone as little as possible. I'd probably do that.
Don't let them take us this day. We have a right to have a good, or at least peaceful time.

I'm reading posts from the staying board.  Predictable.  At least we don't have to deal with that. My goal for this Christmas isn't necessarily to be happy, but to be at peace. I want clarity and serenity and to purge myself from all the residual lingering pain that I still feel.

[EdR]

Thank you. I hope you and we all can have a Christmas filled with love. And that the emptiness our pwBPD left us with will not control our minds and lives anymore.

She has not replied. Although it doesn't bother me nearly as much as before, I still have to confess it hurts me. I mean... .come on... .it's Christmas... .how could one be so cold... .

Merry Christmas to you all!

[EdR]

And... .she replied... .

Concisely, but with a festive emoticon.

I've decided to leave it at that. I am not texting 'thank you' and that kind of stuff as it could lead her to believe that I am trying to use this as a conversation starter.

Am I doing the right thing?

[itgetsbetter94]

Happy Christmas to you as well

Leave it at that, don't send another msg. And don't think for a second that making you wait so long for the reply wasn't form of manipulation, because it most certainly was!

Leave it all behind.

[Bo123]

I agree with itgetsbetter94.  I'm on a quest for an after break-up with a BPD happy ending and they're almost impossible to find and no one has looked harder than I.  Merry xmas and I hope you break the trend.

[RonaldAndNancy]

Merry Christmas EdR!

I'm officially going on 5 weeks since my exBPDgf left me out of nowhere. Try your hardest to follow NC and if you get that urge just pick up a book, go walk outside without your phone or come to this site and start typing your message to us, because the NC does help with the process. The best advice I can give you that has worked the for me is to just focus on you. I started to just focus on myself 2 weeks ago and it has really helped with controlling the millions of thoughts going on in my head.

No joke I started to do these things for the last 2 weeks. In my bathroom, I wrote three things on my mirror. Two things to remind myself what I'm really good at, the third thing is my next personal goal in life. For my good things, I wrote - "Inspire Laughter" and "Support with Strength" with my goal each day to do each of those things at least once. For my next goal in life ":)efine You!" - prove to myself that I can define who I am without the help and support of anyone else.

Finally, I'm trying (avg is every other night) to write in a personal journal everything that was bothering me for that day. I started out writing 4 or 5 pages each entry, but the last couple of entries have gone down to 2 or 3 pages. I'm now using page counts as a measurement of progress for myself. The writing helps with the therapy plus I find myself going back and reading entries from a week ago and it's interesting how my view on our relationship has changed so many times.

We're all here for you, let us give you the support so you can be there for you.

Merry Christmas!

[EdR]

Thank you all for your support and Christmas wishes.

Bo and itgetsbetter; yeah, I can only agree. I know that in the 2,5 years before the true devaluation she practically always replied within 15 minutes.
So yeah, in a way this is a clear sign she is not that same person anymore. She still is split. And it indeed has a manipulative overtone.

The positive side however is that she decided to reply just before going to bed. I guess she was already trying to get some sleep. The moment is key. It is a quiet moment and it fills you with all kind of thoughts. Apart from that, whatever you do just before sleeping tends to keep you busy at night.
And in that moment she chose to reply. She acknowledged me again and somehow could not continue her usual Silent Treatment.
I feel that is a positive.

Although I know there is truth and great help in your advice Ronald, I do feel that sending that message could prove to be helpful as well.

It is like any addiction. In the first phase you stay away from the alcohol. It is hard, you fall back etc. etc. But the goal is never to only just stay away from the alcohol. The final goal is to be able to walk in a bar and lift the liquor counter up. (NEVER THOUGHT I WOULD SOMEDAY PARAPHRASE EMINEM     .

My goal is now clear to me. It is to be able to message her once, twice, a few times a year without the total agony I experienced before.
I would like to be strong when I happen to see her again. I don't want to be afraid. I would like to remain unaffected.

This reply will help me. I now know her reply IS positive, but it has a negative side as well. Two sides of the same coin.
It does NOT leave an opening to follow up. So I should not and will not.

Does that feel natural? Not yet. I am used to he 2,5 years of spontaneous contact. But I am working on it and will try and use this experience for the better.

I am truly happy it's Christmas!  

[babyducks]

Hey Ed,

Thanks for hosting a good thread.   There is a lot of nice stuff in here.

As I read through this, what I see is that it's really not possible to evade or avoid our feelings.   No matter how many walks we take, how many distractions we provide ourselves eventually there will be that quiet time where nothing is going on and our thoughts will pop over to our Ex's.

What we do with those thoughts, those feelings is up to us.    It our job to work through them.

I really like this in what you wrote:

My goal is now clear to me. It is to be able to message her once, twice, a few times a year without the total agony I experienced before.
I would like to be strong when I happen to see her again. I don't want to be afraid. I would like to remain unaffected.

I see my Ex frequently.   Not really by my choice.   My relationship was pretty much the same as everyone's here.   Started out great.   I missed and ignored red flags.   We broke up and got back together ooh about a million times.    Or so it seems.    The arguments got horrific.   And eventually they flashed over into violence.

In the aftermath, my Ex displayed some traits that were kind of stalkish.    She would frequently appear in public places where I would be.    She started going to the same stores.     Going to the same place of worship.    Her car will be in the parking lot across the street from my house.   And I live in a small town.   We do occassionally just bump into each.

I found that behavior to be very difficult to tolerate.     While I understand her porous boundaries and lots of her maladaptive life skills are at play in her doing all that,  it's really up to me to handle that in a mature, healthy adult way.    Like you I don't want to be afraid.   I want to be unaffected.   I want to be strong.

It's not been linear,  and it's not gone the way I thought orginally.   I've put effort into being 'bullet proof' about seeing her.    And when, for whatever reason,   I'm not up to being bullet proof, I've put effort into finding ways to handle the fall out.     As stupid as it sounds I had to give myself permission to be my authentic self about how I felt and why.    It was as  itgetsbetter94 said a mixture of polar opposites.

Who knows the next time there is an special event, or an occassion you might think about sending a message and then say 'Nah,  I am not going to be bothered with all that.'

I am glad you got a response because I know you wanted one.    Try not to read to much into it.   No one ever really knows what another person is thinking.    I think it's great that

will try and use this experience for the better.

Nice job.    

'ducks

[EdR]

Thank you babyducks! And you're welcome    I felt this thread has really helped me. Both writing it down and getting all your support and feedback. So thanks for that!

I don't expect it to be linear either, so that's some great info right there. But I sure hope you and I, and everyone on these boards, will find a way. In our case we must continue to grow stronger.

About the 'don't read too much into her reply'; yeah... well... .I think words never paint the complete picture. Even more so for a pwBPD. There is so much to be seen in small things like writing style, time, body language etc. etc... Knowing her (and having previous unfortunate experiences with a pwBPD) my already heightened sense for emotional disturbances has been refined even further   
In hindsight I wish I would have listened to my feelings in the first place. I 'felt' something was off, before she truly split black more than a year ago. But I made the mistake to ask her about it and trust her completely. Every single time she replied that 'nothing was the matter' until it already was too late.

So I am not reading 'hope' in her reply. No worries about that. But I clearly see both sides of the same coin: on the one hand the fact that she replied and the timing (before sleeping) indicate that she somehow felt compelled to reply in a positive way. The conciseness and the fact that it took her almost a day to reply clearly indicate that I am not painted white. Not by a long shot. I truly believe (and know) this is her way of saying: "I do NOT want my reply to lead to a conversation!".

I know 'reading something into a message" is dangerous. But imo it is a necessary skill to deal with a pwBPD, because their communication is way more emotional (style, body language) than rational (exact words). But I agree it could possibly lead to "oh my gosh... .her Merry Christmas means she still loves me"-situations.    But then the sensory equipment would need some adjusting. 

*Sudden revelation: maybe that's why she NEVER wanted to talk about the weird stuff in real life. Apart from the shame and all that, her body language would have given away way too much of how she truly felt deep down. So she couldn't hide behind words.*

[itgetsbetter94]

EdR, I don't want to be the carrier of the bad news, but be honest with yourself and think- will you ever be able to send her a msg (once, twice, three times a year as you said) and be totaly unaffected by that? That the waiting for the reply wouldn't consume your whole day (as it has today)? To put your peace of mind and Christmas on hold until she answers back?
I'm not saying that YOU won't be able, but I personally would not. For me that would be like volunteering to slowly rip my nails of. I simply don't want to put myself in situation where there's even a slight possibility that this person could hurt me again.
She answered your merry Christmas msg. But how would you feel if she didn't? Would you feel the same as you do now?

I don't necessarily think that the analogy of an alcoholic being able to walk into the bar is really helpful in our cases. As an (for example) heroin addict, I really don't want to be nowhere near the needle. I don't want to see it. There's no need in my life to be ever around it again. I am an addict, I admit (figuratively speaking). It's hard as it is to be sober day by day and count days of me being clean. I don't want to tempt myself by no chance. Can I swear on my life that I would remain clean if you hand a needle in my hand? In best case scenario, well, maybe I really would. But is it really worth it, with even a slight possibility of failing?

As Sun Tzu said, the victor is the one who knows himself. That also means knowing our weaknesses and limitations. We're all only humans, flawed and imperfect, and after experience with people with BPD, often severely wounded and hurt. And that's ok. But don't put more burden on your shoulders than you should carry from this experience. Don't put yourself in harms way. Your ex doesn't have your best interest at heart. She isn't the person that you should test the waters with and train yourself and your will power, patience etc.
There is more possibility than not that she will hurt you again.
She might decide not to answer the next time. Can you ever promise to yourself that that won't ruin your day/ week/ month?

I don't want to sound harsh, I speak from the bottom of my heart and mean well. We're in this together. As you studied and mastered nuances of her behaviour and (un)spoken words, try to implement that also on yourself. You're also a delicate machine who needs to be treated gently and with a care.