A Fresh Start

[RomanticFool]

I had been LC with my exuBPD married lover for a number of weeks before Christmas. I pulled away again because I felt let down. She had suggested meeting up over 200 miles away from my home and it is my belief that she never intended to actually meet me. I told her that I could meet and then 2 weeks later she told me that she had given the tickets to the gig we were supposed to attend to her daughter. She claimed I said that I couldn't meet. This was of course nonsense. I told her that it would be difficult to meet but I was prepared to.

I told her this was the last straw and synonymous with everything that is wrong in our situation. I have stopped calling it a relationship because it isn't. I hadn't heard from her for 2 weeks then got a 'How are you?' message on Christmas eve. I told her I was no longer prepared to pretend everything was fine between us when I haven't seen her for almost a year and feel she is once more stringing me along. I told her I felt she had no intention of meeting me and I understood that while she cares for me she is conflicted about her feelings. I told her I feel manipulated. I also told her that I feel she wants me as a friend and not a lover and I cannot be that to her. She told me that it isn't manipulation but that I am correct (not sure what about). She told me that she is conflicted about whether to keep contacting me for her needs or to leave me alone for mine. I told her that  it was my decision to leave doors open to her. I stated very clearly that despite cutting her off FB numerous times I left other avenues of communication open because I care about her. I then told her that she needs to be honest with me and tell me how she really feels about me as it is not fair to make me think there is a possibility of romantic love when she just needs to stay in contact. Of course she didn't reply and I knew she wouldn't. So once again, I have cut her off Facebook.

I post this here because with distance I can see the loop we are stuck in. I play my part in it still as I am reluctant to let a big love slip away as I know it must. I have been as kind and understanding and honest with her as I am able. I have not said most of what I really want to as I know it will have no effect. She has bee  pulling away from me for years and will continue to do so. We both know the game is up. I am sad but no longer devastated. The only real peace I get in my life is when I don't hear from her. I love her and I hate her. She is a big love in my life and the worst thing that ever happened to me.

I have had a good Christmas with my wife because I have stopped investing in this woman emotionally. Agreeing to the meeting was half hearted and my ex sensed it. This r/s was over several years ago. I have almost detached. I mourn the love I felt. I no longer crave thw forbidden fruit as it is laced with emotional poison.

Happy Holidays everybody.

RF

[formflier]

RF,

You seem to have a good "intellectual" grasp of what is going on between you and your ex-lover.  What do you think she "gets" or "needs" (which may be different than what she says) from you when you "do your thing" in this relationship.

":)o your thing" is the relationship pattern you described in this post.

FF

[Skip]

I also told her that I feel she wants me as a friend and not a lover and I cannot be that to her. She told me that it isn't manipulation but that I am correct (not sure what about).

I think she amy have explained "what about". It's just hard to hear when you're close to it.

I stated very clearly that despite cutting her off FB numerous times I left other avenues of communication open because I care about her. I then told her that she needs to be honest with me and tell me how she really feels about me as it is not fair to make me think there is a possibility of romantic love when she just needs to stay in contact. Of course she didn't reply and I knew she wouldn't. So once again, I have cut her off Facebook.

She has been, don't you think? Part of the "drama" is that she is reluctant to spell it out because she feels you will pressure and try to manipulate her by withdrawing.

I play my part in it still as I am reluctant to let a big love slip away as I know it must. I have been as kind and understanding and honest with her as I am able. I have not said most of what I really want to as I know it will have no effect. She has bee  pulling away from me for years... .

Do you think this was a "big love" or was it a "fantasy relief" for both of you? The reason I ask is because this is what ultimately you struggle with - the belief that this was a "big love".

What if it wasn't, RM. What if that boat sailed away a decade ago.

I suspect that if you just let it be an occasional fling, she would comply - sharing sex for you and the occasional emotional escape that she needs for herself. The fantasy escape - a vacation from life.

When the vacation becomes an obligation, it starts to feel like the world she is trying to escape from.

I don't think an occasional fling is a good thing for you... .that's not my point. I think you are possibly hurting yourself by believing this out to be more than what it was. She may well have gone along with that... .but as part of the fantasy... .not "big love".

[formflier]

The issue of "what we had together" seems to be a common thing for the "nons" on these boards.  It certainly is for me.

As BPDish behavior plays out in the relationship and as the "non" grasps the impact of this BPDish behavior (usually meaning the "old" relationship is not coming back), there is a lot for the "non" to process about current reality. 

There seems to be little chance for many (any) of us of the "old times" coming back.  It's likely healthier to focus on what is on the table now and see if that is a relationship worthy of me (nons in general) to continue to make investments in.

For me, I'm continuing with putting energy into my marriage.  While it's not the relationship I "want", there is much there to enjoy and be satisfied with.

As I think about your story, it seems obvious you would like to resume meeting in person.  She seems to understand this (on some level) and is using that desire (apparently) as a tool to capture your interest. 

That tool is working for her.  I would expect her to continue using it.

If she doesn't meet you or continues to offer and back out, is that a relationship you want to continue  with?

FF

[RomanticFool]

FF and Skip,

Thank you for your responses. You have both perfectly outlined the crux of the situation and it is crucial for my healing that I dwell on your points.

The issue of "what we had together" seems to be a common thing for the "nons" on these boards.  It certainly is for me.

As BPDish behavior plays out in the relationship and as the "non" grasps the impact of this BPDish behavior (usually meaning the "old" relationship is not coming back), there is a lot for the "non" to process about current reality. 

There seems to be little chance for many (any) of us of the "old times" coming back.  It's likely healthier to focus on what is on the table now and see if that is a relationship worthy of me (nons in general) to continue to make investments in.

I have always tried to recapture what we had. She is the only person in my life in recent memory who has made me feel 'whole.' I recognise that this is classic co-dependency but our equivalent emotional states is probably what has fuelled it thus far plus the feeling that I am lucky to have such a woman in my life. I recognise intellectually that the exact opposite is true. Emotionally I have always felt dependent on her and I have been in denial about the 'old times' not coming back. Every time I spend time with her it reinforces how much I care for her and how emotionally unavailable she will always be. Oxymoron.

For me, I'm continuing with putting energy into my marriage.  While it's not the relationship I "want", there is much there to enjoy and be satisfied with.

My wife is better for me in every way. We have a largely healthy and equal r/s and there is no point scoring, game playing or battles for control. Apart from our sex life, there is nothing I would change about my r/s with my wife. I know she is better for me. However, with the ex it goes beyond logic and comes down to co-dependent and animal attraction. In Hollywood parlance, she feels like 'The One.' I know it is nonsense but I don't 'feel' it is nonsense.

As I think about your story, it seems obvious you would like to resume meeting in person.  She seems to understand this (on some level) and is using that desire (apparently) as a tool to capture your interest. 

That tool is working for her.  I would expect her to continue using it.

If she doesn't meet you or continues to offer and back out, is that a relationship you want to continue  with?

That is a very accurate description of what she is doing. I don't understand it at all. I would never want to hurt somebody by keeping them hanging on with no intention of meeting. I understand that she wants to keep in contact with me, I want the same thing, but I want more than contact and she doesn't. I find it very difficult to accept that she doesn't want the full on emotional attachment which leads to a close r/s, especially after the wonderful times we spend together. I don't understand why she doesn't want to see me as much as I want to see her and it hurts like hell.

I think she may have explained "what about". It's just hard to hear when you're close to it.

She moves the goal posts constantly which is why I am so confused. One minute she is offering to meet - the next minute she has given the tickets to the gig away. One minute she adores me - the next minute I am pushing her too hard and she backs away. Throughout my posting on here you have pointed out my own push/pull mechanism. However, my push/pull has always been in response to her push/pull. If she said that she wanted to see me all the time and then one day said that the r/s was not good for her marriage and stuck with that, I would accept it and move on. However, she shillyshallies and changes and meets me and then pulls away again. She is terrified of losing contact with me, I understand that, but she is also depriving me of my chance of moving on. I have told her very clearly that I cannot be friends because we have shared too much passion and I feel rejected sexually. She refuses to accept it and ignores my wishes. She actually recognises that my needs are to move on if she isn't going to see me but up until now has refused to let me go.

The way I see it we are both fighting to have the r/s on our terms. My terms are to have a full on sexual r/s and her terms are to have a pen friendship with the occasional phone call. I cannot stand to just let this r/s fade away like that and all the time I wonder who else she is seeing. If she is out of my life I can recover from this.

She has been, don't you think? Part of the "drama" is that she is reluctant to spell it out because she feels you will pressure and try to manipulate her by withdrawing.

Perhaps there have been times where I have consciously manipulated her by withdrawing, but most it has been through self-preservation to stop her from constantly dipping in and out of the r/s when it suited her with no responsibility or commitment to me.

In my view, manipulation by withdrawing has been her tactic from the start of the r/s. I know I sound like a child, but she started the ST. I was incapable of visiting ST upon her when I was younger because my heart was dying to see her. Part of my own withdrawal now that I am older and have better control over my emotions, is to make it clear to her that I am not going to tolerate being manipulated myself. I guess I am giving her a taste of her own medicine for the years of agony she put me through. Not that I want any of this. What I really want is to see her but no matter what I do that is not going to happen. History demonstrates to me her own inconsistency. Push/pull all the time. One step towards me and two steps back. That is how she has always behaved.

Do you think this was a "big love" or was it a "fantasy relief" for both of you? The reason I ask is because this is what ultimately you struggle with - the belief that this was a "big love".

What if it wasn't, RM. What if that boat sailed away a decade ago.

I didn't need relief from anything when we first met because I was single. I fell in love with her many years ago when I was in my early 40's. She as everything I wanted in a woman: Beautiful, alternative, funny, smart, gentle and combative in equal measure. She lied to me from the outset and didn't reveal she was married until I had travelled 200 miles to meet her. We were both still drinking then and the first night we slept together, she then invited me back to her house. I wasnt sure why and it seems out of character for the woman I now know to do that. I have often questioned her why she did that (fortunately I had the good sense to dismiss it out of hand) but I now often wonder whether there was some kind of punishment for her husband involved. She has told me often that they have both seen other people during their r/s. She also told me that he is bisexual. I have no idea what was in her mind by inviting me back to her house all those years ago. However, I was emotionally vulnerable at the time and I thought she was too. As FF mentioned in his post, it has been slowly dawning on me over 15 years the impact of her BPDish behaviour. I don't even know if she has BPD. For all I know she and her husband were procuring people for each other and she made a mistake and felt too much for me. That scenario has crossed my mind. Whatever it is, there has never been any doubt in my mind as to how strongly I have felt towards my ex. My journey has been to establish exactly why. My current thinking is because I found her intoxicating physically and emotional I felt I had met my soullmate. She said the same thing to me when the r/s was at its height. She often stated to me that her husband is emotionally absent and has some autistic tendencies. Clearly, I was giving her what her husband could not.

I suspect that if you just let it be an occasional fling, she would comply - sharing sex for you and the occasional emotional escape that she needs for herself. The fantasy escape - a vacation from life.

When the vacation becomes an obligation, it starts to feel like the world she is trying to escape from

I think what I was offering initially ie the emotional intensity and passion is exactly what she had been missing from her husband. The emotional intensity and passion WAS the vacation from her boring, humdrum and emotionally devoid husband. That's how she told it to me.

I think my demands of commitment and a sexual r/s and then being angry at her withdrawals and ST are what has turned the r/s toxic. I didn't know at the time that all of the passion and intensity she craved and I was providing would eventually be too much and drive her away. Most non BPD women would have an insatiable appetite for getting what they are missing. I had never met a pwBPD/BPD traits and had I known anything about the condition, I'd have tried to protect myself earlier. This is going to seem like childish self-pity, but I was like a lamb to the slaughter. I didn't know what I was dealing with then - she is a very unconventional person and one of the things I love about her - but her mental health and emotional disposition meant everything I did pushed her away and triggered her. I couldn't stand the ST back then and hate it just as much now.

I don't think an occasional fling is a good thing for you... .that's not my point. I think you are possibly hurting yourself by believing this out to be more than what it was. She may well have gone along with that... .but as part of the fantasy... .not "big love".

I think I am incapable of having a fling with anybody. It isn't really what I want. I want the closeness that comes from really knowing a beautiful person. I think so many good things about my ex and I have tried hard to see only the good in her and be generous spirited and let her remain on my FB and allow her contact. But she will never respect any boundary I put in place. When it suits her she will give the impression of closeness only to pull away time and again. She will very subtly abuse any 'agreement' or deal I try to put in place out of a misguided desire to be kind to her.

When she was drinking I saw her dark side. She is capable of being hurtful, nasty and aggressive and when I am met with a person, however, damaged. behaving like that towards me, I am going to respond in kind. I was a man with a good heart when we first met, who thought he'd met the woman of his dreams. I ought to have been wiser and stronger, but i wasn't. Everything that has followed has been because I fell for the wrong woman all of those years ago. Perhaps it has always been a fantasy to some degree, as she has never been available - but I was available back then and she took a big dump all over my emotional life and I never really recovered.

Now I am stronger and I am not allowing her to manipulate me. In fact the first time I really laid down a boundary and stuck to it, she claimed a suicide attempt. Recently she has been getting on well in AA and I know she has new friends there. She has not responded to me cutting her off FB this time, something she normally reacts to immediately. She may well have already replaced me, if not with another man then another person willing to listen to her emotional woes - in this case her AA sponsor. She has never made me feel special, she has never made me feel like she cares about me. That is the sorry tale, as I see it.

[RomanticFool]

I just want to conclude my above post. I would like nothing more than to be friends with my ex, retain her on FB and make sure that she is happy and stable. However, I have spent enough time trying to play her psychiatrist because I thought she was my one true love and I wanted to save her. This rescue fantasy has ben damaging and has played directly into her hands.

I suspect that if you just let it be an occasional fling, she would comply - sharing sex for you and the occasional emotional escape that she needs for herself. The fantasy escape - a vacation from life.

I repeat this quote because it has really struck a chord with me. Part of the AA programme is about rigorous honesty. Had she been honest with me at any point during our 15 year history and said: 'You are not the love of my life, my husband is. This affair is not what you have blown it up to be, but an escape from my life. I enjoy meeting up with you and sleeping with you but I am never going to leave my husband.' I would have come to terms with this a long time ago. She has proven herself to be incapable of honesty towards me (I'm talking about the bigger picture here). She knows that she should have spelt out exactly how she feels because I have spent 15 years trying to get her to clarify how she feels. For 2 of those years she gave me the impression that this was romanic love. I told her she was the love of my life. She should have been honest about how she felt and we wouldn't be here.

I am not blaming her for my own morally reprehensible behaviour and cheating on my wife, that is on me. I have to deal with my own guilt and shame around that. However, had she practised honesty towards me even once or twice, I would have been better equipped with the facts and possibly made better choices. This is what happens when people we feel strongly for deceive us.

I recognise the irony in that statement and all I can say is that I was single when the damage with the ex was first done. I had been lied to and manipulated to visit her in her home town. Had I not been drinking at the time, I would probably have made a better decision.

Allowing her back into my life was a terrible and morally reprehensible thing to do - not least to my wife. It was also a damaging and painful thing to do to myself. I had no idea the ramifications then of that decision. In my very tenuous defence (and I am aware this would not stand up in the court of moral arbitration) I thought the true love of my life had come back to me and that we should have been together all along. I was prepared to accept I had made a mistake in getting married under those circumstances.

My ex knew the stakes were high and while I cannot expect her to take any responsibility for my behaviour - had she been honest about the true nature of her feelings, we would not be here. That is the source of much of my frustration. Why has she wasted my time and emotions thus? I guess that is what people with BPD traits (and some without) have a tendency to do. I invited her to be honest this week. She has been sober for a decent period of time now, she has done AAs 12 Steps. I offered her a non judgemental hearing if she would tell me her truth. I got the same silence I have always received from her. She will never admit to any wrongdoing. The closest we got was: 'I am conflicted about whether I should stay in contact with you for my needs, or leave you alone for yours.' I think her growth will be that she has decided to leave me alone (for the time being anyway). My rather hard response to that is: Too little, too late.

Moving forward, it is clear what i must do. I have to close the door on the r/s with my ex and move forward, trying to make my marriage work. That is what this extremely painful extrication process from this damaging detachment has been all about. I think I do see myself as the injured party, perhaps because to some degree I am only concerned about my own emotional damage. I would like to find it in my heart to extend empathy to my ex and keep her in my life, but my motives would always be to see her again and sleep with her. I must eradicate this from my life if I am to stand any chance to making amends to my wife for not being emotionally present for so long.

[formflier]

RF,

You have a decent grasp at what is going on.  I would like to offer some tweaks to the point of view.

Instead of "making your marriage work"... I would encourage you to "work on your marriage".  Especially parts of it that you seem to understand need work.  Relationships take effort, I would encourage you to see your "effort" as a limited commodity and to "spend" it wisely.


I am much like you in that I like to "understand" or "figure things out".  pwBPDish tendencies seem to relish "moving about" so that they can't be pinned down or figured out.  I want to assure you that is likely not their goal but a result of rapidly changing feelings.

Also, I'm big on "honesty".  I would encourage you to believe that your ex WAS being "honest"  with you when things were said.  Please understand that she likely felt that way... then... .and doesn't feel that way now. 

They fundamentally view "honesty", especially as it relates to feelings, in a different way than many non's do. 

Likely best not to try and "figure that out", but rather accept it as a truth.  Energy spent figuring it out is likely best spent in other places.

I would hope that you could leave any "status" of a communication channel alone (not switch it).  Perhaps that is the way things stay for years, perhaps not.  My hope would be that you try on your plan for a month and then come back and post and let us know where your head is.  Perhaps then it would be appropriate to make decisions about communications channels. 

Thoughts?

FF

[RomanticFool]

Hi FF,

I am much like you in that I like to "understand" or "figure things out".  pwBPDish tendencies seem to relish "moving about" so that they can't be pinned down or figured out.  I want to assure you that is likely not their goal but a result of rapidly changing feelings.

Also, I'm big on "honesty".  I would encourage you to believe that your ex WAS being "honest"  with you when things were said.  Please understand that she likely felt that way... then... .and doesn't feel that way now.  

They fundamentally view "honesty", especially as it relates to feelings, in a different way than many non's do.  

Likely best not to try and "figure that out", but rather accept it as a truth.  Energy spent figuring it out is likely best spent in other places.

I would hope that you could leave any "status" of a communication channel alone (not switch it).  Perhaps that is the way things stay for years, perhaps not.  My hope would be that you try on your plan for a month and then come back and post and let us know where your head is.  Perhaps then it would be appropriate to make decisions about communications channels.  

Thoughts?

Your words have proven pretty profound. I got a call from my ex today which has totally floored me. She apologised and told me that she knows she has treated me badly. I just listened and let her talk and she said she knows I have always been there for her and been loyal. She told me that her husband is not well and that she feels beholden to him since she is married. She told me that her children have grown up and left home and that she feels alone much of the time. There was a distinct lack of self pity in her words, just a clear summing up of where she is. I told her that I could tell she has come a long way in her journey and I said I appreciated her words. We rehashed some of the details of the r/s and I told her everything was exacerbated by her drinking. I broke down in tears on the phone and apologised as it wasn't my intention to make her feel bad. She is a suicide prevention counsellor and was empathic without breaking down herself, but I could hear in her voice she was moved. I believe this was an AA step 9 amends to me and I never expected it. I am filled with hope that she may experience a less emotionally volatile existence.

That conversation has changed everything. Perhaps, her lack of empathy and denial about any emotional effect on me has been a form of gaslighting. Some of my tears were relief from that. We have discussed before both of our pathologies, specifically with regard to BPD and NPD traits. She agrees that she has inner emptiness, unstable self image and an emotional reflex that makes her run away. I told her that I have been struggling to understand whether her desire to keep in contact is simply the BPD traits or something else. She asked what else it could be. I replied 'love.' She said 'well there you go.' I told her, for the first time, that I know I have behaved badly towards her, that I have lacked empathy and become toxic in my behaviour. It is the longest and most meaningful telephone conversation we have ever had. I told her that my focus has to be on my wife now and she said the same about her husband.

This is a profound day in my situation and my life. I feel a turning point for the better for all involved in this situation.

[Sunfl0wer]

What stood out to me... .

That conversation has changed everything.

I wonder if she is aware that a single conversation with you has the power to completely alter your perception of the entire situation and/or person?

Sounds to me like this gal has “got your number.”

I would challenge you to evaluate what that all means.

[formflier]

So... .one thing I still struggle to accept about pwBPD is that they will "sometimes" say exactly what you want to them to say.  That is soo tempting to "grab" and hold onto for dear life.

The healthier option is to look at the totality of their communications AND actions over a long period of time.  Ask yourself is the message "stable".

Many times the "stable" message is the one we don't want to hear. 

Remember... .BPDish behavior is a result of rapidly changing feelings. 

As always... .take time... .evaluate things before making decisions. 

   

FF

[RomanticFool]

I wonder if she is aware that a single conversation with you has the power to completely alter your perception of the entire situation and/or person?

Sounds to me like this gal has “got your number.”

I would challenge you to evaluate what that all means.

FF has encouraged me to think of her as being honest. The problem with being suspicious of her motives and doubting her at her word, is that it leads to anxiety in my mind and then to emotional dysregulation.

The thing that has changed is that she recognises she has caused me pain. That is an empathy response towards me that she has never genuinely expressed before. At least not unprompted. It doesn't mean that her entire personality is now going to shift and she will suddenly behave like a non.

However, how useful is it going to be for me to think of what she said to me to be manipulation? We both know the r/s is finished. If she is manipulating me then she is the most skilled and calculating person I have ever encountered. I choose to believe that what she expressed to me today was genuine. The thing that is different to the past is that she has embraced the AA programme. She has always been defiant and disparaging of it in the past. The AA literature talks about a psychic change from the classic alcoholic perspective of a belief system based on fear, hate and illusion. It also says in the literature that people with grave emotional and mental disorders can recover if they have the capacity to be honest. I sense a profound change in her; I heard it on the telephone and I have sensed it in my communication with her.

Something as simple as apologising means that she is recognising what she has put me through emotionally and she is taking responsibility for her actions. In my experience most people who embrace the AA programme don't lie. I don't think she is lying to me because I think she wants to get well. She has been less emotionally volatile recently and the thing that I reacted strongly against recently she tells me was based on a message she never received. Only time will tell if she is deceiving me, but I don't think she is. We have made no promises to meet. We have both said we need to concentrate on our spouses. How does that equate to her 'having my number?' I have been her biggest critic because she has hurt me, but credit where credit is due. She is doing the AA steps and trying to address her issues, as I am on here. In terms of transactional analysis, instead of dealing with each other's child, we are now communicating adult to adult and I really really like it. I like myself better too.

[RomanticFool]

So... .one thing I still struggle to accept about pwBPD is that they will "sometimes" say exactly what you want to them to say.  That is soo tempting to "grab" and hold onto for dear life.

The healthier option is to look at the totality of their communications AND actions over a long period of time.  Ask yourself is the message "stable".

Many times the "stable" message is the one we don't want to hear.  

Remember... .BPDish behavior is a result of rapidly changing feelings.  

As always... .take time... .evaluate things before making decisions.  

Sunfl0wer just cautioned me exactly the same way. All I can say is that I have to believe what she is saying to me, otherwise that makes her a monster. I don't want to think of her as this arch manipulator. I am giving her the benefit of a very large doubt in my mind. She also tells me that she thinks her husband is monitoring her communication on WhatsApp and she has stuck with that story ever since I've known her. I don't know if it's true or false but she does seem to believe it. Whether it is true or not, I now believe that she believes it. I also feel that it is not fair of me to create anxiety in her by pushing anymore. I found my own empathy response today also.

It was such a profound thing she did in my book and it is so opposite to anything she has said to me before, that I am inclined to believe her. I know she is capable of lying and manipulating but I just don't think she would do it around this.

I have seen people come in the AA rooms who have literally come out of a psychiatric unit and they get well in time by doing the AA programme. I believe it is very similar to CBT and DBT. As far as I understand it, DBT is about analysing your own negative behaviour while simultaneously accepting who you are and placing a strong emphasis on one's r/s  with the therapist. I think in this case it is the AA sponsor she is responding to. There is also strong support from the AA group and developing a spiritual dimension to one's mindset by connecting to a higher power. It seems to me that my ex is responding positively to the programme. I have seen it before in people. It can often feel like a miracle has occurred.

For the first time in our entire r/s, I am thinking of her wellbeing and not how she is affecting my life. She honestly told me that she feels responsible for her husband but told me she recognised that I had been loyal to her and she had treated me badly. One of the major things I have wanted from her was some acknowledgement of that. It seems to have redressed the balance of the 'emotional gaslighting' I was feeling.

Who knows, maybe I'll feel differently tomorrow but I can see she is trying and I now feel that I must not get in the way of her getting well.

[RomanticFool]

FF,

Talking of rapidly changing feelings. My emotions have subsided somewhat and I am beginning to see what you and Sunfl0wer have been warning me about. I thought I would show you over conversation from tonight

Her: How are you?
Me: I feel a bit emotional but I am ok. How are you?
Her: Pretty much the same really - I’m so sorry I upset you earlier
Me: I'm upset because the emotional recall of the pain the relationship caused me, combined with what you said, touched me deeply.
Her: I meant every word x
Me: It's a shame that we wasted so much time.
Her: That’s life for you... .
Me: That was not what I wanted for myself. It has all been too painful. I only ever wanted to spend time with you. It should never be that painful.

I sense that she is now trying to resume normal service. Perhaps she feels that the apology is done and we can go back to 'normal' communications. When I didn't respond in the way that she wanted, she shut down again.

I also note the x. These 'kisses' have been very important to both of us during our communications in the past. I have not been putting any into our communications for some time and I sense that she wants them.

The significance is that we had a conversation this afternoon about our spouses and our responsibilities to them and now she is back with an x.

While I don't doubt the sentiment of what she said, I can see that there may have been part of her trying to get me on side again. However, because it has been almost a year since I've seen her and am no longer so thin skinned (unless emotionally disturbed) - I do not take this as total calculated manipulation - but I do see the validity in what you and Sunfl0wer are saying.

[formflier]

I would urge you to resist thinking that if you "doubt" her sincerity that "it means" she is a monster... .or calculating person... or manipulator... .or anything like that.

I'm also not alleging that there is no "calculation" at all in her.

I AM trying to focus you that many times pwBPD "seem" to be calculating, but in reality they are acting on very strong emotions and change with a rapidity that will make your head spin.  So... .instead of "calculating" she is likely "reacting".

We also have to acknowledge that we will never know for sure.  

Which is why it's best not to "grab" one part of their communication  and ignore other parts.

People do change... .and that will be born out over time with a "new consistency" of communication.  Rather than "leaning forward" an examining every word and detail for consistency... .I would encourage you to let the totality speak for itself... .over time.

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

I dont think this is about one person being manipulative to another.  That is not where I was looking.  “Getting you” (grasping how you tick) and “out to get you” are different things.

FF says it better tho... .

Rather than "leaning forward" an examining every word and detail for consistency... .I would encourage you to let the totality speak for itself... .over time.

[formflier]

RF,

Let me provide an example from my r/s.  I "get" my wife.  I understand, especially when she is feeling victimized, how she views religion.

A husband's priority is to "love his wife" and that means that all of his decisions revolve around her "feeling" loved. 

Note:  I don't agree with this, but I "get" this about my wife and can validate her feelings or I can " agree" with this point of view in certain situations and it will have a big impact on my wife.

FF

[patientandclear]

RF, are you exploring how to improve your relationship with your ex-lover? Or are you wanting to deepen your marriage? Those are probably mutually exclusive projects and it sounds as though that truth, which you wrote a lot about a few months back, has ebbed out of this discussion. Now, you comment that you value and want to strengthen you marriage, but you are devoting a ton of time to processing about the fine details of your dynamic with your ex-lover. With whom are you trying to improve things?

[Cat Familiar]

I sense that she is now trying to resume normal service. Perhaps she feels that the apology is done and we can go back to 'normal' communications. When I didn't respond in the way that she wanted, she shut down again.

I also note the x. These 'kisses' have been very important to both of us during our communications in the past. I have not been putting any into our communications for some time and I sense that she wants them.

The significance is that we had a conversation this afternoon about our spouses and our responsibilities to them and now she is back with an x.


Having been "the cheated upon wife" with my exBPDh, I'll add my two cents here.

For one, you are still having a relationship with your married lover. And you are talking about going back to "normal" communications.

Does your wife know that you are still communicating with this woman?

If so, is she OK with that?

If not, then you still are actively engaging in "cheating", without the physical part, but still cheating on an emotional level.

As someone who was really hurt by my ex-husband's affairs, I think that if you want to truly repair the relationship with your wife, you need to end it with your lover, not keep on exchanging communications about how you both want to improve things with your respective spouses.

[RomanticFool]

FF,

Thanks for your input. I think the way you deal with your BPDish wife is an example to us all. You are absolutely correct about the bigger picture and I shall see what her behaviour brings in the coming months. I feel that I am in a better place emotionally and that we are on a better footing, so that is real progress.

RF

[RomanticFool]

Having been "the cheated upon wife" with my exBPDh, I'll add my two cents here.

For one, you are still having a relationship with your married lover. And you are talking about going back to "normal" communications.

Does your wife know that you are still communicating with this woman?

If so, is she OK with that?

If not, then you still are actively engaging in "cheating", without the physical part, but still cheating on an emotional level.

As someone who was really hurt by my ex-husband's affairs, I think that if you want to truly repair the relationship with your wife, you need to end it with your lover, not keep on exchanging communications about how you both want to improve things with your respective spouses.

I am sorry that you were cheated on and I appreciate how hurtful that can be. I have not seen my ex for almost a year and everything I am doing is to extricate myself while finding closure. I feel that there is profound change in both myself and my ex, which can only improve both of our lives. However, in all honesty, there is no way my ex is going to accept breaking communication. I think the healthiest way to deal with this situation is for me to realistic. That means remaining in LC with my ex but never meeting, while improving my marriage. I understand you morally object that but after a great deal of pain, that is the way forward for me.

RF

[RomanticFool]

RF, are you exploring how to improve your relationship with your ex-lover? Or are you wanting to deepen your marriage? Those are probably mutually exclusive projects and it sounds as though that truth, which you wrote a lot about a few months back, has ebbed out of this discussion. Now, you comment that you value and want to strengthen you marriage, but you are devoting a ton of time to processing about the fine details of your dynamic with your ex-lover. With whom are you trying to improve things?

It is a fair question and the honest answer is I want to improve my r/s with both. Things have improved with the ex because we have both been getting much needed help to deal with our attachment.

The truth is still very much there in place. What is actually happening is that I am becoming much less extreme in my emotional reaction to this quagmire. I am trying to use my head to sort it out rather than my emotions.

I am not actually devoting that much time to this. I came on here again because I was triggered over Christmas and then my ex rang me to apologise for the way she has behaved. That is huge for her and for me. I have not seen my ex for almost a year and things are changing. Obviously I have no control over her behaviour but I feel we are coming to an understanding. To let go with consideration for each other. I think I will have to accept some form of LC.

My r/s with my wife is solid. We had a lovely Christmas and I am no longer obsessing over my ex. I feel there is more intimacy between my wife and I and the spectre of this painful r/s is beginning to recede. My truth is still intact. Yes, there have been emotional relapses and of course it is not an ideal situation. However, it is a vast improvement from when I came on here initially and was feeling heavily depressed bordering on suicidal. I was also feeling homicidal towards my ex and every time I slammed the door in her face she attacked me. When I finally found the strength to break it off completely, she made a suicide attempt.

I know this situation is not ideal. I have written about that very point extensively over the last 9 months. However, thanks to the excellent advice I have received here and the constant support to see my own personality traits, I am much much happier and progress is being made.

I appreciate many people on these boards are disapproving and critical of my position but I am the one involved in the situation and I must work it out the way I see fit. I am no longer engaged in an affair and I am no longer obsessed with my ex. I repeat that this was an emotional quagmire through which I am continuing to navigate more successfully than before.

RF

[Cat Familiar]

However, in all honesty, there is no way my ex is going to accept breaking communication. I think the healthiest way to deal with this situation is for me to realistic. That means remaining in LC with my ex but never meeting, while improving my marriage. I understand you morally object that but after a great deal of pain, that is the way forward for me.

RF

That both you and your ex are making positive changes in your life is great. I'm still wondering if your wife knows that you intend to keep in touch with your ex. If you are keeping this information from your wife, you are still maintaining a hidden relationship with your ex.

No, I don't morally object because people choose all sorts of different agreements in their relationships. But it does raise the question of who you are most intimately connected with on an emotional level--your ex or your wife? And if it's the former, not the latter, then I don't understand how this is serving to further your relationship with your wife and repair the damage.

And the idea that there's no way your ex would accept ending communication between you makes me wonder about the viability of any of these relationships. Would she try to disrupt your life with your wife? What would she do?

I can understand how painful this is for you. What I'm not hearing is any discussion of how this might impact your wife. Perhaps it's in previous threads, but it seems like your focus is primarily on this person with whom you say you're extricating yourself.

[RomanticFool]

And the idea that there's no way your ex would accept ending communication between you makes me wonder about the viability of any of these relationships. Would she try to disrupt your life with your wife? What would she do?

She is emotionally unstable. The last time I cut her off she tried to kill herself. I do not want to go back there emotionally and deal with the fallout of something like that again. I am dealing with a very sick woman who is getting help through the AA programme and I can see change. However, I feel that if I do something radical like cutting all form of communication she will go off the rails again and I will be bombarded with messages somewhere down the line. There are so many different ways for her to communicate with me, she would find a way. I also care about her wellbeing and I don't want to hurt her. She has BPDish behaviour and we all know how that goes.

I'm still wondering if your wife knows that you intend to keep in touch with your ex. If you are keeping this information from your wife, you are still maintaining a hidden relationship with your ex.

No, I don't morally object because people choose all sorts of different agreements in their relationships. But it does raise the question of who you are most intimately connected with on an emotional level--your ex or your wife? And if it's the former, not the latter, then I don't understand how this is serving to further your relationship with your wife and repair the damage.

My wife doesn't have to know everything about my life. I don't know everything about hers. I have not been communicating with my ex in a romantic way for some considerable time. There was a brief relapse where I agreed to meet, but it never happened and we both knew it was a bad idea.

What has changed the most is that I am feeling less attached to the ex and more attached to my wife. If I tell my wife about my ex she will divorce me. If I cut my ex off it leads to emotional armageddon. I know because I tried it. Therefore, my current strategy seems to be the best way forward.

I can understand how painful this is for you. What I'm not hearing is any discussion of how this might impact your wife. Perhaps it's in previous threads, but it seems like your focus is primarily on this person with whom you say you're extricating yourself.

I have addressed it in great detail in previous threads. My focus is improving my r/s with my wife by ending my attachment with my ex. That has always been my focus.

When my ex called me and apologised I broke down in tears. I feel like I've been suffering some kind of PTSD due to the extreme emotional impact her own crazy making and suffering has had on me, particularly when she was drinking. I also felt huge relief that we are both being healthier and more grown up emotionally.

I have had a lovely Christmas with my wife. She is happy and in fine fettle. LC with the ex means exchanging pleasantries from time to time. It no longer, for me, means cheating on my wife either physically or emotionally. That is where I am at right now.

[patientandclear]

I am sorry that you were cheated on and I appreciate how hurtful that can be. I have not seen my ex for almost a year and everything I am doing is to extricate myself while finding closure. I feel that there is profound change in both myself and my ex, which can only improve both of our lives. However, in all honesty, there is no way my ex is going to accept breaking communication. I think the healthiest way to deal with this situation is for me to realistic. That means remaining in LC with my ex but never meeting, while improving my marriage. I understand you morally object that but after a great deal of pain, that is the way forward for me.

RF

Oh RF. You would have met your ex-lover if SHE hadn’t called it off. Her unwillingness to keep the plan to meet you was the topic that kicked off this thread.

I’m not coming from a place of moral judgment—that doesn’t even enter into it for me. What I’m flagging is that YOU claim to have a goal of restoring and strengthening your marriage. These engagements with your ex-lover are emotional infidelity. You explore meeting and SHE shuts it down. You admit here that your wife would divorce you if she knew. You are withholding the information she needs to protect herself, the opposite of a loving stance.

I add this up to mean you are NOT committed to rebuilding your marriage.

I also have to call foul on the concept that you are powerless to end contact with your ex. If you do, I wager she will survive just fine. Is that painful to contemplate? I respectfully suggest you use this concept that she won’t let you end things or she will harm herself if you end things as a pretext for continuing something that gratifies you at some level. It’s drama, it’s exciting, it is nice to be wanted/important to someone. I get it. But this lady will manage if you are gone. How about making decisions with respect to what is best for you and any other relationship you are intending to make a permanent commitment to?

[formflier]

If you read your post, you are making decisions about your life based on "fear" of what another person, ( a disordered one at that) may do if you make choices about your life.

That's not a good place to be... .that's handing power to another person.  That can be fine is the other person has shown themselves trustworthy and stable... .which is not the case here.

To be clear... .do you KNOW that she tried to commit suicide or did she "tell you" she did.  Do you have independent evidence?

Remember, she does what it takes to pull you in.

FF

[RomanticFool]

Oh RF. You would have met your ex-lover if SHE hadn’t called it off. Her unwillingness to keep the plan to meet you was the topic that kicked off this thread.

I’m not coming from a place of moral judgment—that doesn’t even enter into it for me. What I’m flagging is that YOU claim to have a goal of restoring and strengthening your marriage. These engagements with your ex-lover are emotional infidelity. You explore meeting and SHE shuts it down. You admit here that your wife would divorce you if she knew. You are withholding the information she needs to protect herself, the opposite of a loving stance.

I add this up to mean you are NOT committed to rebuilding your marriage.

So would you have me tell my wife and destroy her happiness? Are you absolutely certain that is the best thing for my wife? I have thought about that and have been close to telling her on a number of occasions. The reason I didn't is because in all the time I have been on this forum I have not seen my ex. Yes, we made an arrangement to meet which we were both half-hearted about. She gave the tickets to the gig away. Had I met her then your point would hold. However, we didn't meet. Now I get that this seems a preposterous notion because there was a plan in place, but I considered that an emotional relapse. Perhaps a bit like alcohol addiction. For whatever reason my ex and I didn't meet, and part of it was that I was unclear and not keen to meet and she picked up on it.

Whatever people say to the contrary, there is clear moral judgement on these boards around infidelity. Your conclusion that I am not committed to rebuilding my marriage is not born out by the facts of my situation. I have not seen my ex in nearly a year. That is hugely significant and in my book is major progress. I have posted many times on here acknowledging the morality of this situation but things are improving and we no longer have emotional armageddon between myself and my ex, we are no longer meeting and I am no longer attached in the way that I was. Her phone call the other day gave me some kind of closure around the emotional trauma I've been through.

I am not asking anybody to condone what I have done but you are all going to have to take my word for the fact that I AM committed to my marriage. I feel much more available to my wife emotionally and am not sidetracked by emotional turmoil any longer. I also don't feel that confessing to my wife what I've been up to with my ex would serve anything if the affair is over. I understand people have a hard time understanding that but that is my position and I am comfortable with it at the moment. The fact that my wife has also accepted a sexless r/s for 8 years is something I am currently focussing on and trying to rectify. This stuff is not easy. Perhaps I should have ended both r/s a long time ago and started again, but I didn't and here I am trying to navigate my way through the murky waters of infidelity and all its repercussions.

I also have to call foul on the concept that you are powerless to end contact with your ex. If you do, I wager she will survive just fine. Is that painful to contemplate? I respectfully suggest you use this concept that she won’t let you end things or she will harm herself if you end things as a pretext for continuing something that gratifies you at some level. It’s drama, it’s exciting, it is nice to be wanted/important to someone. I get it. But this lady will manage if you are gone. How about making decisions with respect to what is best for you and any other relationship you are intending to make a permanent commitment to?

I am been through emotional hell. I don't want to do anything that would start any kind of emotional stress up again, in either of us. If you think this is an exciting and titillating situation for me, then you haven't read my posts properly. It has been traumatic and profoundly upsetting and I'm sure some would say I've gotten exactly what I have deserved. So be it. There is some peace and tranquility in my life at present and I am going cherish it. All the decisions I am making are about the r/s with my wife. Had I met up with my ex and carried on where we left off, this is the last place I would post as it would be like going to AA when you are still drinking. I am here because I have been honest, open and stayed away from my ex physically and the emotional attachment is alot less than it was.

RF

[RomanticFool]

If you read your post, you are making decisions about your life based on "fear" of what another person, ( a disordered one at that) may do if you make choices about your life.

That's not a good place to be... .that's handing power to another person.  That can be fine is the other person has shown themselves trustworthy and stable... .which is not the case here.

To be clear... .do you KNOW that she tried to commit suicide or did she "tell you" she did.  :)o you have independent evidence?

Remember, she does what it takes to pull you in.

I went through all of this when she told me she had tried to kill herself. Skip advised me to take it seriously and so I did. I took her at her word, rightly or wrongly, mainly because she told me she had been in hospital and that she was seeing a psychiatrist. I don't think it is good idea to accuse anybody of lying when they mention suicide. That was my hunch at the time and many others when I suggested it could manipulation on these boards. I will never know for sure if she did try to kill herself because I was advised not to become her counsellor. The question of trust with her is a big one and every time I mention my suspicions, Skip suggests that she may be honest with me. I have no real evidence she has ever lied to me about anything really.  I do have a pervading feeling that there have been lies, but again, I'll never know for sure and since I am no longer seeing her, it really doesn't matter to me anymore.

It is not so much I am staying in contact out of fear, but more in the interests of emotional harmony for myself so that I can concentrate on my marriage without this going on in the background. That is my position and it seems to be working.

[RomanticFool]

I just want to add something to the above posts. I am very aware that the apparent most functional and noble way to proceed in my situation would be to cut off all contact with my ex. However, I tried that - it led to an apparent suicide attempt from my ex and even worse emotional instability in myself. The element that one cannot take out of this situation is the extreme emotional responses on both sides of this equation. I understand why my ex wants to remain in contact with me but I would rather break it off completely. However, rather than remain in contact out of fear, after much cutting her off FB (Skip interpreted this as me trying to get a reaction from her) I have now come to the long winded and painful conclusion that the road of less intensity and emotional upset is the most successful way to proceed. Therefore I have reluctantly decided to stay LC.

In the past I never had contact with any ex girlfriend. Once the r/s was over I would cut them off to protect myself. I did much the same with my ex and lashed out when she contacted me as I had considered she had hurt me enough during the course of our r/s. I kept the WhatsApp contact open back then as I felt there were unresolved issues and despite my anger, probably hoped for some kind of reconciliation. As I came on these boards and learnt more about the nature of BPD, I contemplated on many occasions cutting her off completely ie FB, WhatsApp, email and phone. I could have done that and perhaps we would no longer be in contact. The time I was the most stoic about removing her from my life was in the summer and that was around the time when she made an apparent suicide attempt. I was then advised that the suicide attempt was not about me but rather her emotional dysregulation and whatever else was going on in her life at the time. However, one thing I know for sure, losing contact with me in no way helped her. So if I am being honest, and I try very hard to be here, I stay in contact with her because I want to know she is ok. This is not the exciting, titillation that it has been suggested here. On the contrary, there is nothing exciting or titillating about somebody you love trying to take their own life. The only people who would think so are those who have never experienced it.

I feel I have made tremendous progress on these boards. I have become aware of some of my own dysfunctional behaviours and my lack of empathy when emotionally engaged, specifically towards my ex. I see her these days less as a calculating and manipulative emotional wreck and more as a wounded butterfly who is trying her best to deal with her own BPDish behaviour caused by childhood trauma. Tonight for New Years eve I am going out to an event with my wife. My ex is going to an AA party to be with people who can give her the love and support she needs. That person is no longer me and I know it.

I wish everybody a wonderful New Year and to those of you suffering, hang in there and keep coming here and posting. It does get alot better if you speak your truth.

RF

[formflier]

I do agree you have made progress on these boards and I applaud your openness and honesty about this situation.

I would encourage you to continue and to look at these boards as people "reflecting back" what they see in your "internal monologue".  (how you talk to yourself, justify things to yourself, make decisions, etc etc).  

Can we also "agree" to set aside our opinions about the motivations of others on these boards?  We'll never know for sure, but dismissing an opinion that seems "judgmental" about infidelity has a very high risk of distorting the internal monologue that is being reflected back to you.

Moving away from yes and no, black and white:  The question is not a yes or no question about commitment to your wife.  I think the question is more "to what extent" does your commitment to your wife go.  You are obviously wrestling with that question.  I hope you continue to ask yourself that question... ."to what extent".  

The use of I, we and she.  The "connection" with your ex lover is obvious as is the apparent desire to lessen the impact or "ownership" of the "she" decisions.  Such as... . It came through loud and clear that SHE offered to meet and SHE ended the idea.  Then there was a shift to "we" ended the trip or were half hearted about it.

If SHE had made the trip, been alone in a hotel room and asked you to come in and resume a sexual relationship, my "opinion" is that you would have gone along with it.  I base that opinion on the totality of your posts, vice anything particular in this post.  It seems obvious you want more with her than she is offering.  That hurts, I get that.  

That's something for you to explore on these boards and hopefully in person with a T that can help guide you.

Just as likely as important, to explore your views and decisions regarding your relationship with your wife.

The woman that it appears you want to have a sexual relationship with is rejecting and or toying with you about your desire for her and the woman that appears to be sexually available to you is not being pursued.  That's something for you to understand on a much deeper level

That suicide is an added ingredient to this mix, only increases the seriousness of need for YOU to sort out your role in all this.  Clarity:  With my own authority I have put many Sailors in "med hold" or "psych hold" because of suicidal ideations.  All of those Sailors survived those episodes.  I also have the experience of burying squadron mates that were successful in suicide.  The investigations revealed many that "failed to act" and those people have a burden to carry for the rest of their lives.

Please accept that all on these boards understand how serious suicide is, but may choose to express it in different ways.

Pause... .big breath.

There is a lot going on in your life.  You are "wrestling" with some of the big questions.  Please accept our "reflections" and when you feel "judged"... .look to yourself for those answers and relief from those feelings.

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

It sounds like you are saying that you choose to continue a phone/text, etc relationship with your ex lover because you feel it is in the best interest of your ex lover, yourself and your wife.  And even that you feel there is actually no choice at all to be made because considering any other possibility is too triggering for those involved.  That it could trigger a death of a person (the ex), or death of a marriage, or death of peace between your wife and you, or end your own peace that you are trying to maintain.

So that you feel your communicating with her is a matter of life and death.  And if not life and death than a matter of the happiness of several involved.

I would challenge you to look at this belief (and even if I am even close) and what it means.

How long do you plan to continue to talk to your ex because to not do so could otherwise result in you feeling responsible for her death?  The next 20 years?  Or do you suspect there will be a time when you no longer carry a sense of responsibility for her life/mental health?

Put simply... .
Do you/Can you see a condition or time in the future where you are not talking to this woman for any reason?

Can you paint that situation for us?
Help us to imagine under what circumstances you WILL consider ending contact with the ex.