Still FOGGED in; could use a reality check

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Hi, folks,

I hope that everyone is preparing for a good start to 2018, and my good thoughts are with everyone for a better year than many we have had.

I'm embarrassed to post on here, given that I've been on the boards since 2014, and given that my relationship with my diagnosed ex BPD/NPDbf should long be in the rear view, but it's not. 

I really need a reality check, and there's no one else who can give it to me, especially myself, because apparently I'm still so deep down the rabbit hole that I can't tell which end is up.

Brief backstory: I left him after an 8+ year relationship in December 2016, a full year ago, and save for a brief 6 week recycle that landed me in the hospital this summer due to the stress, I have NOT been back with him.  I have told him and explained to him over and over that I will not be coming back because he hurt me too badly over the years with his abusive, unstable behavior, because I'm too old to have kids and he wants them, and because of a million other things.  He totally ignores my reasoning, basically talks (or texts) right over me, and literally contacts me every damn day (with very rare exceptions) to beg me to come back.  My major mistakes?  responding to him, and seeing him a few times, sometimes just to "talk" and a few times to go to the movies with him because he has literally no friends and made me feel like such a piece of crap when I said no (he was also fired recently from his first job after vaping weed in the company bathroom.  Smart move). 

His pleas and begging have escalated, because he is unemployed and has more time on his hands.  Yesterday he texted and called from 10:48 a.m. to 11:58 p.m., begging and pleading and screaming and crying and asking me if I wanted him to kill himself because my "cruel" actions of not wanting to be back together were causing him to think "I never cared" and that he couldn't take the pain. 

He is pushing hard for a "friends with benefits" arrangement that I have repeatedly told him I won't do. Well, if I cared about him I would.  At least for a few weeks, so he says.  And if I don't do it it means I never cared about him and the last 9 years of his life were a waste.  It sounds to me like a middle school kid telling his reluctant girlfriend "If you loved me you would have sex with me".  The horrible thing is he has my head so twisted that I'm thinking about giving in to him because I do still care about him and I don't want him to think that I dont.

This is all my fault at this point.  I can't be cruel to him, which leads me to think I can't go NC, and of course I'm hurting both of us in the long run by allowing the contact.  My friends and family, who loathe him, think I'm literally going to end up dead because he's going to "snap" (and psychotic breaks have happened before) - he's also been diagnosed as schizoaffective with paranoid tendencies.    I'm trying to let him down easy, but after a year it's not going to work. 

Please tell me because I can't see reality anymore….is this manipulation on his part?  I've tried to be kind, although I admittedly said some pretty nasty things yesterday, but being pushed for hours and hours left me with very little ability to validate him or think clearly. 

What do I do?  I believe that if I give in, it will just allow him to keep me on an emotional hook and waste more of my time and my life, because I have no interest in rekindling out relationship; as he is extremely disturbed and abusive.  I fear that if I say no he will either hurt himself or hurt me.  I feel that I am being blackmailed and yet I'm more concerned about his feelings than mine.

I didn't want to drag the carcass of this relationship into 2018, but it looks like I am…... help!

[chillamom]

Hi, folks,

I hope that everyone is preparing for a good start to 2018, and my good thoughts are with everyone for a better year than many we have had.

I'm embarrassed to post on here, given that I've been on the boards since 2014, and given that my relationship with my diagnosed ex BPD/NPDbf should long be in the rear view, but it's not. 

I really need a reality check, and there's no one else who can give it to me, especially myself, because apparently I'm still so deep down the rabbit hole that I can't tell which end is up.

Brief backstory: I left him after an 8+ year relationship in December 2016, a full year ago, and save for a brief 6 week recycle that landed me in the hospital this summer due to the stress, I have NOT been back with him.  I have told him and explained to him over and over that I will not be coming back because he hurt me too badly over the years with his abusive, unstable behavior, because I'm too old to have kids and he wants them, and because of a million other things.  He totally ignores my reasoning, basically talks (or texts) right over me, and literally contacts me every damn day (with very rare exceptions) to beg me to come back.  My major mistakes?  responding to him, and seeing him a few times, sometimes just to "talk" and a few times to go to the movies with him because he has literally no friends and made me feel like such a piece of crap when I said no (he was also fired recently from his first job after vaping weed in the company bathroom.  Smart move). 

His pleas and begging have escalated, because he is unemployed and has more time on his hands.  Yesterday he texted and called from 10:48 a.m. to 11:58 p.m., begging and pleading and screaming and crying and asking me if I wanted him to kill himself because my "cruel" actions of not wanting to be back together were causing him to think "I never cared" and that he couldn't take the pain. 

He is pushing hard for a "friends with benefits" arrangement that I have repeatedly told him I won't do. Well, if I cared about him I would.  At least for a few weeks, so he says.  And if I don't do it it means I never cared about him and the last 9 years of his life were a waste.  It sounds to me like a middle school kid telling his reluctant girlfriend "If you loved me you would have sex with me".  The horrible thing is he has my head so twisted that I'm thinking about giving in to him because I do still care about him and I don't want him to think that I dont.

This is all my fault at this point.  I can't be cruel to him, which leads me to think I can't go NC, and of course I'm hurting both of us in the long run by allowing the contact.  My friends and family, who loathe him, think I'm literally going to end up dead because he's going to "snap" (and psychotic breaks have happened before) - he's also been diagnosed as schizoaffective with paranoid tendencies.    I'm trying to let him down easy, but after a year it's not going to work. 

Please tell me because I can't see reality anymore….is this manipulation on his part?  I've tried to be kind, although I admittedly said some pretty nasty things yesterday, but being pushed for hours and hours left me with very little ability to validate him or think clearly. 

What do I do?  I believe that if I give in, it will just allow him to keep me on an emotional hook and waste more of my time and my life, because I have no interest in rekindling out relationship; as he is extremely disturbed and abusive.  I fear that if I say no he will either hurt himself or hurt me.  I feel that I am being blackmailed and yet I'm more concerned about his feelings than mine.

I didn't want to drag the carcass of this relationship into 2018, but it looks like I am…... help!

[gotbushels]

Hi chillamom  

I want to give you some support here.

I didn't want to drag the carcass of this relationship into 2018, but it looks like I am…

A part of you seems to really not want this relationship.

I really need a reality check, and there's no one else who can give it to me, especially myself, because apparently I'm still so deep down the rabbit hole that I can't tell which end is up.

I suggest you seek a qualified P or T to support you through this bit. I've sought one in the past for the extra support.

I would focus on these:

I have no interest in rekindling out relationship; as he is extremely disturbed and abusive.  ... .
I fear that if I say no he will either hurt himself or hurt me.  I feel that I am being blackmailed and yet I'm more concerned about his feelings than mine.

I hope things are peaceful with you.

[chillamom]

Thanks, gotbushels,

Thanks for your support!  I really don't want the relationship, and friends with benefits absolutely doesn't work for me.  I have been seeing a T and focusing on this bizarre relationship dynamic since 2009, she completely supports NC and has met this individual, whom she finds very "scary."  Despite all of this, he still has his hooks in me very deeply, and I have a hard time distinguishing manipulation from sincerity with him. Either way it really shouldn't matter because I know the right thing to do, I just can't seem to do it because I'm afraid of hurting an already vulnerable person even more.  Thanks!

[Insom]

Stay strong, chillamom.  

My major mistakes?  responding to him, and seeing him a few times, sometimes just to "talk" and a few times to go to the movies with him because he has literally no friends

As you may already know, intermittent reinforcement has an addictive quality that escalates seeking behavior.  If you want to be free of this relationship then you can't continue to respond in an intermittent way because it is making things worse.  Rather than relieving his pain (his and yours) your are intensifying it.  

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=63989.0

I can't be cruel to him, which leads me to think I can't go NC, and of course I'm hurting both of us in the long run by allowing the contact.  My friends and family, who loathe him, think I'm literally going to end up dead because he's going to "snap" (and psychotic breaks have happened before) - he's also been diagnosed as schizoaffective with paranoid tendencies.    I'm trying to let him down easy, but after a year it's not going to work.  

What I'm hearing here is that your friends and family believe he is dangerous and are worried for your safety.  How about you?   What do you feel?  Are they on or off base?


  

[chillamom]

Thanks, Insom,

And yes, clearly I am engaging in intermittent reinforcement, and well I know that it only continues the behavior.  I have to remind myself that whatever temporary relief he gets from this is only hurting him in the long run, because like I said, I'm still co-dependent enough to put his feelings far ahead of mine.

As for danger….I seriously don't know.  I get a "7" on the threat assessment, which objectively speaking means it's not a good situation.  He has never been physically abusive in the past, but I have been terribly frightened and intimidated by him and he has had several frank psychotic episodes in the past, which can definitely pose a threat to a person if they should become part of the delusion (I mean once, he thought I had hired a hit man to kill him and was terrified of passing cars - what if he had decided that he had to kill me first to address the threat?). He has also blocked my way out of a room, prevented me from leaving a vehicle on many occasions, and broken a lot of things, punched holes in walls, etc.   I just don't know; I don't want to stigmatize and say that his mental illness makes him dangerous, but….I think it does.  it's one of the reasons I think maybe I should acquiesce to keep myself and others safe, but that's essentially blackmail, isn't it?  I just don't know.

[Insom]

 

it's one of the reasons I think maybe I should acquiesce to keep myself and others safe, but that's essentially blackmail, isn't it? 

Wouldn't acquiescing at this point qualify as an instance of intermittent reinforcement?  If so, it will likely make things worse (more intense, more addicted) which won't make you or others safe.

It sounds like you feel victimized by this person.

[chillamom]

Insom, you're absolutely right, acquiescence would be the ultimate example of intermittent reinforcement and would obliterate my many months of steadfastly holding to my beliefs.  Of course, he counters this by saying he would be willing to go away and leave me alone when my semester break is over in mid-January, because he "respects" my wishes  . 

I do feel victimized, almost blackmailed, and he is effectively holding me hostage to his emotional outbursts.  Since he hasn't directly threatened me, there is no place for a RO or anything of that nature, but if he should show up on my doorstep I would call the police.  I have told him that, and since he is terrified of having a record, that is something that keeps him physically at bay,

[Fie]

Dear Chillamom,


First please accept my big hug, because I feel you need one  

I am happy you posted, you seem very stressed and you need all the support you can get.

I'm embarrassed to post on here, given that I've been on the boards since 2014, and given that my relationship with my diagnosed ex BPD/NPDbf should long be in the rear view, but it's not.  

You have nothing to be embarrassed for. You are human like the rest of us.  If everyone was perfect, these boards would be empty : no BPD and no victims.

You seem a very empathic and sweet person. You are saying that you are in treatment since 2009. Do you have the feeling this therapist / kind of therapy fits you ? Would you say you have made progress in the issues you are approaching together ?

In my personal opinion there is only one solution for your problem : cutting all contact, as from now immediately. There is no way you should waste your life on anyone, moreover not on someone you do not want to be with. You are saying that you feel guilt over letting him go. You also say you are afraid of the things he might do, to himself or to you.

Wouldn't you say that everyone is responsible for his own life ? And that if someone is determined to take his life, we cannot prevent this ? This may sound harsh ... but I have a history with this. Years ago my then best friend emotionally blackmailed me to have a relationship with him. His threats to commit suicide were unbearable, and I was suffering so much. In the end I didn't want to live anymore myself ... .Somehow, at one moment, I decided it had to stop. After his second attempt, I told myself it was enough, and that maybe he didn't even mean it. I stopped seeing him, I told him to leave me alone. It was the best decision I could take. Suddenly he didn't seem so miserable anymore, and the suicide threats stopped. I was so depressed and I had to start over my own life after that.

You mention being afraid of harm he would do to you. But at another point you are mentioning that he is afraid to have a record, and therefore doesn't turn up anymore at your doorstep.
Also here I have a history with. (Yes I know, I've had my share of unhealthy people in my life) The only way I could get my NPD ex to stop harassing me (texts, threats to show up at my doorstep) was telling him : 'one more message and I am reporting you to the police for stalking'. The messages stopped instantly (he was in my country with a temporary stay permit and was terrified of having a record too).

Another thing. You are saying you are doing all of this for him (responding to messages and even meeting). Another member mentioned intermittent reinforcement and I agree with that. I also think however that you are not doing your ex any favor. You are giving him hope each time you listen / respond. There is only one way to deal with this : cold turkey, not only for you, but also for him.

How he will respond to this is out of your hands. But now you are somehow leading him on. Again, I think you sound like a very sweet person, and I know you don't want to do anything of this. But the end result it exactly that.

What do you think ? Or better, what do you feel ? You have probably thought this over and over, twisted everything 100 times in your head. I don't think thinking helps us very far in matters like this.
So, how do you feel about this ? What is your gut instinct telling you ?

ps and to answer your question : yes of course he's manipulating you. Whether he means his threats or not.


xxx

[Sunfl0wer]

Wow, so much to this situation that I feel inept to reply.  Thankfully you have recieved some very thoughtful replies!

It sounds like you are saying that you are standing at the threshold of a decision.
Not the decision to stop contact or persue safety for yourself... .
But you express the decision you feel imminently faced with is whether to have sex to appease and calm someone or not.

Do I have this correct?

What do you think will happen if you did decide to give in and have sex?
How will this impact things both in good ways and in the not so good ways?

I am thinking maybe you could benefit from us guiding you through thinking this out some.

(This seems like such a personal decision that I am thinking any advice I could share would not be helpful.  I am thinking maybe helping you think through your own thoughts, without my judgement, could be more useful at this moment.)

[sweetheart]

Hi chillamom,

Can you explore here what NC will actively look like for you?
Is it possible to go NC and not bump in to this guy, would he, could he just turn up where you live, work?

You say he is a '7' based on his presentation of psychotic symptoms. Your safety is paramount, what would a Safety Plan look like for you as part of going NC?

Do you have friends and family who are aware of your situation, could you as a starting point go and stay with someone for a while to help start this process?

[chillamom]

Thanks to people for responding, I'm very grateful for the support.

Fie I really appreciate you sharing your personal experiences with me, and rationally I know the only way to free myself from this is NC, whatever the consequences will be.  I've shared on the board before that this has always been a conundrum for me; my empathy (and still my feelings) for him have prevented me from doing this, and obviously there is something in me that still resonates with the fact he "cares" about me.  I have good friends and my adult daughters around me, but I am very lonely and haven't been able to bring myself to date others.  It's been a year without my ex (although not really "without" as you can see) and I seem to be emotionally cemented in place, so really neither of us will move on unless I cut all ties. 

I don't think my T has been much help, she's a nice woman, but I really need someone very directive.  I think it might be hard for me to find that because I have a PhD in psychology and pretty much know the drill myself.

I like your point about the cold turkey being the best thing for him too, although he obviously insists that is not the case.  He claims that if I just see him for a little while, he will know that "I still care" and thus be able to move on.  It sounds like utter bs to me.

My gut instinct tells me to stay away completely, but if I had listened to my gut in the first place I'd have run away the first time I met him. 

SunFl0wer definitely at the threshold or a choice point of finally abandoning this or going back to some kind of arrangement that ostensibly benefits him only.  Apparently ready to throw away all my self-respect to allow him to be soothed.  What do I think will happen if I give in to him?  I think he will use sex as a hook to try to get me back into a relationship with him, he admits he wants that, and I don't think anything would ever be different than before.  His abusive behavior would undoubtedly return, my family would disown me if they found out, and I will lose any sense of self-esteem I've managed to salvage since leaving him.  The stress will also further damage my health, as our last recycle landed me in the hospital.  I don't see anything good coming out of this, other than he will be temporarily soothed and MAYBE just MAYBE might leave me alone, if I am to believe him. 

Sweetheart If I went NC it is my fear that he could turn up at my home or my work.  He hasn't done so yet because he is deathly afraid of police involvement and is pretty aware that I wouldn't hesitate to call them (particularly at the University where I work).  My family and friends are aware of things and pretty freaked out as well, but I honestly do think the we're safe at home.  My daughters who live at home would not hesitate to call 911 if they saw any trace of him.  My real danger would be brought on by myself if I chose to see him

I just wish that I could feel less guilty.  I just wish that I still didn't care about him.  I just wish that there was some rational way to let him know I still do care about his well being without letting him back into my life in some sort of friends with benefits arrangement.  I'm so sick of this person dominating every aspect of my damn life.  I met him in April 2008 and that's just a few months short of a decade.

He's like a relentless shark that smells blood in the water.  I swear if I could fake my own death to escape I would.

Thanks for listening.

[drained1996]

I don't think my T has been much help, she's a nice woman, but I really need someone very directive.  I think it might be hard for me to find that because I have a PhD in psychology and pretty much know the drill myself.

Then you need to find one who is very directive.  Though you may know the drill logically... .the FOG has you in a place where you cannot subjectively see your own actions nor his.  Hell... .we've all been there, so don't feel alone in that department. 
Other than how you think you "feel" about him now... .give us one positive thing that would show you may have a future with this person... .
I felt horrible about myself too... .how was I going to find someone who loved me as much as she did?  How in the world could I end it with someone I knew loved me to the best of her ability?  It wasn't her fault that she had issues. I can fix her... .
Wash, repeat, wash, repeat, wash, repeat... .
The definition of insanity... .and I played my part. 

What I learned, was it was my fault for not having good boundaries, otherwise it never would've become so enmeshed.  It was my fault for continuing, even after having some comprehension of what I was facing.  Why did I do that?  Part of the reason I've learned were my own FOO issues.  I learned that I had always put others feelings first... .and that my feelings didn't matter... .that's what my FOO taught me and expected... .right up till the point I decided otherwise.  That movement started with ending things with my exBPDgf... .and has since trickled down to my family.  You see, WE deserve to be loved and respected.  Anyone who does not love and respect us properly has no place in our daily lives.  You Chillamom, deserve to be loved and respected properly.   It's up to us to put ourselves in a position to be loved and respected by those we choose to have in our lives.  We first have to learn to love and respect ourselves... .once that began to happen for me, the rest kind of fell into place. 
It's time for NC... .it's time to respect yourself.  It's not about him... .it's about YOU. You are not responsible for him in any fashion.  Just as he is not responsible for you.   

[happendtome]

One of my friends started to ignore me because all i did was talking about my ex. If you date crazy you must be crazy yourself. He was right. Yes, i did look like a crazy.

My ex doesnt beg me, she married my replacement, but my replacement is lot like your dude. Begging, crying, pathetic guy front of my ex when something serious has happened. But front of others he has that "im the boss" attitude.
So, i have read your story, i have read threads from improving board and i see lots of women being at the same place where my ex is now. Now, my ex had issues herself too. My point is that if you want to fix then you need to start from yourself.

I did that myself, i have read lots of materials, gone through moments when i was with her. Asked from myself is that something that i need or want. And im healing. Im almost 100% certain that something like that wont happen to me again. You need to do same thing. You have already played with your health, next you will start to lose friends and family members and then it will be your job. Is that really what you want from your life?
And once you have lost everything your ex will be gone, because they dont love weak people.

[Sunfl0wer]

It sounds like you have a good handle on what the result would be if you decided to have sex with him.

So maybe the issue is learning to use wisemind? Are you familiar with wisemind?

I don't think my T has been much help, she's a nice woman, but I really need someone very directive

By “directive” do you mean you want her to tell you what to do or make choices for you?

I have been in/out of therapy since I was 5 (over 35 yrs) and never has any therapist worth a dime taken a role of telling me what to do.  It is not their job to make decisions for a person.  They cannot take responsibility for another persons choices.  Or maybe I am understanding your comment wrong, idk.

We all have to make our own decisions and be responsible for the ones we make.  There is no getting around this.
... .

Also, I see you say that if others saw him, that they would not hesitate to call 911.  Sorry I do not know the details of your history with this person.  (I am unable to search here and look stuff up) However, if he is unsafe, it could be best to also gain the support of folks from a domestic violence shelter. While you may not need a shelter, the staff there may help you in creating a detailed plan to keep yourself safe and it may help working out the day to day pragmatic details of your situation to maintain your safety.

[Fie]

Hello Chillamom  

You seem to actually know what to do ... .you seem to agree with the advice people give you ... .yet, you find yourself unable to follow through, because you feel stuck. Is that correct ?

Do you think there is more to it then just feeling sorry for him ? Because if it were only feeling sorry, then the cold turkey approach could be your solution ... ?

Do you think you'd feel lonely, abandoned, cutting all ties with him ?

If so, I have a reading suggestion for you ; 'The journey from abandonment to healing'. It was quite an eye opener to me and it has helped me feel less alone in those feelings of being 'stuck'.

Please keep posting. You are not alone.

[heartandwhole]

Hi Chillamom,

I'm so sorry this is happening.   I can hear the desperation in your post. It's a crappy place to be—terrified of "hurting" another person. I've been there, and for me, it's such a difficult position.

In my experience, people with caretaking tendencies often put others' feelings ahead of their own. It can be how we learned to cope and get what we need, in addition to just wanting to be kind and helpful.

You asked for a reality check, so here are some thoughts:

1) You are not helping him. You are not helping yourself. You are diving down into the abyss of dependency, FOG, guilt, desperation, and low self-esteem. One of you has to step out of that hole for anything to change, and you know it has to be you.    Otherwise, you are both going down together.

2) He may threaten suicide, which is terribly upsetting to contemplate. I'd feel very guilty and worried if it were me. But please remember: we can say that this situation has become "life and death" for you as well. Your heart literally can't take it anymore. Your body is communicating loudly and clearly with you. Please listen. Sacrificing your wellbeing for another person gets both of you a big fat zero.

3) He is not capable of caring for you in the way that you want and need. You've had a decade to realize this, and you have. Now is the time to plan a strategy to move forward with your life. You have no more time, Chillamom. This is your life and there are no do-overs. There is help and support all around. You are not alone, although I know it can feel bitterly lonesome in times like these. You can live differently. You can have a better and more fulfilling life. It starts the second you are willing to change.

You think that communicating boundaries will cause him pain, but not having boundaries is causing you pain. So, there are two people in pain. Who is helping whom? Don't fool yourself that if you give in to his emotional/sexual demands that his pain will go away. I'm betting there will be something else that comes up. In the meantime, you will have lost self-respect and broken your heart all over again. I would hate to see that happen.

I'm saying all this as a person who has been in similar situations where I couldn't see what was right in front of me; where I just couldn't let go. You are not alone—we care a lot about you, Chillamom.  

So, what is step one for Jan. 1st?   One change you can commit to? It can be a very small step, like "From now on I will only respond to his messages every second Thursday." Or, "I will begin a safety plan the first week of January."

heartandwhole
 

  

[donkey2016]

Hi Chillamom,

You got some very good responses to your post. I hope that I can add something. I want to respond because I have followed your story and I wish you'll be able to become free. I think hearth and whole gave you a very good advice - start slowly with only writing or calling your "friend" once a week but start right away to have a safety plan.

I agree with some of the posts here that maybe you need another kind of therapy. I was also going to a psychologist for a long time and it was not really helping me. She talked a lot about herself, other work she was doing and her other clients/patients! I'm now instead seeing a social worker at a women's shelter - which I find more helpful. She can actually give me practical advice how to deal with suicide threats and other threats - more than "call the police". One advice I got from the shelter was not to give in for suicide threats. What I did once was to call the police who directed me to the local police close to where my ex boyfriend lives. Finally I didn't call them. It was still helpful since I told me ex boyfriend that I had called the police and got the number to the local police. He hardly believed me and seemed disappointed in me for doing that. He realized that I was now serious with ending it with him and not giving in for his threats anymore. I stopped having problems with him.

It felt so difficult to not have contact with him so I continued with only email-contact. He stopped contacting me - we have very little email exchange (once every two weeks). I'm starting to accept to let go completely. Still I find it hurtful that he can let go so easily after all the fuss.

How confusing these relationships with BPD people are!
Hang in there - you deserve a nice and calm partner,
donkey2016

[Harley Quinn]

Hi Chillamom,

I'm so sorry to hear after all you've endured that you find yourself still caught in this FOG.  You have had great responses, and I know your story well, so the one thing I want to point out is the cold hard truth, which may or may not be what you need to hear right now.  However I think it's important to cover all angles in fairness to you.  

This man talked about having a child with your daughter.  He scares you.  He is suggesting that you have sex with him against your wishes so that he will leave you alone.  None of this is healthy and none of this is normal.  You are a wonderful kind empathetic human being and he is draining the life force from you to the point that you would even consider for a second meeting his wishes in the hope that he might keep his word.  Has he kept his word in the past enough that you think there is even the remotest chance of that being the case here?  You're a smart lady and know exactly what he is up to, as you've already stated.  So I'd encourage you to put that thought where it belongs and instead think seriously about what your motivation is for keeping this man in your life.  

You deserve to be happy and free and to breathe easily without having confusion, guilt, fear, anxiety, obligation, stress and worry as part of your life every day.  You've already been hospitalised once.  Chillamom, I say this with love.  It is your choice entirely what you do, and we care about you and will support you whatever your decision as to the best way forwards.  There are some great suggestions here and I particularly agree with the idea of changing therapists and quickly, as your struggle with this situation and the underlying reasons need better support.  The fact you're getting that type of help shows your awareness that you need it, so make it count for you and expect the progress that you are capable of.  

What I want to stress here is that you do have a choice.  That choice is entirely your own and the choice is him or you.  If you stop this, he will either learn to take a hold of his own life finally, or will find someone else to lean on.  If you continue, what does the future look like to you?  I know you're in the place now where you need that nudge to care enough about yourself to take steps.  That's because I've been there myself.  You have a lot of people here who care and a family who adore you and are sad to see you stuck in this bind.  See that you are worthy of more than this Chillamom.  You truly are.

I know it's important to you that you show him you care and you put a stop to this for your own sake.  You've also stated that NC is the way you feel you must go.
 These can be achieved simultaneously.  Saying the words to him won't prevent him from dysregulating, however that is going to happen whatever you do.  It's not a good enough reason to go on hurting yourself.  "Because I care about you and because I care about myself and my family, I am no longer going to remain in contact with you.  I know this is painful for you.  We both need to move on and work on our own lives from this point.  It is for the best for both of us.  Look after yourself.  I wish you well.  Please respect my wishes and don't contact me again."

Love and light x

  

[gotbushels]

Hi chillamom   we're supporting you here through this time. If you'd like just a reality check, I think you've gotten some tremendously supportive posts from the members and staff here    I just wanted to follow up on some ideas that came out to me from this discussion that could help you.

I have been seeing a T ... .whom she finds very "scary."

Yes, he seems scary, many of us here probably wouldn't want to be around this person, and it doesn't look like you're safe.

Despite all of this, he still has his hooks in me very deeply,

It's reading like you want out, but something is keeping you from it. I suggest you work at that--because I'd like to share that hooks are part of what hooked me too. Hooks tend to cause reactivity, guilt, feelings like the victim. Investigate what it is specifically with your hooks that's keeping you emotionally stuck. Use your T for it. Bring it up. Change it.

I have a hard time distinguishing manipulation from sincerity with him.

This helped me a lot:

• Realizing you can't control what people choose to think: You can't make everyone happy—least of all someone who is projecting their own unhappiness on to you. Stop taking responsibility for the BP's inner world and start taking responsibility for your own.

(2010ed, p111, link)


I'd like to support you here; something that helped me a lot around the being stuck was to calendar the events. That will give you structure and clarity. Benefit, it will prompt you to guide you own actions--at the least, it will show you an overview of what is going on.

I don't know what it is exactly about this that works, but when I was in a position of uncertainty, I wanted to get clarity, I wanted to set some direction--this helped a lot. I was like, "Hey, this is happening thrice a week sometimes--I don't want that".

I hope things are peaceful with you.

[chillamom]

I just want to thank everyone who responded to me in such a thoughtful and empathic way - I will be getting back to you to thank you more personally but I find myself too overwhelmed tonight. I'm really overwhelmed by your kindness, and also overwhelmed by the ex, whom I wisely continue to hold at bay.  I think I'm like an addict who is trying hard to kick the habit and almost has, but now defines herself entirely by what she doesn't have….I don't know if that makes sense but I so appreciate the clarity and focus that you are trying to help me maintain.  It makes me feel like I don't have to fight this alone, thank you so much.

[drained1996]

You are certainly not alone... .

[Fie]

think I'm like an addict who is trying hard to kick the habit and almost has, but now defines herself entirely by what she doesn't have….I don't know if that makes sense

To me, yes it does make sense because I have been in that state myself.

And now I am out. You will be too. And we will help you get through it.

[Lalathegreat]

Chillamom - I want to add my hugs and support... .

I know firsthand because you have supported me many times that you are a kind, considerate person. It pains me that you are having such a hard time moving forward, but I also completely understand why it's hard.

Your comment about addiction is something that hits home for me. I could never bring myself to walk away no matter how horrible it got. And even when there was no good left, I found myself craving him. Not the "him" he had become, the "him" he had been when I met him. And I kept chasing long after that person was gone. Because I was hoping for a "hit" of that intoxicating energy that had SO invigorated me in the beginning. It's real. And it's insidious because it keeps us trapped.

As for NC, I can tell you that there is NO WAY that I would be where I am now if a criminal no contact order hadn't FORCED NC. I know that I was not in a place where I could have chosen it and walked away. I relate to your struggle. BUT... .it HAS now been almost 6 months since I have seen, or heard anything from my ex. And that separation has allowed me to find some fragile healing. It is going to be long for me, and hard. And I spent much less time with my ex than you did. But I am in a much better place now. A much clearer place. He is still on my mind and in my thoughts. I still fear what he could do. But that is a matter of working through my own trauma. I cannot tell you how many times a day I will encounter something that would have set ex off and feel a flood of relief from not having to be concerned with it. I go out with the people I choose, WHEN I choose and am rebuilding friendships that had been lost in the vacuum of that relationship. I wear what I want to wear - and I don't have to care if he thinks it's too sexy or frumpy. (I couldn't win!) I am relieved everyday that I no longer live my life attempting to not trigger him. And I want the same for you - you deserve some peace!

 

Lala

[Sunfl0wer]

 

[Bo123]

Chillamom--Tough situation.  I read all the posts twice and can't find 1 single reason for you to do anything other than go NC and the first sign of any aggression from him, 911.  I also don't see much interest in you wanting to do the same but are having a difficult time with his manipulation.  Is this the type of relationship you want?  While some have hope to get back together in a normal fashion, I don't see that as even being possible here, it would be more of the same.  Your T seems to agree, I think you agree and protecting yourself, making sure all your friends know.  Stay with them or have them stay with you and get out alive.  I simply don't like the way this is shaping up.  I know it's tough, best of luck.

[donkey2016]

Hello Chillamom and also the others posting here,

Thank you everybody for your input especially Lala. This has been helpful also for me and probably for others as well who are reading this. I'm also struggling with the "addiction" that Lala explained so well. What helped me a lot (besides this forum) is to keep a journal. I have a journal going back to 2014 (just a few entries the first two years) - when I miss my ex boyfriend - I read that journal about all the crazy things that he did and how much that was effecting me. I sometimes, like Lala, feel a relief for not having to deal with my ex.

I also used the journal to note down goals for myself, such as, I'll not give him the keys to my apartment anymore, I'm going to stop bringing him food, I'm not going to answer every single text or call phone, as well as long term goals, break up with him and become a free woman.

The thing is that someone tried to tell me in one post (Circle) - if there's nothing to get from bothering you then it will eventually stop. The interest of the BPD person is shortlived - and it can be surprising who quickly it can end - from one day to the next. I knew that and I kept reminding me about that.

Maybe it would be the same for you Chillamom - do you think your ex would continue to contact you if he found someone else? Maybe he would not even answer your texts and phone calls. I know that my ex wouldn't - he would go no contact. I'm just throwing it out there.

Chillamom, you don't have to answer all of us separately - just let us know that you're okay.

Best wishes for the new year,
donkey2016

[chillamom]

Thank you, heartandwhole.  I actually copied down the three points you made to my phone so I can read them like a little mantra when I'm feeling particularly overwrought; the main thing is I need to keep in mind that I am not helping myself OR him.  At this point, I still can't seem to get the focus off of HIS feelings and onto the self-love and self-care that I know are needed; this is obviously a pretty deep-rooted thing that years of therapy and also years of a professional psychology career seemingly can't erase.  I've been spending a great deal of time reflecting on why this person who is so obviously harmful to me is still twisted around my neurons, and of course I can see a lot of issues in my FOO that drive me in this direction.  So much for Freud's adage that the "truth will set you free".  I'm pretty sure I see the truth in my own codependency and need for validation, and honestly having a much younger and very attractive partner was pretty validating for someone who grew up very, very overweight and bullied because of that.  Even though those days are long long past, I still obviously carry the self-image and self-loathing of someone who literally didn't "fit in" anywhere.  This probably sounds horrendously shallow, and I hate to even admit it to myself, but I'm still that really fat and miserable adolescent looking for acceptance - maybe it was at some level "worth it" to me to put up with abuse as long as there was someone who was a visible reminder that I was now a different person (at least physically).  That's a very very sad statement, and something that will obviously still drive me unless I can put the past to rest.  Thank you for letting me express that, maybe someone can relate?

drained1996 I even have problems leaving my therapist!  She's such a nice person (and went to the same grad program as I did) that I have trouble "firing" her!  I can't even end a therapeutic relationship, apparently!  Seriously, though, I know there is no therapist who is ethical and professional who would ever TELL me what to do, and hell, I have you folks as well as assorted friends and family who tell me what to do and I don't listen anyway.  Sometimes, I feel pretty hopeless and think that self-help via my own efforts and bpdfamily are the only things that are going to work here.  And your comment about boundaries is obviously spot on….I had very "permeable" ones that allowed me to walk past all the red flags my ex waved in my face and keep going.  I was like some sort of Don Quixote is hoping against hope that I could fix him, as I think many of us have been at some point or another.

Harley Quinn thanks for the reminder, I need to keep in mind the harsh truths of who this person is and the kinds of things he has "suggested" and done; I hate to say this but a lot of these things are really beyond redemption.  I know they are the result of a disturbed and tortured mind, but I cant allow him to keep disturbing and torturing MY mind, which I have done.  And you're right, the choice is simple - him or me. Him or everything else that matters to me. I have to keep this in mind, and it's difficult when he's pleading and begging and crying and insulting  and all I want to do is JADE.  I really like the suggestion that you provided for a final statement before going NC, and I know that's the only choice that makes sense.  I have to find the strength to do it.  I don't understand what I cant right now... I've had miscarriages, dealt with infertility and illness, lost both parents, had a divorce, been through bankruptcy and come out the other side with sound finances, and generally gone through many types of difficulty in my life, but I can't seem to finally get out of some warped and painful situation with this nightmare of a person?  I have to starting acting and stop thinking, thank you…...

[chillamom]

Lala, thank you for the hugs and support, back at you!  I know that you're currently in the midst of a very anxiety-provoking situation, and I echo the OP who said to you that everything is on YOUR side here….any "smear" campaigns or other insanity your ex might launch after his release are going to be completely, immediately, and utterly discounted by everyone who encounters them.  Its abundantly clear to everyone what he has done and although I completely understand how nervous you are about the upcoming (and so horribly premature!) release, I believe 100% that you are safe in every way.  Please don't allow your feelings for his son and the kindness of the grandmother that you have kept in touch with to alter this in any way….I think you and I have the same overactive empathy, and for you, the result in the past was simply unspeakable. I'm so glad that you are healing and hope those kindergarteners of yours are keeping you busy!

And sadly, I do resonate with what you said about the awful events that transpired being the only thing that really could have finalized the situation for you.  As I recall, there were many, many things leading up to the event that would have caused the vast majority of women to say no more, and yet it took something drastic beyond measure to finally bring that about.  All that stuff about trauma bonding used to be so very abstract - I think now that it's very real, and I'm glad that you are no longer hearing his voice in your head when you make those little decisions about how to live your life.

I had to laugh a bit when you wrote about not worrying about clothing choices and such any longer.  I just realized that in the past few months I have gone a little bit nuts spending money on some pretty nice clothes and also particularly on some nice perfumes.  :)on't know if you have Ulta and Sephora by you, but my credit cards have been getting a workout. I just realized that the root of it is I can now try to look and smell nice every damn day if I want to, without being accused of putting on mascara or cologne to "attract other men."  Yup, when I was with him I could barely wear makeup or perfume because it just meant I was out there looking to replace him….so Yay to doing and wearing and being the way we want!  Seriously though, I think about you and your situation a lot and am very grateful that you're doing well!

[chillamom]

Hi, Donkey2016,  The journal ideas is very helpful, and I did indeed keep one for the last year we were together.  I do go back and read sections of it fairly often, and it scares me that I am NOT as horrified as I should be by a lot of the things that he said and did.  I think I have a significant amount of abuse amnesia and have let the passing of time soften his behaviors, but I really have to make an effort to keep them front and center.

I also pretty much know for a fact he would NOT leave me alone if he found another "victim".  Back in the summer of 2015, I had broken up with him for about 6 months, and I know he dated another women (who looked creepily SO much like me!) for a month or so.  He didn't tell me about it until after we got back together (obviously HUGE mistake) but during the entire time he dated her he was calling me constantly trying to get me back, so apparently he wants "supply" from me even if he has someone else around.

I DO think he might move on if he knew I was seeing someone else, so it may be time to lie and make up that boyfriend!  In all honestly, I really would like to start dating, but I have to get the ex out of my head first, and I'm also maybe not so irrationally scared of the fact that if I DID see someone else it might tip the ex into violence me.  Thank you for sharing your ideas though - one way or another this will end!

[chillamom]

Bo123,

You're right, this is definitely not the kind of "relationship" I want.   I don't like the way things are shaping up either, based on past behavior he is due for some kind of "explosion" that will probably result in another trip to the hospital for him, or a trip to jail if he somehow decides to show up on my doorstep (which I don't think he will because he is scared of the police).  I realize there is no hope of us ever getting back together, nor do I want to, but I still wish there was some was to be amicable and sane about the whole thing - which won't happen because he has demonstrated repeatedly that he's pretty much incapable.