Post holiday stress

[waitingwife]

My cousins were visiting for the holidays and there was a awkward situation. They didn’t rent a car and asked to borrow our oneday. UBPDH said straight up that he’s not comfortable lending our cars(which is fair enough) , he offered them to Uber or give them a ride to the rentalcar place. Now the previous week, my brother let my cousin borrow his car for a week so the expectation on my cousins part was we’ll do the same. H had given him a ride on one day for shopping but the day he asked to borrow, we had stuff todo around the house and didn’t want to chauffeur them all day.
Cousin got upset and took Uber & left with his wife. We baby sat their 2 kids while they met friends & shopped all day. Cousin was very passive aggressive with my H and that ticked off H. I told H that we cannot control cousin from having his reactions and it’s wrong for him to do what he’s doing but I’m glad we didn’t stretch ourselves too thin. This is something we had discussed but it made me very anxious and I had palpitations until the cousins left today.
My earlier codependent self would go into people pleasing mode and covertly force or fight with H to bend over backwards to please the cousins.
I can tell that I missed the S & E of the SET. Today morning at the breakfast table,   H was very quiet and it was kinda awkward between us.
TatteredHeart and all of you - please share your thoughts

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[Tattered Heart]

Good job for you and your H for not allowing yourself to be put out by your cousin's request. I know it was probably very uncomfortable with him being passive aggressive, but hopefully it set a precedent for him that let him know in the future, their refusal to rent a car could become uncomfortable for them. Just keep reminding yourself that you and your H made a plan, stuck to it, and your cousin's response is not your fault.

Your H may be struggling with some of the same uncomfortableness that your cousin created that you are. pwBPD have great difficulty with feeling rejected when someone treats them passive aggressively so he may be feeling bad for not letting him borrow the car but also angry and rejected at the way your cousin treated him. My H does this ALOT. He doesn't want to do something, so he doesn't do it, but then he feels guilty about not doing it. Then if someone else piles on a little guilt about him not doing it, it leads to pretty intense feelings of rejection.

What do you think your H is feeling right now? What do you think he needs? How can you support and validate him in his feelings/needs?

[waitingwife]

I think H needs some reassurance that he did the right thing? Yesterday I was not being very helpful, I in fact was telling H that I’m having a lotnof anxiety after H & cousin has the talk about the car. H said let cousins deal/fight/offload his yucky feeling between himself & his wife. We decided this and let’s be on the same team. I said yes that makes sense but I couldn’t shake off the awkwardness because I was physically in the same house as everybody and couldn’t step away or go out to get a breather.
I’m thinking I’ll ask H to have a conversation so we can process whatever just happened and start over. How does this sound:
I’m very proud of how you handled the car borrowing situation just as we had discussed. You were very supportive of my request to be gracious hosts(coz he did a lot of awesome things for them like cook breakfast, host a big New Years eve party,entertain their kids when they were out,  chauffeur them for shopping one day out of 3). . I usually have a hard time saying NO due to my FOO issues(he knows I’m working hard at overcoming my codependency issues), thank you for doing the courageous thing for US both. I’m sorry if I seemed a little distant, it’s not because of anythinf you said/did, but having a difference with anybody throws me off and I’m working at getting better at handling it. What are your thoughts? Is there anything I can do to help you to process this?
What else can I say? I really struggle with empathy sometimes coz I haven’t seen my FOO use it much. We always were asked to not show our deepest feelings/emotions, let alone talk about them. Even now my mom doesn’t talk or let me talk when we have differences

[waitingwife]

TatteredHeart- what are your thoughts? Nowadays ever since I’ve made changes(the biggest being initiating a conversation with h which I struggled a LOT from fear of setting him or myself off), I find it very difficult to stay in this “awkward state” for too long. Earlier we’d spend days in silence but now it’s much better... .It’s come down to 24 to 48 hours. It has also helped that I’ve gone back to full time work so I don’t obsess over how/what he’s feeling more than what is required

[Tattered Heart]

That sounds like a good conversation to have. You realized that tension was there and you want to address it before it builds too strong.

I would reverse the order of how you approach him. Start with the "Thanks for doing the courageous thing for both of us" part  That way, it's about what he did and what you think of him first. Can you just ask him, "How are you feeling about it?" And go from there with the conversation.

How do you think he will respond? What are you fears? What are your goals for the conversation?

[waitingwife]

Sure TH, I’ll start with the Thank you for the both of us part. It makes a lot of sense to ask him about his feelings which I NEVER do. My reason to never ask is fear. He has expected me in the past stand up to my family and say they’re wrong or they need to behave in a certain way that he perceives them to.
For example- he has said in the oast - when your mom visited us and made something special that only you loved for a meal - I felt violated and very bad. He blamed me to give him the cold shoulder and not support him and tell her to make something for him too. It doesn’t matter if she has made 4 things he loves in the last 4 days.
What do I say if/when he says your cousin was being passive aggressive and you didn’t do anything about it. Yestthe told me how dare your cousin live in our house and be so passive aggressive with me? I told him what my cousin is doing is not right but we unfortunately do not get to control his feeings/behaviour. Can you please say goodbye to them before you go to bed? He did say goodbye to them but it was very superficial and coz he was told to. I don’t hate my cousin for behaving the way he did coz it’s his problem and he must have his reasons for acting that way and it must serve him. Sometimes I feel my H wants me to hate people like he hates them for one behaviour. I prefer to see the whole picture- there are good & bad sides to all of us.
So what’s the best answer to - you didn’t do anything to sop your cousin?
Thank you TH for being there for me, I’m a ball of nerves since yesterday and it’s kept me from sleeping well.

[waitingwife]

Just my worst nightmare came true. There was a big blow up & misunderstanding with uBPDH. As soon as he came home from office, he started fuming coz cousin brother didn’t text/let him know that they have reached but texted me instead.
So h started saying that cousin’s family of yours is useless and we shouldnever entertain them next time. They’re so shameless that we hosted them & did so much but they’re thankless. And he used the f-word and my D7 was around. I’m very mama-bear when it comes to d7 and bad language. UBPDH grew up listening to bad language between his parents while I grew up seeing my parents being passive aggressive with each other. So i said let’s talk about this later, I’ve also been thinking about it but this is not a good time. He lost it more and said all I am trying to tell you are my feelings. So i calmly said again, can we please talk about it after we tucl D7? He started raising his voice so I had to say very loudly that if he doesn’t stop NOW, I will go upstairs and let him & D7 finish dinner by themselves. So he backed off and started being sarcastic. He said thank you for your support with a chuckle & pat on my back.
I feel horrible... .I was so helpless and wanting to say I’m on your side but I didn’t want D7 to be a part of any of this and we were all serving dinner so i couldnt even shoo her away for a bit. I know in my heart that I did the right thing by not discussing how horrible cousins are in front of D7 coz she is still in her innocent phase where she’s missing her cousin sisters and just asked me today evening if they can come stay longer with us

[waitingwife]

So finally this morning, I had a conversation with H and it went okay. He vented a LOT about how my cousin acted so passive aggressive and it’s not acceptable to him. He said I never want to entertain them or have anything to do with them.
I said that’s completely understandable and you will not be forced to be with them. I thanked him for everything that he did and said what they did was wrong. I also told him that I was anxious because being not good enough was beig triggered in me when I sensed thepassive aggression... It really takes me back to my childhood when my momwould turn passive aggressive when I stood up for myself or differed in my opinion from hers. So I said for me a person makes abad choice or committed abad behavior but Iw as struggling to find a balance to align with my perspective of theentire person is not categorized as a bad person for the behavior he/she does. I gave him examples of my mom, his mom and howI can’t be at peace by casting them out of our life. He said, I am working very hard and trying to be like you but I don’t feel good... .Next time if you want the cousins to come to our house, I will go out because I don’t want negativity or people that bring negativity to me. So I said that is fair enough and we’ll deal with it when we cross that bridge. Again I said what my cousin did was really not mature and disrespectful by not being thankful for what we did for them. But I said I’m glad we did everything we could and stuck to our plan. We did everything that was in our cotrol and I’m ready to move on from the things that we couldn’t control.
H mostly hates more people than he loves soit makes me wonder - how can I contiue to keep my relationships intact and nurture them while saving my marriae. We alsorew up in a Asian culture where saying no is equivalent to a crime so literally we grew up without boundaries. So this is all so hard

[Tattered Heart]

Sorry to hear the conversation started out rocky but I'm glad you guys got some resolution to things.

After you were able to talk did he feel like you listened and heard him? Do you think the conversation went well?

I can see how your family culture would make things difficult in saying no. Ultimately though, whether a cultural thing or just a family type response to saying no, it is your decision on what you will and will not allow in your life. Sometimes setting good Boundaries means saying no to people you care about--your H or your family.

When will your cousin or other family visit again?

Remember too that your H may change his mind just as quickly about your cousin. Once he is past the initial hurt he may be more than willing to let him stay with you again. He may not. I think your approach of "Let's cross that bridge when we get there" leaves it open instead of drawing a hard line in the sand about the future.

Maybe next time your cousin visits, you may be in a place where you feel comfortable having a conversation up front with him about transportation OR if your cousin starts to get passive aggressive you may even be able to confront that too.

------------------
Looking back at the conversation that caused your H to get angry last night, what do you think went wrong?

How could you have tried to let him know he was important while at the same time asking him to wait until later?

[waitingwife]

TH, yeah I feel like te culture makes it thatbmuch harder to see the grey areas for us. My cousin is very fixed in his views and a very selfish person... .I have known that but we have good shared childhood memories so I give as much as I can handle and H is very different in that way. I have a feelibg that the cuz may not visit us again, he has similar ossues with interpersonal relationships. So the silver lining in our conversation was I didn’t expect H to be like me but I felt like he wanted me to hate my cousin to the extent he is right now. That’s why I told him that what coz did was wrong so I validated him there but that doesn’t make him an entirely bad person just like our respective FOO folks. They were tough guests to have is my conclusion.
I was outside coz I really needed air and to do something. So I met a friend and did groceries, etc and got back home. He seems a little passive aggressive but we’re talking... .
About last night, I could have said I know you have a lot to say but can it please wait until after we tuck D7? I felt like I said that to him and he went on . So today he said thank you for stopping me from using bad language in front of D7 and please continue to do so in the future. Can you suggest anybother amicable way of handling this? He seems to be closed off to another perspective and I can see he is in a very troubled place right now. But that’s his choice and all I can do is be there for him. Most of our friends & family are asian and this will be a constant battle for us. I’’ve also written to ny therapist to make an appointment coz I want to be able to continue loving H and all the other  people in my life.
You’re also right that H must be so upset now that later he may change his mind. But this happens almost everytime wehave visitors/relatives over.

[Radcliff]

Hello waitingwife, I  have to say in reading through this thread it feels to me like you are doing a great job!  You are considering your husband's FOO, your FOO, his feelings, and your needs and goals.  When he faulted you for not controlling your cousin, your answer that you did not agree with what they did validates him, and the second part of your answer that you can't control what they do, is the truth, and a healthy perspective.

About the situation with D7 you were certainly in a tough spot with dinner on the table and unable to subtly move her to a different spot.  But she did see you stand up for the use of respectful language in the house, and that is valuable for her to see.  Your most recent post suggested perhaps validating him more when you asked him to stop using the swear words.  That sound like a great idea.  I am very sensitive to my wife's tone of voice, and she to mine.  For words to calm us down, the tone has to be just right.  It might take a little practice to have mama bear wait just a moment and get the tone of voice just right for the validation.  Your husband is going to have to step up, too, and respond appropriately.  It's great that he appreciates what you did!  Perhaps in a calm time you can promise to acknowledge his feelings next time and ask that he take that as a cue to calm down in front of D7. 

Another strategy if things are going far south in front of D7 is to remove both yourself and your husband from the  room.  This can work so that your husband feels like you're being attentive to his needs, so he doesn't get more upset.  You might say something like, "Honey, I can see you're upset, let's talk about this in our bedroom so D7 can eat her dinner," with a warm half smile and a supportive tone.  Then a kind word and an apology to D7.  It can be handy to have a few strategies at hand and use whatever works for a particular situation.  Leaving D7 at dinner is certainly not a "Plan A."  Perhaps separating your husband and yourself from D7 is more of a "Plan A" for other situations.

Again, I'm impressed with how you and your husband are doing.  It is hard work, and there will always be setbacks.  But you are being so thoughtful and he is willing to talk with you and work with you -- both of those things are huge assets.

WW

[waitingwife]

Thank you WW for the kind words. I was just SOO out of my comfort zone doing this all by myself and was melting inside myself. Again due to my FOO issues, I have a hard time not self-doubting myself and needing that external validation at such times.
I’m slowly feeling that weight lift off a bit even though H doesn’t seem to be in a great place but he has been through a lot and felt violated so it’ll take him time to come back to center. Maybe I could do more to be supportive when he was venting and the strategies suggested are great, I’m going to actually write it down in my journal to go-to for the next time this happens.
Thanks and hugs to this family here coz these are very difficult things I can’t talk with friends coz they know h and I’d hate to put in a seed of bias in their minds.

[Radcliff]

That's what we're here for.  We all need reassurance, and I think it's easier to reassure others, even when we need a lot of reassurance in our own lives.  So we all stick together here and help each other out, and it works!

WW

[waitingwife]

Sorry to hear the conversation started out rocky but I'm glad you guys got some resolution to things.

After you were able to talk did he feel like you listened and heard him? Do you think the conversation went well?

I can see how your family culture would make things difficult in saying no. Ultimately though, whether a cultural thing or just a family type response to saying no, it is your decision on what you will and will not allow in your life. Sometimes setting good Boundaries means saying no to people you care about--your H or your family.

When will your cousin or other family visit again?

Remember too that your H may change his mind just as quickly about your cousin. Once he is past the initial hurt he may be more than willing to let him stay with you again. He may not. I think your approach of "Let's cross that bridge when we get there" leaves it open instead of drawing a hard line in the sand about the future.

Maybe next time your cousin visits, you may be in a place where you feel comfortable having a conversation up front with him about transportation OR if your cousin starts to get passive aggressive you may even be able to confront that too.

------------------
Looking back at the conversation that caused your H to get angry last night, what do you think went wrong?

How could you have tried to let him know he was important while at the same time asking him to wait until later?

So as the day progressed, I kept feeling better(I also recieved some exciting news from work that I was waiting for) so that felt like the air under my wings... .Going out to meet a friend, reflecting objectively with you all here & the work news really motivated me to come back to center. I felt a big shift... .like a space opened up & I was able to breathe comfortably within our relationship coz I was able to truly understand H’s feelings even if I didn’t fully agree with it... .The thought that liberated me from being passive aggressive was that casting out my cousin “for now” serves H and that’s how he copes with his hurt/yucky feelings... .and I cope by forgiving & letting go because we’re both at different places in our respective tberapy. He doesn’t have to be my replica for me to love & live with him as long as he’s respectful. Having that conversation “beforehand “ about how can we be gracious hosts without lending our car helped H really do some awesome things for my cousins.
H could easily sense the big shift in me & how I changed my perspective & he returned back to his Centered self by the end of the day. I also said to him that this has been my goal for years & today I felt like we had a BIG breakthrough by consciously sharing our feelings without judgement and we finally could stop our respective familial pattern for the first time in so many years. We have pushed such differences under the rug like a 100 times before & felt short-changed but for once I can say I’m proud of our hard & teamwork. I also asked him whether he felt supported and if there’s anything else I could have done to make him feel more supported? We were in bed talking so he humorously said - how about you support me & let me sleep

[Radcliff]

When you and your spouse make progress together and feel like a team -- that's the best! 

Side note, you mentioned your husband being humorous when lying beside you in bed.  I heard a talk by a psychologist one time (our preschool had monthly parent seminars) who said that women feel best about communication when they are face-to-face and guys feel best when they are side-by-side (something about women liking to see the face and body language and guys liking to feel like they were working side-by-side in a team).  That definitely rang true for me -- the moments I feel best are working next to my wife doing dishes, lying or sitting next to each other in bed, etc.  She seems to respond best when I sit on the couch and face her straight on.  I wonder if side-by-side works best for your husband or any other guys out there?

WW

[waitingwife]

When you and your spouse make progress together and feel like a team -- that's the best! 

Side note, you mentioned your husband being humorous when lying beside you in bed.  I heard a talk by a psychologist one time (our preschool had monthly parent seminars) who said that women feel best about communication when they are face-to-face and guys feel best when they are side-by-side (something about women liking to see the face and body language and guys liking to feel like they were working side-by-side in a team).  That definitely rang true for me -- the moments I feel best are working next to my wife doing dishes, lying or sitting next to each other in bed, etc.  She seems to respond best when I sit on the couch and face her straight on.  I wonder if side-by-side works best for your husband or any other guys out there?

WW

It’s so bizarre now that you mention the side by side face to face. When I wanted to tell him all that, I turned on the light and went in f2f so we could look eye to eye coz I felt so much in partnership & equal instead of the one up & other down that we normally feel. After reading codependent no more, I’m trying hard to overcome my fear or looking eye to eye while expressing myself especially in high conflict or difference of opinion kinda situations.
I can state this here due to the anonymity that we had the most amzing intimate session after 4-6 months. UBPDH has been on zoloft and in therapy (one in few weeks now) for the last 6 months and had expressed to me that he has a hard time performing coz he’s processing a lot of emotional stuff & getting used to new meds so I was very understanding & patient. I have been through a similar surgery phase in therapy questioning my childhood, foo and that can make other things less important for a while. But that night I feel he felt an emotional connection to me especially even if we had different views and he could perform without any anxiety & in fact with much spontaneity like we’ve wanted.
Thanks again for being my family here

[Tattered Heart]

That space creates a great feeling. It really does seem like you are able to breathe easier. Congratulations. I hope this experience has helped you see ways to work together through the next situation. 

[waitingwife]

That space creates a great feeling. It really does seem like you are able to breathe easier. Congratulations. I hope this experience has helped you see ways to work together through the next situation. 

Sure, the best step was understanding that H is startibg to live in the past or future before the guests arrived when he was ramping up in his thought of they “should” rent a car which was out of our control hence it was a “judgement”. At that point I recognized how this could pose a problem area and had a talk with H about how we can be gracious hosts? I have to admit I was VERY nervous to open a can of shame & guilt for him from his past and it took me 2 days and reflecting with you all here as to how to approach this conversation with him and that was the wisest thing coz we could come up with a plan and H lloves plans or structure so that really worked for him.
I also had emailed my cousin’s wife coz I have a good friendship with her. Gave her my true perspective of its upto the guys if they want to address this but H had his reasons to have said No on that morning and cousin must have his reasons to be upset/angry/hurt(it was actually passive aggressive but I didn’t use that word). So I said to her, I have chosen to identify both the guys with all the good, humor and affection they have rather than that one moment. She said all of this is okay but the night before when she was telling me that my brother’s family was forcing them to stay longer and forcing them to take their car, she told them she has a relationship with us wherein she can tell us to give them a ride or borrow our car. So she expected me at that time of mine & her conversation to tell her that my H is quirky about lending cars to anybody. So I said to her that we were completely okay to drive you all around and my H even did the previous day but the morning of 1st was just not a good time when so much action was going on at home with 7 kids(cousin’s, mine, brother’s), H wanted to be there so he can help me and he did not want to drive out first thing after waking up coz we had not even finished breakfast, etc. And I said to her shouldn’t a person be accepting of getting a NO when he/she makes a request? She continued to say but if you had dropped a hint or said something that previous day to her, this could have been avoided. She said her H(my cousin) felt very bad for having asked and he said that he shouldn’t have asked for our car at all in the first place. I told her that it wasn’t upto her or me to smoothe this situation for the men, it was upto them to talk this through and whether they address it or not, that’s also upto them. At this moment they seem to hate each other and both of them have a history of broken relationships quite a lot but that’s what serves them.
So I was glad that I gave her my view/perspective coz she means a lot to me and we have a good friendship/bond. In my email at the end I wrote to her as my final thought, that what happened cannot be changed but I hope you let the “happy & fun” times we shared have a stronger hold in your memory. I love you and loved spending every moment with all 4 of you.