Apology Not Good Enough

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Long story short: I lied about going on porn. For months. I told her I wasn't using it, and I was. I genuinely thought I was done with it when we first started our relationship, and it unexpectedly crept back in.

The more stress and drama in the relationship, the more I'd resort to porn. Now there's another possibility: that I would just continue to use porn occasionally in any relationship. That I don't see anything wrong with having "me time" and I don't want to feel strangleholded, and like I'm committing a sin for masturbating. She's even gone so far as to ask me what I imagined when I masturbated and then accused me of thinking of other girls and said she couldn't tolerate being with someone who would disrespect her so much that they would think of other women when they masturbated. And that she only ever thinks of me, and she expects me to only think of her in return.

I apologized for lying. I said it was wrong. And I asked if she would forgive me for it. That unleashed a tirade of her accusing me of not feeling I actually did anything wrong, and that I also needed to apologize for disrespecting her, and ask for forgiveness for that too.

I go silent, because I don't know what to make of it. I feel resentful. But then I know that anything I say that is short of groveling and begging will just unleash another tirade. The consequence is that by going silent, she accuses me of abusing her, and giving her the silent treatment. She says I'm punishing her for expressing her feelings. And then uses that to further accuse me of being a sociopath/narcissist/inhuman etc., and "proof" that I don't care about her, that I abandoned her, that I "treat her like ___," and so on.

And so I stay silent. It doesn't help that this is my first relationship, and I also have conflicted feelings about porn. I don't know if I myself think it's good or bad, or neutral. I can understand why someone would be upset with another person for using porn while in a relationship. Or masturbating to fantasies of someone else.

At the same time, I feel horribly invaded, violated, disrespected, and beaten down. I've told her that, and the only response is that SHE is the one who is all of the above, and that it's all my fault. If I try to mention my feelings, then it turns into "You always make everything about you" and "My feelings never matter to you. I'm never allowed to express myself."

A huge fear for me is what if I really am wrong? Can someone tell me if I'm crazy or not? I don't feel she's unreasonable in feeling hurt, but I feel that her demanding me to FEEL bad, and that an apology isn't enough... .makes me feel like I'm losing my mind. My self-identity is pretty shaky to begin with and I am only more confused now, wondering if all these things she's saying about me are actually true.

Does anyone know what is really going on here? Is it simpler than I think it is?

[crunchtime]

Long story short: I lied about going on porn. For months. I told her I wasn't using it, and I was. I genuinely thought I was done with it when we first started our relationship, and it unexpectedly crept back in.

The more stress and drama in the relationship, the more I'd resort to porn. Now there's another possibility: that I would just continue to use porn occasionally in any relationship. That I don't see anything wrong with having "me time" and I don't want to feel strangleholded, and like I'm committing a sin for masturbating. She's even gone so far as to ask me what I imagined when I masturbated and then accused me of thinking of other girls and said she couldn't tolerate being with someone who would disrespect her so much that they would think of other women when they masturbated. And that she only ever thinks of me, and she expects me to only think of her in return.

I apologized for lying. I said it was wrong. And I asked if she would forgive me for it. That unleashed a tirade of her accusing me of not feeling I actually did anything wrong, and that I also needed to apologize for disrespecting her, and ask for forgiveness for that too.

I go silent, because I don't know what to make of it. I feel resentful. But then I know that anything I say that is short of groveling and begging will just unleash another tirade. The consequence is that by going silent, she accuses me of abusing her, and giving her the silent treatment. She says I'm punishing her for expressing her feelings. And then uses that to further accuse me of being a sociopath/narcissist/inhuman etc., and "proof" that I don't care about her, that I abandoned her, that I "treat her like ___," and so on.

And so I stay silent. It doesn't help that this is my first relationship, and I also have conflicted feelings about porn. I don't know if I myself think it's good or bad, or neutral. I can understand why someone would be upset with another person for using porn while in a relationship. Or masturbating to fantasies of someone else.

At the same time, I feel horribly invaded, violated, disrespected, and beaten down. I've told her that, and the only response is that SHE is the one who is all of the above, and that it's all my fault. If I try to mention my feelings, then it turns into "You always make everything about you" and "My feelings never matter to you. I'm never allowed to express myself."

A huge fear for me is what if I really am wrong? Can someone tell me if I'm crazy or not? I don't feel she's unreasonable in feeling hurt, but I feel that her demanding me to FEEL bad, and that an apology isn't enough... .makes me feel like I'm losing my mind. My self-identity is pretty shaky to begin with and I am only more confused now, wondering if all these things she's saying about me are actually true.

Does anyone know what is really going on here? Is it simpler than I think it is?

[formflier]

When you apologized and asked for forgiveness did she accept or reject your apology?

The she grant or deny forgiveness?

After that info... .I should be able to guide you better.


As far as ST:  "Hey babe... I'm sure you would agree that words can hurt.  I need some space to think things through.  It would mean a lot to me for you to give me some peace and quiet to think."

Say it in a friendly manner.

Did she catch you online?  What happened?  Please consider her point of view... .not to agree with it... .but to understand it.  How would you feel if you tried to be a "beast of a man" one evening and she whipped out pictures of men with bigger... .you know... .than you have... .more muscles... .bigger and furrier mustaches... .etc etc and stared lovingly at them for a minute or two while you waited?

Said another way... .while you are sorting things out about porn... .can you make sure... .I mean sure... .that she doesn't "bump into it" or get confronted by porn?  That's not going to go well... .

FF

[Cat Familiar]

I'll fill you in on some of the typical female attitudes toward porn. For one, it's made by men, for men--generally. And what turns men on is often rather different than what turns women on. In the old days, porn actually had a storyline and people played a role before stripping off their clothes.

How do I know this? Well, my ex-husband and I were houseguests, visiting an old friend of his in San Francisco. The next day, unbeknownst to us, his friend's girlfriend had hired out their very lavishly furnished house with an incredible view--to a porn company for a film shoot. So as I'm eating breakfast in the dining room, the cameraman is setting up and the director is discussing the "plot" with the "actors". During the filming, the director is whispering directions to the "actors" and it's all very male-oriented as to how the woman is supposed to behave and the director actually got angry when she seemed to be enjoying herself too much and not paying as much attention to her "co-star".

Anyway, other than that day, I haven't seen much porn. From what I hear the newer stuff cuts out all the extraneous talking and gets right down to the action. Apparently this is preferable to male viewers, while women might prefer having a storyline which explains why these people are taking off their clothes.

I think for women, one of the biggest problems with porn is that the actresses usually have beautiful bodies, perfect hair and makeup and women feel "less than" in comparison if their man is watching that.

I don't have a moralistic judgment about porn, other than some people use it like an addiction. That doesn't seem healthy. Another possible problem is unrealistic expectations from a real life relationship. Bodies aren't always beautiful. Sometimes bodies don't work quite right. And then there are emotions connected to sexuality, rather than just pure sex. And probably for women a big objection might be that it takes a while sometimes to get turned on and I would bet that you never see that in porn. 

[formflier]

And you learn something new everyday... .never would have thought Cat Familiar was part of filming an adult film... .

Yeah... couldn't stay quiet... .

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Something I learned is that watching porn is not compatible with eating. 

Also I was very hesitant to sit on that couch again. 

[formflier]

   

Nice work...

FF

[Lalathegreat]

Hahahaha Cat... .

I can speak a little bit from personal experience on this one for what it’s worth. In theory I do not object to masterbation or pornography. I make no moral judgements if it is kept in context.

But it can complicate a relationship. My ex husband (not BPD) had a porn addiction. I only found this out after our sex life had dwindled down to nothing and I accidentally walked in on him. And you bet your bottom dollar that got in my head. I didn’t want to make him feel bad so I tried initially to keep my insecurities to myself. But I turned it inward. I kicked up my training. I started dieting.  Not because I “needed” to, but because I was afraid that he no longer wanted me because I wasn’t “as good” as his porn women somehow. It was a really hard  time. Eventually we were able to have a conversation that helped me understand what he was struggling with, and where I was able to express how much it hurt me. In the end we worked hard and that issue was mostly overcome. It was not why my marriage ultimately ended.

Is she being completely rational about this? No. Is her high emotionality being triggered? Absolutely. Should you be feeling shame and made to suffer? Absolutely not.

But I can relate to the insecurity that is at the root of her current behaviors.

I am probably NOT the one to give advice on how to handle the discussions that you are probably facing with your BPD. But I guess I would encourage you as much as possible to make sure she knows you love HER. That you’re attracted to HER. That she is good enough. Because I know for myself that once I had that reassurance, I felt infinitely better.

Good luck!

[formflier]

I love hijacking threads!   


I just don't get it... .how on earth can a guy put himself in a situation where he is going to get "caught" (I often wonder if it's purposeful) looking at a computer and... .you know... .

Everybody put on your adult caps...

Seriously... like... .that has never occurred to me to do that while my wife was home.  Tons of times I've walked out and either given a cave man look... .or a wink... or... whatever... .if there is a "need".

I'm also not going to suggest that I've never used porn.  Hello... .Navy deployments... .wife on other side of the world (literally).

Then... there is the reality in my r/s... my wife sent me porn.  I flipped out...

Sigh... .

What a world we live in

FF

[Lalathegreat]

Haha FF... .in my ex husband’s case, I had left for work and needed to turn around halfway there to retrieve something I’d forgotten that I could not be without that day. So he definitely was not expecting that he would be caught anymore than I was anticipating what I walked into.

Indeed, what a world.

[Fian]

A huge fear for me is what if I really am wrong?

Right and wrong are a difficult thing to answer on this board as there no agreed upon authority to answer the question.  However, from a Christian point of view, Mathew 5:27-28 says,
You have heard that it was said, "You shall not commit adultery." But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

[Enabler]

Does that mean that most men (probably adults in general) commit biblical adultery about 10x a day?

The average man will spend almost 43 minutes a day staring at 10 different women.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/5970007/Men-spend-a-year-staring-at-women.html

[formflier]

 
My understanding is the scripture is an illustration that our actions flow from our heart and start in our heart. 

The "heart" being the important thing in scripture that we are commanding to "protect" since all things "flow from it".

I do NOT believe that Jesus is equating or conflating actual adultery (sexual intercourse) with gazing lustfully at a woman in person.  Or sitting around "imagining" a woman that you have seen before or have created in your mind.

Don't infer me to say Jesus is suggesting lustful thoughts are NOT sinful... .

FF

[Cat Familiar]

A huge fear for me is what if I really am wrong? Can someone tell me if I'm crazy or not? I don't feel she's unreasonable in feeling hurt, but I feel that her demanding me to FEEL bad, and that an apology isn't enough... .makes me feel like I'm losing my mind. My self-identity is pretty shaky to begin with and I am only more confused now, wondering if all these things she's saying about me are actually true.

Does anyone know what is really going on here? Is it simpler than I think it is?

The discussion got a little sidetracked, sorry. To answer your questions:
No, you're not crazy. These are some pretty complicated feelings for any relationship, particularly more-so for a person with BPD. Yes, she seems to want you to feel bad--also not an unusual component of a BPD relationship. And she's probably not going to give an inch on this topic.

People with BPD have so much internal shame and sometimes they feel better if they can induce shame in their partners so they don't feel so alone in this.

In my opinion, you have nothing to apologize for, other than lying. I don't think there's any harm in watching porn and pleasuring yourself, especially when things aren't going well in your relationship. That said, it shouldn't become an excuse for not working things out in real life.

You and everyone else needs private time. All you can do is offer an apology, which you've done. If the topic comes up again, you can say that you're with her because you find her attractive and you want to be in a relationship with her. Do not tell her any more information about anything that has to do with watching porn. That way you don't have to lie to her. It's none of her business.

We humans are visually attracted to more people than just our significant others. That's just biology. We do have the choice of acting upon it or not. As long as you're not seeking out other women to have sex with, I really don't think there's anything you've done wrong.

[crunchtime]

I have never been caught. I have never gone on porn when I was with her or in the same house as her. I would never do that.

She stole my phone and went through everything and found porn I had looked up online. That was months ago. And also, I've simply admitted it, because she'll grill me about it relentlessly.

"What do you think about when you masturbate?"

":)o you look at porn? Have you looked at porn in the past six months? Have you looked at pictures of naked women?"

She won't take "no" for an answer and lying was destroying my soul, so I just started telling her that yes, I do go on porn. It was killing me to lie constantly and I have prided myself on not lying about anything. That's changed a lot in this relationship, which is my fault. But I do have deep rooted resentment now for feeling like I've been put into a position for the first time in my life where I felt it was necessary to lie at all. I do not feel it's fair to put the blame 100% on me for lying, when her extreme overreactions to me telling the truth have worn away at me so much. It's not like I'm gaining anything out of lying. My mistake was trying to avoid conflict and being passive, not in being manipulative and lying for my own benefit, which is what she thinks I've been doing. For some reason. Someone please tell me what f***ing trophy I won, because I don't see any.

Maybe I'm a freak, but if I found her looking longingly at guys more well endowed than I am, or with bigger muscles, or more facial hair, or whatever, I wouldn't care. I would not trade any part of my body in for anything else. And I'm in currently in the worst shape of my life. Maybe I am a narcissist but sometimes when I've watched porn I just think "thank God I'm me." I don't WANT to be another guy or look different or have different whatever. I am me. And I'm happy about that. How messed up would it be to be having sex and wishing I looked different or had different this or that?

I am 100% there in sex. This is my body and she gets all of it. She doesn't share that security.

I don't feel threatened by other guys, whether it's pixels on a screen or guys in real life.

However, I guess that confidence doesn't translate completely because if it did, I would be out getting other girls and not even dealing with this nonsense. Yet here I am. But I do not share her insecurity about any of that stuff at all.

She did not accept the apology, by the way. She said it wasn't enough and that it didn't matter because I didn't *feel* bad.

Anyway, hopefully more soon. I'm actually dealing with a crisis situation with her right now, again at the wee hours of the morning when I should be sleeping. Not worth sacrificing my health for. Locking my doors and bracing myself to ignore her when she comes knocking at the door.

Just another example of her being inconsiderate. All the things she accuses me of. And yet something as basic as my right to privacy is completely disrespected.

I still don't know how I feel about porn, really. I would much rather have sex with real women. Any day of the week. But in a relationship like this where my sexuality feels like it's being scrutinized and controlled and categorized it makes it awfully hard to want to have sex regularly.

Porn is just a release. It isn't even in the same realm as sex to me. I've explained that to no avail. And it doesn't seem to have occurred to her either that when she's being more reasonable and isn't trying to piledrive me into the ground with guilt and shame, I'm much more interested in sex.

I'm just pissed because this is my first girlfriend, and I can only imagine what it would be like to be with someone more stable. Like maybe being interested in sex all the time, and not wanting to avoid it because of emotional outbursts, insults, shaming and guilt tripping, etc.?

Thanks for the replies so far, guys. I appreciate it. Sorry to be so random and all over the place but it's late and I'm not thinking straight. Hopefully some of the stuff I wrote here clarified the situation a little bit.

Probably not  

[formflier]

When anyone (pwBPD or not) grills you and demands an answer, you don't have to lie.

"I'm not going to discuss this question further... " is not a lie.  You are stating your truth.  They have no "right" to know.

This applies to "porn" or "any subject".  If they won't leave you alone, use boundaries.

Eventually they will get the message. 


Said another way, just because I have a sexual relationship with someone, doesn't "mean" that they have a "right" to know every thought I have ever had or will have about a sexual matter.

Thoughts?

FF

[Cat Familiar]

To respond to more of the issues you've brought up:

No, you don't come across as a narcissist. You appear to have a good self image and are content with who you are.  

I totally understand why you lied in the first place. You knew how she would react and you were correct. Like formflier says, you don't need to discuss this with her. None of her business.

This is something that pwBPD don't understand. They often feel entitled to run over our boundaries about our selves, our thoughts, our feelings. All you can do is say, "I'm not going to talk about this" and repeat as necessary. Undoubtedly it will infuriate her, but if you don't give an inch, it will let her know that you have a right to your privacy and that will help you with future issues.

I assume you're young, since this is your first girlfriend. However you write with a lot of maturity. Please carefully consider that this is how it is now with her, how do you imagine the future might be? If you become more committed to her? If you marry and or have children with her? Is this a person you want to spend your life with?

So many of us here got involved with partners with BPD because in the beginning they were charming, the sex was incredibly good, and then BOOM, we were faced with a shrieking crazy person out of the blue.

There are lots of healthy women out there. If you haven't met one yet, please consider doing a bit of counseling and find out what keeps you from finding a woman who would really appreciate a thoughtful intelligent fellow like you.

[crunchtime]

"Said another way, just because I have a sexual relationship with someone, doesn't "mean" that they have a "right" to know every thought I have ever had or will have about a sexual matter."

Agreed. Also agreed that people with BPD don't understand things like this and think it's their right to have access to and inject themselves into every single part of your life.

"I assume you're young, since this is your first girlfriend. However you write with a lot of maturity. Please carefully consider that this is how it is now with her, how do you imagine the future might be? If you become more committed to her? If you marry and or have children with her? Is this a person you want to spend your life with?"

I'm almost 30, but before this, all I had was a small handful of one night stands. The future for me was looking pretty bleak. With this girl, I thought it was pretty clear I was just trying to dip my d*** in the water (excuse the metaphor but I couldn't resist... .so much for being mature I guess!), but I ended up getting shoved into the deep end. Part of the "deep end" is that for someone like me, with a history of low self-esteem and loneliness directly pertaining to sex, having a girl be so into me sexually is intoxicating. It's something I felt I was missing for a long time and thinking about giving it up is extremely difficult for me.

I think she knows that, even if only subconsciously. I used to think it was pathological, me wanting validation and all that, but now I realize it's normal. I felt like I was on cloud 9 after the few one night stands I did have years ago. I can still remember them clearly. I thought I must be a narcissist or be riddled with self-esteem issues because I felt so good getting compliments during and after hookups, until I realized that that's NORMAL.

I was just so deprived of sex that I developed maybe a more sensitive appetite for these things. A greater appreciation for them, but also a greater fear of losing them, which is what I'm dealing with now. So while craving and enjoying sexual validation is normal, I think it's exaggerated for me due to the deprivation I went through, and the current fear of loss and experiencing that deprivation again.

I think maybe that's leading me to have porous boundaries, and concede on many things that healthier people wouldn't. 

After all, it is me who is choosing to stay in this relationship, and the hardest question for me to answer isn't what's wrong with her, but why am I choosing to stay in it?

What is my deal? Why am I with someone that I'm having these issues with? Why am I putting up with it? That is the really hard part.

I really, REALLY need to remind myself that I don't have to lie. "I'm not going to discuss this further." Just have to stand my ground with it.

This is kind of like a trial by fire for people like me who are not naturally assertive. Because BPD's will have ZERO respect for your basic assertive rights. I've had enough issues recognizing my own assertive rights, and it's sure as hell a test of them every day. I've learned that I'm not comfortable in my own skin yet, at least not being assertive. Gonna take practice and commitment.

[BeagleGirl]

Long story short: I lied about going on porn. For months. I told her I wasn't using it, and I was. I genuinely thought I was done with it when we first started our relationship, and it unexpectedly crept back in.

The more stress and drama in the relationship, the more I'd resort to porn. Now there's another possibility: that I would just continue to use porn occasionally in any relationship. That I don't see anything wrong with having "me time" and I don't want to feel strangleholded, and like I'm committing a sin for masturbating. She's even gone so far as to ask me what I imagined when I masturbated and then accused me of thinking of other girls and said she couldn't tolerate being with someone who would disrespect her so much that they would think of other women when they masturbated. And that she only ever thinks of me, and she expects me to only think of her in return.

I apologized for lying. I said it was wrong. And I asked if she would forgive me for it. That unleashed a tirade of her accusing me of not feeling I actually did anything wrong, and that I also needed to apologize for disrespecting her, and ask for forgiveness for that too.

Crunchtime,
    I want to step away from the specific "offense" because that specific topic can get pretty loaded.  Here are my observations (drawn mostly from the sections I highlighted from your original post).

You lied to her.
She caught you in a lie.
You are sorry for deceiving her and have apologized for doing so.

That portion is good and, while it would have been better to not lie in the first place, a sincere apology and intention to no longer lie to her is what is called for in order to restore trust.  It may take some time for that trust to be fully restored (immediate trust is difficult for anyone who has been wronged, BPD or non), but there should be a statute of limitations on the distrust as long as you are faithful to your promise to not lie to her any longer.

Now we get to what I think it the real crux of the issue - There were two offenses.  The one you are addressing with your apology is the lying, but you also did something that causes her pain. 

I have to say that I am glad that you did not apologize for viewing porn if you are not committed to no longer doing so.  I also totally understand how your pwBPD feels an apology for lying about doing something that is hurtful is not enough to make her feel safe.  When I read your retelling of what happened, I hear "I lied about doing something I knew would hurt her.  I feel conflicted, but somewhat justified in doing that hurtful thing (I, in fact, believe that it's possibly her fault that I do the hurtful thing) and I feel persecuted because she expects more than just an apology for lying about hurting her.  She actually wants me to feel that it was wrong of me to do the hurtful thing."

I know BPD amplifies these scenarios 10,000x, but if I were advising a friend in a "healthy" relationship in a similar situation, I'd highlight the following:

You lied - not a good thing in any relationship.  You've taken a big step in apologizing for those lies and you can't continue to lie.

You are doing something that hurts her.  You have two options (you just eliminated the third by promising not to lie about it). 

1.  You can stop doing the thing that hurts her.  You don't have to decide whether the behavior is right or wrong in and of itself.  You just have to decide that it's wrong because it hurts her and value her feelings above your right to partake in that behavior.
2.  You can continue the behavior that hurts her, but do so openly and honestly.  You don't have to rub it in her face, but you do have to be honest that you are going to continue in this behavior.  That gives her the option of choosing whether she values the relationship enough to try to tolerate or get past the pain that behavior causes.

    You may not feel that the porn use/masturbation is disrespecting her as a woman/your partner.  I don't feel unbiased enough on this topic to argue that point with you.  What I do feel is disrespectful is resenting her for recognizing that you are not apologizing for a behavior that hurts her and are getting dangerously close to blaming her for "forcing" you to hurt her.  "The more stress and drama in the relationship, the more I'd resort to porn."

    I suggest you take a step back and decide whether this relationship is important enough to you to put aside your rights and desires in this area.  If it's not, be honest and face the consequences of that decision. 

BeagleGirl

[formflier]

 
When you asked for forgiveness... .did she say yes... or no?  Or in anyway address that specifically? 

From the story it seemed liked you asked and she let loose with a BPDish rant/talk?

 
Switching gears:   BG brings up some good points.  I would add that thinking "I was going to be done with porn (or anything else really) and "it crept back into the relationship" is giving porn the power and potentially casting yourself in the role of a victim with no choices.

I'm not saying this to beat you up, I'm saying this so you might reflect on other areas of your life, other relationships and see if you regularly take up "positions" on the drama triangle.

pwBPD seem to do this all the time and many of the "nons" that get involved with them like to do this as well.

persecutor, victim, rescuer 

https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle


Think about it.

FF

[Enabler]

I was just watching a film on TV and during a saucy bit I had a flash back to the early days of my marriage. We used to watch a lot of films, cuddled on the sofa or sitting at the standard ends predetermined by months of standard positioning... .anyway, every time there was a hint of nudity or rumpy my W would check to see if I’d got arroused by it. She would be angry with me if I had and that night, as far as she was concerned, any advances by me would solely be attributable to the film not any natural attraction to her... .to make things worse she would suggest watching open together, then do the same thing! I think she expected me to completely detach any human instincts and be some imascalated individual. I think she would rather me have been repulsed by every other living (and dead) female. I doubt anything has changed, she just doesn’t verbalise it.

[crunchtime]

  What I do feel is disrespectful is resenting her for recognizing that you are not apologizing for a behavior that hurts her and are getting dangerously close to blaming her for "forcing" you to hurt her.  "The more stress and drama in the relationship, the more I'd resort to porn."

    I suggest you take a step back and decide whether this relationship is important enough to you to put aside your rights and desires in this area.  If it's not, be honest and face the consequences of that decision. 

BeagleGirl

How is having a feeling disrespectful? If anything, this is what really leads to my resentment with her: the feeling that having my own, individual feelings is inherently disrespectful of her. Feelings including resentment. I don't see how feeling something can be disrespectful.

That is primarily what I'm wary of: any time I feel something, it's not OK. She takes it as a personal attack.

I think it's important to not confuse my going on porn with hurting her, either. Is that really the case? I think it's rather silly to think I was "hurting" her by going on porn in the privacy of my own home before bed, on occasion. She has even gone so far as to accuse me of disrespecting and hurting her by thinking of girls other than her when I masturbate -- without the use of porn.

She asked me point blank, ":)o you ever think of anyone but me when you masturbate?" I got quiet, and didn't know how to answer. I knew if I said "Yes" she'd lose her mind, so I just stayed silent. I didn't want to lie again. Then after a few minutes I get in response, "I can't believe I'm with someone who would dare to disrespect me so much that they would think of anyone else when they think about sex. I can't believe this is happening to me."

Where is the line drawn? Am I supposed to feel guilty for "hurting" her because I masturbated in the privacy of my own home, to fantasies that didn't include her? And the only way she finds out is because she grills me about it over and over until I tell her the truth she says she wants so badly?

I have never accused her of forcing me to go on porn, or forcing me to imagine having sex with other girls. But she has certainly attempted to violate my privacy to such a degree to where I am now confused about what is OK to have private in my life.

Tough question. I didn't even think of it as putting my rights and desires aside for the relationship. When you put it like that, it doesn't sound appealing at all. I am not a fan of the idea of compromising myself or who I am for someone else.

formflier:

She did not address my apology specifically. I asked her if she could forgive me for lying to her and hurting her, and her response was something like, "You don't even feel like you did anything wrong."

And to me, it's like... .well, of course I did. Lying to her and hurting her because of that lie was wrong. And I felt bad enough about that to apologize for it.

She didn't accept it or acknowledge it, just said "You don't even feel like you did anything wrong," even though I said I do feel I did something wrong by lying to her. Then she comes back with, "But you didn't feel it was wrong to do what you did (go on porn)."

And there is the moot point.

I don't want to be a victim. So I guess the only option is to find out what my guns are, and then stick to them.

At this point, I'm thinking I need to take a solid stance on porn. I was ambiguous about it long before she came into the picture, which complicates things (had tried to quit multiple, multiple times, and went between feeling OK with it and thinking it was morally wrong).

The reason I said it crept back in, is some part of me still thinks that porn might be an addiction. I don't have any conclusions about that yet and it doesn't help that all the studies about it are entirely anecdotal, and there is no hard scientific evidence proving that porn is an addiction like cocaine or heroin.

I would LOVE to have a clear view on porn myself, so I could be straight with her about it. I think one of the primary issues here is my own lack of resolution about it. Not being sure if I think it's right, or wrong, or neutral. She very decidedly thinks it's wrong, but she also feels like every stripper, pornstar, prostitute or attention whore on Instagram deserves to die in a fire, and hates them all with a passion, so her view is pretty decidedly biased.

Porn can be pretty polarizing. I've done the most I can for now: told her that I will probably be using it for the foreseeable future, in varying degrees. And that I see it solely as a stress relief, and that I don't think it has anything to do with our sex life. I don't know how I feel about it either way but I know I'm going to continue using it at least once in a while.

She has not broken up with me over that, so... .IMO, that's on her.

But I do agree I need to drop the victim card. I might have a hard time realizing I'm even playing it. Maybe part of that is all the reading I've done about porn being an addiction, and in that sense, truly feeling I am a victim of it. Which is counterproductive. It's been a vicious cycle for YEARS of me using it on and off, feeling horribly guilty about using it, trying not to care that I was using it, feeling good about using it, etc.

So I will definitely think about it. I would much rather take a stance and not be a victim. Even if I'm confused about how I really feel about porn, I would rather take the stance of "I don't think there's anything wrong with it, and I'm going to keep using it. If you're not OK with that, then you can leave, but I'm not going to change myself for you"... .

... .than to constantly feel so ambiguous about it. Most ironically of all, this whole conflict in this relationship over porn might be highlighting my own issues with porn (and my sexuality in general) more than anything else. Definitely something for me to think about.

Thanks for the replies, they are all very helpful.

[formflier]

You need to take a hard stance on PRIVACY.

Just because she can think of a question, doesn't mean you have to answer it.

Generally it's better to stay friendly and say  "Ohh... well... that's the first I've been asked that.  Let me give it some thought."

or

"I can't imagine me thinking an answer through to that question is healthy for us, let alone actually answering it... "

or just say

"I'm not going to discuss that with you... "

If you can shut down the questions with minimal "hard line" that is better... .but the critical thing is YOU get off the witness stand.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Frankly, I don't see anything wrong with watching porn if you don't do it as a substitute for intimacy IRL. And I still think it's OK for people who can't have intimacy with a loved one, such as those on military deployments.

That said, there is definitely an element of unseemliness in the creation of porn and the people acting it out can certainly be subject to abuse in the workplace. However, doing that is their choice and it might be a better choice in their mind than working at a fast food place or being unemployed.

To my way of thinking, your girlfriend has absolutely no business asking you those questions. I certainly have never only fantasized about my husband. LETS GET REAL! Why would you fantasize about something that's attainable? That's a pretty crummy waste of a fantasy. You can do it with your SO, rather than fantasize about it. Fantasies are about that which will never (or would be unlikely to) happen.

It seems utterly absurd that you could have "hurt" her masturbating in your own place. That's ridiculous, but that's BPD. And if she's drawing a line in the sand about this, get ready for other disagreements!

[formflier]

Back to the reason I asked what she said when you asked for forgiveness.

Notice she didn't say yes or no.  "That's BPD for you... ."  She's not going to take a stand.  And if she does, she will likely serve the right to "unforgive" you as well (yes... .my wife has used that term... )

If she ever comes up with a "porn talk" again... .I would state simply... ."It's been discussed, I can't imagine it would benefit our relationship to discuss it further... "

FF

[BasementDweller]

I have been seriously agonizing over the thought of contributing to this thread, mainly because I have some pretty strong thoughts on the topic, and I am not sure me interjecting my .02 is going to help any. But here goes:

Without making this about me, or my opinions, I'm going to tread lightly and say that we all have our own boundaries, limits, and tolerances on what we can and cannot accept in a relationship, or what we do or do not think constitutes loyalty, faithfulness, etc.

Some people are uncomfortable with their partner looking at porn or admiring other people in a sexual way. Some people are comfortable going so far as having threesomes, open relationships, or polyamory.

There is a whole HUGE gamut of relationship boundaries, preferences, behaviors, and allowances that people have, and none of them are wrong, weird, or "just because the person is crazy". (Aside, of course, from criminal or malicious abuses, and I'm sure that goes without saying.)

Nor is having standards about the way you wish to be treated within your own relationship a sign of insecurity. You have every right to want what you want, you have a right to choose your own definition of respect, and you have a right to ask for it if you feel you aren't getting it, and you have a right to walk away if the other person cannot or will not provide it.

We all have a right to choose what kind of relationship we want to be in and what we expect from our partners. Our partners have a right to say "I cannot do what you ask" or "I choose not to"... .And we have a right to leave if that isn't good enough for us.

The problem here is that the OP watches pornography, and yes, lies about it. I am not calling him out, but he said as much, so that is a real component of his dilemma right now. His partner is not comfortable with this, and it really doesn't matter if any of us think that looking at other people in a sexual way or getting off on porn is "normal" or "healthy" or "acceptable". It matters what his partner thinks if he is to address this issue between the two of them. It is not fair to blame her BPD for having the feelings she does on the matter, BTW. A LOT of people, men AND women have reasons why this topic might be uncomfortable for them, and it has nothing to do with insecurity or mental illness. In fact - it's quite the opposite. Healthy people with good self-esteem will tell you that they have very well-defined ideas about what they feel is respectful behavior, and they will stick to those guns and accept nothing less in the way they are treated by others.

If you were to ask a person with demisexual tendencies to explain how they feel on this topic, they could easily explain to you why they cannot wrap their head around certain behaviors that so many deem "normal" such as having lustful thoughts about strangers, especially when in a relationship with someone else.

www.wiki.asexuality.org/Demisexual

This is one small example of the huge spectrum of sexual behaviors within humans, but clearly a person who falls under this category would have a hard time having a comfortable relationship with a person who has a strong tendency toward primary sexual attraction to random strangers. Yet there is absolutely nothing wrong with only being attracted to the one you are bonded with. And you know what? It's not that uncommon. If you are one of these people, it might be very hard to understand why your partner doesn't feel the same, or to be ok with how they behave in a relationship if their views are vastly different from your own. Neither party is wrong, and both have the right to be who they are.

BUT - two such people may not have the ability to sucessfully relate to each other without some hard work and possibly some changes. This goes for any two people with different views, - not just confined to those with certain sexual preferences or tendencies.

If the OP's partner is uncomfortable with him watching porn and wants him to only have eyes for her, she has a right to want that, and yes, it DOES exist. I know countless people in happy relationships who will say the moment he/she knew the other was "the one" is when literally nobody else was attractive. Nobody could hold a candle to their partner. They stopped "window shopping" when they met the one they fell head over heels with, and had no trouble focusing on them - in fact it was a relief to not have to worry about dating, flirting, etc anymore... .Many were happy to not have to watch porn anymore, orfantasize about randoms on public transit (which they were utterly bored with) and to actually have a REAL sex partner! And genuine love. I hear this more from men than women. To each their own, right?

OP, you know where your partner stands on this, and you know that it is important to her. You know her requirements, and what she needs to feel her relationship with you is trustworthy. You have a few choices. You can work on this and decide to give up the thing that is hurting her, and put her before this other thing. You can perhaps ask yourself if you really want to be monogamous, and if you are willing to give your partner what she needs in order to trust that you are. (Keeping in mind, your perception of "monogamy" might be different from hers.)

You have a right to refuse to alter the behavior as well. You have a right to say that you want to look at others outside the relationship, and you will then have to accept the fact that it will hurt her, and her feelings are valid. This may cause further turmoil. She may decide she wants to be with someone who can give her this sense of security. You may decide you want to be with someone that is comfortable with your indulgences, or fulfills you enough to where you're happy to indulge in only HER (visually or otherwise) and have that be enough for you. You are both allowed to want what you want, and decide what you can and can't take, and can and can't accept. It doesn't matter how liberal or conservative any of us on this board are in our own expectations of our partners or our relationships... .that won't change the dynamic in your house.

This is someting you have to consider carefully, OP. In my experiences, when there is an imbalance in what each partner expects of the other, it can be a steep uphill climb, and either compromise, or separation has to occur, eventually. Staying at an indefinite impasse isn't ideal, and may end in disaster. I wish you both the best of luck.

[formflier]

  It is not fair to blame her BPD for having the feelings she does on the matter, BTW. 

She has the feelings she has.  Her BPDish behavior likely influences how she expresses those feelings and when and how strongly she feels them.

BPD also tends to influence people to use projection to hold others accountable for their own feelings.

It is likely OPs partner felt insecure about her relationships before meeting the OP and before finding out about porn and lies.  Those likely became a convenient excuse to offload uncomfortable feelings.

Please don't hear me promoting or condemning porn use or untruthfulness.  That is a completely separate matter from the effects of BPD on a relationship.

Good post... good discussion, keep it up. 

FF

[BasementDweller]

I hear you FF. And I know that if she is emotionally dysregulated, it will be MUCH harder for her to express her feelings in a constructive way. That's a whole other level of complexity that gets added in - to an already complex situation.

Any couple can have a fundamental disagreement about what is appropriate or respectful behavior within their relationship - but it helps a lot if both parties can be truthful AND controlled in the way they express themselves. The OP probably already understands that keeping the truth from her isn't going to help the situation. But sadly, if she is feeling hurt or disrespected, it will be extremely difficult for her to manage those feelings and communicate them constructively. Even non BPD people don't do well with being hurt. So this is a whole different ballgame.

It's hard to say for sure how insecure she was in this particular relationship. This event could have been the catalyst to make her feel insecure, when she actually wasn't yet. Many BPD relationships start out in the idealization phase, and she might have been operating under the assumption that he felt the exact same way about her as she did him. (He mentioned that she said she only thinks about him - and that may well be true.) Finding out otherwise might have really been traumatic for her and something she wasn't expecting. Again - I'm not saying that because she has certain standards in a relationship about these things, that he is required to have the same ones. But not being on the same page there might cause problems for them. (Or, well, it has.) Should she go overboard in tearing him apart for it? Of course not. She could have stated her case more calmly... .but that's not a luxury the BPD person has, unfortunately - for both of them.

[BeagleGirl]

    I didn't really want to get into this portion of the discussion, but I feel my viewpoint may be beneficial.  Please take this as just that - a viewpoint.  I'm definitely in the "confirmation bias zone" to an extent that I don't think I could hear an argument that would convince me that porn is completely harmless.  That said, I try to understand that not being able to hear an argument is not the same as there not being a valid argument.  I think of my stance on this issue as being similar to someone who has been repeatedly beaten by an alcoholic and can't imagine why anyone would choose to drink.

    So from that viewpoint, I'd like to address a couple things that you've said that I can probably give a nonBPD's view of that might help you better understand your pwBPD's response.  

"How is having a feeling disrespectful?"
Feeling that there is nothing wrong with porn is a feeling - nothing wrong with that.  Acting on that feeling when you know that it is counter to your partner's feeling and expecting her to have no problem with that - inconsiderate.  Think of it as you feeling there is no problem with gun ownership and your partner being very anti-gun.  She may never understand why you don't see the danger in guns but that doesn't mean you have to change her mind or yours.  You DO have to be honest and not bring guns into her home, knowing her feelings about them, without informing her of your intention to do so and giving her the option to break off the relationship so that she feels safe.  Even if you don't bring guns into her home, she may feel strongly enough about gun ownership that she doesn't want to be in a relationship with someone who owns guns "in the privacy of their own home".  

"I didn't even think of it as putting my rights and desires aside for the relationship. When you put it like that, it doesn't sound appealing at all. I am not a fan of the idea of compromising myself or who I am for someone else."
As someone who lasted 23 years in a marriage I think the statement above may be a bit informed by the lack of relationship experience you mentioned in your posts.  Being in a relationship is ALL ABOUT putting aside your rights and desires for the good of the relationship.  Obviously this can be taken to an extreme where it is unhealthy, but people who are unwilling to put aside some of their rights and desires will not succeed in maintaining a healthy relationship.  For example - it is my right to put my clothes wherever I want.  I desire to not be bothered with putting them in the laundry basket.  Those rights and desires conflict with those of my husband who has a right to not have to pick my clothes up off the floor and desires that I put them in the laundry hamper.  One or both of us will have to put aside our rights and desires to a certain extent or the marriage will end over where I put my clothes.  I'm NOT saying that you compromise who you are.  I'm saying that if giving up the right to put my clothes on the floor would save the marriage, I would be foolish to cling to that right.  This is where you do need to decide how important your right to partake in porn is to you.

"I think it's important to not confuse my going on porn with hurting her, either. Is that really the case? I think it's rather silly to think I was "hurting" her by going on porn in the privacy of my own home before bed, on occasion. She has even gone so far as to accuse me of disrespecting and hurting her by thinking of girls other than her when I masturbate -- without the use of porn."

This is the topic that I kinda wanted to avoid.  I have very strong feelings on this.  I don't expect you to agree with those feelings, but I think that maybe a peek into my view of this might help you understand your partner's fears so that you can address them from a more empathetic place.

My dBPDh and I were both raised to believe that porn is a sin.  I don't know how much that prior "conditioning" played into what happened, but I can tell you how it played out.

I'll start by saying that I believe that porn was an addiction for my husband.  We are separated, so I can't tell you what he currently believes, but he did believe strongly enough that it was an addiction before our separation to go through a program for porn addicts.  

Here's the history of my experience with porn so you can get a feel for the impact it had on me.  This was a chronic issue in our marriage that often felt like death by 1000 cuts.  We went through periods when he "had it under control", but even in those times I know that the fear of "relapse" and the way I internalized thought patterns around what porn meant to him and me were pretty constant companions.

Before we got married, my husband shared with me that he had been exposed to porn at a friend's house when he was 12.  It was something he was ashamed of and didn't want in his life in any way.  He felt it was a sin.  We were both virgins on our wedding night.

1 year into our marriage I discovered porn in the browser history of our computer.  I had never been exposed to porn before and what I saw left me feeling humiliated and inadequate.  It also left me frightened and hurting for my husband.  He was sinning and I was supposed to be his "helpmate".  I approached him with both my pain and the desire to help him stop sinning.  Was I not caring for his "needs" adequately?  Was I not enough for him?  How could I protect him from the temptation he was falling into?  I asked that he let me know when he was "struggling" so I could help him.

Fast forward several years.  He has never come to me saying he was struggling and, when asked if he's struggling has always responded "no", but I have periodically caught him (browser history or in the act) and it has further eroded my trust in him and view of myself.  I now acknowledge that he is unable to come to me for support in this area and ask him to have someone else as an accountability person.  I am holding myself accountable for "meeting his needs", something that makes me feel used and I continue to feel inadequate because, in my mind, he isn't satisfied by me. I know that he is role playing things he's seen on porn with me and asking me to do things that I'm not comfortable with.  

I will stop the chronological stuff here and just give you the "greatest hits" of where it ended up.  Some of this I was aware of and some of it he revealed to me.  

The night I was miscarrying our third child (something I went through while in a hotel on a family vacation) I had cried myself to sleep only to wake up in the middle of the night to him watching porn and masturbating right next to me in bed.  I remember feeling responsible for him "needing" to cope with the stress by reverting to porn but also incredibly hurt and lonely.  I said "I'm sorry, but the doctor says I can't have sex right now" and cried until I fell asleep again.

Hubby wasn't employed for many years and was supposed to be homeschooling our older son.  There were other things he did instead of homeschooling (which left our son in danger of not graduating until he revealed it to me and I took over and supported our son through completing 4 months of school work in 6 weeks) but one of the things he would do was go upstairs and view porn/masturbate for hours on end.

Those are big hurts, but they pale in comparison to the many nights I would wake up alone and know that the glow of the computer screen was more attractive than I was, the times I knew he was acting out what he had seen with me and would be upset because I was not complying/enjoying the things "those women" screamed in ecstasy over, the constant message that still plays in my head "I'm not enough, not enough, not enough".

I don't know if your partner has experienced something like this before, but if she has, I can understand the obsessive need to know that you won't do that to her.  I can understand that the apology for the lie feels like a diversion from what she really wants - the apology for doing something that makes her feel like she's not enough.

One last thing - the idea that "what she doesn't know won't hurt her" is not something I agree with.  There were plenty of times when I didn't "know" what my husband was doing.  Some of those times I actively pursued uncovering his porn use because I knew that "something was wrong" and needed to know I wasn't crazy.  I know it could be argued that the distance in our relationship led to porn use, but I believe that he was distancing himself from me to allow room for porn.  I believe that he found that kind of sexual release much more convenient and less "costly" because those women never nagged or needed anything in return.  I believe that his view of intimacy became very narrow and his appetite for what I could offer was dulled by the unlimited buffet he had access to online.  

My viewpoint - porn does impact relationships.  Even if it didn't, in my mind it very nearly equates to using a prostitute.  I know that there is a very wide spectrum of stances on how acceptable porn is and I know that there are aspects of having sex with another human that are not in play when it's porn and not a prostitute, but to give you the type of thought that may be influencing your partner's reaction:

If you were meeting with a prostitute on a regular basis "in the privacy of your own home, on your own time", do you think that wouldn't be hurtful?  :)o you think that's something that she should/could live with not knowing about?

If the answer is yes, then I think you've uncovered a fundamental difference in thinking that may indicate an incompatibility with her and possibly other non-BPD women (like myself).  It's something to consider in this and any future relationships.

BeagleGirl

[BasementDweller]

OP, with total respect, please read this statement you wrote: "I think it's important to not confuse my going on porn with hurting her, either. Is that really the case? I think it's rather silly to think I was "hurting" her by going on porn in the privacy of my own home before bed, on occasion. She has even gone so far as to accuse me of disrespecting and hurting her by thinking of girls other than her when I masturbate -- without the use of porn."

Is it possible that there's no confusion here to be had? She IS hurt. She does feel disrepected. It really doesn't matter that YOU cannot understand that. If she says that's how she feels, it's valid. This may be hard to understand if you can't put yourself in her shoes, and empathize with her point of view. And therein lies the problem in most relationship conflicts. Not recognizing the validity of the other person's feelings.

Facts: She feels these things are disrespectful and hurtful. What anyone else, you, I, or the Pope feels - don't matter. She is telling the truth when she says this, and the pain she feels is very, very real to her.

You could say to her, "I understand and believe that you feel hurt and disrespected by my actions. I don't want to hurt you." (If it is in fact true that you do not.)

Then maybe ask her what she needs from you to feel better and to not hurt or feel disrespected.

If she says "stop watching porn and looking at and thinking about other girls" then it is up to you to decide if doing these things is more important to you than staying in the relationship with her. Because you may not be able to do both. And it's irrelevant whether or not anyone else thinks these behaviors are ok. She doesn't. And she is the one you are currently in a relationship with. That's a fact that isn't going away anytime soon, and it will continue to affect your relationship. Ultimately, you both deserve happiness. You deserve to be with someone you feel comfortable with, and she deserves to be with someone she feels truly loves her the way she wants to be loved. And if she is only thinking about her partner, she is hoping for the same degree of love and respect that she sees herself putting forth to you. Your real dilemma here is figuring out what's REALLY important to you. She already knows what's important to her, and she told you.

[formflier]

Please don't hear me minimize or maximize the importance or value of the "thing" (in this case porn) on a person or a relationship.

Porn will have an effect and that may be different to different people and different couples. 

If "fingers could be snapped" and porn went "poof"... .away and never existed... .I would suggest that dysfunction would show up in another area of the persons life and relationships that extend from that person. 


BG,

I'm so sorry you went through that on a night of a miscarriage.  We've had a miscarriage in our marriage, it was a devastating time.  And yes... .BPD reared its head (it was after the natural disaster where my wife's symptoms appeared) and made it all the worse. 

In my case, i took reasonable steps to care for and be close to my wife, it's likely that was invalidating to her and she accused me of all sorts of things... .mind reading... etc etc.

Thanks for being open about a painful part of your life, please don't take any of my words to minimize your experience.


I think your story is more illustrative of the limitations of a person with BPD to show empathy and care for another person than it is the impact of porn on a relationship.  If porn was "poofed" away, I would suspect BG would have woken up to a hubby playing a video game or otherwise entertaining himself.

My point is not "what exactly" the other person (in this case BGs hubby) was doing it has more to do with a person unable to express empathy to a hurting person that is close to them.  Also likely they are (on some level) aware this is not "how it should be" and experience a certain level of shame (which they deal with dysfunctionally)


Porn certainly can be addicting.  I would suggest BGs hubby was addicted.  A simple test is if a person can set aside (fill in blank of potential addiction) in order to do something necessary.  In this case he couldn't... .or didn't.

   

FF