Keeping mommy & kids connected and safe

[fontinalis]

This is my first post on this board. My previous life on the rebuilding or reversing a breakup board is here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=318780.0;all

I'll go over it here too so you don't have to read all of that. My stbxuBPDw and I have been married for 13 years, and we have a D12, S10, and S7. There were about three years in the very middle that were relatively stable and I felt like we were in love. The rest has been filled with emotional, verbal, financial, and in the last three years, physical abuse. I said over and over again that I would call the police ("then you don't love me", but it took me until last April to follow through. Nothing came of that call, but she would often say it was the worst thing anyone had ever done to her. After another violent rage in November, she was finally arrested and charged with domestic battery.

I immediately felt extreme FOG and began thinking of ways to rescue her. At the first Protection From Abuse order hearing, I asked the judge to modify the order to give her supervised visitation (her attorney only intended to ask for a continuance). The visits have gone very well and the kids are visibly relieved. I started writing conditions to dismiss the PFA petition altogether... .Wentworth (thank you!) was very helpful in talking me out of the FOG and guiding me through the process of setting up a recovery and reconciliation plan.

But, I found out on Thursday that she filled for divorce. I am heartbroken. I cried for the first time since going on antidepressants. Sobbed, actually.

We had another hearing yesterday, but just another continuance so that the PFA and the divorce can be merged. The first hearing for that isn't until March 14th! I'm not sure I can survive all of this drawn out anxiety. I am not sleeping well at all.

In the meantime, there will be a review hearing in two weeks because my wife (makes me cry to say that) has petitioned to have unsupervised visits. I am not comfortable with that. She slapped our daughter in August. I have text messages where she talks about it, although indirectly. She also repeatedly threatened to take the kids back to her home country, a notorious place for parental child abductions. I got a letter from her attorney to the court stating that she admits to the battery, but all other allegations are false and asking to dismiss the petition and for compensation (I think that's what it says... .the legalese is dense). But I had my phone in my pocket recording her after a separate violent rage in December, 2016, when she repeatedly threatened to do that and totally cut me off from the kids. She also talked about hitting me and how it was justified.

My attorney said I've done a great job of putting together evidence and we have a solid case. It still makes me so anxious that I feel like I'm going to throw up all of the time.

The members here have been so helpful! I wish I would have known about this website and SWOES years ago! But it was hard to learn these things while walking on those eggshells! I've since read Splitting (scared the #$! out of me!) and The High Conflict Couple. I am becoming a better parent and person thanks to this... .I just wish it didn't have to come so hard. Any advice and support is dearly appreciated! (TT)

[livednlearned]

Hi fontinalis,

I'm so sorry you and your kids were abused like that, and yes -- it is heartbreaking to go through divorce  

Even when it involves someone who abuses you, there is grief about giving up the chance that things will get better.

You mentioned antidepressants. I'm guessing you have a counselor involved already?

I am from a different country, too, although in my case, it was my ex who had a lot of paranoia and (unfounded) fear that I would take then S9 to my home country. If your situation were in my state, filing for divorce and creating an active case actually makes it harder to take a child out of the country. It does not technically become abduction unless there is a file in the court because a parent can take a child anywhere at anytime prior to that.

If you have evidence that she is a flight risk, you could conceivably ask her to post a form of bond (insurance). That way, if she does take the kids, you have money to pay for legal proceedings in a foreign country to get them back. I'm not suggesting you say yes to the unsupervised visits (doesn't sound safe for the kids... .), but asking her to post bond is an example of being a problem-solver in court. It allows you to appear reasonable while testing her ability to be reasonable in return. Often, pwBPD struggle with it, especially when the sunlight of court starts to shine on things.

I'm guessing you are familiar with the Hague treaty? Each country has different agreements about how to handle international child abduction cases. My home country honors the home court rulings of US courts, but this is not always the case. If your wife did disappear with the kids, you would call 911, and the first thing they do is check to see if there is an open file in the court system. Then that launches a series of steps involving law enforcement.

Are you feeling responsible for deciding to grant her unsupervised or supervised? Or is it more than you prefer supervised, and feel FOG about the unsupervised? It's a good idea to take your L's advice in these situations. A lot of us tend to self-sabotage because of FOG, making it harder for our Ls to help us.

It's a bit of a wake-up call to learn that family court is not as concerned about adult-to-adult behaviors as much as they are with what happens to the kids. If you take steps to protect yourself like you did, then court is likely to expect you to take the same measures with regard to your kids, especially given the kind of evidence you have. Going from supervised to unsupervised for no reason could make it seem like you aren't seriously concerned with the kids well-being -- that's how court thinks, in my experience.

I'm so sorry you are at this point, fontinalis. If it helps, we have some resources on the site about the psychological and emotional aspects of divorce that might help you walk this journey.

Whatever happens, you're not alone. We're here to walk with you.

 

LnL

[fontinalis]

Thank you for your kind reply, LnL! I am in therapy, thanks to the DA's victim/witness program. I just had a very wonderful, healing session this morning. I will be reading the links you provided too!

I already had a temporary order giving me sole custody and requiring her to relinquish her passport before she filled for divorce. Her country ratified the Hague treaty a few years back, but enforcement is still abysmal from what I read. Our kids were all born there, and we lived there for five years. It's a wonderful country and I really love it. I often regret moving back to the States six and a half years ago, but their divorce/custody laws are scary. They do not recognize dual custody and they have no enforcement mechanism for visitation. I would almost certainly lose the kids.

I think I have made it out of the FOG about visitation. I am absolutely opposed to unsupervised visitation until she has gotten herself into therapy and consistently demonstates significant progress. I am very happy with and committed to supervised visits, however. The kids have gotten more quality time with her in the last month of weekend visits than they did in the entire three months before she got herself taken out of our home.

I don't want to alienate the kids from their heritage. Oddly enough, I was always the one who was more likely to talk to them not in English, or to cook home food for them (my wife almost never cooked). I've continued to facilitate the kids Skyping with their grandpa over there every day. I would love for them to be able to visit there as often as possible, but that just feels too risky.

I feel sad for her, but I'm done feeling guilty. I did no cause her abusive behavior, and I can't rescue her anymore. I will love and accept her from a distance, and I will be her biggest (secret) supporter cheering on her recovery, if she has the courage to get help.

[Radcliff]

fontinalis, welcome to the Family Law board.  This is actually where I put my first post, about this time last year, and in fact livednlearned was one of the first two people to welcome me to this board and the bpdfamily community and reassure me at a truly bad time for me and my family.  You are in good hands!

It sounds like your next hearing is not until March 14th?  Try to look at the time between now and then not as anxious waiting time, holding your breath, but as a time for the turbulence to go down a bit, for things to get a bit smoother with less change for a while.  That will probably be good for you and the kids.  You have been so focused on making decisions, documenting, and steering the ship.  You now have some breathing room to start to do some healthy and enjoyable things for yourself and for the kids.

The name of the judge you will have on March 14 is probably on your court papers, and if not, your lawyer should be able to tell you.  The judge may hold court sessions at regular days and times during the week.  You can find this out from the court or your lawyer.  One thing that greatly reduced my anxiety about going to court was when my domestic violence advocate suggested that she go with me to visit our judge's courtroom when court was in session.  I sat for about an hour and a half watching cases.  I saw that this particular judge seemed to have carefully read all the material the parties had filed with him.  I liked that he took the time necessary and didn't appear to rush through things, treating everyone with respect.  I also watched the parties and their lawyers talking, and could see which ones were using too many words, which ones were complaining to much or not answering the judge's questions, etc.  It was like being in school when you have to give a presentation and you get lucky and go last, after watching all the other students.  You might consider doing a visit right away, and then putting it out of your mind for six weeks, or putting it out of your mind for six weeks, then doing the visit.  It's nice to have someone go with you, but certainly not required.  If the bailiff or anyone asks you what you are there for, just tell them you have a pending case and wanted to get oriented.

What fun, healing, or relaxing things can you do for yourself in the next few weeks?

WW

[ForeverDad]

Are you feeling responsible for deciding to grant her unsupervised or supervised? Or is it more than you prefer supervised, and feel FOG about the unsupervised? It's a good idea to take your L's advice in these situations. A lot of us tend to self-sabotage because of FOG, making it harder for our Ls to help us.

Your lawyer isn't emotionally vested in your case's outcome.  Doesn't mean your lawyer doesn't care, just that your lawyer can be more objective.  We're Nice Guys and Nice Gals here, partly that otherwise fine quality is what got us stuck in our messes, so having a lawyer who is not emotionally focused on feeling sorry or guilted into feeling a need to be super-fair is actually good.

It's a bit of a wake-up call to learn that family court is not as concerned about adult-to-adult behaviors as much as they are with what happens to the kids. If you take steps to protect yourself like you did, then court is likely to expect you to take the same measures with regard to your kids, especially given the kind of evidence you have. Going from supervised to unsupervised for no reason could make it seem like you aren't seriously concerned with the kids well-being -- that's how court thinks, in my experience.

There's nothing wrong with the court seeing you be a (reasonable) papa bear.  Be seen also as a problem solver.  Is your lawyer a proactive problem solver too?  The typical form filer, hand holder lawyer type who assumes everything will reach an easy settlement is sadly not for us.  Have you read Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder by William Eddy & Randi Kreger?

[fontinalis]

There will be a review hearing next week on her motion to modify the temporary order to allow unsupervised visitation, but the full hearing on whether or not to grant a permanent order has been rolled into the divorce case. Her attorney sent a letter to the court last week stating that my stbxw admits to the battery but denies all other allegations, including other incidents of DV, verbal abuse, and threats to take the kids away from me. But I have pictures of many bruises over the years, a secret audio recording in which she threatened to take the kids several times and talked about hitting me, abusive text messages, emails, and a letter of "advice for the husband and the wife" that our daughter slipped under the door after her mom hit me once several years ago. I didn't cause her to be in this situation, and I'm done rescuing her. I am trying to be the kind person I feel I was before all of this destroyed me, but I have to accept that maybe she and her friends will not be able to see that I am trying my best to handle this with love and care for her.

My kids come first, so I will not budge on supervision. She has to get help and demonstrate radical changes before we can discuss unsupervised visitation. The letter made me give up a lot of hope that she might be ready to seek help.

I know I have solid evidence and my lawyer is confident, but I can't help feeling extremely anxious about next week's hearing. I will be very relieved to get over that hurdle and have a break before the divorce hearing in March.

I will be meeting with my lawyer again two days before the hearing. There are so many unknowns and I have so many questions. I've never done this before and I hope to never do it again. I wonder how DV affects the divorce, other than custody. I wonder what to do about taxes... .I suppose I just have to do married filing separately this time and take the hit... .What a strange nightmare this all is!

[Radcliff]

fontinalis, good luck with the hearing, and keep us posted.

You might consider doing a transcript of that audio recording, since judge's time to review materials is limited, especially if the words used are among your most convincing evidence.

You've probably worked on this with your lawyer already, but organize your evidence by priority, most important stuff first, and prioritize what supports your key points.  You'll have a big stack of paper, but hopefully "win" your audience in the first 1-3 pages.  Consider a 1 page executive summary with all of your key points.  Again, you probably have this already, but wanted to mention just in case.

WW

[livednlearned]

Her attorney sent a letter to the court last week stating that my stbxw admits to the battery but denies all other allegations, including other incidents of DV, verbal abuse, and threats to take the kids away from me.

Judges tend to be very cautious, conservative, tentative in what they do, and in my experience, status quo goes a long way. I wouldn't be surprised if this hearing is more of a formality (because anyone can file a motion), since you have already been told it's being rolled into the divorce case. The judge might use this opportunity to tell your wife she needs to take anger management classes or something proactive to show proof she is trying to reform her behavior. One thing I learned is that judges are considered "supreme witnesses" in a case, so the judge may create an opportunity for your wife to demonstrate something, giving him something to "witness," so to speak.

What do you think about Wentworth's suggestion to attend a few hearings? I wish someone had given me that advice back in the day -- there is so much anxiety about the unknown, as you say, and familiarizing yourself with the building, the room, the judge, these are all things that can help manage anxiety.  

About taxes, in my case (very high conflict), we actually had it written into our orders to file jointly because it was financially advantageous. It's apparently a standard thing to ask, so it might not look out of the ordinary if both lawyers agreed to add it.

One of the things you "buy" when you hire a lawyer is their knowledge of the judge. Has your lawyer given you any indication what your judge is like? Or, if the judges rotate off other benches, what other background might he or she have?

[ForeverDad]

Reasons her lawyer is doing the blanket denial of all prior incidents are... .

(1) that it is the easiest defense tactic, make the other person prove it hoping there are no records or documentation, making it a case of "he said, she said" that can devolve into hearsay which would be ignored.  Claiming "he always... ." or "she always... ." is weak testimony and generally ignored as hearsay.  If you are vague and don't have details of the timing, location and other specifics then there is risk of being challenged.

(2) courts can view older incidents (typically 6 months or more before the case started) as "stale" or outdated, not an indication of a person now.  So one approach could be to present the old incidents as a continuing pattern of her behaviors.  Patterns are made over time and so might avoid the times limits applied to individual incidents.

[Radcliff]

fontinalis, good luck this week.  Let us know how it goes in court, and of course if you have any questions or just want to share worries or concerns.

WW

[fontinalis]

Thank you so much everyone! I am sorry for the silence. I was feeling pretty overwhelmed with all of this and was trying (not all that successfully) not to think about it. But I've got to kick it into gear now.

I've almost finished a transcript of the recording. It's painful to listen to. So much hatred. My therapist also suggested gathering evidence to show that her home country has a known problem with parental child abductions. I found a recent State Department report that says so, and an article from the Washington Post from 2017 that says they are not properly implementing the Hague Convention.

I will be meeting with my lawyer again on Wednesday and the review hearing is on Friday. Her plea hearing in the criminal case is next Monday. I'm getting myself worked up again. Maybe it's irrational, but I am so afraid of not being taken seriously, and of the courts feeling sorry for her. This did happen! And as I'm coming out of the FOG thanks to the support of my therapist, a dear friend, and my family (I finally told my mom everything this weekend), and I'm seeing that it was even more abusive than I thought.

My therapist personally knows the judge who will hear the review and she assured me that he cares deeply about families and always strives to make the most informed and safe decision. But after this hurdle, it will be merged with the divorce case and handed off to a new judge. That's five different judges so far between the criminal and civil cases!

Well, I have to get back to work... .Thank you all again for your support! I will keep you posted.

[Radcliff]

I'm getting myself worked up again. Maybe it's irrational, but I am so afraid of not being taken seriously, and of the courts feeling sorry for her. This did happen! And as I'm coming out of the FOG thanks to the support of my therapist, a dear friend, and my family (I finally told my mom everything this weekend), and I'm seeing that it was even more abusive than I thought.

fontinalis, I'm 100% with you on this one.  In the initial stages my anxiety about not being believed was huge.  It was really the main driver behind all of the documentation I kept.  It sounds like our experiences may be similar.  When the outsiders have seen my extensive documentation paired with my genuine concern for my family, they unanimously have believed me and seen the abuse as worse than I did, not less serious.  There are no guarantees -- I have ready of plenty of situations were the survivor had to fight to be believed -- but it sounds like we are both fortunate so far in our experiences with judges, lawyers, and therapists.  You should take credit for the quality of your documentation, and the courage you are showing by working with it (I spent hours putting raw journal notes into a form legal folks and therapists could read; it was excruciating).  When I went to court to observe, I was impressed with how diligent and caring the judge was, but realized how tough it would be to be in his position with a "he said, she said" case.  I think folks in those roles really appreciate the clarity provided by good documentation -- it helps them feel like they are doing the right thing.  They also are sick of drama, so factual documentation with no spin or invective is something they really appreciate I think.  I still have pangs of self doubt, wondering if I'm making too much out of this, but those feelings are getting farther apart.  It gets better.

WW

[livednlearned]

I am so afraid of not being taken seriously, and of the courts feeling sorry for her.

Courts can feel sorry for her and erect strong boundaries to protect you and the kids at the same time. They can take you seriously and give her a chance to demonstrate better self-control and parenting.

Just because we became susceptible to disordered thinking doesn't mean that others will do the same. 

It's normal to feel anxious before court because there is uncertainty.

Keep note of the number of times your worries are not founded so you can start to get a clear picture about the overall trajectory of your situation.

It sounds to me like protective forces are on your side  

[fontinalis]

The meeting with my attorney today was difficult. Because the state we live in allows corporal punishment of children, only violence that causes "lasting harm" is considered abuse. So the time she slapped our daughter... .Not abuse as far as the courts are concerned. And apparently only violence or the threat of violence are considered abuse. Not the words that broke our spirits worse than our bodies, or the physical abuse of their dad that the kids had to watch so many times. So basically, none of the abuse we endured for so long that is likely to prevent her from getting joint legal custody and equal (unsupervised) parenting time.

She is asking for primary residential custody and over 2/3 of my gross income in child support. My attorney thinks that neither of those are likely, which was the only ray of hope. My wife told her attorney that WE had a toxic relationship, and that is why SHE had to get out of it so she could heal. It makes me sick to my stomach. There was no WE in her choice to hit me, over and over again.

There was more, but I'm a little too overwhelmed to keep writing now. Thank you all for your care and support!

[ForeverDad]

We feel for you.  We too had aspects of our cases that seemed to enable our disordered ex-spouses.  You can get through these tough times just like we did.  Time and emotional distance will be part of the process for your recovery from all this, the past as well as the unwinding of the marriage.

Up front, it's unlikely the calculations would award her 2/3 of your gross income.  Taxes will take a portion.  Also, you need to have a place to live, sufficiently large to be able to house your kids too for the time they're with you on your parenting time.  I really doubt she could get that much and leave you mere crumbs.  Your county probably has a published calculation sheet where you could plug in the numbers and see a ballpark figure that is more likely.  Understand that she is asking for her own entitled expectations.

Is the residence a house?  If she can't afford to pay for the home's expenses herself then she's probably asking for you to pay the costs.  The reality is she would have to find a more modest, less expensive place.  Often neither parent can afford the home on their own.  If so then the house needs to be sold and the marital equity be split in the divorce and used for each to relocate to affordable residences.

An example of her entitlement, she is asking for majority time.  Maybe she'll get it, maybe she won't.  However, there is nothing to say you can't do the same.  If you state you have concerns about her parenting without you there every day, why not ask for majority time?  Oh, would she say she's a stay at home mother (SAHM)?  Well, you ought to ask the court to have her start looking for work or a career for her post-marital life, you want her to be able to support herself.  Meanwhile every time her income comes up and she wants to say zero, you can ask that her income be imputed to what she could earn if she did work.  (Hey, millions of mothers work, why should she be the exception?)  Imputing what she could earn might reduce the $$$ she could suck out of your parenting ability.

If she is SAHM, then she will probably be considered the majority time parent and the temp order has a risk of supporting that.  That doesn't mean you or your lawyer goes along with that.  You have concerns about her and her parenting.  You too can ask for majority but then also tell the court that if it doesn't see the need then you can work with equal time.  The point is not to be timid and fail to ask for what you know is best for the children.  Yeah, you may not get it but at least you can be consistent in stating your concerns.  Hopefully it will get put on the record.  (My court seemed to avoid putting anything "on the record".  It felt like with less on record then the court could use its allowed 'discretion' to issue typical orders.)

A temp order is seldom changed.  Unfortunately our divorces take a long time.  That is good reason to try to get as good a temp order as possible.  My court never changed my temp orders.  The separation temp order lasted about 4 months, favorable to mother despite her facing a Threat of DV charge in another court.  When that was dismissed she blocked my father-child contact.  It took me a month to realize how determined she was and to file for divorce and then wait a couple more months for a hearing.  The court confirmed with her that she had blocked my contact for 3 months and 'fixed' it by making a new order almost identical to the first, still totally in her favor.  This temp order was not temporary, the divorce lasted nearly two years.  And as I wrote, it was not inclined to modify it when I reported problems with it.

Many here have had to get an in-depth evaluation to dig into the family dynamic (and dysfunction).  In most areas it is called a custody evaluation.  Make sure you get an experienced evaluator with a solid reputation of respected reports.

My state too does not see physical punishment as automatically bad.  But it has a hard time drawing the line.  I recall calling CPS twice in the months before separation, reporting that my preschooler was exposed to her rants and rages directed at me, he was hiding behind the sofa and under the table, even lying prone on the floor.  That exposure wasn't seen as actionable.  I was told to call back if she directed her rages at him.

Edit... .I just look back at the prior posts and realized she's seeking to get supervised removed.  Since it started so badly for her, it's unlikely she can get majority time.  However, many here found that courts try not to make either parent look bad and they can excuse huge misbehaviors.  Likely they will want to see a pathway for her to earn her place back into parenting to some extent, possibly with Anger Management and even better, therapy with accountability.  So don't feel sorry for her or let her minimize or hide her poor behaviors, it could turn out to be self-sabotaging for you.

I'm guessing she doesn't work?  Then you would have a valid point if you stated that you want her to be self-sufficient post-marriage and that her finding employment would be a good and practical thing for her.  After all, the kids are all in school.  She has the time to work, after all, many kids are at a daycare before and after school.

[Radcliff]

fontinalis, I'm sorry that your meeting with the lawyer contained bad news.  Through setbacks and successes, we'll stick with you!  You are doing good work.

Forgive me if I have forgotten, but have you spoken to a domestic violence advocate?  They are not all created equal -- if you shop around with the different agencies, you may find a very experienced one who knows the courts and the laws well.  They often have accumulated a lot of practical knowledge that can help you independently assess the strategy your lawyer is recommending.  They may have some good suggestions.

In a situation like this, in a state which doesn't appear to have the most progressive DV laws, and where your wife appears to be giving you strong opposition, you'll need your lawyer to be top notch and intimately familiar with DV.  Are you comfortable with your lawyer so far?  When you ask challenging questions, does he respond well?  Is he able to describe a strategy to you that takes into account the obstacles and your objectives, that makes sense to you?

WW

[ForeverDad]

Many lawyers are accustomed to divorces ending in settlements and the usual ways things are handled in court.  Sadly, our cases, the 5-10% high conflict ones, don't progress well with a passive approach.  If you've read Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder by William Eddy & Randi Kreger, you will have noted he recommends a proactive, experienced, problem solving attorney.  Just any lawyer isn't enough.

So what strategies is your lawyer recommending as proactive options?  Does he have any approaches that address the court's desire to reintegrate the restricted parent into less limited parental time yet preserve your proper control of parenting and parental decisions?

One issue to deal with is that courts often separate poor adult behaviors from poor parenting behaviors.  Adult issues often get ignored or minimized and so that often leaves parental behaviors as the ones the court deem more actionable.  So don't get hung up highlighting the adult misbehaviors, give priority to the parenting misbehaviors.  As an example my ex started (mostly) hating me months before our separation.  Over 12 years later she still hates me.  But that's not what courts give much attention to.  The key is to focus on how the children are impacted, for better or for worse.

Feel free to continue picking our brains.  We've walked in your shoes.  With more education and continuing peer support you will find that you can make more informed and more confident decisions.

[livednlearned]

I'm so sorry you have to go through this fontinalis. It's really hard to meet with lawyers and feel retraumatized in the retelling, and to feel that the system is unfair. I hope you are doing things to take care of yourself, tho I know how hard that can be when everything hurts.

Because the state we live in allows corporal punishment of children, only violence that causes "lasting harm" is considered abuse. So the time she slapped our daughter... .Not abuse as far as the courts are concerned. And apparently only violence or the threat of violence are considered abuse.

When you're ready, I hope you feel comfortable sharing what your lawyer suggests doing next.

Even if your wife's actions did not constitute abuse in the way your state defines, I don't think it means the L can't ask for your wife to meet certain conditions. Meaning, there may not be a legal slum dunk to prevent unsupervised parenting time, but your L could ask that mom does parenting classes and anger management before day/date, attending each class, paying for them on her own, and reporting back to court before a final ruling. Some hoops to jump through. Court can give her a chance to demonstrate how capable she is of proving she can demonstrate a willingness to improve.

Your wife sounds well coached in what to say. She may struggle to have her words and actions match if there is light shed on her ability to comply with reasonable expectations, like a parenting class.

[fontinalis]

Well, it's over at least. She gets unsupervised visits twice a week from 3:30-5:30 PM, and on Saturday from 7:30 AM-4:00 PM, at our house. Meaning I have to get out. If there are no incidents after three weeks, the times get expanded to 7:30 PM. If there are no incidents after another three weeks, she gets them overnight on the weekend. She apparently has already started therapy and the order requires her to stay in it.

It isn't what I had hoped for, but I guess it could have been worse. Fingers crossed it will be OK. I felt like my lawyer was doing her best, but when the system emphasizes conciliation over the facts, it's hard. My anxiety is better now, though. I had an appointment with my psychiatrist yesterday and I asked him what to do when I take the medicine but I'm still panicking. He said I could double the dose. I said I would need two for the hearing, and he said with a funny grin, ":)on't especulate!" He's a very kind old Cuban man. I like him and my therapist both a lot.

A couple of things not related to court happened that really unnerved me. When the judge sent our lawyers back to work out an agreement, I went back to my seat only to find my wife's yoga guru who she's living with now sitting in my seat. She gave me the most ridiculously cartoonish frown I have ever seen.

Later when I was waiting outside of the courtroom, my wife made eye contact with me and mouthed "I love you" and cried. I fell apart. My lawyer pulled me into a conference room and gave me a bunch of tissues. I don't know what was really going through her mind when she did that. I wish I could just be done with her. I'm sure that was a violation of the NC order in her bond.

My attorney thinks the eventual parenting plan will only need slight modification so that we can communicate in writing about the kids. She's confident I will get primary custody and I probably won't have to pay her anything or sell the house. She also thinks there's a good chance that my wife will skip the country when she realizes she's not getting any money out of this... .That would be hard for the kids in the short term.

Ugh... .I just want to be done and move on with MY life. Co-parenting sounds like just another way for BPD to rule our lives for the next 11 years... .Has anyone here ever reached a comfortable place in this?

The support of everyone here is amazing. Thank you all

[Radcliff]

fontinalis, this is going to be rough, there's no way around it.  I'm sorry it's so tough, but you're doing well.  Knock on wood, if you get primary custody, the house, and no payments to her, that will be three huge steps towards setting up a stable life for you and the kids.

If you don't get any replies on this thread to your coparenting question, you might want to start a fresh thread with a descriptive title.  Lay out the background, and the custody schedule, and ask folks for advice.

WW

[ForeverDad]

Previously I wrote that "the court will desire to reintegrate the restricted parent into less limited parental time" and it appears that is what happened, in scheduled steps.  Understand that even if your ex does apply the therapy in her life and perceptions — a huge IF — recovery won't be sudden or quick.  Therapy is a long term process.

Yes, it does appear that you will be primary parent for the foreseeable future but that doesn't mean she won't try to sabotage your position over time.  You need to be seen as the more stable parent, the problem solving parent.  She probably would have to demonstrate a real change, in her and in you, in the court's viewpoint to flip things in her favor.

I'm not sure what primary custodial parent means in your area.  Is that full custody or joint custody?  In some states they allow joint custody to include one parent getting Decision Making or Tie Breaker status.  The benefit is that it makes joint custody almost like full custody since it means you don't have to get court or mediator approval first in major custody disputes such as school, doctors, religion, etc.  With DM or TB you can proceed if ex disagrees and then it is the ex who would have to go to court or similar process to object.

I learned that though there is a No Contact order, it generally doesn't have to apply when there are officers of the court present who can preserve the peace.  It could be bailiffs, police officers, sheriff's deputies or even lawyers.  So ex mouthing 'I love you' in the court house may not be considered a violation, however feel free to ask your lawyer since we here are peer support.

[fontinalis]

The first visit went very well. She's being the mother she never was before she was arrested. The kids were so happy. I feel guilty for being suspicious of her motivations. So much of what she did during the 14 years of our relationship was not at all straightforward, so it's hard for me to accept goodness for goodness. Ugh, why is it so hard to let go of knowing what the hell is going on in her head? Especially considering I never have been able to make sense of it.

She smiled and waved to me as she was pulling in to the driveway. I didn't feel the painful and conflicting emotions I did the day before when she mouthed "I love you." I just felt sad and a littlle angry about the logical inconsistencies of pwBPD. But, I was off to therapy ant it was wonderful! My therapist gave me a neat idea for talking with my S7 about what is going on and some of the borderline-like behaviors he has been showing lately. Let him play with kinetic sand before and while we talk! I actually ordered different colors for all three kids right away. I think it might make him feel better if it's something we all do, not just him. The kids were very excited about it when I told the after I got back home.

I tried hard to clean the house nicely before she came over and surprisingly, the kiddos actually helped a little! But I had to leave a bunch of unfolded laundry. It was in her now unused bedroom. When I got back, I found that she had folded just my clothes. What is going on? Is she trying to set me up to recycle me? Or is this her way of saying sorry? I'm done with crazy. If we can be good, civil co-parents, then great! But I can't go back to that marriage, where even seemingly kind acts filled me with anxiety because I knew what was coming next. I don't want to be this suspicious, paranoid person anymore.

I have sole custody under the final Protection From Abuse order that was issued Friday, but the order states that is modifiable by the divorce decree. My lawyer said that it is almost guaranteed that she will get joint legal custody. I brought up my specific concern that I don't want our kids' ability to continue therapy to hinge on her consent, and  my lawyer said that we can write into the decree specific things only I can decide, such as therapy.

What a long and strange journey. I'm grateful for having company!

[livednlearned]

Hi fontinalis,

What you experienced with your BPD wife in the marriage will likely exist during and after the divorce.

She will be able to stabilize for short periods of time.

All of us can be on our best behaviors for a stretch, but with BPD, the emotions are so intense they turn her world upside down, and yours and your kids with it.

You can give her props for working so hard to be nice, she is clearly making an attempt (it could be worse!). And then recognize it is one part of the roller coaster, with the next bit not so even and calm.

It sounds like you are split white for now -- the all-good fontinalis. She won in court, things went her way. The next time things don't go her way, you will likely be split black and my guess is that she will settle the score through the kids (parental alienation).

The kinetic sand sounds great, and it's excellent that you have a therapist to help you through this.

You may want to think carefully about other things you know will be a decision-making issue -- similar to what FD was saying. That in the event you two cannot come to agreement, you get tie-breaker status. Or front load the parenting order with things you anticipate will be a problem.

You might also want to be sure to put something in the decree about passports and making it explicit that neither parent can take the kids out of the country without express permission. And even then, be wary... .

[ForeverDad]

She also thinks there's a good chance that my wife will skip the country when she realizes she's not getting any money out of this... .

You might also want to be sure to put something in the decree about passports and making it explicit that neither parent can take the kids out of the country without express permission. And even then, be wary... .

Typically both parents need to agree to international travel.  There are two gotchas:  (1) What if you have joint custody, want to travel and she objects?  Write it into orders that court can grant permission in place of her approval?  (2) Do the children have dual citizenship?  If so then you may have a court order limiting her travel with the kids, placing a notification alert with the US Dept of State and keeping the US passports in safekeeping, but what if she gets passports for the kids from her country?

What you experienced with your BPD wife in the marriage will likely exist during and after the divorce.

She will be able to stabilize for short periods of time.

All of us can be on our best behaviors for a stretch, but with BPD, the emotions are so intense they turn her world upside down, and yours and your kids with it.

Another factor to consider is that the court has set firm boundaries.  She has to abide by them.  She didn't have boundaries with you because she didn't perceive you as having marital or parental authority.  That's the entitlement.  But expect that eventually she will try to push those boundaries.  Even if they're firm boundaries she probably will keep pushing or getting around them  For example, she may ask for additional time for some special occasion, relying on guilting you into agreeing.  Once she gets an exception, she will be emboldened and try again.  And again.  So make sure that any exception is on a case by case basis, that the boundary still stands.  You can be judicious in deciding when to make adjustments, life does happen, but don't be a pushover.  Got that?

[fontinalis]

Thank you everyone for your support and advice!

Her diversion application in the criminal case was rejected! My victim coordinator said that she wasn't taking any responsibility at all for what happened. I suppose I should be ashamed, but this news made me so happy! Someone believes me. This did happen, and it wasn't right. Her friends can victim shame me all they want and she can try her hardest to manipulate me, but the State is going ahead with this! Her next hearing is this Wednesday. We shall see.

[Radcliff]

Thank you everyone for your support and advice!

Her diversion application in the criminal case was rejected! My victim coordinator said that she wasn't taking any responsibility at all for what happened. I suppose I should be ashamed, but this news made me so happy! Someone believes me. This did happen, and it wasn't right. Her friends can victim shame me all they want and she can try her hardest to manipulate me, but the State is going ahead with this! Her next hearing is this Wednesday. We shall see.

fontinalis, don't feel guilty for feeling good about this.  You can in fact look at it as validation that what happened was inappropriate.  Take things as they come, don't feel bad if the criminal case eventually comes to nothing.  In the area of validation, look at it as a "bonus."  Your emotions on this don't seem punitive at all, just focused on the validation of your experience which is totally understandable.

The important thing here is that she is facing the natural consequences of her actions.  This is important because it has a role in accountability, which relevant to her ability to be a responsible parent.

For the kids, you might want to consider, "Transforming the Difficult Child:  The Nurtured Heart Approach."  Don't worry so much about the "difficult" label.  I've found it to be tremendously useful as I adjust to parenting my daughters solo and coping with disrespectful behaviors.

WW

[ForeverDad]

Let me comment on Wentworth's post and how my own experiences turned out.

fontinalis, don't feel guilty for feeling good about this.  You can in fact look at it as validation that what happened was inappropriate.  Take things as they come... .In the area of validation, look at it as a "bonus."  Your emotions on this don't seem punitive at all, just focused on the validation of your experience which is totally understandable.

I agree.  We who stuck by our disordered spouse and tried to make it work are typically Nice Guys and Nice Gals who go the extra mile to be not just fair but overly fair.  The problem, not only that our fairness is not reciprocated, is also that the courts aren't tasked with being 'fair'.  Their laws, case law, polices, procedures were developed over decades and often the court logic doesn't make common sense.  For that reason we who are targets and even the real victims can't afford to overly fair.

... .don't feel bad if the criminal case eventually comes to nothing... .

I recorded my ex making Threats of DV both before and after I called the emergency line and police were on their way.  She postured as the victim and I was almost carted away ("hand prechooler over to mother and step away" but my son shrieked and clung tighter, so he 'saved' me that day.  She later faced Threat of DV charges and in court had to admit she had verbally threatened my life.  However that time she didn't have a weapon in her hands and the judge used that to cite case law in a nearby county (a husband came home drunk and threatened that IF he had a gun he'd shoot her so it wasn't imminent) that deemed such verbal threats as "not imminent" and therefore he declared her Not Guilty.  I wondered to myself if that meant she could continue making "non-imminent" threats without consequence... .

The important thing here is that she is facing the natural consequences of her actions.  This is important because it has a role in accountability, which relevant to her ability to be a responsible parent.

In my case the domestic court magistrate never made reference to her pending case (listed on the paperwork as required) in municipal court.  I felt my lawyer should have at least brought it up but he didn't.  All magistrate did was ask for our work schedules and issued a standard temp order where mother got temp custody and temp majority time.

In contrast, you've had a better start and so be careful not to give up any advantages you may currently have.  To rephrase, don't Gift Away any advantages you rightly have, though of course there will be give and take in negotiations.  Odds are you won't get reciprocity to any generosity you Gift.  It would be an uphill struggle (think Sisyphus) to get them back.

So the negotiation is joint custody and 50/50 time thus far?  If totally equal, then too often the mother is gifted by the court an unwritten default preference in future order adjustments.  Here are two options to help preserve your authority while still being "joint and equal"... .

• Who decides where the children attend school.  Odds are your ex will move more often than you.  (I have had just one residence since we started divorce 12 years ago while my ex has had four residences.)  Maybe they call it Primary Parent.  In my state it is Residential Parent for School Purposes.  It may be an unwritten or non-binding preference, but it sure ought to help lean decisions in your favor.
• Find out whether your court will accept the terms Decision Making or Tie Breaker status.  Since it is often hard to get full or sole custody so neither parent should feel locked out, court will like your settlement sticking with joint.  The benefit of DM or TB is that you're not stuck waiting for months on mediation, a parenting coordinator or the court to resolve an impasse.  With DM or TB then you can ask or inform and then proceed with your decision, it would be up to your ex to file to object afterward.

[fontinalis]

Thank you for the suggestion, Wentworth! They don't have it at my LPL, so I will be ordering it shortly. I want to be a better parent!

She was granted another continuance yesterday until February 21st. I guess that is so she and her lawyer can regroup after the rejection of her diversion application. I was a nervous mess all morning yesterday waiting to find out how her hearing went, but I'm OK now.

I still haven't been sent the final order in the PFA case... .The judge said to begin following the verbal agreement laid out in court, and set another court date tomorrow for if a final order has not been signed by him yet. I haven't heard anything from my attorney since she asked me to review the draft order on Sunday... .I feel like I'm in the dark a lot with this legal process!

[fontinalis]

Hi ForeverDad. My lawyer is confident that I will get "primary residential custody." As it stands right now, she is living with her yoga teacher in a different town, and her visitation is in my house. I need to work on asserting my boundaries with my therapist so that I can do what is best for our kids in the divorce. I need to keep in mind that being a nice guy is not caving in to her manipulation.

Thank you to everyone for suggesting I ask for DM/TB status. I will definitely bring that up with my lawyer the next time we talk.

The DA has assured me they are very confident in their case against her for domestic battery. Of course, there are many possible outcomes though. I wish the legal process didn't take so long, but I know it could be worse. It has only been 2 1/2 months since she was arrested. I am starting to finally feel comfortable in my own home and with my future. As painful as this all was/is, I have learned so much since she has been gone and I hope that will help me to be a better person. The people here have been invaluable to me.

[Radcliff]

fontinalis, I am so glad to hear that now that things have gotten safe the peaceful time is allowing you to do a lot of learning.  I can definitely relate!

Are you comfortable having the visitation in your home or does that make you anxious?  I would be very uncomfortable with my wife visiting in our home.  But your situation may be different, and I know I am able to put up with compromises, and feel OK about it, if it makes the situation feel better for the kids.  I just wanted to ask, and make sure you're in touch with your feelings on this.  Keep in mind, too, that your feelings may change.  Long term, it seems like you might want to work towards another arrangement.

WW