On the weekend my uBPDw (who want's a divorce) had a chat. She wanted to discuss selling the house and telling the kids, however after discussing with people here I derailed the process a little bit. I do not want a divorce and feel that she has not show consistent resolve to achieve the divorce she 'tells' me she so desperately wants. She wrote me a quasi threatening email at the beginning of Dec17 telling me we would be telling the kids on the 6th Jan and putting the house on the market then... .that came and went. She was given instructions and wording for the decree nisi in the first week of Nov17, that has yet to be done.

So, one of the consistent themes of fleeting discussions we have is that she cannot be in a relationship with me any longer as she is scared of me, the kids are scared of me and that they cannot live that way.

Yet again I find myself soul searching to see where this fear has come from and whether or not it is justified. A fear that I actually don't doubt is real for her, at least in the moment. She claims the realisation that she does in fact live in fear was brought to the surface by some dear friends of hers, one buddy armchair psychologist and a man she's had an emotional affair with in her church.

Do I get angry/frustrated on rare occasions? Yes
Have I raged? Yes
Have I hit inanimate objects in the house? Yes (very very infrequently)
Have I smacked the kids bottoms? Yes, with warning (counting) and not hard
Have I scared the children? Yes

The emotional chaos in our relationship has ebbed and flowed from off the charts to always there. I have always found it enormously frustrating unable to work out why I wasn't treated like a normal guy. I had no knowledge of BPD until Apr17 so had endured 19.5yrs of a relationship without any tools or any idea why I was being treated this way. I was treated like a deviant yet I was anything but. I was treated like a lazy person yet was anything but. I was treated as though I was romantically void yet my W was the center of my universe and pretty much all of my actions had her in mind. I was not aware that when I was called an a-hole for going out it was her abandonment fears... .same story, it was all my fault and she has limited scope for self reflection. First couple of years of our marriage were a disaster, huge arguments, very pushy shovey. I recall one occassion where I held her by the shoulders and shouted "why do you treat me like such a XXXX?".

After 2 more recycles we had 3 kids. My wife had very chaotic boundaries/rules with the kids so I felt the need to have firm rules and felt I needed to compensate for my wife's desire to allow the kids to do what they wanted one day and then shout at them and drag me into the triangle the next day. The kids ultimately ignored her or questioned her at every step. I became Victorian Dad I guess in an attempt to salve the stress I could see it caused my W... .I rescued. My approach was strict and domineering. I was the head of the house and I should lead by example and have firm rules which were consistent. This did not go well... .needless to say, I entered as the rescuer and I ALWAYS left as the perpetrator. A combination of Trauma reenactment, emotional memory (I believe that every time I shouted at the kids it took W back to the early days of our marriage, emotional memory has no time stamp and pretty sure it added to her CPTSD from childhood).

So, do I understand (or at least think I can rationalise her fear), yes.

Do I feel guilt or feel that I am abnormal? No. I didn't deal with things well, but I wasn't abusive.
If I had have known what I know now, would I act in the same manner? No. 
Do I react differently and separate my wife's experience from the kids behaviour? Yes

Since my W has ultimately ex communicated me bar a few conversations ala weekend, and when communication moves away from her desired agenda she ultimately runs away, I have no way of imparting this information on her and can just illustrate I have changed my behavior. The crux of the issue is BPD (as far as I believe). Without BPD how do you unlock the reasoning behind the rest of the analysis?

I'm confused (well I'm not really) as well. W tells me she is scared yet she leaves me to look after the kids 5x a week to go out. She allowed me to take them away for the week whilst she went to a Christian conference and she did not stop me taking them on holiday abroad for a week. Is the abuse claim to a huge diversion tactic to play victim and destract attention away from the fact that she's had an affair and now she's writing history in her head in reverse... .feeling = fact.

Oct15 just before her emotional affair started she sent me a random whatsap saying "Just wanted to tell you how much I love you".

Thanks Notwendy,

I agree with you about the children and have spent the last 18 months flipping the relationship on it's head. It was tough to start with as I had to work out what all my triggers were which was difficult when I didn't have the missing piece of the puzzle... .BPD. I started to analyse my behaviour questioning why I was trying to control them. Yes, I was teaching them my values such as tidying up after themselves, being aware of the impact we have on others and having respect for parents, but I also noticed I was trying to reduce chaos for reducing chaos's sake. I would intervene in an irrational argument between my W and kids only to be turned upon by my W.

I was seeing a T every week for 6m and now see him every 3 weeks as a bit of a catch up with specific issues. I love the conversations I have with my kids now, I am open and honest with them. I do not hold them to the illusion that I am flawless or infallible. I try to unravel the ball of string that my W has inadvertently created with her disordered behaviour and try and equip the kids with life skills of smart choices, responsibility and control of their emotions. Our D9 lost it the other day as she does and whilst throwing a strop jumped on the sofa and broke one of the springs. She went into another room and cried. I went and found her and said:
Enable - What's up donkey?
D9 - You and mummy are going to be cross with me about the sofa   
Enabler - How do you know that? Do I look cross to you? Why should I be cross with you?
D9 - No you don't but you should be because I broke the sofa
Enabler - What is done is done, what I'm more concerned with is why it happened? What happened the D9 and how do we stop it happening in future?
D9 - I was angry and I jumped on the sofa. I shouldn't get angry?
Enabler - Being angry is normal, you can't help feeling angry, it's okay. The problem with being too angry is that you do silly things you don't mean to do. This time it was just a spring on the sofa, what if it was something more precious? Maybe you could try and be less angry and tone it down a bit.

I have been able to take a bigger picture, outcome view on things. What do I want to achieve with the girls? I want them to learn how to calm down and have a reasoned discussion. Adding fuel to the fire when they're dysregulated is pointless. I've also been practicing Ju-Jitsu Parenting and my word it works. Sitting on the floor when telling them off, sitting them on the stairs higher up as well, laying down with them to discuss things, giving them my time and attention.

I cannot control my W as you say and I cannot make her see that things would be different if she gave it time. I cannot change the experience she thinks she has had and I can't change the people she chooses to put on her war council. It maybe too late but I will not be retiring to the bar until the judge rubber stamps it. I'm of the opinion that it's never over when theirs kids involved.

How's this for contradiction, I got "you're abusive to me and the kids and you scare us, but can you look after the kids for a week?" Almost within the same sentence!

An issue I'm rapidly identifying is that the children are massively invalidating. As they grow up and get opinions and have awareness of choice the intensity of the invalidation is ramping up. The result is a tinderbox of childish emotions firing off at each other.

I'm finding it empowering to be able to read what is going on better and defuse situations, but at the same time my W must find this confusing as I'm no longer playing to the rules or playing to her narrative. I'm not looking forward to the next chapter of the game!

people with BPD are scared of almost everyone, why are you surprised she trusts you with the children exactly

its win win for her if it is proven true.

They don't have to square the circle, be very careful though , if your partner dysregulates it could become very harmful to you and the kids avoid arguing with your partner if at all possible, state what you believe once and leave it at that , she may scream at you but stay cool and do not respond if at all possible , you are walking on quicksand and this, as it is, is my best advice from sitting here, please take some precautionary measures for if things go badly, but needless to say, your p if she finds out, will take them in the worse possible light.

Your P will also be looking for signs that you are trying to turn the kids against her, though it will appear a very haphazard approach, they often move with no clear direction until there mind is set ,

I wish you the best , be careful.

  

Enabler,


I would think a good response we she talks about "your" relationship with God is to ask her if she would like to listen...

or

"Would you like me to share about my relationship with God?"

if she says yes... .

Schedule a time for a week later.

if she asks why the delay...

"I need to spend time in deep prayer and reflection to help guide my words.  It seems obvious my previous words have been misunderstood"

You are not "directly" confronting how presumptuous this is to "tell" someone about their relationships... but the point is being made.   And she is being denied "what she wants".

FF

I'm so sorry that you and your Dad (entire family) went through that.  How old was your Dad?

You've asked the question that I and many others asked.  "Why God?"  "Why did this happen?"

Personally, I think the process of asking why, of being angry with God and not listening for a while, then asking why and perhaps listening... .perhaps just understanding that there are some things in life that are just too heavy to carry.

I mean... .there just aren't explanations sometimes.  And all those people out there (we know they are out there)... that claim you can only praise God and be happy... .well... .that's just bunk.

If anyone can take anger... .if anyone can deal with someone screaming "how could you... ."... .if anyone can wait around for someone who has walked away... .that would be God. 

Honestly, there is anger in me towards God.  I'm glad he is in my life and I can talk to... .express that anger without worrying about SET... or rules... or timing... .or eggshells.  Somehow it helps things get all sorted out.

Hang in there my friend.  I would ask that you listen far... .far less to you wife about God.  Perhaps take a walk and look for that rainbow.  Perhaps just some alone time with a hot cup of coffee.  At some point start listening to God again, or even start out with a one way conversation... .get some stuff off your chest.

   

FF

I hear much the same noise from my wife.  Perhaps a bit more difficult because on some things she is completely reasonable and "spot on" with her reading of scripture.   I get the impression that your wife is kinda always stuck on "her version".  Right?

I've not watched "The Shack" and only know the most general outline of it, so best I skip any comment.  I'm glad you found it meaningful.

I'm going to say though... .(in case you missed it)... .the point is there is no answer to the question.

I'm also not a fan of people that use Romans 8:28 in a trite and insensitive way.  We all intellectually understand that life is about maturing us and so it's not "inaccurate" to say that God uses everything in our lives, the good and the bad, to help mature is (for our good).  Yet we (most of us) understand that doesn't give any comfort whatsoever to someone grieving, especially when it is a fresh loss.

Permit me to back away from God and share an example that is personal to me, yet likely less personal to you.

I've spent years of my life afloat in the middle (and all other parts) of the ocean.  From horizon to horizon, water is all that you can see.  There are some days it is so beautiful, peaceful... .on other days it is stark and unforgiving.

I've often wondered how something so beautiful sometimes comes with such a price.  I've asked why... .  The hours I have spent looking out and considering the ocean as cruel because it swallowed up my friends... .never to be seen again.  Yet... .while watching the sun go down at night, that same ocean will bend the light in a way to inspire the saddest of hearts. 

I can't explain how those two things go together and are true.  Somehow that gives me comfort. 

FF

Unfortunately... .your wife's "view" of religion is far too common.

I would let her sort that out for herself... .

Whatever you can do in order to limit religious "debates" is likely good. 

If you get to a good and solid place where YOU can do this without being triggered... .then perhaps asking her to show you or "join you" in reading about edification would perhaps be meaningful.

Any debate of "yes it is... .no it isn't" will play to her BPD strengths... .avoid that.

Hang in there man... .you have a lot on your plate... .

FF

It’s sad, I read other women’s accounts of behaviour that is clearly abusive such as 5xFive’s account of her husband raging at her and following her around the house and I see myself... .or at least times when I HAVE been like that.

I have been so desperate to correct the narrative to some semblance of normality that I have almost baited my wife into accepting it. I’ve been so frustrated in the past hearing her wild accusations, her suggestions that I’m rotten or her inability to just be damn reasonable that I felt compelled to go on until she accepted it. I guess it’s the definition of insanity when you repeat the same action time after time resulting in the same negative outcome but I guess I was just so blissfully unaware that the mind could work in this way that I thought I could change her mind! I know it must have been frightening for her on the rare occasions I perused her around the house begging her to not treat me this way!

Arggggggg... .the response to stop abuse is in itself abusive. Oh to have known about BPD 20yrs ago!

So... .where crazy stories stop and paranoia begins is unclear and something we should not put much effort into.

In my relationship paranoia is pretty much gone with a disciplined removal of invalidation.

For reference, my wife "knew" where my baby lived and had this big story about how I would "sneak" back from my military trips... .have romper room time with various women and then she would pick me up at airport after they dropped me off.  All of the papers on that day were part of an elaborate ruse to confuse my wife and keep my harem a secret.

"Correcting the narrative was something I used to do and essentially each time I would do it, the "paranoia monster" got bigger.

"Correcting the narrative" is almost always invalidating.  I struggle to think of when it would NOT be invalidating... .

Instead of "working on her"... ."work on yourself"... .convince yourself that you will let her believe what she believes and it won't affect YOUR BELIEFS... .at all.

Last:  I used to chase around paranoid claims and expend great amounts of energy... .my wife's ability to "POOF" to a new reality frustrated me to no end.

I had a paternity test center ready to go.  I was going to test myself, test one of my kids (to validate the test), and then get this baby tested (to get me off the hook).

POOF... .

"Ok then... .but you still had sex with her... ."

Remember... .crazy will protect itself.  When she "knew" the theory would be disproved... .POOF... it never happened and went to another theory that I would have to "solve" for my wife.

Stop solving...

FF

Good!   

It's not time to celebrate and get a Tat... it's time to start planning the next step of where you fit into your "dance" with BPD.

1.  Not correcting is a start
2.  Perhaps label the next step "listening appropriately".   I'm still struggling to label this step appropriately because "not listening" is really not accurate.  I mean... .who wants to be ignored.  We know they are trying to dysfunctionally express something that means a great deal to them. 

Somehow in step to their is a friendly ear, mild concern... .an offer to reflect back and make sure there is proper understanding... .an offer to understand if this is new concern or if there is new information... .and then somehow move forward to ask "what specifically do you want me to understand about this? "  (keep handing responsibility back to them)

I get it chances of your wife getting all the way through that (at this point) is zero.  As always, boundaries apply and when she flips out... .you leave (boundaries will always take precedence).

Over time she will likely get farther and farther into the real story or figure out you don't meet her needs and the story goes away.

Either way... you declare victory and move on.

Thoughts?

FF

I hear you on this. One of my issues when I realized that I would have to entirely change my style of relating/responding to my husband was that I felt a lot of anger. Why me? Why do I have to work so hard while he just can whimsically act out whenever he wants? Well, we know the answer to that. I don't have the personality disorder, he does. Someone has to be the adult in the room. Sigh... .

So after I got over that issue about the "unfairness" and started becoming more strategic with using the tools, I thought, "Well, things are much more peaceful and on track. I can see when the train is rapidly veering around the corner and about to go off the rails, and I can gently pull the emergency brake and start carefully steering it back on track. Whew!"

Then I started thinking, "Wow, in a lot of ways, this truly isn't an authentic relationship because I have information about him that I'm not sharing and strategies I'm consciously applying due to what I know about him. If I were in an authentic relationship, we'd be on equal footing and I wouldn't be having these "meta" analyses of what's going on and how to respond to it."

The next phase has been that lots of these tools that I've struggled to learn and apply are starting to become second nature. I'm applying them in my relationships with friends and acquaintances, and just about everyone I interact with. So, what was originally foreign to my self concept is becoming a part of me and it's improving all of my interactions with others.

So how this applies to my relationship with my husband: things are much smoother and happier between us. When things start going south, I can usually nip it in the bud, or exit gracefully and give him time to "reset". Because I've worked past the resentment, I can be authentically more open and warm to him and that is nurturing our relationship.

I had to take some distance to repair and reset my own knee-jerk responses. Now that there's more warmth between us, there's also more tolerance on his part for me to mis-speak and say something that might hurt his feelings. Of course I avoid that as much as possible, but you know, BPD--it's hard to always understand what might be a wound or a trigger.

In sum, I'm getting to the place where I don't have to be as hyper vigilant with my own word choice and he's becoming more open and tolerant as a result of our relationship being easier and more fun.

Not trying to hijack, just a quick question for Cat... .how long do you think it took before your husband came around to some of this warmth?  After I started setting boundaries and using the tools, my uBPDw went through a bit of an extinction burst because to her it seemed like I was ending the relationship that she knew and was familiar with... .  now I find myself less volatile, less knee-jerk, and very much more open and compassionate.  My wife seems to hate it still and even turns it back on to me that I'm only being nice now because I've realized how awful and demented I am and that no one else would want me, and now that I realize those things about me her wanting a divorce should all of a sudden "make sense"... .  I'm not sure if there is any way to get through to her anymore.

Enabler I too am confused on the push/pull dynamic of the divorce threat... .  I hate you, you suck, this is intolerable (push), but they have no other way of showing they are hurt and really are hoping for us to make a change to make things better (pull).
I find the confusion I feel over this "divorce threat" really gets me stuck.  I try to prepare for the worst, but find I am also reluctant to attempt to achieve whatever "goal" she has in mind to make things better... .  Do you feel like your just going around in circles?  I know I'm getting dizzy.

Yes and no, there is a glacial direction of travel in our divorce  and some things have been “done” by her to achieve a few divorce like objectives, so it certainly feels like a divorce even though the commitment to the cause is not consistent or intelligent.

I have not sort to achieve any of her divorce aspirations other than agree to attend meetings where my best interests require it, do work on the house where mine and my kids best interests denote it or avoid confrontation where my police history denotes it (I don’t have a police record and my job requires I don’t so it is imperative I avoid false accusations).

Where I did achieve goals for her was that I spent a long time begging, sending her emails explaining how I thought our relationship was xyz, I pushed for marriage counselling (disaster unless you’re totally on top of BPD and not in the dark as I was). I spent a lot of time looking to solve the “problem” in me rather than changing me to cope/accept/love alongside/rationalise with the problems in her.

So now I spend a lot of time making sure I don’t make things worse... .and I suppose emotional caretaking but hopefully effectively... .I’m yet to see the positive effects so far other than in my own contentment.