Need to get something off my chest...

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I’ve been going back and forth for some time now about starting this thread.  It’s been a while since posting here.  I’m still in therapy, and some days I am still my old angry self, but I’m also spending a lot of time looking ahead of me instead of behind.  I am getting out there and meeting new people, and I’m now giving a lot of thought to myself and what I need to change, one of these things being my failure to speak out and express myself at times when I should.  That brings me to this thread.  I had some negative experiences on this forum.  I ‘ve discussed this with my T, but I’ve decided that the time has come for me to openly address this here.  All of us at this forum play a dual role.  We all came here seeking advice, guidance, and emotional support.  But we also offer those things as well.  It’s a two-way street, and I think this comes with a certain responsibility.  If we are going to offer advice, we should also be willing to listen, and we should never assume that we know more about another’s story/feelings/thoughts than they do.  I don’t know if others have had experiences like that here, but my time on this forum was mostly excruciating and left me in an even more stressed out state than I was in before I came here, mainly because of two members who couldn’t seem to provide feedback without overstepping bounds, and I couldn’t leave this place without saying something. 

Here are some specific examples of what I’m talking about.  These are instances of what my T calls “writing a script.”  Is it me, or are these comments very presumptuous and disrespectful?

Let's be honest here and call this desire/urge by its proper name ... .revenge.

“Let’s be honest” was a favorite phrase of these members.  I can’t help but be insulted by it because, to me, “lets be honest” implies that I wasn’t already being honest.  Some of you here know my story, and some of you may not.  I did something very bad.  I was a college professor, and I had an affair with a student.  To make it even worse, she was married.  It later came back to bite me when the husband called the school and I was fired.  Even on an anonymous message board, it wasn’t easy for me to confess to this.  It took me a long time to get up the nerve to share my story here, and I was proud of myself when that day finally came.  So it’s hard for me to hear someone accuse me of dishonesty. 

The above quote also illustrates these member’s tendency to tell me how I feel.  It is not our place to psychoanalyze others here.  We all have our own stories, and I think we should take for granted that other people know their own stories, and feelings, much better than we, who are, at the end of the day, strangers on a message board.  There is no bigger authority on your emotions than you, know matter how “obvious” they may be to others.  Imagine that you are a doctor who is giving medical advice to a lay person, and the lay person responds to your expert advice with “Lets be honest…” and then proceeds to disagree with you.  Insulting isn’t it?  No one gets to tell you how you feel.

These members were adamant that my need to contact the husband and come clean about the affair was fueled by a desire to get revenge against him.  It was so much more complicated than that.  These members had a tendency to simplify my experience and feelings to the point where it was hard for me to identify with anything they were posting.  I didn’t want revenge.  I wanted justice.  My ex misled me.  I was kept in the dark about her home life, while he got to conveniently lash out at me for “pursuing” his wife.  There is a good reason why she didn’t tell him how far things had gone between she and I.  Her marriage was something to fall back on in the event that things didn’t work out with me, even if I had to lose everything in the process.  I was someone’s door matt.  I felt used.   Why was it so hard for these members to understand why I would want her to answer for that? 

Here’s another one…

So lets be honest.  He did take something from you but it wasn't your job ... .it was her.  What you have written over the months has clearly shown me that you are completely stuck on the fact that he took her away from you and you want to make him pay for it.

If I am going to be honest, like this poster requested of me, then I cannot agree with his assessment. This wasn’t about him “taking her” from me.  I didn’t feel any anger toward my ex’s husband prior to him calling the school. Only after. I had reached a place of acceptance. I was actually looking forward to never seeing her again. I was moving on.  That job was the only bright thing in my life. I told myself that I could forget by burying myself in my work, and he went out of his way to make sure I couldn’t do that. I had every right to be angry about that. The poster that I quoted above insisted on seeing my being fired and he “taking” her from me as synonymous events.  Those events did not occur simultaneously.  Even after explaining this to these members several times, they continued to make comments like the one above, as if they didn’t even bother to read was I was posting.
       

I understand how hard it is to let go of the dream of a future with her.  There was once a time when it all looked so promising and the way she made you feel so wanted, needed, special and loved is something we are all too familiar with.  You miss this, you wanted to be the person to walk away holding hands and it is tearing you apart that it isn't you ... .even if you don't want to admit that to yourself.

When I first came here and shared my story, it had been six months sense I ended contact with my ex.  She brought nothing but pain and misery to my life, and I ended communication with her because I finally saw a pattern and realized that destruction is all she is capable of offering me, or to anyone else.  I didn’t need anyone here to help me see that.  I had already cut her out of my life before coming here.  I wouldn’t trade places with her husband for anything, and I’m offended that someone could suggest that that is what I wanted.  Deep down, I honestly believe that, had I remained in contact with her, it would have eventually led to a recycle.  But this was not what I wanted.  What I wanted was to never see her again.  If I wanted a future with her, remaining in contact would have been my best option.  But she hurt me too badly.  The statement quoted above was made to me after a year and a half of NC, despite several attempts by my ex at communication.  I am very proud of this, yet these members tried very hard make this whole thing about me being angry with her for deserting me, or with the husband for “taking” her from me.  I have expressed a lot of anger here.  I don’t deny that, but it simply wasn’t coming from the place that these members tried to convince me of.  Ironically, my desire to contact the husband is being fueled by the same thing that is motivating me to post this, a desire to be heard.  These two members seemed to see denial and rationalization in everything that I posted, and they took it upon themselves to “enlighten” me to the truth.  But the truth is that I already had a good handle on what I was feeling and why I was feeling it.  I just needed someone to listen.  I think that’s a big part of what drew us all here.  We needed to be heard.  I don’t feel that I ever got that.  I know I deserved to lose my job, but what about being heard?  Was I not even deserving of that?  Many people I shared my story with, for example, wanted to credit the husband for ending contact between she and I.  But it wasn’t him.  I did that. Me.  Why am I not deserving of any acknowledgment of that?  It’s just frustrating to have to constantly remind people of very simple facts about my story because they’ve already written their own script in their heads of what happened.  I came here because I thought this was one place where I might actually be heard.  Instead I encountered two members who were insistent on rewriting my story for me without actually listening to anything I had to say, and then had the audacity to disagree with me when I tried to correct them on this or that point.  I didn’t deserve that.  They seemed more interested in adding to my story than actually listening to me, and any attempt to correct them was seen as denial on my part.  Maybe these members were trying to help me in their own misguided way, but no amount of advice is helpful if it is based on false premises.  I couldn’t make them understand that, and maybe that is partially my fault.  I tried to be as polite as I could be when asserting my own thoughts and clarifications, but now I’m just going to say what I was actually thinking at the time.  These two members were way of line and disrespectful.  Their condescending remarks and attempts at psychoanalysis were enough to make me regret ever sharing my story here.  I don’t know if these members still visit this forum.  If so, I hope they can take something away from this and learn to take what others say about their own life experiences and feelings at face value without putting their own personal spin on it, but I wouldn’t be a bit surprised if they take this post as further evidence of my denial of their “obvious” truths. 

I hope this post didn't come across as inflammatory.  That wasn't my intention.  I just needed to get this off my chest. I sincerely wish all of you here the best in your recovery, and hope that you have a more positive experience here than I did. 

[Nuitari]

I’ve been going back and forth for some time now about starting this thread.  It’s been a while since posting here.  I’m still in therapy, and some days I am still my old angry self, but I’m also spending a lot of time looking ahead of me instead of behind.  I am getting out there and meeting new people, and I’m now giving a lot of thought to myself and what I need to change, one of these things being my failure to speak out and express myself at times when I should.  That brings me to this thread.  I had some negative experiences on this forum.  I ‘ve discussed this with my T, but I’ve decided that the time has come for me to openly address this here.  All of us at this forum play a dual role.  We all came here seeking advice, guidance, and emotional support.  But we also offer those things as well.  It’s a two-way street, and I think this comes with a certain responsibility.  If we are going to offer advice, we should also be willing to listen, and we should never assume that we know more about another’s story/feelings/thoughts than they do.  I don’t know if others have had experiences like that here, but my time on this forum was mostly excruciating and left me in an even more stressed out state than I was in before I came here, mainly because of two members who couldn’t seem to provide feedback without overstepping bounds, and I couldn’t leave this place without saying something. 

Here are some specific examples of what I’m talking about.  These are instances of what my T calls “writing a script.”  Is it me, or are these comments very presumptuous and disrespectful?

Let's be honest here and call this desire/urge by its proper name ... .revenge.

“Let’s be honest” was a favorite phrase of these members.  I can’t help but be insulted by it because, to me, “lets be honest” implies that I wasn’t already being honest.  Some of you here know my story, and some of you may not.  I did something very bad.  I was a college professor, and I had an affair with a student.  To make it even worse, she was married.  It later came back to bite me when the husband called the school and I was fired.  Even on an anonymous message board, it wasn’t easy for me to confess to this.  It took me a long time to get up the nerve to share my story here, and I was proud of myself when that day finally came.  So it’s hard for me to hear someone accuse me of dishonesty. 

The above quote also illustrates these member’s tendency to tell me how I feel.  It is not our place to psychoanalyze others here.  We all have our own stories, and I think we should take for granted that other people know their own stories, and feelings, much better than we, who are, at the end of the day, strangers on a message board.  There is no bigger authority on your emotions than you, know matter how “obvious” they may be to others.  Imagine that you are a doctor who is giving medical advice to a lay person, and the lay person responds to your expert advice with “Lets be honest…” and then proceeds to disagree with you.  Insulting isn’t it?  No one gets to tell you how you feel.

These members were adamant that my need to contact the husband and come clean about the affair was fueled by a desire to get revenge against him.  It was so much more complicated than that.  These members had a tendency to simplify my experience and feelings to the point where it was hard for me to identify with anything they were posting.  I didn’t want revenge.  I wanted justice.  My ex misled me.  I was kept in the dark about her home life, while he got to conveniently lash out at me for “pursuing” his wife.  There is a good reason why she didn’t tell him how far things had gone between she and I.  Her marriage was something to fall back on in the event that things didn’t work out with me, even if I had to lose everything in the process.  I was someone’s door matt.  I felt used.   Why was it so hard for these members to understand why I would want her to answer for that? 

Here’s another one…

So lets be honest.  He did take something from you but it wasn't your job ... .it was her.  What you have written over the months has clearly shown me that you are completely stuck on the fact that he took her away from you and you want to make him pay for it.

If I am going to be honest, like this poster requested of me, then I cannot agree with his assessment. This wasn’t about him “taking her” from me.  I didn’t feel any anger toward my ex’s husband prior to him calling the school. Only after. I had reached a place of acceptance. I was actually looking forward to never seeing her again. I was moving on.  That job was the only bright thing in my life. I told myself that I could forget by burying myself in my work, and he went out of his way to make sure I couldn’t do that. I had every right to be angry about that. The poster that I quoted above insisted on seeing my being fired and he “taking” her from me as synonymous events.  Those events did not occur simultaneously.  Even after explaining this to these members several times, they continued to make comments like the one above, as if they didn’t even bother to read was I was posting.
       

I understand how hard it is to let go of the dream of a future with her.  There was once a time when it all looked so promising and the way she made you feel so wanted, needed, special and loved is something we are all too familiar with.  You miss this, you wanted to be the person to walk away holding hands and it is tearing you apart that it isn't you ... .even if you don't want to admit that to yourself.

When I first came here and shared my story, it had been six months sense I ended contact with my ex.  She brought nothing but pain and misery to my life, and I ended communication with her because I finally saw a pattern and realized that destruction is all she is capable of offering me, or to anyone else.  I didn’t need anyone here to help me see that.  I had already cut her out of my life before coming here.  I wouldn’t trade places with her husband for anything, and I’m offended that someone could suggest that that is what I wanted.  Deep down, I honestly believe that, had I remained in contact with her, it would have eventually led to a recycle.  But this was not what I wanted.  What I wanted was to never see her again.  If I wanted a future with her, remaining in contact would have been my best option.  But she hurt me too badly.  The statement quoted above was made to me after a year and a half of NC, despite several attempts by my ex at communication.  I am very proud of this, yet these members tried very hard make this whole thing about me being angry with her for deserting me, or with the husband for “taking” her from me.  I have expressed a lot of anger here.  I don’t deny that, but it simply wasn’t coming from the place that these members tried to convince me of.  Ironically, my desire to contact the husband is being fueled by the same thing that is motivating me to post this, a desire to be heard.  These two members seemed to see denial and rationalization in everything that I posted, and they took it upon themselves to “enlighten” me to the truth.  But the truth is that I already had a good handle on what I was feeling and why I was feeling it.  I just needed someone to listen.  I think that’s a big part of what drew us all here.  We needed to be heard.  I don’t feel that I ever got that.  I know I deserved to lose my job, but what about being heard?  Was I not even deserving of that?  Many people I shared my story with, for example, wanted to credit the husband for ending contact between she and I.  But it wasn’t him.  I did that. Me.  Why am I not deserving of any acknowledgment of that?  It’s just frustrating to have to constantly remind people of very simple facts about my story because they’ve already written their own script in their heads of what happened.  I came here because I thought this was one place where I might actually be heard.  Instead I encountered two members who were insistent on rewriting my story for me without actually listening to anything I had to say, and then had the audacity to disagree with me when I tried to correct them on this or that point.  I didn’t deserve that.  They seemed more interested in adding to my story than actually listening to me, and any attempt to correct them was seen as denial on my part.  Maybe these members were trying to help me in their own misguided way, but no amount of advice is helpful if it is based on false premises.  I couldn’t make them understand that, and maybe that is partially my fault.  I tried to be as polite as I could be when asserting my own thoughts and clarifications, but now I’m just going to say what I was actually thinking at the time.  These two members were way of line and disrespectful.  Their condescending remarks and attempts at psychoanalysis were enough to make me regret ever sharing my story here.  I don’t know if these members still visit this forum.  If so, I hope they can take something away from this and learn to take what others say about their own life experiences and feelings at face value without putting their own personal spin on it, but I wouldn’t be a bit surprised if they take this post as further evidence of my denial of their “obvious” truths. 

I hope this post didn't come across as inflammatory.  That wasn't my intention.  I just needed to get this off my chest. I sincerely wish all of you here the best in your recovery, and hope that you have a more positive experience here than I did. 

[babyducks]

Hi Nuitari

I understand your point of view.   I can absolutely see why this would have been very hurtful for you.  Being invalidated is painful.

I really like this about what you posted.   

All of us at this forum play a dual role.  We all came here seeking advice, guidance, and emotional support.  But we also offer those things as well.  It’s a two-way street, and I think this comes with a certain responsibility.

'ducks

[Bushido]

... .And then life goes on.

[Skip]

I am not at a computer or able to respond at this time, but I wanted to share this link so that everyone has the backstory and perspective on this.
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=290689.0;all

Also, the first quote you mention is on bpdfamily here (so it can been seen in context):

Let's be honest here and call this desire/urge by its proper name ... .revenge.

IT can't locate the second and third quote - can you confirm that these are public comments on this site. It will be helpful to locate them in context.

I think this will be a worthwhile discussion. You make several very good points.

[Nuitari]

Yes, those are public comments.  Both of those came from the thread entitled "My Journey With therapy II."  While searching for those, I came across another that I'd like to share.  This is from the same thread... .

... .but you continue to use the loss of the job to mask the real reason you want to make him pay.

Is it me or are comments like this one bordering on arrogance?  He is speaking as if he knows for a fact the "real reason why I want to make him pay."  I am a stranger on a message board, and my posts here are the only window into my story that he has.  Given that, how can he speak of my inner desires and motivations with such confidence, and continue to do so after I correct him?  Why was it so hard for him to believe that I might know more about my story and feelings than he did?  Why didn't I deserve the benefit of the doubt?

[EdR]

Hi Nuitari,

I can somewhat relate, but to be honest (yes... .I am using this phrase as well here, but NOT in the way you seem to have interpreted it; it's just a way to indicate that I am about to say something which might not be the most popular thing to say, but I am saying it with the best intentions) I don't think this quote by the member C.Stein was inappropiate in any way.

I read the thread provided by Skip untill this particular quote and from my perspective C. Stein was doing his very best to support you. You were NOT met by any judgment regarding this affair and C. Stein in particular really seemed to show empathy.

I do feel you might be on to something regarding some of the replies I see sometimes, but in this particular case I feel C. Stein was helping you to the best of his ability.

[Nuitari]

I didn't mean to imply that I thought I was being judged.  I didn't get that impression from him either.  But he and I clearly weren't on the same page regarding a lot of things, and he didn't seem to have an interest on being on the same page with me. That's what was so frustrating. His "let's be honest" comments do imply a dishonesty on my part, and reflect a high confidence in his own view of my situation. How else am I supposed to take that?

[Sunfl0wer]

Personally am not going to read motivations or meaning into statements here to judge who is being helpful or other such.

Why would I?
Who does this help?

We all have our own version of reality.  
We are all imperfect.  We are at varying levels of healing, knowledge, understanding, insight, etc. 

Kinda makes it neat to have online discussions where there is a sharing of perspectives, no?

Where is the meaning in all this?

[Nuitari]

I'm trying to get better at addressing things like this when they happen.  Only in hindsight do I see what I should have done or should have said, something that would have come naturally to someone else.  Its one of the things I'm trying to improve on.  I know it must look silly that I'm only just now addressing this issue, but it has never stopped bothering me and only now can I look back and see how I should have addressed it, and it was important to me that I still do that. Given that those exchanges only fueled my anger and the many problems I was going through at the time, I think it is something worth addressing, and I figured better late than never.

[Sunfl0wer]

I'm trying to get better at addressing things like this when they happen.

When you say “like this”
I am unclear what you are trying to get better at addressing?

[Nuitari]

Things like misunderstandings and clarifications.  It is my hope in starting this thread that I was able communicate something that I couldn't at the time of those exchanges, such as how hurtful some of those comments were.

[Sunfl0wer]

Ah, ok, thanks for helping me understand.  

What about just taking what is useful, leaving what is not?

People are going to have their understanding of stuff that will not match yours.  Can you be ok with that?  Can you leave them to their feelings and just allow yourself to experience RA? (Radical acceptance that other people get to have a different understanding)

For example... .

Given that those exchanges only fueled my anger and the many problems I was going through at the time, I think it is something worth addressing, and I figured better late than never.

I see the above as a possible lesson in boundaries.
We cannot control others, just ourself.
So, we cannot control others perception of stuff.
Yet we can own our feelings of anger or own our feelings of hurt.

What do you think about focusing on boundaries?

I learned here at FTF, about boundaries.  Someone used a bucket analogy on me.  Told me that my feelings and thoughts are in my bucket, I am in charge of them.  The other persons feelings and thoughts are in their bucket, they are in charge of that.  Our job is to tend to only our bucket and not get confused over what goes in wich bucket.

I imagine that there will be more encounters in life where others are not having a shared perception with us, and maybe even having an opposing perception.  
Often JADE does not help amieliorate this discrepancy.
Often an attempt at futher JADE can lead us to feeling frustrated.
Hence, RA is important to revisit.
RA can allow us to feel ok when we must accept that others may not see things the way we do.

We cannot stop misunderstandings from occuring, they occur.  
We also cannot ensure others share our perspective, they get to choose that... .that is their bucket to hold.
Yet we can deal with our responses to things, our feelings of anger, our feelings oof hurt.  
We also get to decide how to respond to stuff or not to.

I wonder if you can pick out anything useful from this for yourself?

[Nuitari]

Nice post Sunflower.

I do understand that people have different views.  What gets under my skin is when people will take their own personal views as fact, as if they can't tell the difference. Consider this following quote from EdR... .

I don't think this quote by the member C.Stein was inappropiate in any way.

Suppose I replied to this comment by saying "Lets be honest. You actually do think C.Stein's comment was inappropiate. You just don't want to admit it." That to me is called being a jerk.  I'm trying to decided for him what his inner perceptions are.  That's not OK.  No one gets to do that.  If I had said that to EdR, I wouldn't blame him one bit if he felt belittled and invalidated.  People can have other views, but people also need to be conscientious of how they voice them, especially in a place like this where we are all trying to help and advise each other.  We need to give people the benefit of the doubt that they know there own feelings.

[Sunfl0wer]

People can have other views, but people also need to be conscientious of how they voice them, especially in a place like this where we are all trying to help and advise each other.  We need to give people the benefit of the doubt that they know there own feelings.

I find something about your post triggering to me.  Not in a bad way.  In an interesting one.

I am not sure what is ok to speak sometimes.  So I often assume less is better in times of uncertainty.

However, I am going to venture and be a bit less inhibited than usual.  I guess someone will moderate me if need be, hopefully though my tone of respect is heard.

See that little apostrophe or what have you, right under my name?  My guess is it means that I am a member to keep eyes on by staff.  I am not sure exactly, but I do know I do not have “full privileges” around here because of my thinking that “someone” “should” behave the way “I” see is most ethical.  (And some other stuff... .that followed those thoughts.)

Well guess what?
I had to come to terms with that.
I was actually three days ago expressing the situation to a friend who kinda was laughing at me in a playful way.  (Odd cause idk why this came up cause I never have spoken about it, so it is odd to be mentioning it at all) He challenged me.  Soo... .you want “someone” to behave “this way” and you feel that is the “right way” to do things?

Heck yes!  Lol!  
I feel I am “right!”  So why NOT have anyone see how “right” I am?
Well here is why:  Being right does shiz to relationships.  It doesn’t help!

So you feel that people shouldn’t speak a certain way to you, guess what: RA = it doesn’t matter/ accept that people will not agree with your perspective in talking a certain way to you (yes, here at this site, other places in life, etc.)
RA = we cannot force people to be who is best for us to cope with.
RA = we cannot force people to speak in the most helpful way to us.

Ok... .
So where does that leave me?

I am a person wishing other people would behave differently as their decisions and behaviors don’t jive with me.
Again...
Where does that leave ME?
I am left:  :)isappointed! And pissed
RA = my pissed, is MY problem

So to my friend... .
I seriously sound controlling!
That is like the last thing I want to appear like!  

So what can I control?
-I can use the site the way it is (aka RA)
-I can choose to pick up what is useful and leave what is not.
-I can look at myself, why the heck do I care? What does that say about me that I need to look into to gain inner peace?
-I can go elsewhere to see if my desires will be met differently

RA: I cannot control other peoples perceptions/beliefs

I am genuinely expressing this all in effort to be helpful
Yet
I cannot moderate other members
Nor do I feel that solves anything in this situation anyways
So what is the result?

The only thing I can see to do to offer my support
Is suggest you consider using the site, the members, etc... .
-With an attitude of gratitude.
-leave what you don’t like
-use what you like

Think RA!
Think boundaries
Just as you are responsible for your feelings
Others are responsible for theirs.
It is not my job to convince anyone your story, my story, etc

Have you read about JADE? Do you understand the tools can help you interact with anyone? Even this site?

If somethings works... .go ahead, use it!

What you do with that which doesn’t work for you tho man, reconsider... .
Do you want to leave it?
If not, why? How can you work on YOU?

[babyducks]

Nuitari

I read the thread provided by Skip.   I did not take the comments in the thread to be insulting or antagonistic.   I read it as a group of people having a vigorous conversation about an emotionally fraught and difficult topic.

I've been involved in a lot of threads here.   My opinion is, in this medium where there is no tone of voice,  no facial expression,  no body English to give clues, it is both easy to convey a message not intended and receive a message not intended.    That's the down side.    The plus side is it is easy to speak freely here because we are anonymous behind our computer screens.

I am sure I have written things that have offended people without meaning too.    And I have been in threads where I have been upset by what I have read.    I particularly remember a thread from about six months ago that derailed rather badly.     The conversation turned pretty quickly into sparring.     The topic was on CPTSD,  which is rather my sore toe at the moment; so I very disturbed by what I read.

And I couldn't be more in agreement with Sunfl0wer.   It my job to take care of my feelings.   It's my job  to take what was valuable out of that thread.    It was my job to walk away when things got to heated for my comfort.

Since I just read your previous thread and then came back to this one, I couldn't help but notice the similarities.     In your first thread, you indicated how unfair it was to have your Ex's Husband ascribe motives and intentions to you.    To misread the situation to his own benefit.    To interpret you emotions in a way that fits his narrative.     You mentioned that :

But I was honestly trying to do the right thing, and I just need some kind of acknowledgment of it.  I just need someone to understand.  The husband actually called me "manipulative" and accused me of trying to ruin his life!  Nothing could be further from the truth.  Some days I am so angry that I just want to call him to get revenge.  Other days, I just want him to understand.

In this thread I am reading echos of that not being heard,   not being understood, and having your methods, motives and intentions misinterpretted.

and in this thread you again seem to want to go back and set the record straight.   on the whole I think I understand the urge but I would suggest it's not serving you well.    I agree with Sunflower.    When I want "someone" to behave the way I "think" they should I am typically shooting myself in the foot.    those kinds of rigid judgements poison my own well.

the thought occurs to me that we are all here on a website talking about poor mental health, and none of us got here by accident.    I am going to guess if we were all paragons of mental health, charity and virtue we wouldn't actually be here.    which is a fancy way of saying I take what I read here with a grain of salt.

I often sign my posts... .'my two cents'... .because that is all it is... .


my two cents
'ducks

[Nuitari]

Sunfl0wer and babyducks,

Thank you both for your posts. They were very helpful.  I can agree with everything said.  I can see the benefits of RA in theory.  Its just hard for me to put in into practice.  If you knew me personally, you'd see that I have a hard time letting things go, and at some point I relapse and fall back into those same mental loops.  Its a sickness with me I guess.  I've been reflecting a lot on the time I spent on this forum, and how so many exchanges somehow turned into debates, where a burden was placed on me to convince others of this and that as opposed to just taking what I say at face value. When I think of those exchanges, and some of the comments made, even now those memories will reignite the anger and frustration I felt at the time.  But you are both right.  Its my problem.  Its just frustrating never being able to express yourself.  Only now, in this thread, can I state so eloquently what was bothering me at the time.  Why couldn't I do so then?  Its always the same story with me.

[Skip]

Hi Nuitari,

I think its good that you expressed yourself here and I hope you will continue to work on your recovery here. We are all here to support you; walk with you on this challenging journey.

You ask a couple of good questions.

1. What is our purpose here?

I thought I'd attached a video from 10 years ago that sums it up. Our charter is more than support. It's:

Education
Support
Tool

... .perspective

Support, of course is extremely important and is comforting to take in. Perspective is also extremely important and it often feels like a challenge - and can be invalidating.  If someone comes here and says "my life is over", inevitably, members will support them and they will also challenge this perspective. It has often been said that we learn more from the people who disagree with us than the ones that agree.


Date: 6-2008Minutes: 0:58
Borderline Personality Disorder - Support Group for the Families

2. In a support group do members get it wrong or say it wrong? Do we hear it wrong?

Absolutely. Some get it wrong or say it wrong. Some hear in wrong or don't want to hear it. I think it helps to look at the tone of another member to determine if they seem to be supportive (or not) and take their comments as such. They may be discomforting. This might be important and helpful. We may have to reach further to grow. Or they may just be doing a drive-by shooting. 

[drained1996]

Only now, in this thread, can I state so eloquently what was bothering me at the time.  Why couldn't I do so then?  Its always the same story with me.

Well, that's a step in the right direction from an outsiders point of view... .seems your story may be changing.  I vaguely remember your story, and I haven't clicked on anything to look back, simply read this thread.  It's great you've come back to discuss something that bothered you, rightly, wrongly, or somewhere in between it bothered you.  All of us here have been touched by something the vast majority of the world simply cannot comprehend... .from what I've experienced here and in my own therapy, there typically is something in our past that has made us vulnerable to the clutches of a BPD relationship.  And many times, that past makes us pretty sensitive.  I'll note that several members have said they didn't view the posts as you have... .I am passing no judgement, nor am I saying you are wrong in your feelings as we all feel what we feel.  It's great you've come back to discuss this issue, and I have no desire to discourage you from digging deeper into this topic.  Sometimes people need a hand to hold, sometimes people need a push, and occasionally people need to be drug kicking and screaming in a direction they cannot see.  The members and staff here are just like us, we've all been part of something that has torn at our souls.  ALL the responses/support we get should be taken with a grain of salt.  All paths to recovery and understanding are different though there is a lot of commonality.  I hope this helps put your experience here into perspective.  I also hope you keep sharing and accepting the help and support here as it comes.  It's imperfect, but it's pretty understanding and knowledgeable in my experience.   

[babyducks]

Hi Nuitari,

I am glad to see you hanging in there with this thread.    I know this is sometimes difficult to do.

and at some point I relapse and fall back into those same mental loops.  Its a sickness with me I guess.  

I find this to be an interesting insight.    Here is how it works for me.     I certainly have patterns of thinking that predispose me to certain perspectives.    drained1996 said "there typically is something in our past that made us vulnerable".   For me I grew up in a family of origin where I experienced rejection for not being good enough,  for being defective.   and I developed thinking patterns,  or what some would call internal scripts, that emphasize rejection, emphasize how I screw up.

my therapist says a lot that how we think about something creates how we feel about things.    I shorten that to 'my words create my world'.     what I have come to notice is that sometimes my patterns of thinking reflect my old world better than my existing reality.  it is cognitive distortion and I think we all have them.    to greater and lesser degrees.

, and how so many exchanges somehow turned into debates, where a burden was placed on me to convince others of this and that as opposed to just taking what I say at face value.

I think I would feel frustrated and angry if I believed it was my job to convince members to share my perspective and opinions.   that kind of feels like an insurmountable task to me.    what I would suggest is that isn't a burden you need to pick up.

I think every member that reads this thread is going to walk away with a different view of it.   and that's okay.    :)on't you think it is as equally important, that if when we write a post we hope it's taken at face value, that when we read a post we take it at face value?   Shouldn't it be a two way street?

I think that right/wrong,  agree/disagree,    fault/correct are binary constructs,  (black and white thinking) that isn't very helpful.    Its in the shades of grey that the real meat and potatoes lie.

'ducks

[heartandwhole]

Great discussion.

Nuitari, I'm glad you raised the issue, and I'm sorry that you felt unheard in your previous posts. That is difficult to deal with, and can cause even more hurt on top of what brought us here.

You've gotten excellent advice and perspective in this thread. I'll just chime in and say that just the other day I reacted to a perceived comment from my mother as if I was back at my childhood home and reliving the hurt of feeling unheard/unvalued... .and she didn't even say (or even imply) what I thought she did!  I found out today when she asked me about my reaction. It was my script that I've been running for years that distorted what she was saying into something it wasn't. I could clearly see that today. I realized my mistake and apologized.

Now, these triggered emotions didn't come out of nowhere. There IS a reason I'm running these scripts—stuff happened in my past, yes it did—but these beliefs aren't serving me anymore. Radical Acceptance helps me see that what was, was, and I can learn new ways of viewing the world, myself, and others right now. I can change. I can own my feelings and reactions, and I can make amends with others I've hurt or made assumptions about.

Most importantly, I am learning to forgive myself.

I felt the hurt, and felt like a little girl who believed she didn't matter. It's going to happen again, and that's okay. Because I am learning to be compassionate with myself and others. If others don't listen to or value me, then who's left? That would be me. The more I am willing to turn toward myself and give myself what I want from others, the more I find others giving it to me (maybe not the ones I want to, but many others!).

And sometimes taking care of ourselves means speaking up, as you did. Keep looking, keep asking questions. This difficult journey is worth the tough times. 

My 2¢

heartandwhole

[Jeffree]

Nuitari,

While some of what you pointed out as having caused you distress was definitely on the edge of helpful versus judgmental, and I understand what you're saying and feeling about it, perhaps putting this whole forum in it's proper perspective could help.

There's a mish mash of people here, all with differing abilities to help, share, communicate, and what have you. The one thread that weaves through all of us is our experiences with BPDs. Yet, like with all human interactions our abilities to "help" and receive said help can become compromised when we are triggered.

If something here helps, great. If not, try not to take it personally. Chances are it's not anyone's intent to hurt anyone else.

J

[Nuitari]

Thank you all for your replies.

There is something I should probably clarify.  There is a difference between being supportive and being understanding.  Several of you have said you found the comments that I took issue with to be supportive.  Supportive, yes.  Understanding, not even close, and that was my problem, the sense that these members somehow didn't want to hear me.  Here is a specific example to better clarify my intent in creating this thread.  This is another quote from C. Stein... .

However in this case the distinct impression I am left with is a need for revenge ... .an eye for an eye kind of thing.

This quote is from the thread that Skip linked you to earlier.  If you read this quote in context, you'll see that this was C. Stein's justification for his earlier "Let's be honest" comment.  These members liked to talk a lot about their "distinct impressions" and their "vibes" that they were getting from my posts and took them as gospel, and used those vibes and distinct impressions to write their own scripts.  

Suppose you told me that you hated Chinese food, but I argued to the contrary.  I then made a string of posts, all based on the premise that you loved Chinese food, all because of some "distinct impression" or "vibe" that I thought I picked up in your post.  You know your likes and dislikes better that I do, and if you tell me that you hate Chinese food, then I need to respect that.  C. Stein seemed to only want to listen to his vibes.  Why not listen to me?  I'm not some vague vibe or impression, but a living, breathing, human being who actually lived through the events in question.  Why was it so hard to believe that I might know something about them?

[Skip]

This will probably be most productive if we move away from hypotheticals. 

Do I understand this correctly.  You dated a married women (and student) who's husband was away at war. When he found out he reported you to the college and you were fired. You then wanted to contact the husband and explain what happened.

What did you want to tell him? What would have been the desired outcome (accomplishment) of that discussion?

[Sunfl0wer]

Ok, so lets assume to validate the reality presented here:
Sometimes you have encountered members posting towards you in ways that are less than what you would find supportive.

It sucks to feel vulnerable and open up about stuff that feels raw, and feel minimimized, attacked, or anything other than heard and understood.

I can relate... .I have also really really wanted to be understood, and felt crushed to feel invisible or less than... .it plain sucks!  It sucks when one reaches out for help and feels like the person grabbing the hand we are reaching with... .they are twisting it to break us... .sucks!

Now you have shared your thoughts

They are out there... .
How are you feeling?
Do you feel more resolved within yourself for having spoken your truth?
Where are you at with this, is there more to explore?
Do you still feel there are unmet needs you are experiencing?
Or do you feel content?

[Nuitari]

Do I understand this correctly.  You dated a married women (and student) who's husband was away at war.

That's correct.  But from what I understand, he was stationed in another state, not actually away at war.

When he found out he reported you to the college and you were fired.

He had no idea about the affair.  As far as he knew, this was a case of another man "pursuing" his wife.  She was innocent, while I was pursuing her.  That is the story he created for himself.

What did you want to tell him?

The truth.

What would have been the desired outcome (accomplishment) of that discussion?

Just being heard would have been great.  When my ex finally confessed to having reconciled with her husband, and I fell apart, the husband said that my breakdown was an act on my part to get sympathy from her.  Every act on my part was seen as an attempt at pursuing his wife.  He obviously didn't believe me when I told him I didn't want to see her anymore, even though I was sincere.  When I finally did find the strength to tell my ex I couldn't see her anymore, she gave me a long speech about how she couldn't leave her husband and how she didn't need the drama.  Why would she do this?  I wasn't asking her to leave him. I was saying I didn't want to see her anymore.  I couldn't even speak my mind without others seeing it as part of some kind of ploy or game.  Can you imagine how frustrating it was to plainly say one thing and have it heard as something completely different?  

But another hope was that she would have to answer (to him) and take some kind of accountability for her own part in what happened.  She misled me regarding the state of their marriage.  That doesn't justify my actions.  I still knew she was married.  But she played a big part in this, and then got to go on with her marriage while I was conveniently made the scapgoat.  Motivations and actions were ascribed to me that weren't mine, and this was done for the benefit of others, while my life fell apart.  I hope you can understand why I would want to see what happened come back to bite her.

Now, before you remind me that it is my fault that I lost my job, I completely agree.  That's not what this is about.  Simply recognizing that my job loss was my fault doesn't erase the issues that I outlined here.  This was always a big problem before.  Whenever I expressed the thoughts I just shared here and the pain it all caused me, someone would always come back with "but it was your fault you lost your job."  If your relationship with your BPD ex resulted in your job loss somehow, would simply acknowledging that erase the trauma and scars?

[Skip]

I get your point about being heard and about wanting her to face accountability - you certainly had to.  

Shifting gears away from yourself jst for a minute and putting your all important empathy hat on (understanding others)... .

There are a lot of marriage breakdowns in the service for obvious reasons. Do you think many men worry about this / feel vulnerable when they are away on assignment?

How do you think he felt knowing that there was something between you and his wife while he was away and the marriage was vulnerable?

Assume he had a mixed bag of facts (which is almost always true)... .

How would you feel? How do you think he felt?

What would be your greatest concern? What do you think his concern was?

How aggressively would you do to protect your marriage? How aggressive was he (not enough, too much)?

What would be your goal? What do you think his goal is?

How much would you feel about the other man? What do you think he feels about you?

Hard exercise, I know.  But an important one, no less.

[Nuitari]

Skip,

Good questions.  I don't have any immediate answers, except for this one... .

How aggressively would you do to protect your marriage? How aggressive was he (not enough, too much)?

The whole concept of "protecting a marriage" seems odd to me.  If a marriage needs protecting, is it one worth having?  Marriage is a contract made by two consenting individuals to be faithful to one another.  Both individuals make, and keep, these vows of their own free will, and yet there is a sense of ownership that comes along with marriage.  I never understood that.  Why would someone fight for a spouse who couldn't be trusted?  I wouldn't.  I ended contact with my ex when I learned of all the dishonesty.  I never wanted to see her again.  That, for me, has been the real tragedy.  He didn't have to fight for his marriage because I was no longer a threat to it.  Its hard having someone draw a conclusion about me that I know is wrong, even harder to have it affect my life in such a negative way, even harder to remain silent about it.

Any yes, I know, its my fault for getting involved with her in the first place.  None of this would have happened if I had been wise enough and professional enough to reject her.  But that does little to console me now.

[Nuitari]

If you don't mind my asking, Skip, and I ask this innocently, what is the point of this line of questioning?  I don't object to it.  I'm only asking because it feels like the discussion took a huge and sudden turn.

[Skip]

If you don't mind my asking, Skip, and I ask this innocently, what is the point of this line of questioning?  I don't object to it.  I'm only asking because it feels like the discussion took a huge and sudden turn.

Your bottom line is about being heard / understood (empathy)... .Let's dig into that - 360 degrees.

I don't have any immediate answers, except for this one... .

Empathy, seeing things from the perspective of others, is one of the most fundamental skills of emotional intelligence. The framers of the DSM5 proposed that that impaired empathy be one of the 4 cornerstones to screening personality disorders.

Answering those questions are critical to understanding your situation and your options and their likely outcome. If any of us need help, a support group is excellent and helping us see the perspectives others may very well have.

The whole concept of "protecting a marriage" seems odd to me.  If a marriage needs protecting, is it one worth having?

OK. I see your point. I also know a lot of people with 40+ year marriages and they pretty much all have echoed that every marriage faces severe challenges and in those down times, have to be "protected" - held above. It's also a valid point. Most attribute their marriage success to overcoming a fatal event (s).

I'd really encourage you to step out there and try to answer those important questions.

First, I'd ask you to self assess you own empathy skills (the ability to see the other persons side of things independent of your own opinions or agenda)... .

Here is the scale the framers developed.
Helping each other to grow to be more empathetic is one very important way we help each other at bpdfamily.com

    Healthy (0) Capable of accurately understanding others’ experiences and motivations in most situations. Comprehends and appreciates others’ perspectives, even if disagreeing. Is aware of the effect of own actions on others.

    Mild impairment (1) Somewhat compromised in ability to appreciate and understand others’ experiences; may tend to see others as having unreasonable expectations or a wish for control. Although capable of considering and understanding different perspectives, resists doing so. Inconsistent is awareness of effect of own behavior on others.

    Impaired (2) Hyper-attuned to the experience of others, but only with respect to perceived relevance to self. Excessively self-referential; significantly compromised ability to appreciate and understand others’ experiences and to consider alternative perspectives. Generally unaware of or unconcerned about effect of own behavior on others, or unrealistic appraisal of own effect.

    Very Impaired (3) Ability to consider and understand the thoughts, feelings and behavior of other people is significantly limited; may discern very specific aspects of others’ experience, particularly vulnerabilities and suffering. Generally unable to consider alternative perspectives; highly threatened by differences of opinion or alternative viewpoints. Confusion or unawareness of impact of own actions on others; often bewildered about peoples’ thoughts and actions, with destructive motivations frequently misattributed to others.

    Extreme Impairment (4) Pronounced inability to consider and understand others’ experience and motivation. Attention to others' perspectives virtually absent (attention is hypervigilant, focused on need-fulfillment and harm avoidance). Social interactions can be confusing and disorienting.

[Nuitari]

I’ll be honest, Skip.  I don’t feel any empathy for him.  None at all.  And it’s not like I haven’t tried to process his point of view.  I have.  I just don’t get any of what happened.  Maybe it’s because this relationship stuff is so new and foreign to me?  I’ve been told that my Asperger’s makes me see the world in a different way.  Maybe my thinking is just too different?  All I know is, it makes zero sense for someone to blame an outsider for their partner’s cheating.  I will never understand that, and the more I try to understand it, the less sense it makes.  Getting back to this idea of saving a marriage, I know I’m way out of my element here, but it seems to me that it would take two people to do that, not just one.  Both parties would have to be committed to improving their marriage.  That is what makes sense to me.  Is that just a bunch of idealistic bs?  My ex asked me once if I was capable of “sharing” her with him.  I said I couldn’t do that.  I didn’t want that kind of relationship.  If he lashing out at me under circumstances like that is what qualifies as saving a marriage, then I just don’t know what to think.  If that strategy is all it took to fix his problems, and the two of them are happy now, then I’m very afraid of what that implies.  I’m afraid to find out that I’m not cut out for this relationship stuff because I can’t understand it.   His wife’s relationship with me was a symptom of his problem, not the cause, but that is all he seemed capable of seeing.  It is hard for me to see how removing me from the picture is going to solve his real problem.  But then again, he has got to know much more about relationships and how they work than I do, and he seemed pretty confident in his solution.  So maybe he’s right?  From my perspective, his thinking and strategy seem shallow and over simplistic.  Barbaric even.  And the fact that practically everyone else can empathize with him scares me, because it leads me to suspect that his behavior is typical.  Is that the kind of mentally that I’m expected to have to make a relationship work?  I don’t know if I can do that.

[Skip]

I’ll be honest, Skip.  I don’t feel any empathy for him.  None at all.  And it’s not like I haven’t tried to process his point of view.  I have.  I just don’t get any of what happened.  Maybe it’s because this relationship stuff is so new and foreign to me?  I’ve been told that my Asperger’s makes me see the world in a different way.  

I think you're talking about compassion (not empathy).  

Empathy is understanding what another person is going through (to a reasonable extent). I never had a son die, but I have life experiences that I can call upon to help me understand what a friend who is experiencing this is going through and I can make sense of his actions and relate to him.

Using the DSM definitions about the ability to empathize as you describe in you post, you comments would fall in the impaired range. I'm not extending my comment beyond just your words in this post and the DSM definition.

This is an important skill for dealing with people... .no matter who we are, others can legitimately think differently than we do. I would contend that not being able to see the others sides of this is making this harder for you.

On significant benefit of a support group is that people can help you with that. I ask members from time to time to help me understand why others are doing what they do and it helps me find solutions, ways to improve, and self satisfaction.

Why not try that here?

[Nuitari]

I think you're talking about compassion (not empathy).

No, I'm talking about empathy. I don't understand what was happening inside his head, other than the obvious fact that he was angry. If you read a lot of my posts, you'll see that understanding his mentality has been one of my primary objectives here, but most members here don't want to go there. Despite many members here asking me to empathize with the husband, they themselves have been unwilling (or unable) to explain his mindset.  Several members here, as well as my T, have suggested the possibility that my ex's affair with me was not an isolated incident, that this may be a recurrent problem in their marriage. If that is true, then I'm even more confused by his behavior. It would mean that he had to know that I wasn't the origin of his marriage problems, but still chose to behave as if I was. I get that he doesn't like me given what happened.  I wouldn't expect him to, but to single me out as the source of his problem while his wife is actively pursuing other men is pretty messed up.  Its a different story with the school.  I broke policy, and I completely understand my employers' reasons for letting me go.  I can't figure the husband out though.

[Skip]

Several members here, as well as my T, have suggested the possibility that my ex's affair with me was not an isolated incident, that this may be a recurrent problem in their marriage. If that is true, then I'm even more confused by his behavior. It would mean that he had to know that I wasn't the origin of his marriage problems, but still chose to behave as if I was. I get that he doesn't like me given what happened.  I wouldn't expect him to, but to single me out as the source of his problem while his wife is actively pursuing other men is pretty messed up.

Nuitari, you where in his wife while he was away on assignment. Its a pretty good bet he wanted to destroy someone. He was violated to the deepest extent. If he wanted to salvage his marriage, he couldn't destroy her, so it was you.  Be thankful he had self control.

Watch the bull seal fight over mating partners... .its not much deeper than that. We are all still animals. 

[Nuitari]

If he wanted to salvage his marriage, he couldn't destroy her, so it was you.

So he wanted it both ways.  He wanted to have his cake and eat it too, while I lost everything, and I sat back and allowed this to happen.  That is what is eating away at me.  I had a lot of power that I didn't use.  I could have told him the truth about me and his wife.  I wonder what that would have done to the marriage that he was trying to salvage.  I that didn't destroy it, it certainly wouldn't have helped matters.  But instead I quietly let myself be cast in the role of the pursuer while my world fell apart around me, and what lesson did he learn from this?  That his animalistic behavior works!  That it solves problems.  It didn't have to play out like that if I had been man enough to stand up and tell the truth, and this will always nag at me if don't do that.

I want to make something else clear.  Had he discovered that I had slept with his wife, became so outraged that he called the school, I wouldn't feel any anger toward him under those circumstances.  That to me is somewhat understandable.  That is the story I feel like a lot of you have in your heads, but that's not what happened.  It is the particular circumstances that led to him calling the school that I can't get past.  Do you know what my ex said to me after I lost my job? After telling me how much she loved me and how she was so unhappy in her marriage?  She said that she would have never pursued me if he hadn't went away.  Can you imagine how that made me feel after losing everything?  She had no problem telling me this to my face. Being used in that way and being a scapegoat is too much.  Something has to give.  If you were in my place, you'd want to expose the truth too.

[Nuitari]

Watch the bull seal fight over mating partners... .its not much deeper than that. We are all still animals.

Its not much deeper than that?  That, to me, is appalling.  I've watched plenty of nature documentaries where two males are fighting over a female.  The male that can inflict the most damage gets her.  There is no sympathy on the female's part for the male who was just killed.  Aggressiveness is all it takes to win the female over?  That is what impresses her?  And she isn't with the male because she chose to be, but because the male won her like some kind of prize?  There are no feelings involved in any of that.  Its not much deeper than that in human relationships?  It was a lot deeper than that for me.  I took everything my ex said about leaving him at face value.  I thought those were decisions that she made.  I didn't realize until too late that the husband and I were fighting for her.  I don't feel like I live in the same world as other people sometimes.  What I did learn from being with my ex was that I did like being in a relationship.  The world was all black and white, and suddenly there was color.  After that experience, I thought that maybe I actually had what takes to sustain a relationship, but now I'm not so sure anymore.  

[Nuitari]

Here's something I've realized.  I have other problems going on that I haven't shared here, and they're all based on not being heard.  That's what it all comes down to.  I remember the way my ex responded to my telling her that I didn't want to see her anymore, telling me she didn't need the drama. I didn't need it either, hence me telling her that I didn't want to see her anymore. It was that simple. She couldn't seem to wrap her head around the idea that I was being sincere and wasn't playing some game.  When I finally broke down, the husband accused me of acting so as to "get pitty" from her.  Even after making it as clear as I could to both of them that I wanted out of that situation, they still continued to cast me in the role of pursuer, and then I lost my job. Do you have any idea how excruciating it is to simply speak what is on your mind, and still somehow communicate nothing? 

[Skip]

Had he discovered that I had slept with his wife, became so outraged that he called the school, I wouldn't feel any anger toward him under those circumstances.  That to me is somewhat understandable.  That is the story I feel like a lot of you have in your heads, but that's not what happened. 

What did happen?

Do you think anything you could have said would make a difference?

[drained1996]

Do you have any idea how excruciating it is to simply speak what is on your mind, and still somehow communicate nothing?

I can relate to this statement many times over in my life.  It is excruciatingly painful not to be heard by those you love.  Many here have experienced the same circumstances.  Lots of our family of origin issues play a role in our subsequent not so healthy adult relationship choices.  It seems from your posts, you seem to realize a very crucial issue which is, you are not heard.  That's painful... .I know, I'm still not heard by my family.  
My own process took me to realize my own FOO issues... .which made me realize putting much weight on my exBPD's thoughts/actions/reactions was not very productive in moving forward in life.   Realizing the depth of which an emotionally unhealthy partner could influence my own life required me to look at my own.  How and why did I get here, and how and why did I allow it to continue for so long how and why did I react in such an unhealthy manner?  Shifting my focus from her issues (while still learning and understanding what they were) to my own was a turning point.  I'm still a work in progress, as are many here.  I'm going to go out on a limb and say you may see the unhealthy part in your focus on how they have reacted... .
You're not alone here, many have been or are on the same path... .keep sharing.