Home page of BPDFamily.com, online relationship supportMember registration here
December 06, 2019, 05:35:24 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Board Admins: FaithHopeLove, Harri, Once Removed
Senior Ambassadors: Cat Familiar, I Am Redeemed, Mutt, Turkish
Ambassadors: Enabler, Forgiveness, formflier, GaGrl,  khibomsis , Longterm, Ozzie101, pursuingJoy, Swimmy55, zachira
  Help!   Groups   Please Donate Login to Post New?--Click here to register  
bing
Depression = 72% of members
Take the test, read about the implications, and check out the remedies.
111
Pages: [1] 2  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: My wife of 8 years left me for the 4th time  (Read 1963 times)
Speck
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
What is your relationship status with them: Divorced since Mar 2018
Posts: 610



WWW
« on: January 25, 2018, 01:19:05 AM »

Hello, all:

I've been lurking here for a while, and just joined tonight.

My wife of 8 years left me for the FOURTH time in late November 2017.  We've been together for 10 years.

The first time that she abruptly walked out of the relationship was before we were married.  At the time, she was 35-years old, and living with her parents (Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post)).  We had been dating for about six months, and after love-bombing me left and right, she strongly insinuated that she wanted for us to be married.  Because she had an eight-year old, I wished to wait to be married after a proper 2-year courtship out of respect for the child (whom I ultimately informally adopted as my own) and my BPD wife's parents.  Learning this, she got pissed off, stormed out of my house, got into her car, and I had to go down to the street to talk her down.  After that, things settled down, and I proceeded to date her, but with caution flags flying all the while... .

The second time that she left me was after we had been married for 5 years, and we were having communication problems.  Not understanding her behavior whatsoever, I bought a book on relationships, and gave her a copy, and told her that I would like for her to read it, and that I would do the same... .that we would work through it together.  She just sat there on the couch icily looking at me (her classic stance to any argument/dust-up).  I left to go run an errand, and when I got back, she wasn't there!  All of her clothes were gone, and there was an empty trash bag box on the floor of the laundry room.  I quickly put it together that she had crammed all of her clothes into the trash bags, and left for her parents' house (her go-to Golden Parachute).  Indeed, I called her, and found her to be in-route to her parents' house.  I managed to talk her down, and she agreed to come back home.  After that, things settled down, but she was NOT interested in reading any books on relationship-building.  We proceeded to live our lives, but with red flags flying all the while... .

The third time that she left me was a couple of months after the second time and immediately after a 3-week major summer vacation.  Like before, there was no warning.  She had met with her BFF, an old high school friend (an old flame), for coffee that morning, and then came home to tell me that she was leaving me.  Our kid was back in her room, happily drawing and humming to herself, and it broke my heart to tell her that her mother was leaving me (again) and that she should pack up some things, because she would be living with her grandparents for now.  She looked stricken and hugged me hard, but dutifully packed up some things, and they both left for my BPD wife's parents' house.  As the summer wore on, I just let my BPD wife have all the space she wanted, and stupidly allowed myself to be tortured with constant mixed messages via text from my BPD wife.  At a certain point, we set a date for her to tell me if she actually wanted a divorce, or if she wanted to work on the relationship.  On this date, she came over and before she even set her purse down, she blurted out that she was going to be proceeding with the divorce.  I was absolutely crest-fallen because her texts to me that summer did not indicate that this was what she was going to tell me.  Yes... .I cried.  Yes... .I reasoned with her.  Yes... .I reminded her of all the good things about our relationship.  All the wrong things to do and yet... .all to no avail.  She just coldly stood up and walked out of my house.  A couple of weeks later, I helped her move all her and our kid's stuff to her parents' house.  Scroll forward just ONE month, and low-and-behold, she was singing a different tune!  She wanted to move back in, so I allowed her to, and helped her move all her stuff back in.  Her parents looked relieved!

Immediately after moving back in, she proceeded to dive into finishing up a degree in her chosen field, and talked me into sending our kid to a ridiculously expensive boarding school (which our kid REALLY wanted to  attend).  As a condition to reconciling the marriage, I insisted on MC, and she went for just 4 sessions, and then told me that MC was "not working" for her, and so she stopped going.  Instead of working on our relationship, she buried herself under tons and tons of school-work, and was not available to me in any real sense.  This went on for additional two years, and it finally dawned on me that she was simply using me to better position herself for when she would finally leave me for good.  I laid awake at night, pondering this, just waiting for the shoe to drop.  I never shared my thoughts about this with her, but I was not at all surprised when, two days after finishing up her degree, she announced that she was leaving me, and packed up some things, and left for her parents' house.  Six days after that, she served me divorce papers via email (early December 2017)!  This was after just two weeks prior to this, she was trying to talk me into buying her an RV, and was telling me that I was her "One", and that she loved me "Soo much!"

Regardless, throughout early December, on days that I was at work, she would come over and pack up whatever she thought was hers and take it over to her parents' house.  The was no negotiation regarding personal property whatsoever.  Nope.  I would come home from work to simply find the closets, or the bookshelf, or the kitchen cleared out.  She did leave me some dishes, though... .all the chipped ones.  Then, all of a sudden, she stopped doing that, and I was left boxes and boxes of stuff to trip over.  I looked at them for two weeks, moved it all out to the sun room in a neat and orderly fashion, and then emailed her that she should come get the rest of her things and where to find them.  I didn't hear anything back from her for another week, and so, I then rented a UHAUL truck, loaded it up, and took it ALL over to her storage rental.  This pissed her off because I had to involve her mother, but her mother was simply amazing about it all, and told me that she wishes me nothing but the best and that she hopes that I'm eventually "able to move on."

The first three times that my wife left me, I thought that maybe it was something that I was doing wrong to make her so flighty... .and she sure let me believe that!  No, I'm not perfect, although from my perspective, I have always treated her like an absolute queen, and I have tried my level best to provide the best, safest, and most loving home environment that I could for both her and our kid.  I thought that she must have lost respect for me because I am such a Beta Male, most likely co-dependent.  I thought that maybe my wife had a bad case of The Grass is Always Greener Syndrome, was a Walk-Away-Wife, or that maybe she was going through a Midlife Crisis, common to a lot of married people around the age of 45.  But, no.  

After MUCH research and thinking things over, I finally stumbled onto this marvelous site and found the answers that I've been looking for a solid 10 years!  I've read so many stories here that read just like the same experience I've had with my wife.  I now know why I have at times felt like I was married to a toddler!

At any rate, I have already signed the divorce papers she served me, and I am just waiting for her to sign as well.  The last I heard from her regarding that was via email that she was still "reviewing them."  That was two weeks ago.

I just wanted to write to share my story.  It was certainly therapeutic for me to purge it out, and maybe it will help someone else who doesn't yet understand the PUSH/PULL dynamic of being painted white/black while in a relationship with someone who suffers with severe emotional lability, or BPD.

Thank you, ALL.  This site is an amazing resource, and has been a great comfort to me.


-Speck

Logged
Skip
Site Director
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 8037


« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2018, 02:20:38 AM »

Ugh... .

Selfishness is not uncommon... .your ex wife tipped the scales pretty heavy on this attribute.

So, what is happening to the little one in all of this?

Skip
Logged

 
Go

*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 27


« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2018, 04:20:49 AM »

Thank you so much for sharing this.   I am most grateful as this pretty much sums up exactly my BPD wife, in and out all the time, multiple separations hot cold. 
Blaming me for being a nice guy.   It is very hurtful I know and you have done impressively well.

I know the push and pull on our individual emotions always wanting to rescue what is clearly the unrescueable, despite everything we hope we can do.
I like your patience in this thing, it speaks volumes of you being a wise and decent person.   I thank you for sharing this.  Particularly how used many of us here feel at times, being taken for a ride. 

Your message gives me great comfort too, so now I can move on more sure footed by the day, with my life finding purpose again even healing and in time with balance again, to happier relationships.
Regards, Go
Logged

Speck
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
What is your relationship status with them: Divorced since Mar 2018
Posts: 610



WWW
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2018, 12:02:46 PM »

Hello, Skip.

The child that I have raised as my own is now 18 years old.  She is a senior now, and is doing very well in school.  She has always been a bright kid, and she seems to have her head screwed on straight.

She's also very artsy, and went to a School of Fine Arts for teenagers until she decided that she wanted to go to the boarding school for 11th and 12th grades.  So, that is where she is right now.  She is a little emotionally young for her age, and her mother and I thought that the boarding school would be a nice, safe bridge for her to develop the social skills necessary in order for her to embark upon going away to college.  Further, she and her mother are quite enmeshed emotionally speaking, and I thought that the boarding school would also introduce some natural weening that needed to happen in order for our kid to be able to fly on her own... .stand on her own two feet in this world.

My daughter and I keep in contact by calling or texting once a week, and I make a point to keep the conversation light and easy.  She has been very loving and sweet.  As far as I know, I am just another in a LONG list of men that her mother has discarded, and I think that my daughter is able to see that... .although, of course, we do not discuss such things.

To your other point:  Yes, my wife is extremely selfish, very much like a child, and feels entitled to her stuff, my stuff, her time, my time, etc.

If I'm lucky, she will sign the divorce papers that she initiated in early December, and I can finally get off the roller coaster for real.

Thank you for your thoughts.
Logged
Speck
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
What is your relationship status with them: Divorced since Mar 2018
Posts: 610



WWW
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2018, 12:21:54 PM »

Go!

I really like your user-name, as it is a very powerful one-word sentence.  I think also, maybe, in the case of your having a relationship with someone afflicted with BPD, it may be a self-directive statement.  So, good on you.

And, yes, this is what I have also come to in my decade long journey with my BPD wife.  She must go, or I must go, but "go" it must be.

As aforementioned, she abruptly walked out on me the week after Thanksgiving, out of the damn blue!  Since this is the fourth time that she has done this, I have already made up my mind that I will not allow her to pull me back in.  I'm sure there will come a time in the near future when she will have an "Wow, what have I done?" moment, and will try to recycle me.  But, this time, I am done.  It's the only thing a sensible person can do under the circumstances.  Let her GO.

Thank you for sharing YOUR thoughts.
Logged
Speck
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
What is your relationship status with them: Divorced since Mar 2018
Posts: 610



WWW
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2018, 05:47:27 PM »

One of the first steps of positive action that I undertook after my BPD wife did her last magical vanishing trick on me was to hire a therapist to help me process the inevitably bumpy road ahead.  I decided to hire the same MC that worked with us after the third time that my BPD wife left me (two years ago).  At the time, MC was a condition of mine for reconciling, and we went until my BPD wife's buzzer went off, and she decided that she wasn't going to go anymore.  Actually, we went until my BPD wife had moved all of her stuff back into my home, and she then decided that she was done with peeling the onion.  End of discussion.

So, anyway, knowing that this MC also did IC, I decided to email her to see if she could squeeze me into a regular rotation just to have a safe place to process some chunky thoughts.  Incidentally, this was just six days after my BPD wife had vanished, and I happened to be at work that day and was just emailing the MC about this very thing, when I noticed that I had an email from my BPD wife.  The email was titled, ":)ivorce Papers for you to Review."  Ouch!

Regardless, the MC got in touch with me, and I have been in a weekly rotation since then.  Of course, I am no longer seeking MC, but individual counseling, instead.  And, let me tell you, it has helped tremendously!  I am seeing how much of a Beta Male Doormat I was during my marriage, although this is something that I have concluded, not my therapist.  She is simply supportive, non-blaming (which is nice), and gives me homework.

One of the assignments that I had to turn into her today was an assignment called "My Boundaries."  I will list them below because maybe one of two of them will resonate with someone here:


1.   Be wary of people who come on way too strongly, and who seem to want to zip past the organic getting-to-know-you phase.

2.   Be very cautious with people who cannot keep their word, as one's word is one's bond and means a great deal to me.

3.   Do not allow people to tell me how I feel about anything.

4.   Never let a woman try to talk me into moving in together after only 6 months of dating. And... .if she does broach the subject, be curious, and find out why... .if possible.

5.   NEVER date people who live with their parents. There's a reason that they do, and it's not a good indicator of maturity.

6.   Be careful of people who tell me their whole "life story" within the first three dates.

7.   Be cautious of people who appear to be "love-bombing" me right out of the gate.

8.   Do not spend one second more on people who push me away only to draw me in close again. One cycle of that is enough to know.

9.   Do not allow people to scream curse words at me or slam doors in my face. Do not reward this bad behavior. There is no excuse for a healthy and mature person to conduct themselves in this manner at any time. Again, once is enough to know.

10.   When someone who claims to love and adore me suddenly gives me the Kiss of Death by telling me, "I love you, but I'm not in love with you," or says, "I just regard you as a brother," the onus is on me to believe them.

11.   When someone functions as though they have absolutely no direction in life and is content to let me do all the heavy lifting, RUN!

12.   Be cautious of women who tell ALL the dirt and nasty details of previous relationships, as this may be a preview of how I may be similarly regarded in the future.

13.   Be careful around people who need 12 hours sleep per day, as very little gets done during the 12 hours that they are awake!

14.   Be very cautious around people who do not know what a genuine apology is, whether being able to give one or to receive one.

15.   If, after the first couple of dust-ups it occurs to me that I'm talking to a 4-year old, I probably am.

16.   If I learn that I have been verbally run-down to her circle of family and friends - without cause - just know that the relationship is doomed and this person is incapable of a meaningful relationship.

17.   If the woman I am dating doesn't seem self-aware in the slightest and/or lacks impulse control, it may be time to stop dating her.

18.   If a woman is more apt to dismiss or disregard my feelings than to believe what I'm sharing with her, then maybe, she's not the one for me.

19.   I need to not allow myself to be manipulated or suckered into solving my girlfriend's/wife's problems for her.

20.   When people can so cavalierly walk away from you (over and over and over), LET THEM WALK. No begging, no pleading, no crying, no reaching out, no words. LET THEM WALK.



**Bonus: NEVER date people who live with their parents! NEVER! (See #5)**

... .

I hope what I have shared here is helpful to someone.  Thanks for reading.


-Speck
Logged
Speck
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
What is your relationship status with them: Divorced since Mar 2018
Posts: 610



WWW
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2018, 09:05:31 PM »

My uBPDw served me divorce papers to sign on Dec 6.  She's not asking for anything, as we both have identical jobs (make the same $$), I paid my house off before we were married, our kid is 18, and we have been married for 8 years.

I had an attorney look over her drawn-up divorce documents, and he formally requested that her attorney make some changes in the wording of the documents, which happened.  When they came back revised, I signed them on Jan 2.  I let her know that I signed them in a very cordially worded email on Jan 4.  The next day, she emailed me that she was "reviewing the documents to sign."

I'm afraid that she is just going to drag the divorce process out.  How long should I wait to prompt her to get on the ball to sign and file the divorce documents?  I do not plan to be an ass about it, but I don't wish for her to run the clock on this thing, and here I'll sit two years from now still married to a person who doesn't give a flying fig about me.

Just looking for a general consensus.  Any ideas?
Logged
Go

*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 27


« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2018, 03:41:35 AM »

About 2 seconds is all you should have to wait after her lawyer has given them the nod, I would suggest.  Forget her, just have your lawyer speak to her lawyer in case the lawyer is using his fee to re-carpet not just his office but the entire floor.    Whatever you do, either directly to her email wise, is liable to be misrepresented in her 4 year old mind.  If you go in direct, you will need to assume a very matter of fact tone, emotion neutral.  So far as for me, last talk I had early January was I told her I would need to be using a lawyer.  She was gob smacked as she thought I would just mail her a cheque and take care of everything myself.  That is what we always to right?   This time, I want the gate closed tight, locked, then superglue poured into the mechanism, if you get my drift.  This one is not coming back open again... .not ever.  That is the tack I am happily taking now.  It burns them out over weeks, when they have to deal with steady, steady, steady... .just not in their nature and they will throw in the towel when they can't emotionally cope with their own mind noise and BS and no one to attack at best she will only have her lawyer to annoy.  He or she lawyer will have had their share of crazy and will be able to pick such, long before people like you and I are even half aware.    (We need our check lists... .utterly brilliant idea).  Mine check list is a lot different to yours but if you are interested will send my 26 key points.  My BPD/w ticked only 6 boxes.  I think yours is better than mine, it is much more specific and really looks for key indicators, that will really jump out and bite you.  I would caution that as important, it is wise to look for compounding +ves in humans that prove their nature, as opposed to watching out for something that might be construed as a deal breaker.  For instance people that wear their hearts on their sleeve and are talkative will share much about themselves often with a sense of humour... .because their lives are BIG and there is always a tonne going on... .lots of positive stuff too, they will be, as they always are.  Some of the most firmly planted and kindest humans I have ever met fit that bill perfectly.  I would not suggest you edit them out, save you are a conservative, quiet person, that likes to keep life noise to a minimum.   Eh that is me a bit of late, I can tell you.  Phewww!  Who needs a handful to deal with, BUT... .remember you like the noise... .you were attracted to BPD... .but this time just someone half sane.
  As for people like us, we tend to be giving and forgiving as our fundamental nature.  Call us Borderline, non-judge-mentals.  Yes that was meant to be a bad joke!  Sadly for too much of our marriage I was Mr Nice Guy too,  heavens Mr even Obsequious too often, stepping on eggs shells and pulling faces in the process in case it upset Madam Lash.   I am over looking back, my life is way better now only looking forward (with new sane detector on the handle bars and trainer wheels that take over hit reverse the moment I start going the wrong way) I can only imagine how good it can be with a bit of solid work in 12 months time.  It really twists our privates when we have to get tough on people, but unfortunately now we have to dig deeper into our deep steady common-sense resolve, to find our long lost higher self image and build ourselves anew, with far more backbone one hopes.  Her lawyer will pick a time when it is opportune to close the gate permanently if he is a true professional and a great many are.  The sooner it is over the sooner they get paid. Good luck, and keep us in the loop.  Congratulations I think you are sprinting in the right direction and the fuse well lit behind you, so no need to turn around for a second.   
Regards,
Go
Logged

Speck
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
What is your relationship status with them: Divorced since Mar 2018
Posts: 610



WWW
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2018, 10:28:06 AM »

About 2 seconds is all you should have to wait after her lawyer has given them the nod, I would suggest.

Ha! Well, she already has the revised, signed, and notarized divorce documents in hand. But, apparently, she is still "reviewing them." I think it's a control issue. After all, the plaintiff is the one who controls the timeline of a divorce. I just hope she's not holding out with plans to recycle me in the near future. That will be an uncomfortable conversation, to be sure. I have loved her with all of my bearing, but I must let her go in order to heal. I cannot allow myself to be subjected to the pull/push cycle a fifth time.  It's pure madness!

Thank you for all of your kind support, and for sharing your story with me. Yes, the only way is forward.

-Speck
Logged
GoneForGood81

Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 3


« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2018, 03:34:56 PM »

Oh man. Thats really hard. Sorry to hear that you had to endure that.
My story is hard but not as hard as yours. I think as soon as children are involved it gets really messy really quick.
As I have read your story nevertheless I have found many similarities between your ex and mine. Its hard if not impossible to understand whats going thru their mind.

The cold stare when you mentioned the book which would help you to get a better relationship... .I can literally see her blue eyes turn black and every emotion leaving her face. I wonder if thats the way they really are. You know, soulless creatures... .but I refuse to do so. They are basically wounded children which suffered terrible things (sometimes at least) when they were very vulnerable and their brain dealt with the pain in such a way that the result is a personality disorder.

Did you also experience that the good times became shorter and shorter every time they came back?
And did the discards also become more and more cruel each time?

I wish you all the best for your healing! Thanks for replying to my text earlier on. Take care and stay strong!
Logged
Speck
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
What is your relationship status with them: Divorced since Mar 2018
Posts: 610



WWW
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2018, 04:24:18 PM »

The cold stare when you mentioned the book which would help you to get a better relationship... .I can literally see her blue eyes turn black and every emotion leaving her face.

Yes. Exactly.

Excerpt
I wonder if thats the way they really are. You know, soulless creatures

Haha... .yes, sometimes, my wife really is that way. But, I know what you mean.

Excerpt
They are basically wounded children which suffered terrible things

Yes, I see this, too.

Excerpt
Did you also experience that the good times became shorter and shorter every time they came back?

Absolutely. I was always waiting for the shoe to drop.

Excerpt
And did the discards also become more and more cruel each time?

Yes, each time, she became more and more efficient with her exit. The exit which comes out of no where, and is usually on the heels of telling me that she's soo in love with me and that I am her "One." Baffling as hell!

Excerpt
I wish you all the best for your healing! Thanks for replying to my text earlier on. Take care and stay strong!

Thank you, GFG81! I am just taking things day by day. I find the community here very therapeutic. Hang in there, yourself.


-Speck

Logged
tlc232
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 83



« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2018, 10:35:07 PM »

Wow... .  I'm sorry for what you've been through, Speck.   I was fortunate enough not to have any children involved (with the exception of some very loyal dogs!).   I understand a lot of what you shared.   The list had a lot of things that I too would list as boundaries.   :)id you hear me yelling - YES!   It does feel good to feel validated.   It's not being "right" as in I KNEW HE WAS CRAZY - but it's nice to not feel like you are losing your mind.   I bet we all came here for many reasons, but I think a lot would stay to be understood and to understand the behavior that is not explainable that each of us experienced at different degrees.   I hope you are finding that too.

I resonate with so much of what you said because I am just done with it.   My last phase was the "guilt" phase that I am still working on getting through, but I am making progress.   

I couldn't tell in what you shared if she had a bad childhood (seems doubtful if she keeps going back to her mother/father -- but at 40+?).   It seems to be somewhat hallmark in this area for BPD people to have something traumatic or otherwise noteworthy in their .   Also -- was she a professional victim during all of these years?   

What is your support structure like?   :)o you have friends that wanted to stage an intervention or your own family?    Do you struggle with guilt because you feel like you were her champion and you worry they won't be "ok" without you there to fix things?   I am working through that as a major issue on why I didn't change the locks sooner.  I am guessing that is why you sent her to school knowing what was likely coming - ?.   All in all -- I don't know why a partner cannot understand that you want to be treated the same way they do (I would get the deer in headlights look at that request).

Here's to taking all the hard work and putting it into improving our own lives.  While I miss the companionship, I don't miss the companion.     

I'm glad you are here --- a lot of what you have shared has helped a lot.   Hope we can help as well.     

Logged

I only have one heart to give and one mind to lose -- I choose to fall in love with someone who will take both...
Speck
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
What is your relationship status with them: Divorced since Mar 2018
Posts: 610



WWW
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2018, 12:55:22 AM »

I bet we all came here for many reasons, but I think a lot would stay to be understood and to understand the behavior that is not explainable that each of us experienced at different degrees. I hope you are finding that too.

I am most certainly glad I found bpdfamily when I did. I now have the answers to the questions I've carried with me for 10 years.  I also find the forums chock-full to the brim with folks who very well know what I've been through and that alone is validating in a way that cannot be found in real life.

Excerpt
I resonate with so much of what you said because I am just done with it. My last phase was the "guilt" phase that I am still working on getting through, but I am making progress.

I'm sorry you're experiencing guilt. If you don't mind sharing, I'm curious, what is it that you feel guilty about?

Excerpt
I couldn't tell in what you shared if she had a bad childhood (seems doubtful if she keeps going back to her mother/father -- but at 40+?).

From what I've been told, she was sexually molested by her grandfather during her childhood, and her father was a workaholic who was never around when she was a child and he also emotionally abuses her mother.  But, her father is retired now and is physically available to her. Her parents are still married to each other but don't like each other very much. It's awkward. I think their relationship dynamic messed up my uBPDw, as her mother leaned on her way too much when she was growing up (told her marital secrets, and such). Regardless, they are all very enmeshed and are my wife's proverbial Golden Parachute when she's between men (my wife was married to someone else before me, and our kid has a different father than my uBPFw's ex-husband).

Excerpt
Also -- was she a professional victim during all of these years?

Yes and no. She certainly billed herself as a hard-working single mother while we were dating, and explained that her relationship failures with the numerous men that she dated/married were because they ALL had something wrong with them, and that she had once been raped by a famous musician (whom I will not name), etc. So... .I felt sorry for her and thought that she was just trying to get back on her feet. At the time, I didn't realize that she had a loong patterned history and identity with victimhood.

I didn't know until after we were married that she had five (5!) abortions during her late teens and early 20s, that she once slept with a friend's husband several times, and that she tried to kill herself when she was 12-13 years old. Had I known these last three details, I would have never married her, as it's too red-flaggy. I think she knew that, too. Anyway, to answer your question, she has been a life-long victim of her own poor choices. Her parents continued to bail her out until I came along. That is why she does not know what consequences are. She's never experienced them!

Excerpt
What is your support structure like? Do you have friends that wanted to stage an intervention or your own family?

Ha. I have a long-time work buddy that I've known for 17 years, and he's been a true friend to me. I have other friends that are precious and very good to me. I try to be a good friend, too.

I do not have parents or siblings or any type of blood-kin that I know of.

My father is now deceased, and my mother suffers from extreme NPD. For my own sanity, I had to make the very difficult and painful decision to go full NC on them (my father was alive at the time) when I was 23 years old. It's a long story and one that doesn't need to crowd this thread, but that's been 23 years ago. I put myself through college and have been absolutely on my own since I was 17 years old.

Excerpt
Do you struggle with guilt because you feel like you were her champion and you worry they won't be "ok" without you there to fix things?

When she left me the second and third time (both, 2015), I did feel that she was making a very rash and irrational decision to leave a stable home and a husband that loved her with every ounce of my bearing. I felt very worried and sad for her, but I didn't feel guilty per se because I know that I have always treated her like gold, an absolute queen. She accused me of being "clingy," and that was the primary basis for her leaving me. I definitely felt like a Beta Male Doormat, but I don't think that I ever clung to her. At the time, I thought that she just lost respect for me. We all now know that she was just devaluing me. Part of the push/pull cycle.

When she left me this last time (Nov 2017), I simply felt numb.

Excerpt
I am guessing that is why you sent her to school knowing what was likely coming - ?.

Yes.

Excerpt
All in all -- I don't know why a partner cannot understand that you want to be treated the same way they do (I would get the deer in headlights look at that request).

That's because you are mentally healthy.

Excerpt
Here's to taking all the hard work and putting it into improving our own lives.

Absolutely. I am ready.    

Excerpt
I'm glad you are here --- a lot of what you have shared has helped a lot.   Hope we can help as well.

I am glad that I am here, too. Thank you so much, tlc232, for your curiosity about my relationship. Although it is painful to delve into it, it is important grief work. I have been so relieved to have found this place, and I know that I have benefitted greatly from all the hard-won truths shared here daily. I hope you have as well!


-Speck
Logged
Enabler
Ambassador
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
What is your relationship status with them: Married - Cohabitating
Posts: 2138



« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2018, 04:20:28 AM »

I couldn't tell in what you shared if she had a bad childhood (seems doubtful if she keeps going back to her mother/father -- but at 40+?).   It seems to be somewhat hallmark in this area for BPD people to have something traumatic or otherwise noteworthy in their .   Also -- was she a professional victim during all of these years?   

It is NOT uncommon at all for kids from abused parents to go back to the very parents who abused them. Many adult children blame themselves for the abuse and yern to gain the connection with their parents they failed to have when they were younger. Many make excuses for the abuse and their parents behaviour, even when they can verbalise that the abuse was wrong and inexcusable (e.g. mother stroking daughters hair whilst father raped her). A great read on this topic is Toxic Parents... .huge eyeopener for me. It's astonishing how the mechanics of a dysfunctional family works and how all players are kept in check.
Logged

I Am Redeemed
Senior Ambassador
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
What is your relationship status with them: Separated, divorce not filed yet
Posts: 1170



« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2018, 09:00:06 AM »

So sorry for what you are going through, Speck.

I think it is great that you have a counselor. It's good to have an objective and skilled person to help you navigate the aftermath of a difficult, emotional situation. I really love the list you posted. I immediately recognized my uBPDh ( yep, that was him. That too. And that one. yeah... .wow, that one was me.  )
Disclosure: When I started dating my uBPDh, I was living with my parents. And there was a reason why: I was struggling with a substance abuse disorder and major depressive disorder, for which I had just gotten out of treatment. NOT the right time to get into a r/s. Probably why I saw the  Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post) in my uBPDh but ignored them. Seven years later, I have progressed and matured emotionally. UBPDh has not. I am no longer willing to have poor boundaries and allow abusive treatment. I am learning, with the help of this site, among other things, how to do that effectively.
I wish you all the best as you move forward. Hopefully you can find peace of mind and a sense of relief when it's all said and done. Waiting for the next push/pull cycle is no way to live. There is no quality of life in that.
God bless and take care, Speck.

I Am Redeemed
Logged

It seemed the best thing to be up and go.
Up was the heartening and the strong reply.
The heart of standing is we cannot fly.
--William Empson,1940
Speck
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
What is your relationship status with them: Divorced since Mar 2018
Posts: 610



WWW
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2018, 10:12:10 AM »

It is NOT uncommon at all for kids from abused parents to go back to the very parents who abused them. Many adult children blame themselves for the abuse and yern to gain the connection with their parents they failed to have when they were younger.

This is such an important point and contribution, Enabler. I do think that there is a bit of this dynamic going on with my uBPDw and her parents, as if she's trying to make sure the story turns out right, or something.  But my uBPDw is also a magnificent user of others' kindness, and thus, she has used her parents for years as free babysitters, free short-term storage, free meals, free housing, etc.

Maybe it's a "2 birds, 1 stone" kind of thing... .
Logged
Enabler
Ambassador
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
What is your relationship status with them: Married - Cohabitating
Posts: 2138



« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2018, 10:15:10 AM »

But my uBPDw is also a magnificent user of others' kindness, and thus, she has used her parents for years as free babysitters, free short-term storage, free meals, free housing, etc.

Kindness and free stuff = Connection = Love (to a member of a dysfunctional family, even if it comes with strings attached)
Logged

Speck
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
What is your relationship status with them: Divorced since Mar 2018
Posts: 610



WWW
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2018, 10:38:32 AM »

I think it is great that you have a counselor. It's good to have an objective and skilled person to help you navigate the aftermath of a difficult, emotional situation.

Thank you.  I feel very fortunate to have one as well. I am going weekly, and as I begin to feel better, I can see myself moving the frequency back to every 2 weeks. My T is not pushy and doesn't seem to have a driving agenda with me, which is good.

Excerpt
I really love the list you posted. I immediately recognized my uBPDh ( yep, that was him. That too. And that one. yeah... .wow, that one was me.  )

Thank you for letting me know.  I posted it almost as an afterthought one night. I am glad that you find some value in it that helps you see things in a new way.  I have to refer back to it sometimes, too.

Excerpt
Seven years later, I have progressed and matured emotionally.

I've read your story.  Yes. You. Have.

Excerpt
I am no longer willing to have poor boundaries and allow abusive treatment. I am learning, with the help of this site, among other things, how to do that effectively.

Me neither! And, it's also humbling to admit, and I realized as I began this grief work, that resurrecting good boundaries and disallowing abusive treatment begins with me. I will own 50% of my relationship failing, but not 51%. This site is a breath of fresh air in that regard. Coupled with individual counseling, we should be unstoppable!  Smiling (click to insert in post)

Excerpt
Waiting for the next push/pull cycle is no way to live. There is no quality of life in that.

Indeed. Got to step off the rollercoaster.



Thank you so much, I Am Redeemed, for all that you've shared with me. Day by day, we get a little stronger... .


-Speck
Logged
WTL
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Other
What is your relationship status with them: Dissolved
Posts: 2585



« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2018, 11:01:15 AM »

Speck, that list would’ve done me well in the not so distant past. Thanks for sharing that. And I attest! #5!
Logged

“Adversity can destroy you, or become your best seller.”
-a new friend
Speck
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
What is your relationship status with them: Divorced since Mar 2018
Posts: 610



WWW
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2018, 11:13:46 AM »

And I attest! #5!

Man! Had I just listened to my head 10 years ago about #5, I wouldn't be in this mess.

Yes, NEVER date anyone who lives with her parents... .no matter how pretty she is.


-Speck
Logged
Speck
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
What is your relationship status with them: Divorced since Mar 2018
Posts: 610



WWW
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2018, 11:34:46 AM »

Kindness and free stuff = Connection = Love (to a member of a dysfunctional family, even if it comes with strings attached)

I totally agree and saw that in my own family of origin.  I had to "cut the strings" when I was 23 years-old in order to have a life of my own.  I understand this dynamic very well, but having grown up dominated by a NPD mother, I have to think that may be why I chose my BPD wife. I, too, have tried, albeit unconsciously, to make the story turn out right.

Whoa... .this gets deep.  Smiling (click to insert in post)


-Speck
Logged
Enabler
Ambassador
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
What is your relationship status with them: Married - Cohabitating
Posts: 2138



« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2018, 11:46:28 AM »

It’s very true that we seek out concisouly or sub consciously what we know... .the old adage of picking a woman like your mother. That being said I’m not sure I did pick a woman like my mother... .maybe she was in the idealisation phase! Then errr not.

Do not try and fight the family dynamic, they will turn on you like a pack of wolves if you try and shine a light on their dysfunction.

If this resonates with you read the free ebook preview of Toxic Parents, blue cover. Very interesting
Logged

tlc232
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 83



« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2018, 11:56:01 AM »

Man! Had I just listened to my head 10 years ago about #5, I wouldn't be in this mess.


It's sadly funny how we all grabbed onto #5!   But then I am seeing a HUGE connection between bad childhoods (really bad) and people really damaged by this disorder... .    hmmmmm.

Logged

I only have one heart to give and one mind to lose -- I choose to fall in love with someone who will take both...
tlc232
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 83



« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2018, 12:21:27 PM »

Excerpt
I'm sorry you're experiencing guilt. If you don't mind sharing, I'm curious, what is it that you feel guilty about?

This has been the worst part of it for me (and I think he has relied heavily on this which is what made this 14 years, vice many less).  I think more about other people and their feelings way before my own.  I know it is self-induced and a big part that I am working on now.  Whether it be the ability to take care of yourself well (have been doing that since college without a safety net), make sound decisions, overcome bad luck, and take responsibility for your own actions ---- I felt that I had to fix things for him too because I had a wonderful mother (lost father very, very young to illness) and a better childhood.   

Now that I look back -- mine was wrought with hurdles too, but instead of using them for excuses, I learned and overcame on my own.   

I'm big on treating people the way you want to be treated --- and when it doesn't happen with someone you have known and done SO MUCH FOR (as I am reading many of us have experienced!), I question what I did wrong first.   The last straw for me was after doing so much for this person that my own life was completely non-existent and I came home late from a hard day's work to hear again "you never do anything for me" ... .instead of being the little hamster that gets back on the wheel only to get flung to the side of the cage (AGAIN), I finally put my foot down for ME (not my normal style with those close to me).   You know what that got me - a violent rage of "how dare you" -- because the pattern was finally broken and instead of going back and saying "I'm sorry" -- I said "I deserve better -- sick or not"... .changed locks... .put up walls and starting the rebuilding process.   That's when the barrage of what I had done to him really poured out.    I mentally unplugged from listening.   It's helping.
 
I don't tell him that I have guilt for not taking more -- but I'm working on that.   If I made a list of all of the things I have done to help, you all would think I was insane.   It is what I am working on the most with the T -- because when I say it out loud, it doesn't make sense.   It's something of a rooting for the underdog issue as the source of my guilt, and wanting to help them have a great present and future since the past was wrought with pain.    It works great with rescue dogs... .but not so well with a SO with BPD... .  Smiling (click to insert in post)     ugh... .   





Logged

I only have one heart to give and one mind to lose -- I choose to fall in love with someone who will take both...
Speck
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
What is your relationship status with them: Divorced since Mar 2018
Posts: 610



WWW
« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2018, 12:24:49 PM »

Do not try and fight the family dynamic, they will turn on you like a pack of wolves if you try and shine a light on their dysfunction.

Oh, I haven't tried to do anything like that with my wife's folks... .they've been nothing but good to me. And, further... .to what end? I'd rather not open up that can of worms.

Excerpt
If this resonates with you read the free ebook preview of Toxic Parents, blue cover. Very interesting

I just did.  Yikes! 
Logged
Speck
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
What is your relationship status with them: Divorced since Mar 2018
Posts: 610



WWW
« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2018, 12:29:37 PM »

It's sadly funny how we all grabbed onto #5!   But then I am seeing a HUGE connection between bad childhoods (really bad) and people really damaged by this disorder... .   hmmmmm.

Yes. You are right. It is sad. When I was dating the woman who would later become my wife, when she gave me directions to her house, and I realized that it was her parents' house, I remember thinking at the time, "Oh. This is going to be interesting."

It has been. But not worth the lesson.


-Speck
Logged
spero
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 225


*beep beep!*


« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2018, 12:38:50 PM »

I totally agree and saw that in my own family of origin.  I had to "cut the strings" when I was 23 years-old in order to have a life of my own.  I understand this dynamic very well, but having grown up dominated by a NPD mother, I have to think that may be why I chose my BPD wife. I, too, have tried, albeit unconsciously, to make the story turn out right.

Hi there Speck,

I'm sorry to see that you've endured so much over the many years. On the flip side, you are displaying a good measure of resilience in your current predicament. I've endured emotional abuse for about 7 months and can no longer do so, as much as i love my uBPDexGF, i've decided to remove myself from the equation to stop perpetuating bad behaviour and what has been reduced to a toxic relationship that doesnt build each other up, but more of one that feeds the supply of my ex.

It must have been very frustrating, and probably over the years, your heart might have gone numb through all the cycles, moments of crazies etc. I firmly believe in therapy and the benefits of processing with a professional of you have the means and resources to do so. I dabble too much in psychology for my own good, and i must say that why i had allowed myself to be in a progressively abusive relationship had alot to do with what we call "Family of Origin" issues or FoO in psych terminology, my mum isnt outwright NPD, but she does display a high degree of narcissistic tendencies. That might be a good place to start asking ourselves, and well, to better ourselves if we desire or acknowledge the need to.

Now, with regards to this... .i'm not sure if someone else has already responded to you on this

Excerpt
I'm afraid that she is just going to drag the divorce process out.  How long should I wait to prompt her to get on the ball to sign and file the divorce documents?  I do not plan to be an ass about it, but I don't wish for her to run the clock on this thing, and here I'll sit two years from now still married to a person who doesn't give a flying fig about me.

Just looking for a general consensus.  Any ideas?

I'm afraid that you might not want to hear this, but i doubt there will ever be a good time per se, the more pertinent question would be, when are you ready to get out? Unfortunately, i don't think it would be to your benefit to consider waiting out for her, knowing obviously that at this point, your partner won't care. But i must say, when you do make a move, do it quick and swiftly, get prepared and if you can, do it covertly so that once your divorce is official, you'd be able to leave faster than a flash of lightning.

Ive seen my ex lose it, her meltdown. I suppose you might have had your fair share, and right now you might want to prioritise yourself, your safety and your daughter. A person with BPD will certainly understand "consequences" and the reality of divorce... may throw her into a state of panick, or dysregulation... .if the stakes are high. It is not in their reality think we might actually leave them, especially after a long relationship which has a fair amount of recycling, enmeshment or even trauma bonding. Just be prepared, you might want to take serious precautions. If need be, keep your handphone with you at all times, as an audio recording device or even video recording device. Doing this might save your life, prevent you for getting an RO or even prevent you from being thrown in jail.

I don't know about you, but laws in most countries will always defend women first. And if your partner displays extreme BPD symptoms, then you might expect gas lighting, and some i've read, had their BPD partners call the cops on them and have them sent to jail or on RO. Men will be at a disadvantage if you told them that you didn't beat her up and there were "convenient" scars on her. So i'm just thinking of all the consequences and possible scenarios which might come out of your "Ultimatum". Don't use an ultimatum which you are not going to follow through. It will only make things worse.

I suppose this is for you, the point of no return. So i wish you luck and i wish for your safe resolution.

Takecare,
spero.
Logged
Speck
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
What is your relationship status with them: Divorced since Mar 2018
Posts: 610



WWW
« Reply #27 on: February 19, 2018, 12:51:53 PM »

Hello, again, tlc232,

I think more about other people and their feelings way before my own.

I totally understand this impulse. 

Excerpt
Now that I look back -- mine was wrought with hurdles too, but instead of using them for excuses, I learned and overcame on my own.

Same.   

Excerpt
I'm big on treating people the way you want to be treated.

I am too, and that is my operating modus operandi and how I choose to conduct myself in this world.  It does get me into trouble, though, as I'm an easy sucker for others' problems. Even so, I still would rather just continue to treat others well, as I, too, would similarly like to be regarded.

Excerpt
I finally put my foot down for ME (not my normal style with those close to me).

I understand this, too.  It finally comes, doesn't it?
 
Excerpt
It's something of a rooting for the underdog issue as the source of my guilt and wanting to help them have a great present and future since the past was wrought with pain.

Okay. I understand more fully where this guilt is coming from. Thank you for sharing your story here. I am so glad you have a T to work through these feelings of guilt, as you probably know by now that they are very real for you, albeit, perhaps misplaced.

Some people just love being the underdog because doing so meets their secondary needs of being dependent on others. But... .there comes a time when the underdog needs to rise up and solve their own damn problems.

So... .your ex's anger is not really about YOU. I'm sure you see that. Maybe it comes and goes... .and that's okay... .but just keep processing your thoughts like you're doing.

Thank you for contributing to the conversation. 


-Speck





Logged
tlc232
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 83



« Reply #28 on: February 19, 2018, 01:18:03 PM »

Spero and Speck -

Don't you think the waiting on the divorce papers is yet another control mechanism?   I see a lot of that too -- they will do anything to control a situation.    I bet she sits forcing you to make contact on the matter.    I didn't get that control side of things at first, but I'm seeing that in mine and many others here.  It's about having control over you - no matter what/how. 

Can the lawyer just talk to lawyer and leave you out of any contact?   May help... .
Logged

I only have one heart to give and one mind to lose -- I choose to fall in love with someone who will take both...
Speck
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
What is your relationship status with them: Divorced since Mar 2018
Posts: 610



WWW
« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2018, 01:20:18 PM »

Hello, spero!

I've endured emotional abuse for about 7 months and can no longer do so, as much as i love my uBPDexGF, i've decided to remove myself from the equation... .

All I can say is well done. You've arrived at your tipping point. And... .you're also in the right place. I'm sorry for what brought you here.

Excerpt
It must have been very frustrating, and probably over the years, your heart might have gone numb through all the cycles, moments of crazies etc. I firmly believe in therapy and the benefits of processing with a professional if you have the means and resources to do so.

Yes, I have been through the wringer for a decade with this woman. Therapy and bpdfamily helps.

Excerpt
I dabble too much in psychology for my own good, and i must say that why i had allowed myself to be in a progressively abusive relationship had a lot to do with what we call "Family of Origin" issues... .

I have no doubt that I chose my wife because of my own FoO issues.  No doubt.

Excerpt
I'm afraid that you might not want to hear this, but i doubt there will ever be a good time per se, the more pertinent question would be, when are you ready to get out?

Ha! Now! 

My wife left me to go live with her parents in November 2017. The home we once shared was paid-in-full by me before we got married, and therefore, it is solely my property, so that's where I live. She has totally abandoned the relationship/home/marriage and is no longer in close physical proximity to me. Three weeks after she left, I installed a brand new, solid-oak front door (w/ brand new locks), and named the door "Healthy Boundaries."

Six days after the left me, she emailed me divorce documents to review and sign. I did so. I'm still waiting for her to sign and file. She hasn't yet done so, and, although I wonder why, it doesn't matter. If she hasn't done so by March 5th, then I will file. I am trying to give her time to get her actions in line with her stated intentions (divorcing me), but if she can't manage it by March, then, I will have to be the adult. As always.

Thank you so much for all your concerns about my safety.  I just wanted you to know that I am safe, she's not able to physically hurt me, nor can she claim a bogus DV charge against me, as I don't interact with her whatsoever.


-Speck
Logged
Pages: [1] 2  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Links and Information
CLINICAL INFORMATION
The Big Picture
5 Dimensions of Personality
BPD? How can I know?
Get Someone into Therapy
Treatment of BPD
Full Clinical Definition
Top 50 Questions

EDITORIAL DEPARTMENTS
My Child has BPD
My Parent/Sibling has BPD
My Significant Other has BPD
Recovering a Breakup
My Failing Romance
Endorsed Books
Archived Articles

RELATIONSHIP TOOLS
How to Stop Reacting
Ending Cycle of Conflict
Listen with Empathy
Don't Be Invalidating
Values and Boundaries
On-Line CBT Program
>> More Tools

MESSAGEBOARD GENERAL
Membership Eligibility
Messageboard Guidelines
Directory
Suicidal Ideation
Domestic Violence
ABOUT US
Mission
Policy and Disclaimers
Professional Endorsements
Wikipedia
Facebook

BPDFamily.org

Your Account
Settings

Moderation Appeal
Become a Sponsor
Sponsorship Account


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2019, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!