How bad is this PAS?

[scraps66]

My relationship with my 13yo son continues to spiral to an unhealthy place.  Conversely my exuBPDNPDw has managed to create S13 to be very much like her bf.  Picking up the same hobbies - cooking, dressing like him, etc.

I know the rules say not to take things personally, but my will power to do this is all but exhausted.  What I deal with now and for some time is that anything that is done at my house is not right.  The very nice bike I have for S13 is "not as good as the bike at mom's," he scoffs at the close I buy him making any little excuse to not wear what I buy him.  Lately it's my cooking.  Yesterday I allowed S13 to make breakfast, he's making bacon with an open pan.  I tell him to put a lid on it and leave it alone.  He was standing there with tongs trying to press the strips into the pan.  I tell him, "put a lid on it and leave it alone. You can prepare your eggs while you wait."  His response, "that's not how you make bacon."  I fly off the handle.

He and his brother rave about the soup the bf makes.  I've made chicken soup a few times trying to meet the expectations.  I've made good soup.  I don't make it like the bf does, but it tastes I'm sure just as good.  He won't eat it or very reluctantly takes a few forks full and leaves it.  So I allow him to make the soup, I tell him I'll go to the store to pick up the ingredients.  He asks if he can go because, "to make sure you get the right things."  So then while he's cooking he is texting the bf that he is making soup and that "dad's soup was mediocre at best and not up to S13's standards."  Then goes on to say that the only thing I did to help was open a jar. 

On the other hand, S13 isn't doing that well with his behavior at school.  He just completed a 10 day suspension due to taking a knife to school to address what he perceived as a bullying incident.  We now have a court hearing.  Completing his homework is a struggle.  He doesn't record his assignments himself so his mother TEXTS him exactly what he has to do.  I have argued that he should be keeping track of his own work.  Ex does not listen and I assume because this is but one example of creating herself as the key caregiver.  It is difficult for me to get him to do anything and I really don't enjoy my time with him.  It's become a struggle for me and it is affecting my current relationship and my health.

[toomanydogs]

Hi Scraps,
  This sounds very difficult. Is there a way not to personalize the food and cooking? I know it's hard; however, to me it seems that the bigger issue is your son's behavior at school, and if there's a way for you not to personalize his apparent rejection of the way you cook and food shop, it might be easier for you to be there for him with the school situation.
TMD

[scraps66]

I don't know if there is a way, but it definitely needs to be done.  I ma taking things personally with him.  School issues are difficult because we have shared parenting and mother is constantly trying to do the opposite of what I suggest.  Right now I have agreed to a psychiatric eval for S13 due to this last suspension.  It's his 9th in three years.  Mother claims the eval is "unnecessary" but will consent if I think differently.  What typically happens in these situations is mother will elude to S13 about what I'm doing and I'm made to look like the bad guy.  So I'm not yet sure about ho to approach this situation but thinking like you're suggesting about using school as an opportunity for me to shine.

[livednlearned]

Picking up the same hobbies - cooking, dressing like him, etc.

Ouch.  

I know the rules say not to take things personally, but my will power to do this is all but exhausted.

Not taking things personally is easier said than done.

What I deal with now and for some time is that anything that is done at my house is not right.  The very nice bike I have for S13 is "not as good as the bike at mom's," he scoffs at the close I buy him making any little excuse to not wear what I buy him.  Lately it's my cooking.  Yesterday I allowed S13 to make breakfast, he's making bacon with an open pan.  I tell him to put a lid on it and leave it alone.  He was standing there with tongs trying to press the strips into the pan.  I tell him, "put a lid on it and leave it alone. You can prepare your eggs while you wait."  His response, "that's not how you make bacon."

 

Childress says typical parenting tools are no longer available to us as targeted parents. It sounds like there is some of this going on in your parenting with S13, wanting to use an approach that should work, but doesn't, because S13 is alienated. He is believing a distorted narrative, and it's frustrating that you can't convince him of the counter-narrative.

This is a hard question: Does it matter how S13 makes bacon and eggs? 

It might be hard to stand and watch him make eggs the wrong way, and to hear him compare you to his step father. That's your stuff to manage, and it's hard. Really hard. What do you usually do when you feel triggered? What happens physically? Think of a time when you felt triggered and handled it in a way that felt skillful, where you didn't lose control. What was working?

It's possible that the step dad is a good cook. It sucks that S13 keeps saying this. I would be hurt too.

What if you just said, "He sounds like a good cook. I like the way I cook, I guess I feel a little competitive, which is kinda funny. I'm glad you're interested in making your own breakfast and taking an interest in cooking."

With alienated kids, anything that has a whiff of dominance-submission is going to backfire. It's hard to listen to the grandiose BS, and it comes down to not letting it get under your skin. In DBT, there is something called opposite-action, where you do the opposite of what you usually do. Sometimes the hardest part is recognizing and labeling your emotion, and then validating it -- it's ok you feel that way, anyone would. Then redirecting it, gently, so you do the opposite.

On the other hand, S13 isn't doing that well with his behavior at school.  He just completed a 10 day suspension due to taking a knife to school to address what he perceived as a bullying incident.  We now have a court hearing.  Completing his homework is a struggle.  He doesn't record his assignments himself so his mother TEXTS him exactly what he has to do.  I have argued that he should be keeping track of his own work.  Ex does not listen and I assume because this is but one example of creating herself as the key caregiver.  It is difficult for me to get him to do anything and I really don't enjoy my time with him.  It's become a struggle for me and it is affecting my current relationship and my health.

My SO feels the same way about his son (18). SO drove 4.5 hours to see S18, who then refused to come out of the apartment because it was too cold. S18 treats SO like he's a second-class citizen. S18 seems to be on the autism spectrum, although with recent changes in the DSM, he might be labeled pervasive developmental delay (PDD). You can tell something is different about him, but interpersonally, a lot of his cognitive distortions seem like severe alienation.

SO now uses a combination of leverage (with uBPD ex) and questions (with S18) to manage the relationship.

Have you read the ju-jitsu parenting guide that Childress wrote? That's what SO uses, and it seems to be helping.

[toomanydogs]

For the past three years, I've worked really hard on not personalizing what my soon-to-be-ex did/does. Really really hard. When my kids were little (they're in their 30s now), I rarely personalized what they did, but 1) I had full custody of my kids when my first H and I divorced, 2) Small kids (under 18) generally don't get to me in that way. However, when they turned 18, I did personalize what they did, and it was difficult for me to pull back.

When I personalized what they'd say or do to me, I got my feelings hurt, and I wasn't effective. My problem was that I thought that when they hit 18, they'd interact with me as if we were all adults. Even now, when they're in their 30s, we don't interact like we're all the same age. (Not sure why I'm mentioning this.)

Your post resonated with me because my granddaughter is experiencing difficulty in school--behavioral. And I start panicking (not to say you're panicking) and then I can't think so well, and I can't figure out how to help her and my daughter.

You're in my thoughts,
TMD

[happendtome]

I dont have kids myself and my ex-s kids were under 10 (not problematic age), but i tell you what would i do. Im not a parent myself so i see things differently.

I would tell my son that if he wants to be with me then i will always welcome this and would be his friend, but if he doesnt want then he doesnt have to come either. Say that you are not angry to him, say that you understand him. Theres no point watching him not enjoying your soup and telling hows your ex-s boyfriends soup tastes better. Let him stay at home and eat his soup there.

Tell him that you are always there for him and ready to listen him, but say that he is a big man already and he will choose himself how he spends his time and what he does. Dont get involved, you cant win at the moment. You are target for your son, for your ex and for your ex-s boyfriend. Right now they can all blame you, but if you step out, then they have to find new one who to blame.

How long your ex has been with her boyfriend? Few years?
If you stay away, that relationship will soon start to sink. They dont have common enemy anymore and honestly, there are few men who like teenage boys, if theyre not their own blood.

But im not a parent and i can understand that this may seem very radical decision. But your son is also a bully, so you cant be so soft anymore. 13 is not a kid nowadays.

[livednlearned]

I dont have kids myself and my ex-s kids were under 10 (not problematic age), but i tell you what would i do. Im not a parent myself so i see things differently.

Parental alienation is considered severe child abuse

www.drcachildress.org/asp/admin/getFile.asp?RID=24&TID=6&FN=pdf

It is considered equal to severe physical violence.

[scraps66]

Have you read the ju-jitsu parenting guide that Childress wrote? That's what SO uses, and it seems to be helping.

LnL, I do have it and have been reading it - I got it from one of your posts and it is right one.  But so difficult to do.  I find myself having to review it everytime an episode comes up that is appropriate to apply.

I am trying to get myself healthier all around to better deal with all of this crap. 

[scraps66]

I dont have kids myself and my ex-s kids were under 10 (not problematic age), but i tell you what would i do. Im not a parent myself so i see things differently.

I would tell my son that if he wants to be with me then i will always welcome this and would be his friend, but if he doesnt want then he doesnt have to come either. Say that you are not angry to him, say that you understand him. Theres no point watching him not enjoying your soup and telling hows your ex-s boyfriends soup tastes better. Let him stay at home and eat his soup there.

Tell him that you are always there for him and ready to listen him, but say that he is a big man already and he will choose himself how he spends his time and what he does. Dont get involved, you cant win at the moment. You are target for your son, for your ex and for your ex-s boyfriend. Right now they can all blame you, but if you step out, then they have to find new one who to blame.

How long your ex has been with her boyfriend? Few years?
If you stay away, that relationship will soon start to sink. They dont have common enemy anymore and honestly, there are few men who like teenage boys, if theyre not their own blood.

But im not a parent and i can understand that this may seem very radical decision. But your son is also a bully, so you cant be so soft anymore. 13 is not a kid nowadays.

Ex has been with bf for about 9 yrs.  She lassooed him during our divorce, pretty quickly after she booted me from the house.  Had him move into the house while I lived elsewhere.  He was a tactical target, best friend of one of my neighbor's.  So she always has an excuse to be in my hood.  And the best friend's son is close with my 10yo son.

I have seriously thought about what you're suggesting.  My issues with ex and S13 do get in the way of my current r/s which I don't want to lose.  So I have thought if me and SO get married, if S13 was to continue to be an issue I would seriously consider giving up my custody for my own health and well-being.

Incidentally, ex claims to be very religious, bin with the bf nine years - but they're not married!   

[Panda39]

Hi scrapps,

My SO also experienced parental alienation.  When I met my SO he was separated and was in the middle of his 2 year divorce process.   We did not discover BPD until the end of that process and didn't discover this site until post divorce.  His ex had primary custody, he had every other weekend and dinner one night during the week.  His daughters were 9 and 13.

He got "the girls don't want to come over", "the girls don't want to see you", 'the girls don't want to talk to you on the phone'... .never encouraging the girls to see their dad (unless it was for something mom wanted).

The ex used every visit the girls had as an opportunity to use them as spies, they went through everthing in his house and reported back to their mother (down to what was in the refridgerator  ), they read his phone text messages, one daughter "borrowed" his computer (we are sure to try and hack into it), it took calling the police to get it returned.  We actually had a recording of D13 talking to her mom on the phone about D9 going through her father's closet... .   

Another story from that time... .the phone incident... .my SO was talking to his ex on the phone (mistake number 1) he got angry with her hung up and threw the cordless phone into the couch in the presence of his kids.  That became throwing the phone and it shattering in a million pieces, then became throwing the phone at the kids, then became not allowing the kids to call their mother, then it became not allowing the girls to leave their dads apartment.  Thus we see the progression of the ex's BPD brain at work.  The uBPDxw was not present but that is what happened (in her mind), the kids being enmeshed, being alienated, walking on eggshells, agreed with their mother's story.  Child abuse charges were filed and my SO had to appear in court.

He showed up with his intact phone, his ex and kids no where to be found, the court was told that the ex was ill (mom & younger daughter were out getting a manicure  ).  My SO told his story and the charges were dropped but he had to attend therapy for anger management.

If he had been convicted this could have meant supervised visits but no one would have been able to pay for someone to supervise... .by their own actions those girls could have lost their dad.

I loving this man, wanting to protect him, being ignorant of BPD and parental alienation only saw how much these people were hurting him.  I would ask him are you sure you want to be around these kids?  Maybe he should just let them live happily ever after with their mother that they clearly loved more than him. 

He would ask me if I would give up on my son under the same circumstances... .no way in hell!  One thing he also would tell me back then was "if I let this go now, that the problems will revisit me later and will be worse".  He was right of course.  He kept contact with his daughters, let them know he wanted to see them even when they refused to see him, his ex-wife didn't/doesn't drive so he drove them everywhere, he suffered through horribly uncomfortable visits (he and the girls now call this period "the dark times", he continued to be him... .be their father.  The war lessened after the conflict of the divorce, he was awarded 5days a week custody plus one weekend a month custody and things began to improve in his relationship with his daughters.

A couple of years ago the girls mother basically screwed them both over, D21 had gone NC with her mother and D17 is LC. 

So as bad as things feel now remember it is only "now", things are fluid, things change... .it's your job to continue to be there you are their dad (new man is not and will not ever be your kids dad).  It may appear that you aren't as important as mom's new man but keep in mind what your son is probably having to negotiate in his mom's house.  Remember what you know about BPD... .splitting... .new man might be the best things since sliced bread right now but that might not always be the case.  Remember that you are doing everything you can to help and support your kids... .things might not always be successful or easy but you are doing the hard work of being a dad.  You clearly love your son and although he might not know it, or appreciate it you are a good dad doing your best. 

Easier said than done but try not to compete with new man just be you.  Try and make it about teaching your son another way, not a "better" than new man way. 

Next time your son is doing something he learned in his mom's house that you know how to do in a "better" way... .tell him hey I know another way to do that and show him and let him decide how he wants to do it.

Hang in there and remember your son is 13 which is hard no matter what... .Middle School is tough you are becoming more independent (which is probably harder with a BPD mom) and discovering who you are.

Take Care,
Panda39

[happendtome]

My ex had also difficult relationship to her ex husband with whom she had kids. They both lived in different countries so kids couldnt see dad very often.
I dont want to go details, but i remember that she said those same things what i have read here. Kids dont want to see dad, they dont like him etc. I remember when kids dad sent presents to the kids, then my ex said that those are just some cheap presents. Im not expert myself on kids toys, but i thought those were some creative toys and kids liked to play with them. I didnt say anything though, it would have lead to some heart breaking lecture that im taking her granted and im not there to support her.
One kid had also autism spectrum, but he was very nice and good boy with good heart. They had nanny, so she was taking care of them. As i heard later, then nanny left them, there were some problems with my ex and my replacement as far as i know.

[livednlearned]

My issues with ex and S13 do get in the way of my current r/s which I don't want to lose.  So I have thought if me and SO get married, if S13 was to continue to be an issue I would seriously consider giving up my custody for my own health and well-being.

By giving up custody, I'm guessing you mean letting S13 choose if he wants to spend time with you?

Your situation is similar to what happened with my SO. Three years ago, his uBPD ex wife moved 4.5 hours away and took then SD15 with her.

SO could have fought the relocation, but his son was already well on his way to relatively severe alienation. SO drives up there every 3-4 weeks to spend an hour or so with him.

It's tough, what you're going through.

[whirlpoollife]

SES when I read this I got  PTSD thoughts . My xh was ,during all of marriage ,and is , very competitive with me.  Anything I did in my past or present life from education to cooking to activites with kids etc. he let me know he was better or he would redo the activity with the kids... .and make it grander ,bigger . Or he would take away and break items that kids and I used ... .like a slide I had going down to a slip and slide.  He took the slide apart and slip and slide disappeared.   Without me in his presence after seperation, , the kids took the brunt of that which filtered back to me with insults to me from them. I was married long enough to know its xh's words not teenage words.  Cut like a knife.   
What helped a little was fight fire with fire. Not me but necessary. When I would get an insult on whatever, I would lie somewhat.   I would say ,  oh really I'm sorry to hear that I have friends who just said the opposite that ... .the food was great best they ever had, or I look fantastic that it's about time I dress this way, or they plan on taking their kids to xyz place etc.
And not go into any more than that. 
It did not make the PAS go away but it lessened the negative comments in both minds.

[soundofmusicgirl]

scraps66. To answer your question of how bad PAS is: it is bad!

I posted in another thread that we went from having a wonderful 4 week summer visit with my stepchildren (both 11 year old boys) last year and then visiting them in their home town in September last year and having lots of fun with them, to now them hanging up on my their father (my husband) and yelling at him over the phone that he did not treat them properly when they were with us this summer. When questioned what exactly they did not find proper treatment they will mention that my hubby did not let them hunt bugs every second of the day and that he told them that they need to give him the pin code for the iPhones that mom sent them with. The problem with that of course was that mom had told them that dad nor stepmom are allowed to touch the phones and they are not allowed to divulge the pincode to us. My hubby reasoned with them about phone safety etc (this was the first time they had ever had their own phones) and then let it go and sent an email to our lawyer which sent an email to BPDxw lawyer to tell mom that she needs to supply dad with the pin code. Needless to say she never did.
That incident was on the first day of their 4 week summer visit with us. After that we had plenty of fun and many wonderful memories.

But for the past 6 weeks all they do when my husband calls them is yell at him saying: we are not coming to visit (the country where we live) this summer and you can't force me. And then they hang up. When my husband tries to change the subject, they hang up. When he tried to talk to the "all bad child" yesterday who actually wanted to talk to him the "all good child" (moms confidant and partner in crime) came in and told the "all bad child": do not let him change the subject.
And then hung up for his brother.

This all was of course proceeded with years of BPDxw telling the boys that ":)ad is not smart because his parents smoked in the house" and ":)ad does not love you anymore" and "i am looking for a replacement Dad for you" and ":)ad never took care of you while you were babies and he did everything wrong" .
Last summer the "all good child" told us that: mom always tells him the truth and you don't.

So in summary: PAS is bad and it really turns the kids into your worst enemy.
My husband also takes things personally. It is hard not to. It is a way for the BPDxw to continually abuse you through the children. And of course also abusing the kids too.

I completely understand how frustrating it is. I am "just" the stepmom and the first couple of day of having my stepsons with us is really like having an "enemy" in the home. So far it usually took them 2 days before they forgot to repeat all of moms messages to us. I thought that it was going to get better now that they are getting older. But apparently mom has far more reach then I thought. She managed to turn them to hate my husband within 2 months.

[soundofmusicgirl]

ohh... and to the cooking part: my stepsons are EXTREMELY picky eaters. In fact they are on their way to have some eating disorder. Anything we ever did to help them was undermined by mom.

Needless to say that BPDxw never gave us any list or ideas of what the boys like to eat. She does not cook much. Last summer ss1 (moms confidant) told us that mom makes a special ABC noodle soup with a secret ingredient. So we said that he can cook it for us. He did not tell us the secret ingredient and then proceeded to tell us that it was not as good as moms. We frequently encourage the boys to tell us what mom cooks and ask her to supply us with recipes. But of course that never happens. She made them believe that we "force feed " them. ss2 was declaring that to every adult in his reach before he came to visit us last summer. He said he was afraid that we would "force feed" him again.