How was the beginning of your relationship different from the long run?

[CautiousHope]

Hi everyone!

As I am typing this message out, I realize how long it's getting - so I'll include a short version of my question without details here at the top:

I want to know how early in your relationship your partner's BPD showed up? Was it obvious from the start? How red were the red flags? I am trying to get a sense of how likely it is that I can trust that this is more or less a baseline I can come to expect from my new relationship or if this is more likely to be his "best behavior?"

I am in a very complicated situation (which I'll save for another time) with a man that I met online. It is long distance and we have not met. This relationship is brand new, about 4 months, but of course we talk and video pretty much constantly, so it's much more involved than any past internet friendship I've ever had. I have no intention of meeting or taking things to the next level unless I can clearly see him making tangible efforts toward getting help, so in the meantime, this is going to remain the nature of our interaction and I would like to do my best to continue to support him and gently nudge him toward wanting that goal for himself. He is not diagnosed, he claims to have never been in any kind of therapy for any reason, but I strongly believe he has BPD. Our meeting and beginning of our relationship was a whirlwind, of course, dizzyingly quick and intense and exciting. He grew attached immediately. I went back and read our first interaction and he had already expressed that he was anxious I would disappear on him (in a joking way, but hindsight... .) He expressed extreme jealousy within a couple of days of our meeting, I don't tolerate jealous or controlling behavior from anyone, autonomy is very important to me - and I told him so. Still, his struggling was obvious. He has a drinking problem, which is what I initially thought was going on with him.

He is an artist and it's clear in his work that he struggles with feeling like he is wearing a mask and like he is always weighing whether he is good/evil. There is a lot of focus on duality and good vs bad, plus a lot of things that suggest a feeling of being multiple people or having another person inside of his head, his art is actually quite brilliant if you look at it as an expression of the mind of a person with BPD. He would never admit to it, but it's clear that he pours his heart and his darkest feelings into his work. I have never seen him rage. I can gather from stories that he tells me that he does and has, but I have never seen it. I have seen several breakdowns into despair and tears, but I have never seen him angry, or if he is triggered into anger he will end the conversation immediately. I know that he has been angry and that I have even made him very angry, but the result is that he will sort of disappear or go quiet for a while and then come back when he is calmed down. Usually, at that point, I can tell he keeps me at arm's length and will come off a little annoyed, but he is not outwardly raging or anything like that. What happens in that time, I don't know. I know sometimes he just drives (I suspect dangerously.) Sometimes he makes art. One instance where I really upset him, he made a terrifying piece of artwork that was clearly full of rage and frustration, but the next day he calmly told me that what I had said made him mad. I asked him on a later day about it and he said that is the angriest I will ever "see" him. I don't know if that's true, but I do trust that he at least believes it is true and I also made it a point to say that I thought it was cool that he chose to express his anger in such a constructive way and to tell him that I loved the piece (which I do.) If or when he lashes out at me, it's more in sharp passive aggressive comments than it is anger or anything truly hurtful. A good example: early on, I abruptly cut ties and accused him of stalking me (he didn't actually do anything wrong, I just panicked about his clinging and didn't understand what was going on, but he really did nothing to warrant such an intense reaction from me.) After a massive meltdown and us talking it through, he expressed then and again at a later date that he understood why I did that and that he knew I "did what I thought I had to do." Unexpected and mature (which is why I am interested in working on this, because he seems to have a lot of lucid moments in the midst of the chaos.) Most of the time he can't or won't acknowledge his own bad behavior, he will justify it or just ignore it completely, but every now and then he will take responsibility on his own and apologize. Another thing that interests me and keeps me hopeful. However, he still will make jabs occasionally about my accusing him of stalking, because it clearly hurt his feelings deeply and he does throw it in my face. So, that's a good example of the way he lashes out. His jealousy comes out in passive-aggressiveness, as well, but other times he will just clearly state what he is feeling. Most of the time he just seems to want his feelings validated. He has been married twice and does not speak terribly of his wives, though he never says anything positive, either. It's more of an apathy or disconnection than any kind of anger or hatred. He does say his 2nd wife (married almost a decade, so that in itself seems promising that he has some degree of functioning long term) is verbally abusive and hateful, but I have seen some evidence that this is at least partially true, so I don't know how much is embellished due to splitting or if she really could be abusive. He does seem like the type who might get stuck in an abusive situation, he is a people pleaser and I see him doing a lot of things for people around him where he feels unappreciated or is meeting expectations without any real return to him, he will try to put me in a position to do that to him where he almost wants me to use him, and I just can't get into that. I know that leads to resentment and I don't like treating other people that way. On the flip side, his joy is contagious and authentic and incredible. He is uplifting and full of genuine, heartfelt praise, he is talented at seeking out people's strengths and encouraging them. He is very empathetic toward children and animals - and me, as long as he isn't emotionally burnt out or overwhelmed in that moment - and thoughtful when he isn't spiraling. He is warm and intelligent and we communicate really well when the mood is right. He doesn't just tell me what I want to hear, but he listens to me and does his best to respect my boundaries. He often needs to be reminded of them, which you can tell he doesn't like, but he will also ask me to tell him again. He says he will learn, which I love about him. He regularly expresses that he wants to make sure that I feel safe, which I have never explicitly asked for, but it seems to be genuinely important to him. (in all seriousness, I think this is because it is terrifying to him to be perceived as dangerous or threatening and not because he really cares how I FEEL, but I'm okay with that as long as it's genuine.) He knows he has depression and anxiety, but I can tell that anything "worse" than that makes him uncomfortable to consider. I pick up from him that he is really offended when people make him "think he's crazy." He rationalizes a lot and is big on being "strong," and he says therapy just isn't something that people around him do. He says you lean on friends and family, therapy isn't socially accepted where he's from, but he also says he wants to "get better" and "grow" together and he did say once that he would feel better about going into therapy or treatment for his anxiety if he knew he could depend on me to  be supportive while he does that. That was one fleeting comment, but it struck me as sincere in that moment. 

About me: I was diagnosed with BPD when I was a young teenager (I'm in my late 30s now) and that diagnosis was removed/changed not long after it was given. I don't currently qualify for a BPD diagnosis, though I probably did at that point in my life, but I do have C-PTSD and I am highly sensitive, so it makes it incredibly easy for me to empathize with pwBPD, it's also how I so quickly recognized what was going on with him. I am just finally going into therapy for my own childhood trauma (I've been in therapy off and on for 20 years addressing the rest of my trauma - but childhood never made the cut), so I keep hoping that maybe I can nudge him into following in my footsteps. I keep thinking that maybe if he sees me facing my demons and if he sees therapy working for me, that maybe it will give him the courage to try it. I also recognize that it may not, but I see a lot of potential in him that he has what it takes to really improve his situation if he can just build himself up to face it. My biggest concern is that this is the honeymoon phase and that this is the BEST case scenario and that I am in for a rude awakening. I am very good at placing and enforcing boundaries, I do not take ___ from anyone, I am nonconfrontational and always conscious of not being dismissive of people, I am good at recognizing and validating feelings. I am very compassionate. He has told me more than once that he is more comfortable with me than anyone he has ever met (which may be splitting or it may be an exaggeration, but the truth is that I can't even count how many people have told me this in my lifetime.) I realize that there will likely be phases, especially if he starts unpacking his trauma, where things will get worse. But I really am just trying to gauge how likely it is that his baseline is worse than this. Because I can brace myself for some hits to my ego, but I can not invest myself if it's going to be a constant barrage of attacks all of the time, I am not ready for that. I know no one can tell me who he is or what he will be like over time, but I'm just looking to get a general feel of how these relationships tend to pan out over time.

Thanks so much for reading, I know that was really long. I appreciate your insight.

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[stixx44]

Red flag showed up only two weeks in.  We had met twice in late Dec 2016.  I had already made plans for New Year’s Eve.  She invited me to a party.  I politely told her I had plans already and would see her on New Year’s Day.

I got some snarky texts from her during New Year’s Eve about how she could see that my friends were more important than her.  Jealousy and possessiveness popped up right away.

We talked about it and I thought we cleared it up.  But the same thing kept happening whenever I had plans that did not involve her.  And it only got worse from there.

I ignored all flags and dove headlong into the craziest relationship I ever thought I’d be in.  I was too far gone emotionally to pull out.  Now I’m out by her wishes, and I’m finding my way back to normalcy.

If you can, don’t ignore.  Save yourself a lot of pain now.

[CautiousHope]

Thank you for your reply.

To be clear, I'm certainly not "ignoring," just observing and weighing at this point. I don't anticipate his jealousy or possessiveness will be cleared up or go away, that seems like an unrealistic expectation for me to have, it's a significant part of the disorder and I don't intend to change my life to accommodate his jealous. I do, however, intend to validate and respect his feelings, which are that he feels easily replaced if I spend time with other people. Which is not the case, but it's scary.

[Tattered Heart]

Hi CautiousHope,



I think it's wise of you to be cautious in your relationship. You seem pretty in tune with some of the nuances of BPD and how it seems to be expressed by your SO.

What are your hopes for this relationship? If he does not get help where do you see things heading? Is he pushing for a more permanent relationship?

My H and I met in a chat room (way back when the internet was only for nerds  ). We talked online for about 4 months, met face to face, and then were married by 10 months into the relationship. I did not know anything about BPD at the time, but I would guess that I started to see red flags around 3 months of us dating IRL. This was also about the time that our relationship stopped being a long distance relationship and began to be more permanent.

I'd say one of the most important things is to make sure that you have clear boundaries about what behavior you will and will not tolerate in a relationship and be willing to enforce those boundaries if needed. Validating goes a long way and keeping the ability to share what you are feeling is important too. Is this something you think would be easy to do or do you struggle with these things?

[CautiousHope]

My hopes for the "relationship" are to currently take it one day at a time without any escalation in the nature of our current status. In that time, my personal goals are to help urge him to lean into healthy coping skills he already has, to help him build his confidence and self esteem by encouraging him and demonstrating to him how to do that -we both struggle very seriously in this area, and so it is one way that we relate and connect, which gives me a good opening to address it with him unlike certain other behaviors. He lets me talk directly about this one, and I think that's important, because I think if he can build a little confidence in himself, he'll be more likely to be willing to try treatment. I think that I am uniquely suited to help him as far as being a non-professional relationship in his life (if he's ready to be helped) because I can understand him in a way that most people cannot. C-PTSD and BPD share a lot of core traits and so I can relate to his pain, which I think is validating and also healing for someone with BPD. Don't get me wrong, I don't think I can "fix" him or cure him or that I am his savior, nope, none of that. I just think that I have a good understanding of what it might take to nudge him in the right direction to be able to do that for himself and I also have seen consistent interest on his part in doing so, I think he's just too scared to make the leap. We are able to have constructive conversations, discuss boundaries, and work on problems together. We do those things pretty much every day. He seems to enjoy doing that, actually, and he will hold ME accountable if I fail to do so and he's usually right. Sometimes it's one-sided, he just wants his feelings validated, but more often than not I can clearly see that he is trying to digest what I'm telling him. He very much wants a more permanent and long term thing, which I had sort of played into that fantasy before I fully grasped what was happening - but now am holding much more tentatively since I can see the bigger picture.

Am I hopeful that he'll get into treatment and get better? Of course. It would be amazing if we could make this work. If it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen, I still want to do my best to help. I have read so many stories of people who seemed to be much worse off than him who made it into treatment and who are in recovery and they owe it to that one person who believed in them. And that's the thing, I really do believe in him. And I think that it comes from a reasonable place, I think he has shown a lot of evidence of wanting to get better, it's not just blind faith or some kind of infatuation. I really think he has what it takes to change things for himself, but I am not delusional and I understand how much of my own sanity is at risk by taking on this responsibility. (Which, let's be honest, was kind of thrust onto me -but now that I have it, I'm finding it very hard to walk away from him, because I truly do see that he is in pain and I think he really wants to get better.) For me, my worth is not invested in whether or not he can come out of this, I can't MAKE him get better or expect him to be someone he isn't. If the relationship fails and I need to leave because things have crossed the line, that's a reality I am going to accept. At this point, it seems too premature to give up hope, though. I'm just trying to brace myself and get an idea of what I should expect so to reduce being blindsided as much as possible.

I am excellent at establishing and reinforcing my boundaries. I have an extensive trauma history and I have learned to be very good at protecting myself without being hurtful to others (this is pretty much why I think I might actually be able to help him.) I don't take crap. If I feel threatened or pushed to my limit, I will put my foot down and I am consistent and firm, but gentle. And, also, he seems to been sincerely concerned about learning my boundaries. He notices if I am uneasy or uncomfortable and he will stop and ask me if I'm okay or what is wrong. He doesn't LIKE to hear boundaries, he takes them personally, but he repeatedly shows that he cares about them. It's a struggle, but I see real effort on his part. Sometimes it blows my mind that he has never been in therapy, because he actually has developed a lot of healthy mechanisms for dealing with his issues, it's just all sort of jumbled together with the rest of the mess.

I have my own issues with validation, so I am sensitive to that and I tend to give a lot of positive reinforcement and praise to the people around me. In all seriousness, I think I have a very realistic view of this situation and what I can more or less expect. I just don't have any long term experience, so it's hard for me to really gauge the likelihood that this is as good as it gets or as bad as it gets or somewhere in between. I am attached to him, attracted to him, and I care about him. In a perfect world, maybe some day we can be together, but at this point in time I really just want to help him, because it's the only way that any of that could ever possibly happen - and because I do sincerely care about him and hope that he can get the help he clearly needs. If I never see him make it to therapy, I hope that he can learn some healthier coping skills and better understanding of his feelings just from knowing and interacting with me, which might ease some of his torment. I really think if he can build his confidence a little bit, that will be what it takes to get him to make the leap. It just needs chipped away at little by little. In the meantime, he thanks me every day for still being there.

[CautiousHope]

I should have said that I feel like I'm getting into this with realistic expectations - but that's only knowing what I know. The internet is full of hope of recovery and remission and whatnot, but reaching out for help from actual people is really discouraging. Almost all stories feel the same and they all seem to be really bad. I am just trying to have a clear picture of what I'm getting myself into.

[Tattered Heart]

That's smart to look at things realistically because when you go in with high expectations, you'll find yourself starting to feel hopeless when/if your pwBPD never gets better. I absolutely think it's possible to have a good relationship with someone with BPD but it takes a lot of work, a lot of patience, and a lot of self care.

Our workshop on The Dos and Dont's of a BPD Relationship might help you look at some of the areas that can improve your relationship.

[CautiousHope]

Thank you, but I decided to go the complete opposite direction and go NC, since I anticipated this being the most optimistic place I would get a perspective - and it's pretty clear that this isn't going to happen.
But, I was going into it under the impression that things escalate in a progression or that they are all different, and I thought perhaps he wasn't one to do much outward raging? I am getting the feeling by the increasingly angry and accusatory texts I'm receiving as a result of my NC are a good indication that I am wrong.
Now I'm panicking and terrified. Ugh, I sent so many photos. I feel very stupid.

[CautiousHope]

Thank you, but I decided to go the complete opposite direction and go NC, since I anticipated this being the most optimistic place I would get a perspective - and it's pretty clear that this isn't going to happen.
But, I was going into it under the impression that things escalate in a progression or that they are all different, and I thought perhaps he wasn't one to do much outward raging? I am getting the feeling by the increasingly angry and accusatory texts I'm receiving as a result of my NC are a good indication that I am wrong.
Now I'm panicking and terrified. Ugh, I sent so many photos. I feel very stupid.

Whoops, I didn't mean "isn't going to happen" as in getting perspective in this forum, just that I felt more comfortable with the "run" option over the stay and see if he gets better thing.

[Perdita]

I can tell you exactly how far into it the BPD red flags appeared. It was 3 months into it. Hardly a day had gone by that I didn't see him. So I honestly thought I knew him quite well at that point.

Everything had been fine. No sign of trouble. Then he came home during his lunch break and told me it was over. No warning. Nothing. I was very much in shock and asked why. He proceeded in tearing everything apart about me. Everything.

 The entire time something seemed so off. Later I realised what it was. He had a little smile on his face the whole time as he told me everything that's not good enough about me - which was everything he could come up with. I was too upset to immediately process it all, but clearly recall that little smile. It went on for about 2 hours. That smile never left his face. Meanwhile I was so devastated that I was literally sitting on the floor.

The one red flag before this incident was that I realised early on that he lies a lot and over even small things. More than that, the lies could easily be uncovered in most cases. These were lies I heard him tell others and I remember thinking that if he can lie so easily to even his mother, then he won't hesitate lying to me either. Turns out I was right.

[pearlsw]

I want to know how early in your relationship your partner's BPD showed up? Was it obvious from the start? How red were the red flags? I am trying to get a sense of how likely it is that I can trust that this is more or less a baseline I can come to expect from my new relationship or if this is more likely to be his "best behavior?"

It showed up the first week but I had no idea what I was seeing. At worst I thought I'd met someone not quite ready to start a new relationship so I tried to keep things slow and gentle and make it as easy for him as I could... .Looking back he love bombed me but I also didn't know about that. Most men I've dated are excited to be dating me... .That's what dating is right? It didn't seem especially over the top, but looking back it was... .I just thought he said and did stuff because he comes from a culture where there is a lot of separation between men and women and he didn't know much about dating. I basically minimized or explained away a lot of stuff... .but I think I would have wanted to be involved anyway... .I had no idea where it would go or how hard it would be. If I had known the amount of pain I would endure I might have taken a pass on the whole thing... .