I need help understanding a typical pattern of idealizating and devaluing

[CautiousHope]

Hi all.

A brief summary: this is not a S/O, rather an online friend with whom I had a brief flirtation (which I regret so much, so many terrible decisions in that which are better left for another topic) but I do want to be his friend. He is not diagnosed, but pretty much shows every symptom and behavior associated with classic BPD as far as I can tell. We connected over our professional pages, we are both artists and that is initially what we bonded over and continue to bond over. He really hates that I "only" want to be friends, it causes him a great deal of distress because his tendency to idealize me involves a lot of sexual energy, but he still prefers friendship to me leaving entirely (at least so far.) We have only known each other about 6 months and the entire relationship has been a roller coaster. The "honeymoon" phase was rocky and full of arguments and confusing disagreements, passive aggressive comments and his fears about me leaving him were apparent from the very first time we spoke. There was no point where it didn't feel like he was kind of all over the place, one day I was the most amazing person on the planet, the next day he was convinced I never cared about him and that he was just some joke to me and that I was playing games with his head and so on and so forth. I cut contact with him twice, the first time when I finally started to realize that his clinging was making me uncomfortable (this was very early on) and I panicked and said some mean things and told him not to call me again. The only time he has ever said anything mean that is actually directed at me was to basically repeat what I had said about him over that call, which was that he was obsessive and came off as controlling and that it made me uncomfortable. After that, he sent me a long, devastating video message looking like a forlorn child and sharing all of these tragic details of his sadness and apologizing, which was heartbreaking, so naturally, I gave him another chance. .

The second time was after posting here asking for advice (and also scouring the rest of the internet for advice, pretty much all of which is: get out ASAP no matter what) and although I didn't feel confident in the decision, it seemed to be the only option, so I initiated NC out of the blue - blindsiding him and devastating him for no real reason, since he has never actually done anything to me aside from occasionally make a rude comment or be moody and stressful to listen to. The guilt devastated me. I think I lasted about 5 days before going back and re-reading months of our conversations and seeing that when he would become angry or irritated with me, he would remove himself every time, although he dwells in his sadness and self loathing a lot, the worst he ever doled out to me was passive aggressiveness which was so obviously an attempt to seek validation (he has since toned that way, way down since I have learned to not be invalidating). I am operating under the assumption that the abuse is coming, but what if it isn't? What if, at nearly 40 years old, he has adapted to spew that part of his feelings somewhere else? I had mentioned in my last thread, one time I really struck a raw nerve in him and he was both ashamed and furious - he made a very angry looking piece of art, and told me the next day that I had made him very mad with what I said. Is it possible for a person who has never been in therapy to find and cultivate a healthy outlet for their anger on their own?

I feel like I have been on a rollercoaster of idealization and devaluation the entire relationship, is that possible? I know that I have never been split "completely black," as I understand it, but he also seems to imply that he knows that could happen and that he is afraid of it. He is not aware of his issues, but certain things he says sound like he understands that he does it. He'll say things like "it takes a lot for me to give up on someone, but when I do, there's no turning back because it's too heavy on my heart" and "I want you to know that even when you left me, I never gave up on you" or "I really don't want to give up on you" or, most recently, he said "I am confused about what is going on between us and I'm really scared I will push myself all the way out and I really don't want to do that." But, on a regular basis, sometimes every day, he goes from thinking I am the human equivalent of sunshine to thinking I'm a manipulative person just toying with him for kicks. So, am I correct in understanding that I have been riding this pendulum back and forth, or am I still just waiting for the real devaluation phase to happen? Is it inevitable that it will escalate? It feels like so many stories I have read it seemed much more like they snap out of nowhere when everything seems great and then suddenly they hate you, but is that not always accurate? Is it just that the early back and forth is ignored or missed?

The thing about all of this is that I have no real hope of having any kind of deep or intimate connection with him now that I understand what he's struggling with. However, I couldn't cope with the guilt of traumatizing the guy by going NC out of the blue for no real reason, which I don't THINK was "FOG," I think it just felt like an unjustly cruel punishment for the simple reality that he's stressful to know. At this point, I would so much rather learn the tools and enforce some very strict boundaries, learn to not JADE and let him "choose" what he wants from this relationship. I suspect that at some point I will be split completely black and pushed out because he cannot reconcile that I do not want to have a sexual relationship and the middle ground of "friendship" is too hard for him. But, I still am hoping to have as good an understanding of the process and what I can hypothetically expect in contrast to what has already happened, if that's even possible. Thank you.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[RolandOfEld]

Hi CautiousHope, it sounds like this relationship is very important to you but you are conflicted as to whether or not to proceed with it due to the "rollercoaster" of ups and downs. I can certainly relate to feeling both loved and hated at the same time and the confusion it brings.  

Though certain behavioral patterns are common among people with BPD, everyone is still different and won't necessarily follow the same pattern.

You seem very concerned with how your friend would feel if you were to end communication. For your side, what benefits do you feel the relationship brings to you, and what would you like to get out of it if you continue contact?

Best,
~ROE

[JoeBPD81]

Hey CautiousHope,

I want to thank you for caring enough to be here. You sense this person is suffering, and you also know life is going to treat him with rejection because the way he reacts to that pain. You've chosen to try and be compasionate, and that speaks volumes about you as a person.

You are right you are gonna need strong boundaries. And see how it goes. If he's gonna be suffering because he continues to be in love with you years and years, maybe the kind thing is to help him let you go. But time will tell you that.

[CautiousHope]

Hi ROE & Joe, thank you for your replies. I apologize in advance, this is likely to be a very long reply, thanks for taking the time to talk me through this.

Part of my motivation to maintain the relationship is admittedly selfish, I just couldn't live with myself knowing how devastating it was for him to end this relationship while knowing in my heart that he did nothing to warrant that. It was simply that I realize he very likely has BPD. Our start has been rocky and boundaries have been off and on and all over the place while I figured out what was going and got my footing, but every attempt to change the relationship or to get him on board with making changes to improve the relationship has actually worked. I have read a lot of stories here where it's all one sided, or the pwBPD will agree to change and then do nothing, but that has not been the case here. He struggles very much and sometimes gets agitated and defiant, but his attempt to adhere to my (ever-changing, and thusly probably twice as confusing) boundaries has been sincere. I don't believe his intentions are to be a better person and to contribute to the relationship, I believe he is doing what he thinks he must do in order to be loved, but at the end of the day how is it a bad thing if he learns to better respect boundaries and it allows him contact with someone that he insists he wants to have in his life? In the same breath, I don't expect that he can or will change like an emotionally healthy adult, his attempts are childish and awkward and his failure to stick with the new rules is impulsive - but he apologizes for his impulsive actions. It does seem like he wants to fix things, which makes this much harder for me to walk away from, because he does seem to want to make changes to make the relationship better, I just always have to be the one to make the decisions because he simply won't or can't - or the only real option he's able to see is some wild fantasy where we both drop our lives and literally run off together. I don't know how to explain it, ever since the beginning our relationship has been about helping each other be better people, it's pretty much the foundation it was built on and I do think that he encourages me to grow, whether it is authentic or if he is just mirroring me back to myself, I feel like I better person for having known him and I feel like I continue to grow in this relationship in both my capacity for acceptance and empathy and also in more personal ways, like recognizing my own need for validation and self love and that I must heal those wounds for myself. It gives me a unique opportunity to practice and challenge my boundary setting habits, another thing that I thought I was pretty good at, but he showed me where I have some weaknesses in that area. Also, I had mentioned that we are both artists and that is how we initially connected and a thing that we regularly bond over, and both of us have taken leaps and bounds in our artistic works since we've met. I am, without a doubt, a better artist from having had this friendship and I am also a huge fan of his art and artistic process, it's fascinating to me and I have learned so much from it.

When we first met, I thought he just had anxiety and a drinking problem. I have a long history of my own issues, including OCD and PTSD (almost positively C-PTSD, as well), but 20 years in and out of therapy and a LOT of work on myself have given me the tools and the insight to understand and manage my personal issues quite well, especially in comparison to my youth and young adulthood. Meeting him stirred up my trauma in a unique way, it brought things to the surface that I have never been able to access or understand - and coincidentally, have struggled to heal - and with that came an incredible well of gratitude. He did not do it intentionally, but I am still incredibly grateful to have met him because that has been a life-changing realization for me and I don't know if or how I would have ever found it without this experience. Once I pieced together the BPD and then researched it obsessively (that trait comes in handy when you can use it to your benefit, ) I realized there was no way we could continue the whole fantasy/flirtation, but going straight to NC was hard on me. I missed him. I don't like the way he behaves when he is dysregulated, which is pretty often, but it feels less stressful now that I have some tools to deal with the behavior. I am going to need a post to ask some questions about that, though, because I can't figure out how/when to disengage.

His home life is genuinely stressful and triggering for him. He is married (complication #1, which I am ashamed to admit) and his wife is naturally his primary "source" of stress. However, unlike many of the stories here, in his case it is not just BPD projection. I have seen a fair amount of evidence to back up his claims that she is verbally abusive, both to him and the kids, and sometimes physically abusive. She is very authoritarian, she rules the house with an iron fist and while that isn't inherently a bad thing necessarily, it's obviously triggering for him and he doesn't have anyone to talk to about the issues between them and the kids. It would be hard for me to walk away from a friend who was in a situation like that even if there was no BPD involved, anyone would struggle to keep themselves pulled together living in a stressful situation like that and people need to have a friend that they trust. Am I obligated to be that friend? No, of course not, but I also have been in hospice work for 10 years so I am pretty comfortable with taking on a supportive role with some healthy distance while accepting that the outcome will likely be a sad one. I am more comfortable with that than I am with walking away from someone who really could use someone stable to lean on and knowing that I am possibly the only person able to give that to them at this time. I really don't know if that counts as the FOG, it feels like something I would do for anyone I care about. But, of course, I could be wrong about all of it. It's not exactly an intuitive experience, as you know. It's hard to know if it's the right thing to do - to stay and try to redefine our relationship and to offer structure and support, or if I should just walk away because his feelings are always going to be a challenge. It's not an easy decision to make at all.

[RolandOfEld]

Hi CautiousHope, thanks for elaborating and for your honesty regarding your feelings towards this relationship. I'm glad its given you the opportunity to better understand yourself.

 

Part of my motivation to maintain the relationship is admittedly selfish, I just couldn't live with myself knowing how devastating it was for him to end this relationship while knowing in my heart that he did nothing to warrant that.

One of the most key elements of any healthy relationship is that each person take responsibility for the consequences of their own behavior. While it does not sound as though he has done anything specifically hurtful to you, it was his own chaotic behavior that first led you to consider ending the relationship. If you decide to end contact do keep in mind that he has equal or the most share in this result. 

The same for his family situation. While it sounds difficult and I understand that you emphasize with him and wish to support him, it is his responsibility and we can assume he played a role in creating it.

~ROE

[JoeBPD81]

How are you doing, CautiousHope?

See, I'm in a relationship, and many days my motivation it's mainly that the alternative is unthinkable to me. The trouble is more than the rewards, most days, but I can see some positive things, and I don't think they (my gf and her kids) deserve to be rejected once more. So I feel that the right thing to do is to stay.

In a way that's what I understand about your situation. The right thing to do is to be by this friend's side, although you see how it's not easy. Am I getting it right?

Hope we hear from you.

[CautiousHope]

Thanks for checking in, what a nice community this is.

I can't say that I feel it's unthinkable to end the relationship, just at this point it isn't justifiable for me to do that based on any of his behavior up to this point. There are a lot of days that the trouble is more than the rewards, but I think that the days where the reverse is true outnumber those. Also, I feel like I do get a lot out of our friendship, it's not all one sided, which makes it a lot harder to just give up on. If it was just me giving all the time and getting nothing in return, I think I'd be long gone. And, I don't just mean in his starry eyed idealizing, he gives authentic feedback and consideration often, even in some moments where he seems to be spiraling out convinced that I have never cared and that I am about to leave him, he occasionally still somehow manages to squeeze in a "thank you." Yesterday he broke down again about me not wanting to be with him romantically, which we talk about often, which naturally became about me abandoning him. Later in the evening, he told me he was grateful that I have a strong head on my shoulders and he said he looks up to me for that. When he snaps out of those moods, he almost always thanks me in one way or another for being there, not directly, but consistently enough that it's obvious what he's thanking me for. I can't shake the feeling that he's asking for help and that he actually wants it. Maybe he won't take the leap and make the changes he really needs to make to change, but the effort is there and it has been steadily there as long as I've known him, it's just extremely subtle and slow.

It's unique and it's stressful to navigate, but learning the tools here took it from quite stressful to at least manageable most of the time, even good at other times when I would have been lost as to how to respond. Will it inevitably continue to get worse? I have no idea, but the only way to find out is to wait and see, I guess? Since having found this site, I would say it's actually improved a lot, so again it makes it hard to completely drop the relationship when I see progress being made. I sometimes hope that someone can tell me if I'm just being a little too optimistic, but I can't help but wonder if it's that he's at a different point in his journey than many of the partners or family members posted about on these boards, I suppose there's no way to really know. I don't know if he has a sort of BPD that deflects his anger elsewhere or if he has learned to manage it on his own in some way or if he is just more inclined to be inward acting in some ways, but he seems to try really hard to do the "right" thing even though he is clearly lacking insight into his own behavior and badly struggles to cope with his moods and feelings.

I also think it's a LOT easier for someone in my position because I have the perk of distance. It's easy for me to disengage, I don't have to live with him. I don't even have to see him if I don't want to. I can't even begin to imagine how much more challenging it would be to live with every day in a home environment.