Trying to avoid ruining a 30 year r/s. He verbally abuses and accuses me

[Takej]

Just saying hi for the first time. Trying to avoid ruining a 30-year relationship with children who would be devastated by the breakup.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Gemsforeyes]

Hi Katje and welcome to our community -
A 30-year relationship is a long time, I understand.  Can you provide more details on the relationship and what you think you would be “ruining” if you were to break-up? 

And how old are the children who would be devastated by the breakup?  How have the children expressed their feelings on the relationship and what have they seen of YOUR experiences?

This is a wonderful and supportive community.  We’re here to assist you no matter what decision you make.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[Takej]

We have been together for 30 years -- met very young, first and only loves for each of us -- and have two children -- 18 and 15. My husband has now alienated me from my children, projecting his own problems onto me, saying I have anger issues, am abusive. He is terrified of being abandoned, so has decided to make our children my proxy. I am now in the same position his mother was -- only she really did abandon him. He is repeating the patterns he and his father established with his mother.

I have spent years trying to figure out what is wrong with me and what I'm doing wrong to warrant this. I started therapy on my own to try to fix myself. My therapist said it wasn't me but my husband. My husband has fired my kids' therapists, even though my kids have mental illnesses. I suspect my older one has developed BPD, although it used to be depression and anxiety. My younger suffers from depression and anxiety and has gender dysphoria. My younger child has told me the thing she is most terrified of is that I'll leave. But she is completely attached to her father.

My children won't let me touch them, but they snuggle up to their father. They try to enforce his rules with me -- from how I empty the dishwasher to how I drive -- even when he isn't there. ":)on't make dad mad," my youngest says. ":)ad's not even here!" I'd say. Her response? "Yeah, but you know he doesn't like it when you do X."

They have completely adopted his point of view. My older daughter's therapist called my therapist to say she is concerned about the influence my husband has on her and that it is directly contributing to her poor mental health.

[Gemsforeyes]

Oh Katje-
I am so sorry, but we will try to help you, so please stay. This is so terribly painful.

You know, I may be off, but it seems as if your children are trying to protect you by warning you away from doing things that may “make dad mad”.  Are the kids actually reporting back to him when you do things in a manner that your H may not “approve” of?  I’m trying to get a sense of how closely your actions are being watched by BPDh.

Has your husband been diagnosed with BPD?  How does he behave toward you in general... .if you can provide kind of a “normal” workday scenario.  Was there a time or a trigger point where his behavior toward you changed dramatically?

As far as your husband’s family of origin (FOO); did his mom “abandon” him because she was pushed out by harsh behavior of her husband and her son (your H)?  And you’re now almost seeing a repeat performance in your marriage?

I am so glad that you’re seeing a T and have come to understand that you are NOT the one primarily responsible for what is happening here.  I cannot begin to know the pain of not being touched by your children; but I feel almost certain they are doing this out of fear of BPDh’s potential reaction.  He has made them believe he can see things that take place when he isn’t there.  Regarding your 18-year old, is she out of high school?  What are her plans?

And the “snuggling” with dad, who initiates that?  Do the girls go to him, or does he call them?  Are there calm times when you feel comfortable and like a “normal” family?

What you can do, is to somehow communicate to your girls that you ARE available to them for love and support, ALWAYS.  I’m sure you have already done this, but maybe your T can provide better ways to communicate this to your girls.  Even if you ultimately decide to move out of the primary residence. 

Why did your H pull the therapy from your children when he knows they have issues?  Was it his paranoia that they were discussing him?  Did the girls express a desire to continue therapy, or are they afraid of him?

Do you work outside the home?  Are you physically safe?

I look forward to hearing from you.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[Gemsforeyes]

Sorry, I just saw your other post.  You may want to cut and paste that into here so that you’re not repeating yourself.  Or show a link to that post.

I need to run out for awhile.  Will “talk” later.

Warmly,

Gemsforeyes

[Takej]

Thank you, Gemsforeyes. Here's the paste of my other posting.

He does not have a diagnosis. The only way I can get him into therapy is couples therapy, although I can see from the questions the therapist asks him that she is probably thinking BPD -- she tries to get him to talk a lot about his abandonment by his mother.

His mother took him and moved away from his father -- they stayed married -- when he was a toddler. She moved in with another man right down the street. When she decided to go to NY for a dance career, she moved my husband back to the house with his father and my husband developed anger issues. Then, when he was about to enter middle school, she yanked him away from his father to have my husband move in with her. He hated her by that point, but had no choice but to move.

When I met him ,I tried to "fix" his relationship with his mother, thinking she couldn't be that bad. Then I met her and discovered for myself that he was right. Only recently have I begun to see that she was probably horrible in part because her son and her husband had banded against her. I realized that when I started hearing her words -- I just want to love you; please don't be so closed, I'm your mother; can we go to a therapist together and talk this out? -- coming from my mouth.

The kids initiate the affectionate cuddle time with my husband. If I try to touch my older daughter, she flinches like I've hit her. She is moving away to college next month and I am hopeful that once she is away at school, she'll have some degree of perspective or at least she won't see the whole world as bad, as does her father. I am afraid I've not much hope that she will ever not see things his way. She is temperamentally just like him.

Here's what I posted on the other thread:

My husband doesn't get violent, but he does get angry and it seems to be all the time. (We've been together 30 years and it has always been this way, but it used to be directed towards the rest of the world and now it's directed towards me -- now that he has our children to be the "only people who understand me." He is a scoffer and a mumbler. Whenever I say anything, I get scoffed at or I get the cold shoulder. He gets mad at me for some infraction or other and he starts mumbling. If I ask him what he said, he says, "Never mind." If I press him and tell him I can't fix it if I don't know what it is I've done, he says, "There's no point. It's not like you'll ever change."

I'm accused of abuse because I ask our children if they've done their homework. I'm accused of harassment if I ask him how his day was. He tells the children I've abandoned them when I've gotten angry and gone to take a walk. He's told them I hate them when I've blown up at him because he wouldn't stop picking at me after I asked him repeatedly to please stop. He says I'm scary, when what he means is that he's afraid I'll walk out. (I finally figured this out the other day when I asked him what made me scary. I've been trying to figure it out for years because I'm not mean or abusive and I don't yell a lot or hit anyone or break anything or behave in any violent ways whatsoever. When he said that's what he meant by me being scary, I said that wasn't me being scary, but him feeling scared. He told me I was splitting hairs. It's my fault he is afraid I'll leave him. I have told him I will have to leave him if he continues to treat me this way, but whenever I say I'm upset about something, he turns around and either tells me I'm wrong or that I do the same thing. He feels blamed and so we never get to solve any problems. I've even invited him to tell me what's wrong and he won't answer.)

We've started seeing a couples' therapist and she has figured out pretty quickly who the high-conflict person is -- and who is projecting all of his own faults onto me -- but when she tries to gently get him to see that maybe I'm trying to connect with him and maybe he is getting defensive, he claims not to see it and then claims the therapist is picking on him and that he's going to have a heart attack because the sessions make him so anxious and upset.

I walk on eggshells constantly. When he's not at home, I think I must be making this stuff up or I must be making a mountain out of a molehill, I love him and couples have their problems. Then, as soon as he walks into the house, my tension levels rise and I get ready for the anger. Then he says something thoroughly hurtful and I realize I was right, that this really is bad. (I kind of asked for it this morning, though. I was getting dressed and realized he has never told me I look nice or am pretty or anything like that -- he considers it patriarchal and that people shouldn't rely on any external validation. I asked him if I'd ever been pretty. His response? "I'm not going to answer that. My answer would just upset you." Well, it does now. But I did ask for that one. It's the ones I don't ask for that are more problematic.)

My friends and family have been telling me for years to leave him. He's not nice to me. He's aggressive with strangers -- even after he's gotten into trouble for being that way, he turns around and does it again. I used to protect him -- or try to -- from the crises he creates. He can't see himself the way the rest of the world sees him. He thinks the world hates him and is aggressive towards him. He can't see how what he does might be contributing to other people's negative feelings towards him. I've tried for years to point it out to him, but he always said I was taking their side and just couldn't see the truth.

Now when he verbally abuses me in front of our friends -- we have very few of those now because they  have told me they are uncomfortable with the way he treats me -- some of his oldest friends from high school will speak up and tell him he's being abusive (and now he has our kids being abusive to me, too). He says to them that they can't see what I'm doing to provoke him. They tell him they are sitting right there and I'm not doing anything at all. He says I'm doing it covertly. One of his friends remarked that it was so covert it was completely invisible to anyone other than my husband.

He has alienated me from my kids, isolated me from my friends. I think the reason he is angry at me is because a few years ago I decided I'd had enough and I started having lunch with friends and essentially having a life without him. I also took a new job and that prompted him telling the kids I'd "abandoned" them because I did what pretty much every other person in the US does -- work full-time. They bought it.

I'm at a loss as to what to do. I really can't live without kindness, affection, support. I have been alone for so long now and I've told him that. He doesn't care. Each time he is mean, I think it's hopeless, there's no way even with couples therapy that he can ever be loving. He was once, when we were dating, but that was because I could empathize with him, even as I gently tried to suggest that other people deserved kindness and compassion. He liked that about me, that I was nice to people. Not anymore.

The therapist told me privately that if you buy a dog that bites everyone else, eventually he's going to turn and bite you. I wish someone had told me that when I was 17. Instead, I felt special. Pretty foolish on my part. But now I'm stuck.

Any advice would be most welcome.

[pearlsw]

Hi Katje,

As I read this I want to ask, do you feel like you want to work on Bettering the relationship despite how difficult it is, or do you feel more Conflicted about even being in it?

So is your marriage totally lacking in intimacy and affection at this point?

What would have to happen to make you want to stay with him may I ask?

wishing you peace, pearl.

[Panda39]

Hi Katje,

 

I'm sorry so much is going on, there are a lot of moving parts this has got to be very exhausting... .Your Husband, Your relationship with your husband, your children, your relationship with your children, your husband's relationship with the children and you (taking care of yourself).

I wanted to comment on the title of your post and say that you aren't ruining anything here, everyone has their part to play in the family and what is going on.  You are not responsible for everyone and everything... .you are not responsible for the happiness/success of your family/marriage all by yourself.    That is a huge burden to put on yourself.

I think it's fantastic that you are seeing a Therapist, you are working on you and that's terrific.  One of the first things I learned when coming here was I couldn't control other people (and beleive me I wanted to control my boyfriend's undiagnosed BPD ex-wife like you wouldn't believe!).  We can only control what we do, think, and feel so seeking therapy for yourself and coming here two are great things you can do for yourself... .getting support is excellent.

To use the Airplane Oxygen analogy... .You have to put on your oxygen mask before you can help anyone else.

Your therapist mentioned your Husband projecting and I heard that in your post as well.  I have found understanding things like projection are helpful... .understanding those behaviors behind the scenes so to speak can be helpful in clearing some of the chaos and to be able to see things more clearly.

More from our site on Projection (link at the end of the definition)... .
Projection

Projection is a defense mechanism, operating unconsciously, in which what is emotionally unacceptable in the self is unconsciously rejected and attributed (projected) to others.  Projection is denying one's own unpleasant traits, behaviors, or feelings by attributing them, often in an accusing way,  to someone else.
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=70931.0

I'm so glad you've found us and decided to post.  Feel free to look around the site there is a lot of information, experience, and support to be had here.

Take Care, 
Panda39

[Takej]

Hi pearlsw,

It is totally lacking in intimacy and affection, but I really want to get it back. We have three psychologists at this point -- a couples' therapist, my therapist, and my older daughter's therapist -- all saying the problem is my husband, but the couples' therapist is the point person who is trying very gently to get him to see himself. Of course, he is convinced I am the problem.

When he is get -- which has been a very very long time ago now -- he is terrific. He is a good person with a lot of emotional and behavioral problems.

[Takej]

I guess I forgot to answer the rest of your question. I am conflicted about staying in this relationship, but I also want to better it.

In many ways, I have been the only one giving in this relationship. My husband is the one who needs and there has never been much giving. Not even opening a door for me or asking if I'd like a cup of coffee when he is getting himself one. but his parents were like that, too. For a long time, I just thought he was lacking manners and I kept trying to teach him -- and show him how his actions affected others. You can imagine how that went.

I suppose I still have the hope that my husband can open up to be more giving and less angry, but I don't know if that is possible. He has said several times in therapy that it is a "core part" of his personality. I don't know if that's true. If it is, then I won't stay married to him because I can't live the rest of my life with his anger and coldness. If it isn't a core part of who he is, if he can change, then we can make it work. But, honestly, I don't know if that can happen. I am not someone who holds grudges or anything like that, but it has to be better from here (or somewhere near here) on out.

I feel like he is just angry at me for some reason. The therapists are trying to work out what that reason is. The therapists -- and I -- are pretty sure it's not me.