How to have boundaries without triggering him?

[Jessica84]

I need guidance. After all this time... .I am STILL struggling to balance having boundaries without triggering his fear of abandonment.

A few years ago I stopped taking his abuse. We don't live together so I started leaving before a conflict escalated - or sometimes during if it happened so fast I didn't see it coming ahead of time. This was only after all else failed, tools, validation, etc. After a few times, much of the conflict died down before it got to that point. Our r/s got more stable.

Lately, his anger and mood swings are worse than ever. So I'm using the boundary again more and more. Maybe too much? He says we should just breakup if I can't stand to be around him.  Have I pushed this boundary too far?

"Fight or Flight" -- when I take flight, he takes the fight to my phone with angry texts. So it becomes "flight, then fight", except I don't fight via text either, which frustrates him even more. Kinda defeats the purpose of having a boundary if I don't get the peace I need from it, and it is so traumatic to him that it jeopardizes our relationship. It doesn't matter how delicately I handle it. He says I don't care about him anymore, he doesn't trust me not to run, he has to be "careful" around me, walk on eggshells. How ironic! Does fighting=love to him? Is there a way to balance my needs with his? Thanks for any advice. I'm at a loss.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Jessica84]

Well maybe we found a solution. Together. That's a welcome surprise!

In moments of distress, he suggested that I take a walk or leave for an hour rather than the whole night. Great compromise. Enough time for me to rebalance, him to cool down, but not so long that he feels abandoned.

I read about giving timeframes of when we will return, but it never made sense since we live apart. I could just go home. Now that I see what it does to him, I see why that is important. And I only live 2 miles away so this is very do-able. More ideas are churning... .  like taking a long bath at his place since the bathroom isn't technically "leaving"... .I couldn't see the forest for the trees when I was rigidly staring at one leaf!

[Notwendy]

Jessica-
I think that is the dilemma. I don't think it is possible to set a boundary without the other person not liking it. PwBPD have difficulty with their frustrations at not getting what they want, in a similar way a young child does. It's a bit like parenting. The child wants the cookie before dinner, or the toy at the store, but the parent has a boundary - no cookies before dinner, the toy is too expensive.

Is there a way to stick to this boundary and have the child say " Oh yes parent, I understand" ? I doubt that. The more likely reaction is the child is going to pitch a fit, beg for the cookie or toy, or try to manipulate a way to get it.  If the parent gives in, then the child does not get the opportunity to manage his own feelings. because the parent manages them for him- actually manages their own bad feelings at the child having a fit over not having his way.

I think the dynamics are the same in a disordered relationship. If you set a boundary, the hard part for you is managing your feelings while he is triggered. Whose trigger is it- it is his trigger, his feelings. We can't manage someone else's feelings. Now, we don't have to enforce the boundary cruelly. A parent should not be cruel to the child who wants the toy but a firm " I understand you are feeling frustrated, but we can not afford the toy" is OK.

I like that the two of you have come to a possible solution, but you may need more time. Taking a bath is fine- if he leaves you alone. If the abuse continues, you may need to excuse yourself for longer. See how his suggestions work and if they don't, then you can set the boundary. "I will go home for the night and will call you first thing in the morning" is a possible one. The hard part is managing our own feelings of discomfort- easier said than done but gets better with practice ( him managing his triggers can too).

[Jessica84]

As always, you make a lot of sense!

I usually don't need more than an hour. As soon as I leave the mud starts to roll right off. After I've been home for 2-3 hours is when the text bombing turns to hysteria. So while I'm home, relaxed and mud-free, he's been romping in it for hours and ready to hurl it at me.

Leaving for a shorter time could help. Sometimes I can diffuse the situation by going to the Coke machine and coming back refreshed. Other times I need longer, and that's the dilemma. Somewhere between 5 minutes and the whole night is the answer.

[Lakebreeze]

Hi!
I'm terrible with boundries myself,so I'm the last person that should be commenting here. But I'm going to pass on what a therapist said. We were describing the same situation except that we are married and live together. So he rages, I leave usually for the day, never overnight. He was trying to make the point that my leaving made it impossible for him to "solve" the problem, was me running away from issues, made him feel unheard. Therapist: " Well, it's unhealthy and manipulative of you to need to rage at your spouse to feel heard or solve a problem"  I don't know if this helps at all, I just know I often use it as a guidpost when I start to feel guilty about inforcing that boundry.
All the best.

[formflier]

Jessica84,

Hey!  How are you?  I don't spend a lot of time on this board, but when I saw the post about boundaries, I wanted to hop in.

Like you, I've found boundaries very effective in bringing relative calm and stability to my relationship.  I firmly call them my #1 tool.  Like you, my pwBPD many times doesn't like them. 

That goes with the territory... it is what it is. 

What is your pwBPD's status with going to T or doing self improvement work.  He seems very aware of the dynamic and I think it is a positive sign that he is discussing this.

One area of caution/awareness.  If most of his ideas revolve around YOU doing things differently so that YOUR boundary doesn't impact him as much, I would advise you to reflect a while on the possibility his intentions may be manipulative, vice true relationship problem solving.

I get it that true 50/50 just isn't going to happen in a r/s with pwBPD.

Perhaps another way of testing this:  If he is complaining about YOUR boundary against abuse, how does he react when the discussion turns to why he "bumps into" that boundary so much?  If he doesn't like the "headache" from your boundary, perhaps he should stop banging his head against it... .vice asking you to move it or make it softer.

Just a thought/concern to keep in your scan.

FF

[Notwendy]

The other side of the boundary is his part. I agree with FF that it may not be 50-50, but you can teach a kindergarten child to not say "poopy face" to someone else. We hear parents say to their frustrated children " use your words" "use your indoor voice". They don't silence the angry or upset child, but encourage them to express themselves in ways that are acceptable.

Your BF may not like the boundary, but if he doesn't like it, then he can learn a better way of taking care of his triggers and feelings. If he is upset- he can express this without being verbally abusive. You may have to teach him.

The boundary of walking away isn't intended to be cruel- it is a sort of "time out" for adults. Time out is used with children to allow them ( and the parent) some alone time to calm down. It doesn't have to be a long time, but just long enough. If an hour is enough for the two of you to calm down, then that's good but if you need longer, you can let him know.

I think we all sometimes need a "time out" to get a grip on ourselves if we are in a heated discussion.

It is interesting because I use these behavior management tools with my kids, but neither of our parents used them with us. I think children need to feel their feelings are validated and then taught appropriate ways to deal with them. I wonder if some pwBPD were not taught this early on? I think some of the tools- SET- are adult versions of these tools for children.

[Jessica84]

Excellent points! I love you all   

I honestly don't believe it is intentional or manipulative on his part. He is definitely "banging his head" against my boundary, but I think I may understand why now... .

It comes down to... .Houston, we have a problem! Our city is still on a long, long road to recovery since the hurricane - our routines and way of life are broken. The damage here has put a severe strain on our jobs and finances, making things more stressful. Our main office building had to close, displacing hundreds and scattering them across the city. The normal course of business as we knew it is gone. More travel time, longer hours, and less money with many still paying for home repairs and can't afford our services (we're in similar fields). Hard not to be on edge. So what's another thing, like a boundary? If I can re-route which streets I take now, I can take an hour break instead of an 8 hour break if it helps. Whatever eliminates some of the frustration. I need the peace. I need normalcy.

It's no wonder I'm not able to be my usual supportive, compassionate self and need to "escape" any added drama! Come to think of it, even the most resilient people I know are starting to crumble under the stress in our city. Never occurred to me how much the storm has affected me personally.

The lack of sunshine in the winter also affects his moods. He has gone in the hospital twice for stomach pain and recently injured his foot. He had to give up eating foods he liked, and now, exercising. A lot of cause-effect stuff that would affect anyone. All without my gentle support he's used to, and the fear I will take it away permanently. Recipe for disaster.

[formflier]

Don't underestimate the impact of a natural disaster.  That was the "trigger" for BPD showing up in my relationship.  I (mentally) went one way and my wife went the other.  We lived off our farm for about 6 months because of a flood.  Every day we would drive out there to care for animals, rebuild and all of that. 

Sure we "camped out" there a few times, but really were not able to "live there" for many months.  Even once we "moved back", it was not the same because rebuilding was still doing on.

I would challenge you to go back to him with assurances that you will try taking shorter breaks, perhaps going to different room, brewing coffee... consuming coffee... washing cup and then coming back will be enough time.  Trying to think of it as doing an enjoyable activity for a break, rather than watching a clock.

I would ask you to challenge him to switch things up as well.  You are responding to his request... .what does/will his response to your request look like... .how can we decide to not bang his head so much.

FF

[Jessica84]

FF - I'm sorry to hear of your troubles! You were my favorite success story, and I have followed many of your examples. From "help me understand... ." to staying true to my values. I appreciate you! And mama Notwendy, Lakebreeze, and all the rest!

Not sure what to request of him... .how about stop going nuts every few weeks so I won't have to leave?  Not a fair request for someone with BPD.

Part of the problem is, when I'm stressed, we're stressed. Because without my good nature and use of the tools, things go haywire pretty fast.

I have always looked inward or to family/friends for support. Its not a 2-way street where when one of us is down, the other lifts us up. Doesn't work that way with BPD. But now my support network has been shattered. Friends whose homes and lives have been destroyed. Family members who lost their jobs. Clients intense and impatient. All hurricane-related. Hard to whine about how he picked on me over food or a tv show when they are suffering far more serious problems.

[formflier]

Let him figure out what to request of him... .you keep your part broad.

The goal is that he spends most of his time reflecting about how he can change to improve the relationship, vice you.

As always... .if you can find places to agree with him... agree, such as agreeing that his BPD isn't fair and it isn't fair that he has to overcome it, vice have others change the world for him (ok... probably wouldn't say that part)... but alas, you can both agree... life isn't fair.

So... express confidence that he will continue to grow and mature and figure out how to manage his feelings.

FF

[Jessica84]

Thanks FF. That helps. He doesn't know he has BPD even though he's textbook. His T is treating him for OCD and depression, and not very well. Minimal discussions (about 15 mins every 6 mos, mostly to refill meds). At his age, I give up on him getting any real help. I can say he's come a long way from the days of constant rages and suicidal threats. So that's something.

But I digress... .    I take your point.

[formflier]

  At his age, I give up on him getting any real help.

There is the attitude to reflect on... .

Keep setting the bar higher. 

Flip it... .does he expect you to keep growing and getting better?  Yep... he doesn't seem shy at all.

The trick for many of us nons is not to get caught up when the progress isn't what we expect.  Yet we should still keep "expecting progress".

Tricky.

FF

[Jessica84]

Some progress... .he started taking his anti-depressants again this weekend. So I think he's aware and trying. 

He's been raging since Dec - yelling and pounding his fist on his desk at work. Accusing people of mistakes HE made. Beating on his car, throwing and kicking things. Arguing with his family. Out of control. He's scaring people.

I can't worry about how them though. He told me his "cup was full" and he has to "empty" it. His "cup" is full of hot acid so I need the boundary. It sizzles and burns! But if it means I'm pouring more into his overfull cup, I'm willing to relax it as long as I still get the protection I need.

I would like to talk to him at some point about other options for "emptying the cup". Healthier choices. But I have to protect myself first. Hard to have compassion when I'm dripping in acid.

[Nwish]

There is definitely something to be said about our stress causing them stress. When my ex started withdrawing, he told me (during one of our only arguments, which came out of nowhere) that he was starting to feel responsible for my feelings of anxiety and stress. He said he’s the same person and he can’t be responsible for my anxiety. I’ve always been anxious but I really tried to keep it from him. There was a lot going on in both our lives (not as much as yours with the natural disaster). When he withdrew, I got anxious, which made him worry that he did something wrong, and I would leave or wasn’t happy.

We have to worry about ourselves at some point and have support for our difficulties too! In a text after he broke up with me, he mentioned that we can’t go on with him being distant and rude. Then he said that I was the steady one and when I talked about breaking up when he needed space, he realized we were not what he thought we were. Of course, I never threatened to break up. He took a comment out of context.

This reminded me of your comment about your stress causing relationship stress... .it’s hard to be the steady one at all times. I’m still having a hard time forgiving myself for being nervous - isn’t that crazy?

[formflier]

Jessica84,

Been a while since we've talked about your goals, but I've always got the vibe that you two are in it for the long haul.

So... .I wonder if his coming to you would be the opening to say sure and let's go together and chat with your team (t... whatever you call them) about some new stuff for you to try and well.

Very nonchalant... I'll try new stuff... you try new stuff... .we all try new stuff.

What is his status with psychiatrists... Therapists and all that.

Very good he is trying to stabilize on meds... I'm hoping he has good guidance.

FF

[Jessica84]

FF - he has no guidance. No therapy. He has a pill pusher with a degree. They don't discuss core issues, just symptoms, and prescribing different med dosages and combos. But he likes this doctor so he won't leave him. Is what it is.

Nwish - Anxiety can throw us off-balance. We may be the emotional adults in BPD r/s, but we're not made of stone! We can't always be their rock. We have to cope with our own issues, even if it is inconvenient for them.

I have OCD/OCPD. My disorder is one of order (ironically) - so it has some advantages - clean, organized, perfectionist, punctual. I don't take meds. I resist urges to do irrational things, like clean a toilet for no good reason!   His disorder has no advantages. My bf has good qualities, but BPD isn't one of them. It has nothing beneficial to offer. Not a single trait. Anxiety, depression, what he calls "mental attacks" - these are just symptoms of a larger disorder, still undiagnosed, and likely always will be.

[ortac77]

I have found that meds whilst good at 'calming' my pwBPD act more like a drug which makes him soporific, he used to abuse alcohol which had the opposite effect so thats an improvement but the drugs just knock him out and make him less effective in the same way alcohol did (without the rages and abuse first) ASFAIK there are no drugs that treat BPD and I think this is a 'cop out' by the Dr (easy option).

It took a long time for him to start therapy (DBT) and his attendance is sporadic. I have noticed some improvements although I have also noticed that rather than use the tools himself he has started to try and use them on me, kind of smart in a sick way but comes over as manipulative. He thinks I am OCD.

You talk about being OCD, like you I am clean and tidy, organised, punctual - maybe a perfectionist - but also like you that does not lead me to irrational things, just those things that make my life comfortable. I still remember a school teacher I had many years ago who used to say "to be lazy you have to be efficient so work at it" - think that describes it pretty well. I don't get hung up on this because I agree with you - it has advantages. Where it falls down in my case is probably that I am strongly emotionally driven by a need for security (my childhood was not - so I kind of understand where that comes from)

After 13 years together I am finding the mess and chaos induced by BPD and the lack of support for my needs/wants is causing me stress and I agree with the earlier posting that I think my stress can trigger his dysregulation.

Its a conundrum and one that I struggle with, certainly when I have boundaries they are constantly challenged and I am guilty then of switching to a rule based approach which only makes matters worse!

[juju2]

Hi Jessica,

Reading your story a bit, you don't live together.
We don't either.  I see similarities, my dBPD bf does stop meds, etc.  He is diagnosed about 20 yrs ago.we lived together 9 yrs, 11 Yes together, I am counting this last year also.

Our sex life is/was a disaster.  He couldn't have an orgasm after 35-45 mins.  It was one of his meds, the doc switched him, our sex life was great.  That lasted a few wks, he couldnt take the side effects of the different med.  I was ashamed that i couldnt please him

Fast forward, we are separated 3-4-17, he is sleeping w someone, he told me, since oct.
We started couples counseling dec 2017.
It is going well, we are starting new, w coffee meet ups.  I don't understand why he has another woman.

I thought our entire r/s he was cheating.  I didn't know anything about BPD, since he told me about it when we first met.  I figured he had "it " handled.  It wasn't until we separated, that i got informed on BPD.

Our T knows about BPD, she has two people in her family w that.  It is so refreshing for us to go to her, it is like we are really getting help!

Am so glad you post.  I have read your posts, recently, not so much back when you first started posting.

I feel like the only one in the r/s trying to keep us together thru this rough patch.

He broke up w me when I asked for us to live apart, I said we both were too toxic, we needed space, to appreciate one another again.

He moved, and said, we are broken up.

Any way, we see eachother 1x wk, for coffee or for counseling.  I see that he was shocked and hurt last yr when we separated.  Now he refers to that time as " inevitable... ."  he gives me a big hug, a huge kiss, kisses.

We have a great time during our time together... .

Maybe I can share more and you could give me feedback?  I feel as though you really have a handle on the r/s hurdles!  THANK you!

j

[Jessica84]

Hi juju - I can relate to yours as well. How do you feel about living apart? Great that you are getting counseling. Do you want to move back in together at some point? Personally, I like having my own sanctuary, no drama unless I decide to scream at myself, hah. I could see how a big change like moving apart would be taken as a breakup, almost any change can trigger that black-white thinking.

Is he still seeing someone else? How are you coping with that? That would be tough for me. I don't think I could see him anymore. But I get there's a long history there, a lot of time and energy invested. We're going on 9 years. My life was so much easier before I met him, but I've learned and grown a lot so it hasn't been wasted.

One of his meds causes sexual side effects too. He gets frustrated at how long it takes him. He is 15 yrs older and a little insecure about it. Sometimes he feels like an old man. Helps to have patience. I'm in my 40s but still get carded so it's even worse when people ask if he's my dad! When that happens, I smile, twirl my hair, and call him "daddy"   He's over it.