Bracing myself for an impact

[snowglobe]

I could describe this the only way I can- similar to the well known emergency exit simulations before the airplane take off, I’m trying to remember the coping strategies all tools. I’m bracing myself for turbulence and perhaps even crash landing. My uBPDh is entering BPD twilight zone I learnt to recognize and fear. Instead of stop, drop and roll drill I’m trying to prevent or even reverse this episode, even though I know that I’m a little too late.
We are back at home, to the readers who don’t know my story, I’m following my uBPDh on his business trips to another city, 6 hrs away. I do that for many reasons; some of the rational behind is, he lives with “out of sight, out of mind” mentality, there isn’t any object permanency when it comes to the interpersonal relationships. He goes through initial stage of sadness and grief even, quickly replacing people, if they aren’t in close proximity of him. I’m trying to save our family, I see great potential in him, on the good days, I also don’t want to leave my children without a father and financial support that he provides. We are mostly away two weeks out of a month, this arrangement began in December of 2017 and lasted till now. I initially hoped that once his business is established and oiled up we won’t be spending as much time travelling. Little did I know, that will be picking up the speed and velocity rather quickly. He never discussed logistics and sacrifices that our family would have to endure for the sake of his success. It went in an unspoken agreement that I traveled along with him, and we would come back home once his partner took his turn staying and watching over the business. We are 5 months in, and it’s been very difficult. When we come back home to our children, he acts like an annoyed stranger who’s been forced into uncomfortable rooming arrangements. He hasn’t made any effort bonding with our two children, d14 and s10. While we are away they are being looked after by my parents, who live with is full time. It’s breaking my heart to see how ever so cautiously our children trying to elicit some kind of emotional bonding with my uBPDh, and he is distancing them from him, as if they weren’t his own flesh and blood. He leaves for work “at home”, we have another office in the same city we live in, and comes back around 4 pm, at his will, he calls it “executive hours”, meaning 4-5 hrs max. He is his own boss, so at work he watches iTube videos and hunts for new guns and ammo at the actions. It’s his way of killing time. When he is home, he appears annoyed, bored and agitated. Once he’s eaten early dinner he watches the news and politics, after he watches hockey and random you tube pranks. He doesn’t get up to check up on school work, or interact with the children, or do any kind of activity. There isn’t any genuine or otherwise interest to even speak to them. I didn’t notice it as much when we were living in the same place all the time, for one reason, as my therapist explained to me. The work that we were supposed to share, 50/50 in terms of nurturing and parenting, was done solemnly by me. I provided 100 % for the children and still manages to take care of my uBPDh’s needs. Now that we are traveling so much I can feel the void more then I ever have. My sole purpose for existence has been catering to his needs and making sure that his needs are met, while forgoing mine and my children’s. I’m greatly conflicted in terms of the next step, I believe that if, or more when, I stop accompanying him on the trips he will find a replacement, as he isn’t able to be alone. He will also try to deny reasonable financial suppport, moreover, he will try to make me pay for abandoning him through cutting down on the lifestyle that our children have been used to, just to hurt me. On the other hand, I feel the dissonance growing inside of me, and the void left by not seeing my children daily, or parenting then is crippling me to the core. I don’t remember being this conflicted in a long time.
On top of my inner struggles this home visit has been disappointing to say the least. He’s been steadily ignoring the children and me, preoccupied with silly videos and constantly demanding new video games. I have been doing my best at validating, not jadying and keeping him away from video gaming. When he plays, his addictive personality causes him to dysregulate and become verbally and emotionally abusive towards me and the kids. I know that it’s already happening because he refuses to look me in the eye, even facing me is out of the question. When I initiate a conversation it’s mono syllable or something exceptionally rude, to which I reply “we don’t speak to each other rudely/this way/ I won’t continue with disrespect between us”. He stops the insults and retreats inside of himself. He also doesn’t connect with me emotionally on a physical level. It’s never emotional moment that grows into sexual. His attempts at intimacy are one sided, at times he isn’t even looking at me. When he acknowledges, its as if he is bestowing his sexual advances on me, and I should be great full. I feel conflicted and depressed. One can’t share from an empty cup, and mine dried out for a while”. How do I begin to untangle this mess, while being proactive, pragmatic and practical?.

[snowglobe]

I feel so lonely, that I want to weep. It’s been so long since I was last caressed or looked at lovingly, I can’t even remember the last time. My uBPDh is lacking empathy or understanding of his actions. I’m trying hard to escape this triangle of playing a victim and holding him in a prosecutor role. For this road only leads to more drama. I don’t even have any more tears to shed. I made a decision to go all in, in hopes of keeping this family afloat long enough for his business to run its course and things go back to comfortable routine that included him having healthy sport hobby, me raising my kids, going to university, seeing my friends. I’ve sacrificed it all to keep him from finding a replacement for me. Do I really have that low of a self esteem to think I’m so easier replaced? Or do I just know him well enough to know that after spending 17 years with me, he doesn’t really know me, nor does he care to know.

[snowglobe]

I’m writing here to bring some kind of solace, an outlet, to find my peace within myself. My troublesome agreement clearly caused a lot of psychological issues within, I never felt myself worthy of love, interests or companionship, if it didn’t include sexual exploitation of my body or me serving the man. How do I begin to put the peaces together if it was never whole to beggin with. I’m working with a therapist for 3 weeks now, it’s a slow and difficult proces.

[babyducks]

Hi Snowglobe

How do I begin to put the peaces together if it was never whole to begin with. I’m working with a therapist for 3 weeks now, it’s a slow and difficult process.

That's a really good question and I am glad you asked it.    How do we put the pieces together if we weren't whole to start with.    The simple answer is we build a whole new person and a whole new approach to life.    and yes while that may sound 'simple'   it is very much a slow and difficult process.   it's also scary.   frightening.   

you start by modeling healthy behavior in small steps.    What do I mean?    well when you say to him "we don't speak to each other this way/rudely"  you are modeling healthy behavior.    and that has worked for you.     now pick the next item and model healthy behavior.

whose responsibility is it to regulate video game activity?   yours or his?

 

.
   He’s been steadily ignoring the children and me, preoccupied with silly videos and constantly demanding new video games. I have been doing my best at validating, not jadying and keeping him away from video gaming.   

you know you can't change how a person behaves, you can't make some one make healthy choices,  you can't force some one to act in ways beyond their capacity.    and you are completely correct, it's not sustainable to try.

so after dinner when he disappears back into you tube or a video game what would happen if you said 'it's a beautiful day, me and the kids are going to park for an hour come with us'   or 'I've wanted to see the new exhibit at the museum, the kids and I are thinking about going tomorrow after school'.

I am guessing you are going to say he won't come with you.    and you know what.   that's okay for right now.   you are going to keep modeling healthy behavior and go to the park for that hour.   everyone will be happier,   you, the kids and him.     him because he got what he wanted, which is to clearly be left alone.   you keep walking down a healthier road.    he may eventually follow you.   or he may not.     

this enmeshment you have with him is not going to work long term.    you have the inner strength to take the steps you need to make a whole and functioning you.    start with baby steps.   go back to school and finish your degree.    take up a hobby sport yourself.    go out to watch a live hockey game with the kids.   break the pattern any way you can.

sometimes the first step is the hardest one.

'ducks

[snowglobe]

Hi Snowglobe


That's a really good question and I am glad you asked it.    How do we put the pieces together if we weren't whole to start with.    The simple answer is we build a whole new person and a whole new approach to life.    and yes while that may sound 'simple'   it is very much a slow and difficult process.   it's also scary.   frightening.   

you start by modeling healthy behavior in small steps.    What do I mean?    well when you say to him "we don't speak to each other this way/rudely"  you are modeling healthy behavior.    and that has worked for you.     now pick the next item and model healthy behavior.

whose responsibility is it to regulate video game activity?   yours or his?

 
you know you can't change how a person behaves, you can't make some one make healthy choices,  you can't force some one to act in ways beyond their capacity.    and you are completely correct, it's not sustainable to try.

so after dinner when he disappears back into you tube or a video game what would happen if you said 'it's a beautiful day, me and the kids are going to park for an hour come with us'   or 'I've wanted to see the new exhibit at the museum, the kids and I are thinking about going tomorrow after school'.

I am guessing you are going to say he won't come with you.    and you know what.   that's okay for right now.   you are going to keep modeling healthy behavior and go to the park for that hour.   everyone will be happier,   you, the kids and him.     him because he got what he wanted, which is to clearly be left alone.   you keep walking down a healthier road.    he may eventually follow you.   or he may not.     

this enmeshment you have with him is not going to work long term.    you have the inner strength to take the steps you need to make a whole and functioning you.    start with baby steps.   go back to school and finish your degree.    take up a hobby sport yourself.    go out to watch a live hockey game with the kids.   break the pattern any way you can.

sometimes the first step is the hardest one.

'ducks

Can you please give me an example of the “next step” healthy behaviour? I wholeheartedly wish I could give the kids their dad, who converses with them daily, shows an interest in their lives, wants to spend time and resources on them. From their perspective it’s almost like living with a ghost. He is there in the flesh, but his heart hasn’t been there.
To answer- it’s his job to regulate himself, this much I know, the only reason for me setting that boundary with PlayStation is- I’m protecting myself and my children that I see half of the time from abuse. I’ve been sitting with myself last night- and realized. This separation and divorce I fear so much from the children, not being able to see them daily is already happening to me in other forms. I’m still living and breathing. I’m still making plans, life is forcing me to face my worst fears. Knowing my uBPDh it will be an ugly battle, which I would rather avoid at all costs. I don’t have any energy or fight in me left.

[snowglobe]

Dear “baby ducks”,
Thank you so much for replying to me,
This inmeshment, which also serves a purpose, allowing us to continue functioning as a family, is no longer a healthy coping tool. I’m not sure if it has ever been. I’ve been working so hard all these years on “us, we, ours”, so much so that now there isn’t any “me, mine” left. He is still continueing to live his best life, and I’ve become an extension of himself. He often hates this extension and burdened by it. I’ve fought with him all summer and part of fall to be able to accompany him on his trips in fears of infidelity, practicality- if he doesn’t pay to someone to clean, wash and cook, he will bring this money into our family budget. He also won’t go out and make new “friends” with benefits he so often tells me about.
I’ve been unsuccessful in my attempts to “capture” his interest and emotional investment. You are absolutely correct, the most frightening moment is right before the jump.

[Enabler]

Snowglobe, your emotional anguish is so real and apparent in your writing. You have described you impossible predicament and with all impossible predicaments there is unlikely to be a painless way out. You have tirelessly and honorably tried to protect everyone from hurt and maintain your family unit, and this is commendable. I'm a visuals guy and I see 2 visuals... .spinning plates and a game of twister. You are so desperate to avoid anyone getting hurt, you, your H and your kids that you dash around tying yourself up in knots attempting to keep all the plates spinning. Any one of the plates that falls will be painful and you feel as though if one falls, all of them will drop, crash to the floor, break and everyone's dreams will be shattered into a million pieces. Am I right?

You accept that it's impossible to keep all the plates spinning forever so really you're just kicking an inevitable can down the road, self sacrificing yourself for the sake of no one. Is anyone in this dynamic happy? Are the kids happy? Are you happy (you've already said you are not)? Is your H happy? From what you have said I strongly doubt that anyone is actually happy.

It feels like your primary choice here is ":)o I continue chaperoning my H on his work trips?". You believe you know the consequences of ceasing and those consequences are likely bad. But, he is an adult, he is an emotionally impaired adult but he is an adult none the less and capable of choice. Is it about time you prepared yourself for a plate or two to maybe drop so that you can concentrate on the plates you are supposed to be minding (like your kids, and you) and spin those in the best possible way?

This is not me suggesting you leave your husband, I am suggesting you allow him to be free to bare the consequences of his own choices devoid of your protection. This may result in one of you choosing to end the relationship because he chooses to behave inappropriately. This is easy for me to say I know, but the picture you paint is impossible to maintain and one plate will drop eventually. Stop caretaking the borderline.

[snowglobe]

Snowglobe, your emotional anguish is so real and apparent in your writing. You have described you impossible predicament and with all impossible predicaments there is unlikely to be a painless way out. You have tirelessly and honorably tried to protect everyone from hurt and maintain your family unit, and this is commendable. I'm a visuals guy and I see 2 visuals... .spinning plates and a game of twister. You are so desperate to avoid anyone getting hurt, you, your H and your kids that you dash around tying yourself up in knots attempting to keep all the plates spinning. Any one of the plates that falls will be painful and you feel as though if one falls, all of them will drop, crash to the floor, break and everyone's dreams will be shattered into a million pieces. Am I right?

You accept that it's impossible to keep all the plates spinning forever so really you're just kicking an inevitable can down the road, self sacrificing yourself for the sake of no one. Is anyone in this dynamic happy? Are the kids happy? Are you happy (you've already said you are not)? Is your H happy? From what you have said I strongly doubt that anyone is actually happy.

It feels like your primary choice here is ":)o I continue chaperoning my H on his work trips?". You believe you know the consequences of ceasing and those consequences are likely bad. But, he is an adult, he is an emotionally impaired adult but he is an adult none the less and capable of choice. Is it about time you prepared yourself for a plate or two to maybe drop so that you can concentrate on the plates you are supposed to be minding (like your kids, and you) and spin those in the best possible way?

This is not me suggesting you leave your husband, I am suggesting you allow him to be free to bare the consequences of his own choices devoid of your protection. This may result in one of you choosing to end the relationship because he chooses to behave inappropriately. This is easy for me to say I know, but the picture you paint is impossible to maintain and one plate will drop eventually. Stop caretaking the borderline.

Dead @Enabler,
The spinning plates that you are describing is exactly what I feel like living day to day. It’s extremly draining and unfulfilling to live this way, with no prediction of when we leave and come back. Always at his will, or worse other people’s. His control of me is beyond what I can describe, ranging from repremending me for spending time inefficiently (read not the way he wants me to), to belittling my physical appearance and financial control. He is then one who makes the money, his call is the final when it comes to purchases and decisions.
I’m terrified of his plate dropping, I’m fairly certain it will crack in some way. This 45 yo man is completely lacking emotional tools to function in a relationships when he isn’t being chaperoned. Adding his dysfunctional functioning within his foo I prepare myself for hostile take over. When his all his resources including time, effort, finances will be allocated to his narcissistic and BPD mother, and financially cunning and exploitive younger brother. I also fear that once I see this reality unfold, all of my motivation and perseverance will fade away and I will prepare for a combat to protect interests of mine and my children’s. it’s ironic how I always catch myself thinking “my” children. I often find myself locked in a power struggle over providing things that are in my children’s best interest or their needs. Extracurricular, education, therapy, money for clothes has to be coerced and earned by me, in order to be delivered to the children. It isn’t the fact that he can’t afford it, it’s the fact that he is frequently dangling a possibility of removing this support from them that stops me on my tracks and proves to be a very powerful manipulation tool on his part. Somewhat like this: “you don’t pay attention to me?. Bam, cut down or better yet quit d14 extracurricular activity. She is fat and hopeless anyway, nothing good will come out of her”. You don’t do as I say?. Bam, why are we spending so much money on s10 therapy. You don’t please me?. Bam, start cutting down on quality of food, your lifestyle is too “luxurious”.
When I write these sentences, I realize that his manipulation in “favourable circumstances” is shocking. It’s partly why I’m so frightened to start making changes within myself.

[formflier]

  I wholeheartedly wish I could give the kids their dad, who converses with them daily, shows an interest in their lives, wants to spend time and resources on them. 

   

This reminds me of thoughts I used to have a lot... .and sometimes still do.

For me... .I focused so much on controlling and fixing another person... .and giving that person to my kids (I wanted a mom for them that didn't accuse, yell ... .basically do BPDish stuff)... .that I didn't focus on what I could give them.


Summer 2014 was a big time for me... .as I made a shift to "be in my kids world"... .to be deliberate about improving my  relationship with each of my kids... .and trust they would sort our their relationships with others.

The difference in my life and my relationships has been amazing.  Frankly... .my wife has calmed as well, although when she does have episodes... .perhaps they seem more extreme... .or perhaps they are just more shocking because they are more infrequent.

Back to you... .

Please reflect in therapy if you are not giving yourself to your kids and others... .because you are trying to deliver your husband (kids father).   Or at least the version of a husband/father you want to show up.

FF

[snowglobe]

 

This reminds me of thoughts I used to have a lot... .and sometimes still do.

For me... .I focused so much on controlling and fixing another person... .and giving that person to my kids (I wanted a mom for them that didn't accuse, yell ... .basically do BPDish stuff)... .that I didn't focus on what I could give them.


Summer 2014 was a big time for me... .as I made a shift to "be in my kids world"... .to be deliberate about improving my  relationship with each of my kids... .and trust they would sort our their relationships with others.

The difference in my life and my relationships has been amazing.  Frankly... .my wife has calmed as well, although when she does have episodes... .perhaps they seem more extreme... .or perhaps they are just more shocking because they are more infrequent.

Back to you... .

Please reflect in therapy if you are not giving yourself to your kids and others... .because you are trying to deliver your husband (kids father).   Or at least the version of a husband/father you want to show up.

FF

Dear @formlier,
Thank you for yet again lighting a way for me too see more clearly. Your steady emotional support enabled me to compartmentalise separate issues and to adress them in more thought out way. With your insight and ability to dissect the issues, I was able to see my role in our conflicts. As a result the bleeding has almost stopped. Almost... .now, in calmer waters I see the underlying issues more clearly. One of the problems I have, is that no therapist is taking responsibility to guide or help me discover what the right path to follow. My uBPDh black and white thinking isn’t allowing flexibility in the travel arrangement. It’s kind of all or nothing approach. Either you come every time, or stay home and I will get over it, building myself a separate life away, without you and the kids. I don’t doubt that somewhere deep inside he has the love for his family. Yet, his constant issue of loyalty with primary female role, aka me vs his mom, competing demands: providing for his family vs providing for foo, unhealthy situations: spending quality time with us vs observing his high brother doing “boys things”, combined with his changing attitude towards us (family) is greatly affecting my well being

[formflier]

  My uBPDh black and white thinking isn’t allowing flexibility in the travel arrangement. It’s kind of all or nothing approach.

So... .what is your role in this?

Why do I ask?

You don't control his thinking... .you do control yours.

I've got to ask about "basis in fact".  How many times has he actually replaced you with another woman in the 17 years (I think I have that number right) of marriage? 

I get it... .that he has run his mouth a lot (BPDish people tend to do that... .)

Last:  Thanks for your kind words... .to give credit where credit is due "the bucket analogy" came to me from Babyducks and I've found it very helpful.  It ties in nicely with personal boundaries... .to also put boundaries around problems. 

Problems have a way of conflating themselves... .which is usually unhelpful.

FF

[snowglobe]

So... .what is your role in this?

Why do I ask?

You don't control his thinking... .you do control yours.

I've got to ask about "basis in fact".  How many times has he actually replaced you with another woman in the 17 years (I think I have that number right) of marriage? 

I get it... .that he has run his mouth a lot (BPDish people tend to do that... .)

Last:  Thanks for your kind words... .to give credit where credit is due "the bucket analogy" came to me from Babyducks and I've found it very helpful.  It ties in nicely with personal boundaries... .to also put boundaries around problems. 

Problems have a way of conflating themselves... .which is usually unhelpful.

FF

I imagine you are asking me for my role because I fought so hard to be able to come with him on the business trips... .it was a way of ensuring that we stay connected and keeping our family intact. Circumstances changed, what I throught was an occasional overnight trip, became more of the living arrangement.
What do you do to eliminate persuasive thoughts? It’s like a broken record playing inside of me, if you stop interjecting yourself, saving the day, being useful he will replace and leave you... .(all stemming from the small talks he has had with me over the years) aka “ I love you only as long as I find you useful. If you aren’t saving me, playing a daily role in my life, paying attention to me I will find someone who will. You better believe, I can afford it. “ the other side says “how can you leave your children for such prolonged period of time when they need you the most?. Even when you come back home, you are placating him and trying to divert his attention to the family, thus taking away from the children. What do my children see?. Mom chasing ever escaping dad?. They didn’t choose to be born, it was your choice. How can you choose him over us? (Something my d14 says lately)
I am not aware of him actually committing infidelity, I’ve only witnessed one emotional somewhat affair with an employee overseas. He was communicating with her in questionable way, she was flattering him, and he was Sharing his daily life with her. They never met physically and I wrote to her to leave him alone. In his correspondence with her I read peculiar things that surprised me. First, the other woman was asking about me. He obligated her interest responding: when she asked “what is your wife like?” He replied “she is an amazing mother”. At first I couldn’t put my finger on it, but then I realized that his response wasn’t: we are close, she is beautiful, we understand each other, I love her, anything indicating our relationships” what I saw was, through his eyes I was only a mother of his children. The other woman (his employee) was just a woman, who he asked about her day, shared his day, laughed at weather, it was plain as day, his flirting was outside of professional grounds. Yes, he didn’t seek her out, she crossed the professional boundaries first, yet narcissistic personality in him couldn’t fight the allure of flattery and ego boost. When I saw her pictures and did a compare cement in terms of looks and iq, as most women do, I laughed. She had nothing on me. Yet, this seeming innocent occurrence left a long lasting aftertaste of mistrust.

[formflier]

Thanks for the quick response... I know it's a hard topic.

Was there anything "romantic" or "sexual" in the correspondence you wrote?

Anything else at all in the correspondence that you considered "inappropriate" or "unprofessional".

Again... I know these things can be tough to think through... .  You have made amazing changes in the way you interact with your hubby... .that's obvious in your posts.

My hope is that you can build on your momentum... .towards a healthier you... a healthier family.

FF

[snowglobe]

Thanks for the quick response... I know it's a hard topic.

Was there anything "romantic" or "sexual" in the correspondence you wrote?

Anything else at all in the correspondence that you considered "inappropriate" or "unprofessional".

Again... I know these things can be tough to think through... .  You have made amazing changes in the way you interact with your hubby... .that's obvious in your posts.

My hope is that you can build on your momentum... .towards a healthier you... a healthier family.

FF

@formflier,
In their correspondence I could see a plain flattery on her part, living in a third world country and working for my husband’s company she was trying to land herself “the boss” and immigration ticket. Phrases such as “where have you been all day, I began to worry/miss you/ have you see xyz (business stats) you must be worried (outside of her job description and competency) validation and fishing for common grounds, poetry and lyrics reciting, invitation to come and visit her country “you should come, I will show you xyz, it’s lovely this time of year. Praising his good looks and humour, “wow, I couldn’t not stop laughing at the joke you made, it lights up my entire week” are among things I clearly remember. It’s been 10 years... .his replies were “oh, my day went ok, tell me more about your country, I was busy but meant to reply... .” it was one of the hardest times in our marriage, it took every ounce of self control to fight through the “gas lightning” “you crazy b$&tch, how dare you spy on me?. It’s all on your stupid head, she is there and I’m here, she is my employee and there isn’t anything going on”. Yet, every time he opened his messenger and smiled while typing away I knew it was her he was talking to... .

[formflier]

Hey... .  

I know this is hard to talk about... .yet it is important that when we are communicating on here... .that there is clarity.

Was there anything sexual?

Was there anything romantic?

I definitely have the vibe of the communications that you have described... .

 

FF

[snowglobe]

@formflier, the changes are undeniable, I am very proud of every self restraining attempt to lash back, for every insult I haven’t returned, every bait I let go of. Yet, this emotional self control and restrain also lowered any positive emotion out of our marriage. He doesn’t seek me emotionally or physically, it feels... .empty... on his part. His gaze doesn’t return emotionally charged longing, his replies and curt and concise, he prefers his own company to me or the kids. The facts are stubborn and aren’t in my favour- he comes home everyday. Yet, I can’t help but observe that he has no emotional investment in these relationships. My birthday is coming up, he purchased obscenely expensive jewelry in lei of it, yet, it’s not because he wants to make me happy or express his love. It’s his business card whenever he mingles in his business world, my gratitude is secondary to his social status. Many women would object to what I’m saying, he bought it for me, not anyone else, I should be great full and delighted. Great full I am, yet, I would much rather prefer a lovely day talking to him, spending time with him, talking to him, having him look at me, and see me, tell me that he loves me... .financial resources are a beautiful asset and way of obtaining certain goals and achieving relative freedom. It doesn’t buy happiness, we have to work on it within ourselves. His idea of happiness is to through a gift at me and expect it to fix any problems “you have”

[snowglobe]

Hey... .  

I know this is hard to talk about... .yet it is important that when we are communicating on here... .that there is clarity.

Was there anything sexual?

Was there anything romantic?

I definitely have the vibe of the communications that you have described... .

 

FF

There was definitely flirting on both parts, send me your picture and I will send you mine, what do you wish for/dream of?. (Emotional intimacy) you are such a handsome guy (he really is very handsome). The minute he gets this kind of flattery, he is sold. The npd in him is just as high as BPD. He frequently talks about being featured in news and media (wishful thinking for now), shameless self promotion and exaggeration on his achievements, net worth and social connection, name dropping and Bragging. That girl, she saw right through him, I’m fairly certain that there wasn’t anything sexual going on, she was overseas in another country. It was somewhat emotional affair he was carrying out while our son was 8 months old.

[formflier]

Please... .I'm not trying to badger you... this is critical to be clear about.

Was there anything romantic (which I would say is different that "flirty" going on?

Was there anything sexual going on?  

To be clear... .if you say "no... .nothing sexual was mentioned"... that does it for me... .same for romantic.

   

With these kinds of things... .it is so important to get to exactly what was actually said... .and put that side by side with how those words were interpreted... .and perhaps how those words were intended.

Said another way... .communicating about incredibly emotionally charged issues is hard... .yet it must be done to have a good chance to move forward.

 



FF

[formflier]

In fact... .if there is more you have to add about "flirty"... .please add.  I think I have a vibe.

What I'm seeing is a description of her "flirting" with him... and him being "friendly" in return.  I do see that you mention flirting on both parts... .what exactly did that read like from your husband?

Do I have that right?  (I get it... I may not... .clarity important)

FF

[snowglobe]

Please... .I'm not trying to badger you... this is critical to be clear about.

Was there anything romantic (which I would say is different that "flirty" going on?

Was there anything sexual going on?  

To be clear... .if you say "no... .nothing sexual was mentioned"... that does it for me... .same for romantic.

   

With these kinds of things... .it is so important to get to exactly what was actually said... .and put that side by side with how those words were interpreted... .and perhaps how those words were intended.

Said another way... .communicating about incredibly emotionally charged issues is hard... .yet it must be done to have a good chance to move forward.

 



FF

Not to my knowledge sexual, never read anything in that nature. Yes to romantic, “I missed talking to you tiday” “I missed you too, sorry had to deal with work related problems”. I managed to nip it in the butt, so to speak before it progressed into something more. On several occasions when his computer was open and she was whining for him, I wrote something along these lines: “ hello xwy, I’m Snowglobe wife, he isn’t available at the moment. Your correspondence with my husband is utterly inappropriate and unprofessional to say the least. He is married and has two children, but you already knew that. Due to your behaviour, I see no other option but to report your behaviour to my husband’s partners. Surely the won’t condone you using work time and chats on flirting and discussing nonsense, while distracting my husband from work”. After several of those her advances died out and she left my husband alone. Their correspondence changed to curt replied and professional ccing about client issues.

[snowglobe]

In fact... .if there is more you have to add about "flirty"... .please add.  I think I have a vibe.

What I'm seeing is a description of her "flirting" with him... and him being "friendly" in return.  I do see that you mention flirting on both parts... .what exactly did that read like from your husband?

Do I have that right?  (I get it... I may not... .clarity important)

FF

He was flirting back, undeniably, sending her personal pictures and sharing intimate parts of his day. I wasn’t feeling like working today because I was ... .you have beautiful smile (after she sent him a picture), I would love to come and see your country, let’s plan what I would visit (fantasy plannning)

[formflier]

Not to my knowledge sexual, never read anything in that nature. Yes to romantic, “I missed talking to you tiday” “I missed you too, sorry had to deal with work related problems”. 

OK... .so is there any other type of communication that you considered romantic?

Thanks for answering the sexual question.

Again... .I understand this stuff is hard to remember and work through.

Please think through the other question about "flirty".  Do you consider flirty and romantic different? 

If there are examples of flirty that you haven't shared... .please share so there is an accurate picture.

Am I correct that your husband and this lady never met in person?

FF

[formflier]

We are cross posting some... .I think if you look through the post above... about differences in romance and flirting... .and if they met in person... .I think I'll be done with my questions.

Again... thanks for info... .  

FF

[snowglobe]

@formflier,
You are absolutely correct about the “vibe”. Do you see it now that I don’t trust him being away alone? Every time I leave he behaves inappropriately. Like a stray dog he follows anyone who flatters him or makes him feel special. His connections are instantaneous and impulsive, there isn’t time given to build strong foundation. One minute he is infatuated and fully committed to the relationships to the point of it costing his family (talking about friendship and family of origin) another minute he is bored and rejecting the same people sending them into silent treatment. At risk of sounding vulgar, it’s like porn, sure he knows, in theory that it’s a paid act, yet, he doesn’t care and it takes care of some needs he has. Relationships are largely superficial, largely dependent on amount of flattery and validation he gets. The more he behaves inappropriately, and the more the other party validated his behaviour, the stronger the bond being forged

[snowglobe]

OK... .so is there any other type of communication that you considered romantic?

Thanks for answering the sexual question.

Again... .I understand this stuff is hard to remember and work through.

Please think through the other question about "flirty".  Do you consider flirty and romantic different? 

If there are examples of flirty that you haven't shared... .please share so there is an accurate picture.

Am I correct that your husband and this lady never met in person?

FF

She was a person working at one of his call centres in another location overseas. They never met in person, because he never travelled to her country.
The difference between flirty vs romantic for me is that romantic relations imply some level of emotional bond being established. Whereas flirting is more like resting the waters and seeing if that romantic bond can be established. To my knowledged it never moved to a romantic level, although it was plain as day that it was more then working conversations. I never seen him exchange personal information nor pictures with other female coworkers or being so concerned with other employees in the same office.

[formflier]

  I never seen him exchange personal information nor pictures with other female coworkers or being so concerned with other employees in the same office.

You know him best... .why do you think this is?

FF

[snowglobe]

I’m not sure if it would ever progress to be honest with you, when I saw her photos, she didn’t look “up to his standards”. She looked a little chubby and not all beautiful in his “model like” taste preferences. Although, human psyche is a complicated network, she must have met some of the needs he had at that time. If she lived in the proximity, I would have been more concerned

[snowglobe]

You know him best... .why do you think this is?

FF

Because they don’t approach him, she was. Anyone who seeks his company and attention usually gets in his good graces rather quickly. He is a bit awkward socially, but if he gets any female attention, he purks up rather quickly

[formflier]

  but if he gets any female attention, he purks up rather quickly

Does he reject male attention?

FF

[snowglobe]

Does he reject male attention?

FF

Not completely, but it’s not the same level of infatuation and instant intimacy. He also gets tired of “friendship” rather quickly. He seldomly reciprocated to any invites coming from male friends, unless it’s his foo, or he was antsy that day.

[formflier]

Not completely, but it’s not the same level of infatuation and instant intimacy. He also gets tired of “friendship” rather quickly. He seldomly reciprocated to any invites coming from male friends, unless it’s his foo, or he was antsy that day.

To be clear... .is this his description of his thought process and how he views male and female attention?

Or is is your opinion based on your knowledge of him?

Again for clarity... .does he reciprocate invites from females friends and not male friends?  (that line peeked my interest... .and seems very relevant)

FF

[snowglobe]

To be clear... .is this his description of his thought process and how he views male and female attention?

Or is is your opinion based on your knowledge of him?

Again for clarity... .does he reciprocate invites from females friends and not male friends?  (that line peeked my interest... .and seems very relevant)

FF

He doesn’t respond to male attention in the same way he does to female, from my observation. He entered into manic state, I posted another topic, @formflier, if you can, please advise.

[formflier]

I will check out the other topic. 

Does he accept female invites in a different way that may invites? 

Or... .do females not invio him out for things?

FF

[snowglobe]

I will check out the other topic. 

Does he accept female invites in a different way that may invites? 

Or... .do females not invio him out for things?

FF

He doesn’t have females in his life other then our mutual friends, so there aren’t too many invites coming his way. Regarding male interaction, as well as female, as long as the other party is validating and constantly praising and fostering him, he maintains the relationships. Once the other party is having a difference in political option for instance, or doubts his exaggerated and inflated ego or achievements, they are immediately discarded and labeled and stupid, incompetent and ignorant.

[formflier]

Snowglobe,

Good job working through a number of detailed questions that were likely unpleasant to work through...  

I'm going to reflect on the posts tonight... .and try to put together some thoughts for you to discuss with your T.  We do want to be careful and upfront since there is apparently a fairly new T situation... .that there are not competing advice sources... or that what you get from bpdfamily and your T are working at odds.

A good T and a forum like this should "compliment" each other... .

So...

Can you briefly describe what you T has said you guys will be working on or what areas she wants to understand better?

Can you describe some of the things that your husband does well... .things that you appreciate about him?

Hang in there... .stay big picture... .as you have said... the tools are working... time is getting close to dig into issues (without conflict) and see where you and the relationship can go!

FF

[snowglobe]

To clearify,
I’m working with T alone, uBPDh claims that I’m the one with a problem and should deal with it. He knows he has issues but doesn’t believe he needs help or intervention. Furthermore, him admitting to his symptoms indirectly means he will be “watched” and is risking to “loose his guns and ammo”, which is equivalent to loosing his testicles in his mind. By the way I was describing my situation, the T believes that my uBPDh is beyond any hope of recovery and she wants to focus on getting me “mentally fit”, aka working on codependentcy, self esteem, anxiety and fear. Yesterday, while concluding our session, she said similar to Margalis Fjelstad. I’m dealing with npd as well as npd. I’m extremly successful at surviving in difficult circumstances, but my uBPDh will never change or get better. This prognosis made me very anxious and depressed, to be honest. If there isn’t any hope, why keep on trying?. That’s why I’m turning here for advice and guidance. I hope it’s only one persons opinion.

[formflier]

 I’m extremly successful at surviving in difficult circumstances, but my uBPDh will never change or get better. This prognosis made me very anxious and depressed, to be honest.  

Are you sure you heard this correctly?  The part about him never changing or getting better.


Has your T examined, tested or even spent time with your hubby?

So... .the purpose of me going to T is to (please fill in the blank?

What has the T said about what you two will be working on?

other 2 questions are still hanging out there as well. (what has T said you will be working on?... .what does your hubby do well and that you appreciate him for?)

FF

[snowglobe]

Are you sure you heard this correctly?  The part about him never changing or getting better.


Has your T examined, tested or even spent time with your hubby?

So... .the purpose of me going to T is to (please fill in the blank?

What has the T said about what you two will be working on?

other 2 questions are still hanging out there as well. (what has T said you will be working on?... .what does your hubby do well and that you appreciate him for?)

FF

She hasn’t met him, nor did she test him. Based on the dynamics I described she “suspects” not only BPD but npd. From her 20+ practice as a psychotherapist she has never seen a miraculous recovery, when pressed by me in her prognosis. Years of work, investment and a desire are fundamental in his recovery and healing himself and helping us to function as a unit.
The purpose of me seeking help is that I’m exhibiting symptoms of anxiety and depression. They are caused by socioeconomic factors, my son’s disability and my uBPDh’s mental illness. She doesn’t recommend me leaving these relationships for now. She is cautiously trying to explain that living this way is detrimental to my self esteem and personal development. It’s very early in the treatment plan, we tackle one issue per session. She is working on my unresolved dynamics that caused me to adapt caregiver’s role as a surviving mechanism. She also says that once I start detaching from these relationships and heal within, new possibilities will open. Something that I’m fearful of and adamant about not going through ( I read separation and divorce) otherwise she sees no role or involvement working with the current situation. I’m not sure if I will stick with T long term, I kind of want to wait and see. Unfortunately, the BPD stigma is living to its reputation.

To answer your question- she is working on my dynamics and schema learnt from foo, self esteem that came from care taking, codependency, fear of unknown, inflexible and fearful pattern of thinking

[snowglobe]

What I like about him- honest recap:
Today I struggle to see beyond my children’s livelihood depending on him.
On the good days he was a good lover, good listener, problem solver, very handsome and intelligent man, his actions always spoke volume. No price was too high when it came to his children’s well being. His can be generous and kind, on occasion. He has a wicked sense of humour and infectious excitement about life. On the “up” days I can’t believe I hit this Jackpot. He is also a good provider, I have been finically taker care of for the past 11 years. I genuinely love him, and still hold some hope for our future. Thank you, FormFlier for reminding me of that 

[formflier]

She hasn’t met him, nor did she test him. Based on the dynamics I described she “suspects” not only BPD but npd. From her 20+ practice as a psychotherapist she has never seen a miraculous recovery, when pressed by me in her prognosis. Years of work, investment and a desire are fundamental in his recovery and healing himself and helping us to function as a unit.
 

OK... .that's about what I thought.

She is talking in general terms.

However... .I would encourage you to clarify this at the top of the next appointment.

Here is the thing... .if she really is making a professional judgment that it is hopeless... he won't ever get better... .you need to understand that.  (I really don't believe she intends you to understand that message)

I believe that when pressed by you... .she indicated and you heard that this is a big challenge (which it is).

I would also encourage you two to discuss appropriateness of making further judgments or speculation about people not involved in therapy with her.  (for clarity... .I give her the benefit of the doubt that she didn't intend to do this... .I believe the intended to give you a broad overview of what you are up against)

Said another way... .I doubt she ever intended for you to say to others "my therapist's professional judgment is my husband is unable to or will never change"

It is likely a good place in therapy to discuss what she said/intended and what you heard and how you are using what you heard.

In other words... .I would doubt this communication style/choice is unique to this one conversation... .but something that could be addressed by learning new skills in therapy.

   

FF

[formflier]

What I like about him- honest recap:
Today I struggle to see beyond my children’s livelihood depending on him.
On the good days he was a good lover, good listener, problem solver, very handsome and intelligent man, his actions always spoke volume. No price was too high when it came to his children’s well being. His can be generous and kind, on occasion. He has a wicked sense of humour and infectious excitement about life. On the “up” days I can’t believe I hit this Jackpot. He is also a good provider, I have been finically taker care of for the past 11 years. I genuinely love him, and still hold some hope for our future. Thank you, FormFlier for reminding me of that 

I would encourage you to print this and take this with you to therapy.

I'll also make some further comments... .likely tomorrow after I reflect on all this a while.

I commend you for taking the step to work with a therapist.  My current T relationship is over two years old now and my life and relationships are so much better.  In my case, my wife spent enough joint and individual time with my psychologist that the P was able to understand "how my wife works"... and advise me about specifics.

   

FF

[snowglobe]

I would encourage you to print this and take this with you to therapy.

I'll also make some further comments... .likely tomorrow after I reflect on all this a while.

I commend you for taking the step to work with a therapist.  My current T relationship is over two years old now and my life and relationships are so much better.  In my case, my wife spent enough joint and individual time with my psychologist that the P was able to understand "how my wife works"... and advise me about specifics.

   

FF

She cautions and discourages me from talking about “him”, as she is working on my unresolved issues. Yet, I can’t stop talking about our relationships, dynamics and struggles, it’s on the forefront of my mind. To be specific- you gave me a specific communication tool, walk away when you are being ranted on, set boundaries, initiate contact in non confrontational manner. Clear simple comprehensive. Most importantly, it works, from Early December to now its leaps and bounds on how far he’s gone in verbal association. I need more practical tools for bettering, improving and healing.

[formflier]

She cautions and discourages me from talking about “him”, as she is working on my unresolved issues. Yet, I can’t stop talking about our relationships, dynamics and struggles, it’s on the forefront of my mind. To be specific- you gave me a specific communication tool, walk away when you are being ranted on, set boundaries, initiate contact in non confrontational manner. Clear simple comprehensive. Most importantly, it works, from Early December to now its leaps and bounds on how far he’s gone in verbal association. I need more practical tools for bettering, improving and healing.

How many sessions have you had so far?

Do you like your T... feel like it's a good fit? 

Is this your first time ever working with a T?

So... .I think you are in a good place.  You are hungry for more... .you've tried some tools and (as predicted)... .they worked.

Did you ask your hubby's permission?  Did you need his cooperation?

It's important you realize that... and are clear... .crystal clear about the above two questions.  Please answer them directly in your response to this post.

I get it you want more of that.  My guess is you T will help you roll play some... .will give you more tools.  Hmm... how do I say this.  That's the "easy" part of therapy... .or I should say "easier"

What's the hard part?

For instance... "When presented with a situation, why do I NOT choose the most parsimonious explanation, especially if it has to do with motivations of someone else"

To figure that out... .there will be lots of layers... .lots of sorting out what is a fact... .and what is an interpretation... and why did I "interpret" something a certain way.


FF

[snowglobe]

How many sessions have you had so far?

Do you like your T... feel like it's a good fit? 

Is this your first time ever working with a T?

So... .I think you are in a good place.  You are hungry for more... .you've tried some tools and (as predicted)... .they worked.

Did you ask your hubby's permission?  Did you need his cooperation?

It's important you realize that... and are clear... .crystal clear about the above two questions.  Please answer them directly in your response to this post.

I get it you want more of that.  My guess is you T will help you roll play some... .will give you more tools.  Hmm... how do I say this.  That's the "easy" part of therapy... .or I should say "easier"

What's the hard part?

For instance... "When presented with a situation, why do I NOT choose the most parsimonious explanation, especially if it has to do with motivations of someone else"

To figure that out... .there will be lots of layers... .lots of sorting out what is a fact... .and what is an interpretation... and why did I "interpret" something a certain way.


FF

I’ve completed 3 weeks, twice a week an hour sessions. My initial consult was 2 hrs, during which the T told me that because she is working with me alone, she wants to solemnly focus on My issues (fair enough).
I am not sure if she is helpful. Yes, I like her, but her no nonsense approach, about me not being able to change the situation throws me off balance. If he is npd and BPD, as she suspects, there isn’t anything that I can do, I’m only wasting my time being with him. He is a mentally ill person, I have my own psychological issues stemming from being raised by BPD, in her opinion it’s like two addicts that are being together. Isn’t a good idea. On several occasions she voiced her concern for mine and my children’s safety with my uBPDh obsession with guns and zombies. Hits close to home, as he is refusing any kind of evaluation in fear of loosing his “toys” (why that is? I’m also registered user, and have no issue being assessed, I know I have no desire to hurt or kill anyone, what does he have to worry about?)
My husband doesn’t know that I work with a T, in my previous attempts to seek help, he cut my financial allowance, making it impossible to finance therapy, called me crazy, insulted daily, called me a traitor for sharing our struggles. Nor do I seek his permission, I know that this adaptation of his thinking is driving me insane.

[formflier]

 about me not being able to change the situation throws me off balance.

 If he is npd and BPD, as she suspects, there isn’t anything that I can do, I’m only wasting my time being with him.

 

I'm going to be frank.  I don't think she intended you to understand this as her message to you.

You have already seen that there is a lot that YOU can do... without your hubby's permission... to change the situation a great deal.  Right?

Yet... .there are limits... .you get to control you... .you don't get to control him.

You need guidance understanding those limits.  I think that is her point (but please clarify with her)

Again... .there are things you can do that will get results... .you have already seen that.  Right?

FF

[snowglobe]

I'm going to be frank.  I don't think she intended you to understand this as her message to you.

You have already seen that there is a lot that YOU can do... without your hubby's permission... to change the situation a great deal.  Right?

Yet... .there are limits... .you get to control you... .you don't get to control him.

You need guidance understanding those limits.  I think that is her point (but please clarify with her)

Again... .there are things you can do that will get results... .you have already seen that.  Right?

FF

I have seen the change and I do hold out hope for our future. @formflier, this crisis caught me off guard, I didnt even realize I’m in a midst of the eye of the storm till I received the feedback from you and other members here. What I thought, wasn’t accurate reflection of my own participation in this predicament. It happened, in part because of my own defiance and inability to accept his point of view. Yes, it’s bewildering, yet I don’t go about changing other people’s opinions, other then him. I want to quick fix and guarantee that this “crazy” will be over at some point. Yet, the work is all mine, and I don’t understand why I need to work on me, to change him. Some of the work is too painful to revisit, yet it’s the very base of the issues that I add the fuel to. He married me, all the while knowing everything, it was me insisting on having a second religious ceremony inside of his church. It’s my own disappointment with religion and faith not protecting our sacred marriage that I have to deal with.

[formflier]

  It’s my own disappointment with religion and faith not protecting our sacred marriage that I have to deal with.

I'm asking you to take a lot to T... .your T has probably explained that only so many things can "be on the plate" at one time.

So... .discuss and trust her to guide you... to help determine what issues can be put on hold while other issues are "dealt with". 

Especially if you think something should be dealt with right now... .and she is advising to wait... ask questions to understand why... .but... .I would trust her judgment as she helps guide you.

Ok... .whose responsibility is it to protect your marriage? 

I notice that you use the word "sacred"... .to describe your marriage... .yet profess to be agnostic.

Please... .don't hear judgment... .don't hear right or wrong from me.  Please do here that those concepts are unusual to be paired together.

I will be judgmental and say that it may be a while before you get to that in T... .that's likely several layers down as things get "peeled back"

Listen... .religion... .belief... .those are core things for any person.  So... .how we express those things to the world "says" stuff to the rest of the world about our core beliefs.

I'm not interested in changing you or putting you in some sort of mold.  I AM interested in that you understand your core belief(s) and that you understand how you will put those into action... or inaction.

There are many things I do and don't do in my life because of what I believe.  There have been times when I have acted against those beliefs and/or figured it wouldn't matter in this instance (for some reason)... .by and large I ended up very confused, feeling icky, mad, disappointed, hurt... .etc etc.

FF

[babyducks]

Snowglobe,

It takes a while to establish trust and build a relationship with a therapist.   a lot longer than three visits.   give it time.

she is working on my dynamics and schema learnt from foo, self esteem that came from care taking, codependency, fear of unknown, inflexible and fearful pattern of thinking

I think it's a very good idea to focus on you, to turn your creative energies into understanding you.  I would support and encourage you to continue looking at some of the things that were raised here.    For those of us who experienced trauma in our early lives, we tend to have a different reaction to trauma as adults.   Could that be tied into the fearful pattern of thinking?

She cautions and discourages me from talking about “him”, as she is working on my unresolved issues. Yet, I can’t stop talking about our relationships, dynamics and struggles, it’s on the forefront of my mind. To be specific- you gave me a specific communication tool, walk away when you are being ranted on, set boundaries, initiate contact in non confrontational manner. Clear simple comprehensive. Most importantly, it works, from Early December to now its leaps and bounds on how far he’s gone in verbal association. I need more practical tools for bettering, improving and healing.

Again I think this is a good approach, and while it may appear confusing I believe there is good reason she cautions you from talking about him and redirects you into your own issues.    As hard as it is to accept there is no quick fix and the no guarentee that the crazy may be over at some point.    The place to find long and lasting progress is within ourselves.

'ducks

[Cat Familiar]

Snowglobe,

I want to echo babyducks' message about taking time to trust and build a relationship with one's therapist. Also I agree with formflier that your T is probably speaking in generalities about BPD and NPD.

That said, personality disorders are unlikely to ever go away totally, but through working on ourselves, we can successfully and more likely, happily, manage living with someone with a PD.

Everyone brings baggage to a relationship and there's always "stuff" to deal with after the glow of the "honeymoon phase" has worn off. We've read these fairytale endings of "Happily Ever After" and then we're disappointed when we don't find this in our lives, but it's an ideal, not a certainty, and even if partners don't have PDs, there's still issues to deal with.

So much of your story resonates with me: I shared a business with my ex-husband; I had to keep a close eye on him or he'd take up with the nearest woman (It sounds like you're worried about that, but that you haven't experienced it so far with your husband); my ex was verbally abusive and criticized my appearance, my weight (even though I never was overweight)--he thought he should have someone who looked like a 14 year old runway model; my current husband can so easily be manipulated through praise and is quite undiscerning about others' motivations if they tell him how wonderful, smart, talented he is.

As you know, it's no picnic living with someone with a PD. However, other people have different burdens, such as living with someone with an autoimmune disease, limited mobility, etc. In those cases, there are "adaptive devices" or treatments that the healthy partner needs to assist with. BPD and NPD present the same situation. We need to adapt our communication to our loved ones in such a way that they feel understood and nurtured.

Accepting this was really frustrating and difficult for me. Why can't I just speak my mind and say what I need to say, like I was communicating with a "normal person"? It took a long time for me to get over the anger and resentment about this, particularly since I had so much baggage from living with BPD individuals since birth.

But when I did, much like how you've discovered that there's less conflict in trying new ways, suddenly my life became so much simpler. In some ways, it's less "intimate" than it was, but I was comparing how it was at the idealization stage in the beginning, when he was mirroring me and basically I fell in love with "me" looking back at myself.

Now I don't "set him off" nearly as much as I once did and when he starts dysregulating, I can "reel him in" and quiet him down. I'm not a parent, but I imagine the strategy isn't too different from dealing with an upset toddler. In my case, I do the same thing with my horses.

Anyway, I hope you give therapy time to help. Yes, it's "unfair" that you are working on your issues when his issues impact you and the children, but you are the only one you have full control over, so it makes sense that being able to change your behavior will change the dynamic in your relationship.

   
Cat

[snowglobe]

Snowglobe,

I want to echo babyducks' message about taking time to trust and build a relationship with one's therapist. Also I agree with formflier that your T is probably speaking in generalities about BPD and NPD.

That said, personality disorders are unlikely to ever go away totally, but through working on ourselves, we can successfully and more likely, happily, manage living with someone with a PD.

Everyone brings baggage to a relationship and there's always "stuff" to deal with after the glow of the "honeymoon phase" has worn off. We've read these fairytale endings of "Happily Ever After" and then we're disappointed when we don't find this in our lives, but it's an ideal, not a certainty, and even if partners don't have PDs, there's still issues to deal with.

So much of your story resonates with me: I shared a business with my ex-husband; I had to keep a close eye on him or he'd take up with the nearest woman (It sounds like you're worried about that, but that you haven't experienced it so far with your husband); my ex was verbally abusive and criticized my appearance, my weight (even though I never was overweight)--he thought he should have someone who looked like a 14 year old runway model; my current husband can so easily be manipulated through praise and is quite undiscerning about others' motivations if they tell him how wonderful, smart, talented he is.

As you know, it's no picnic living with someone with a PD. However, other people have different burdens, such as living with someone with an autoimmune disease, limited mobility, etc. In those cases, there are "adaptive devices" or treatments that the healthy partner needs to assist with. BPD and NPD present the same situation. We need to adapt our communication to our loved ones in such a way that they feel understood and nurtured.

Accepting this was really frustrating and difficult for me. Why can't I just speak my mind and say what I need to say, like I was communicating with a "normal person"? It took a long time for me to get over the anger and resentment about this, particularly since I had so much baggage from living with BPD individuals since birth.

But when I did, much like how you've discovered that there's less conflict in trying new ways, suddenly my life became so much simpler. In some ways, it's less "intimate" than it was, but I was comparing how it was at the idealization stage in the beginning, when he was mirroring me and basically I fell in love with "me" looking back at myself.

Now I don't "set him off" nearly as much as I once did and when he starts dysregulating, I can "reel him in" and quiet him down. I'm not a parent, but I imagine the strategy isn't too different from dealing with an upset toddler. In my case, I do the same thing with my horses.

Anyway, I hope you give therapy time to help. Yes, it's "unfair" that you are working on your issues when his issues impact you and the children, but you are the only one you have full control over, so it makes sense that being able to change your behavior will change the dynamic in your relationship.

   
Cat

@Catfamiliar,
Thank you for sharing your experience living with someone who has both, BPD and np, what I see in people in plain sight takes years and unfortunate exploitation of him to see it, it’s a long process of me sitting there and watching him soak all the attention and praise only to be taken advantage of. Even then, disappointed he doesn’t admit that he was wrong.
With limited access to funds and resources I wish I could spend more time working on our issues. Instead all I can manage is seek help for myself. I couldn’t take another morning full of misery and hurt feelings, so I forced myself to run some errands with my d14

[babyducks]

I couldn’t take another morning full of misery and hurt feelings, so I forced myself to run some errands with my d14

 

Good decision Snowglobe.     Every time you detach a little tiny bit from the hurt feelings, you make room for other feelings to come in.

[snowglobe]

It was an interesting experience which I’m not able to interpret, so if you have any ideas, please, throw them my way. While running the errands, I realized that the fact that we have missed a house party/bday celebration that our mutual acquaintance through on Saturday, didn’t look good on me. We’ve missed it because he 1.wanted to go to church, 2. Finds them dull and uninteresting (there is no drama there, nor much flattery). I bought her a gift card and swang by her house to drop it off. The whole thing took maybe 40-50 min, during which my d14 chose to stay in the car waiting for me. When I came back she told me that grandma (no surprise there, my mom is noisy) and dad! Called and wanted to know where we were. She told the truth. As I started to drive home uBPDh called d14’s cell asking where we are, she repeated and said we were going home. He sounded annoyed, asked why I wasted 2 hrs there (his time always runs at the speed of Light), to which I gave him the time and the way my events unfolded. He replied “I don’t believe you l” and hung up before we could interject. With a puzzled look on her face, d14 asked me “how come dad always calls you annoyed when/if you are out and starts repremending you. It’s as if he thinks your life is so exciting”. When I later came home, and started to repeat my story, he said “I know how long and where you stayed”, he tracks my where abouts on phone finder that shares the location on all our phones. It’s a trust and security level for him, it doesn’t annoy me anymore, nor do I pay much attention. If he needs to check my boring life in order to reassure himself that I’m not cheating (that is what underlying fear I believe is), or just see that I’m running between grocery store and kids extracurricular, so be it. It’s also very clear to me that any time spent away from him, is the time he considers waisted and wants to “punish me” for that. This thought bothers me. If he wants exclusive rights on my time and attention, he ought to be nice to me.
@babyducks and @formflier, if you looked at a bigger picture, how can I use this knowledge for behaviour modification?

[formflier]

 
@babyducks and @formflier, if you looked at a bigger picture, how can I use this knowledge for behaviour modification?

Ugg... .

"Oh my goodness... .I don't consider my time a waste.  I busy at the moment, perhaps we can talk more later."  (nothing further... .while you are with your daughter)

I would find a friend or someone that understands your phone and (at some point) take back your privacy.  This was a big deal in my r/s (my wife access to my personal and professional communications)... .so I would suggest you discuss this with your T before taking action.

Once you take it back... .don't cave in.  So it's important you are ready.

Last:  You felt the need to justify yourself to your hubby because?  (explain the timeline)

Note:  This kind of thing can be handled positively and proactively (sometimes) as you leave or before you leave.  Too soothe their abandonment fears.

FF

[snowglobe]

Ugg... .

"Oh my goodness... .I don't consider my time a waste.  I busy at the moment, perhaps we can talk more later."  (nothing further... .while you are with your daughter)

I would find a friend or someone that understands your phone and (at some point) take back your privacy.  This was a big deal in my r/s (my wife access to my personal and professional communications)... .so I would suggest you discuss this with your T before taking action.

Once you take it back... .don't cave in.  So it's important you are ready.

Last:  You felt the need to justify yourself to your hubby because?  (explain the timeline)

Note:  This kind of thing can be handled positively and proactively (sometimes) as you leave or before you leave.  Too soothe their abandonment fears.

FF

I felt that I needed to justify my whereabouts because our relationships are in a very bad place emotionally and factually. I don’t want to Aggravate his fears furthermore, so he doesn’t come swinging at me with the full force that he is capable of. For now it’s a steady 5 out of 10 rejection mostly, some belittling and banal disregard for my feelings. If I leave and go somewhere, such as a friend, my elderly grandma, shopping mall, pretty much anywhere it creates abandonment and resentment, because it the “time you could have spent with me” he creates an emotionally toxic environment not just for me, but also for the children. 

[formflier]

I felt that I needed to justify my whereabouts because our relationships are in a very bad place emotionally and factually. I don’t want to Aggravate his fears furthermore, so he doesn’t come swinging at me with the full force that he is capable of.  

What do we teach about JADE?

What do we teach about making decisions out of fear?

The real focus should be answering his "bellicose" statement (although honestly it wasn't that bad... comparatively) that you were wasting your time.  

Listen... there was nothing wrong with what you were doing, yet that is what YOU kept the focus on.  There WAS something wrong with his insults, yet those were "passed over" or not dealt with in any way.

Back up... .look at big picture.

He insults you and you justify yourself and try to "prove" that you shouldn't have been insulted.

I suspect that pattern has been there for a while.

Wouldn't it be healthier for you and a better expression of your values... ."I can't continue a conversation while insults are between us.  Perhaps we can talk kindly after I get home."

And think about the lessons you would have "taught" your daughter had she heard that from you!

FF

[snowglobe]

@formflier, what do we teach about making decisions out of fear?
90% of my decisions are fast and out of fear.

[formflier]

@formflier, what do we teach about making decisions out of fear?
90% of my decisions are fast and out of fear.

Anytime you are making decisions out of FOG  "Fear Obligation Guilt" it is very likely that decision is not helping or making healthier a relationship.

When you see things on this board about "getting out of the FOG"... that is what is being talked about.

Making decisions so something "won't" happen is usually not helpful, because you are usually trying to control someone else.  Making a decision about what you will do is usually helpful, especially if you "think it through" and make a decision based on your values (not your fears)... .and you have the resolve to let the rest of the world "deal with your decisions".

   

FF

[Enabler]

Small interlude - - - - the iphone app he most likely uses to track you is 'Find IPhone' (looks like a radar, green circle white background. All you have to do is go into the app and click sign out in the top right. I wouldn't recommend signing in and out of this, but sign out and leave it at that. Or, better still get your own Itunes account. 'Find Iphone' is perfect for just that and enables you to wipe/disable your phone remotely if lost.

My guess is you already know this and don't do it out of fear of his reaction though.

[snowglobe]

Small interlude - - - - the iphone app he most likely uses to track you is 'Find IPhone' (looks like a radar, green circle white background. All you have to do is go into the app and click sign out in the top right. I wouldn't recommend signing in and out of this, but sign out and leave it at that. Or, better still get your own Itunes account. 'Find Iphone' is perfect for just that and enables you to wipe/disable your phone remotely if lost.

My guess is you already know this and don't do it out of fear of his reaction though.
Absolutely correct, I know that gps is in maps, phone finder and car app, if one fails, he has other two to assist him. In truth, if a person is going to these lengths to know my whereabouts all times, I can see the proportion of his anxiety and fear. It doesn’t actually stop me from going wherever I need to go, so in terms of it being an issue- sure it’s not healthy. We have so many greater problems to deal with, that my tracking is a small particle comparing to the rest of the mess. Using humour, I will never go missing or risk of being kidnaped, Big brother is constantly watching. I’m rereading “stop the bleeding part”, seems that “I’ll deal with this later” backfired and I have a full blown out episode on my hands. I also lacked the internal motivation to be the one to stop the bleeding, instead waiting for him to snap out of it. Big mistake

[formflier]

Lean on your T to figure out the best time to have the GPS discussion.

I am much more interested in him stopping insulting you... .than I am stopping him from "watching" you drive around town.

So... .perhaps something to work with T on is some roleplay on offering a compromise.

Trust him to take it or not. 

"You know babe... .I feel hurt when you watch me drive around town... .yet still insult me and accuse me.  I want you to feel confident our relationship and I want to free from the effects of insults and accusations.  I hope we can come together and figure out a way to do this that works for both of us."

FF

[snowglobe]

Lean on your T to figure out the best time to have the GPS discussion.

I am much more interested in him stopping insulting you... .than I am stopping him from "watching" you drive around town.

So... .perhaps something to work with T on is some roleplay on offering a compromise.

Trust him to take it or not. 

"You know babe... .I feel hurt when you watch me drive around town... .yet still insult me and accuse me.  I want you to feel confident our relationship and I want to free from the effects of insults and accusations.  I hope we can come together and figure out a way to do this that works for both of us."

FF

My T sessions are via Skype, she specializes in high conflict resolutions. I was able to identify my biggest triggers and weaknesses while preparing for the session. Fear of abandonment constantly reinforced by - if you don’t do/act/think the way I want you to, I will leave you, divorce you, leave you broken and impoverished. Inability to simultaneously “do good for him” and myself. Whenever I do me, he flips out and does something to sabotage it so I attend to his needs, kids are his strongest and post potent weapon. Impulsive priority/value/morals and believe shift (doing blow one week, seeking the “right church” the other week. Low self esteem on my part, inability to see any value, strength, goodness in myself, thus making it a very scary thought of being alone. Son’s disability, need for constant treatment, daughter’s professional career, also large amounts of subsidy needed to continue. Today I will work on Fear and Trust. I want to trust that there is goodness and love, and compassion left in me to share with those that are close and dear to me. I want to trust that there is a person who needs just the qualities and values that I posses without robbing me of my dignity. I trust that my children will be ok, somehow, and that they will find it in their hearts to forgive me for not fighting for our family. I want to trust that the police and the court system will protect me When he beggin to really turn on the heat. I want to trust that support groups, mental health professionals, friends will support me in a quest of become mentally stable. I pray and hope that members of this forum will provide me with tools and emotional support to pull through. I will trust my body to do what it’s supposed to do to pull me through each day at a time

[formflier]

While we certainly can't predict the future... .I would also discuss with your T what "most" high conflict personalities do... when they try to carry out a threat.

"Most" will say something like "I'm leaving you for a year... .during that year you will fix yourself" (paraphrase from another thread)

What actually happened was the wife took the kid, left for a night or two... and then returned "like nothing ever happened" a couple days later.

The "bluff" was called.

In this instance the member stayed calm... expressed sadness and clarity of not agreeing... .but acknowledged that everyone makes their own decisions.

So... yes... .trust in the court system is important, but understand that the likelihood of it getting to that is not nearly what you "fear" it is.

Most threats are "hot air" when the bluff is called. 

Note:  Knowing you as I do, I would suggest you need practice and tools before you start "calling bluffs".

FF

[babyducks]

If a person is going to these lengths to know my whereabouts at all times I can see the levels of his fear and anxiety.

Snowglobe,

You are not responsible for his emotions.

Not at any level.    Not in any way.

You are not responsible for creating his anxiety.    You are not responsible for fixing his anxiety.  You are a separate person from your husband.  It's his business to take care of himself.

I'm going to repeat what was said earlier.

Stop care taking the borderline.

When he called to ask where you were,  he already knew.    Your mother had told him.    D14 had told him.   The GPS had told him.    You told him.    Twice.   

The conversation wasn't about where you were.  It was something else.  And even D14 could tell something was wacky about the last phone call.

I said stop following him off the cliff when he works a conversation to the edge.

FF said stop poking around in the wound.

I would suggest you slow down your response.

"I'm going to think about this "

"Let me get back to you "

"Wow that's an idea I've never thought about"

Slow things down.

[snowglobe]

Dear @babyducks and @formflier
I want to thank you for your support and ongoing coaching. It’s certainly helps me to separate myself from BPD reality. Today during the session with T few things bubbled up to the surface, which I want to share and help to analyze for next session:
1. Based on my shared experience with the therapist she believes that he is constantly relieving his childhood traumatic experience and locks both of us in a triangle. To precise- he shared with me witnessing his father physically abusing his mother on occasion, not frequent enough to be “domestic violence” ( in his own words), but a few enough to remember him throwing himself at dad, trying to protect mom from being pushed, showed and slapped around. He too, got a frequent beating from his dad. I personally witnessed regular character association of his mother (words like shut the f. Up, you are stupid, I need to find a young replacement) are common things to throw at the family gathering. I wonder whAt happens behind the close door... .being raised in the environment like that with disrespect, poor impulse control, or complete absence of such, created a familiar dysfunction that he doesn’t completely satisfy in our relationships. Thus, the triangle works as such-> he dysregulates based on outside trigger-> he becomes abusive toward me (punishing)-> he ampts up the volume when I hold my own, or don’t react-> I finally break down, he sees me as victim (identifies with his mom) feels a compulsive need to protect me and make it better-> becomes a rescuer-> feels guilty-> becomes a victim- > depression and self destructive thoughts-> I become the rescuer and we go back to baseline... .wow... .totally makes sense. From my threads here, does it pain the same picture?
He solution is to “act as if” broken down already, more sympathetic response the better, physical showing of emotions - tearing up, speeds up the cycle. If he gets no reaction from me, he moves on to d14 which is far worse.
There isn’t any short term fix, based on totalitarian approach to finances and my physical location he won’t make the exit easy. Any change of behaviour outside of what has been conditioned will be seen as a threat and controlling will amplify. He suggestion, is don’t put your finger on a trigger until you are ready.
Childhood fear that his mom will abandon him, because of what his dad was doing is relived again and again. She encourages me to take small steps of independence, slowly and not drastically, in order to get him used to a change. Job search needs to be very conspicuous, notified only upon confirmation. She sees him trying to sabotage any instance of me trying to regain my separate identity (after I told her about him calling me during my exam, because he was on a bad mood, that I didn’t massage his feet in the morning or the fact that he didn’t bring s10 to school in resentment. Police called me because he wasn’t picking up the phone, and finally they came knocking on the door to make sure that s10 was well and find out the reason why he didn’t make it to school? UBPDh claimed that it was all my fault that he couldn’t find the snow pants. Thus, all the while I was trying to write the exam I had him, school and police trying to call me). She is suggesting to maintain my safety boundary, while providing him with reactions he craves, for now. As a short term strategy it will keep me safe, and children relatively unharmed. Long term, she again expressed that she fears for my safety during the exit. With his compulsions of “punishing me” ( expressed this morning, “hurting me”, getting ready for “mental torture”, all progressive signs of possible physical danger.

[formflier]

  Any change of behaviour outside of what has been conditioned will be seen as a threat and controlling will amplify. He suggestion, is don’t put your finger on a trigger until you are ready.

  She encourages me to take small steps of independence, slowly and not drastically, in order to get him used to a change.

 

This seems very wise!

I would add... .and ask you to confirm with your T my next advice.

Picking one thing every so often to change is likely best.  Think it through ahead of time, then once you change it... .don't go back.  If he threatens and gets what he wants... .that will embolden him.

Part of "conditioning him" is to get him used to you "meaning business" when you do things.  Right now... he knows he can roll you.

Second thing:  Did you witness his Mom being talked to this way... .or where YOU being talked to this way?

FF

[snowglobe]

This seems very wise!

I would add... .and ask you to confirm with your T my next advice.

Picking one thing every so often to change is likely best.  Think it through ahead of time, then once you change it... .don't go back.  If he threatens and gets what he wants... .that will embolden him.

Part of "conditioning him" is to get him used to you "meaning business" when you do things.  Right now... he knows he can roll you.

Second thing:  Did you witness his Mom being talked to this way... .or where YOU being talked to this way?

FF

I’m trying to think of something I want to begin with, something very saddle, so it won’t be the “new me” moment.
I have personally witnessed emotional abuse, disrespect, talked down to, called names and made rude and ignorant joke (dad to mom e.g. you are so stupid, useless and incapable of doing anything, even driving a car, the whole table laughs, sons and father included) brother speaks to his wife in the same way (e.g. wife- where are you going? Husband- go pick up some chicks. In actuality going boating or fishing or other manly things). Because this practice didn’t stick in our relationships as a regular, other then “I’m gonna go get myself an 18 yo piece of meat” he brings this chaos into our relationships when he dysregulates

[babyducks]

a couple of thoughts Snowglobe,

first,  wow that's a lot to process.    that's a huge amount of information and some radical shifts in thinking.  I wouldn't blame you if you are a little dizzy from it all.   I'm a little dizzy and I am just reading it.   you've been doing a lot of hard work and wrestling with loaded topics.   Give yourself time to absorb all this.   Think things through carefully.    You've got a lot going on and it's possible that it will take a while to really get these ideas cemented in place.

second,  everyone here has something to offer, the person writing their second post and people who have been here longer.    it would be great to get more input in your threads because the more eyes,  the more we all can learn.

There isn’t any short term fix,... ./... /... .She encourages me to take small steps of independence, slowly and not drastically,

Third, I think this sounds smart to me.    No, there isn't any short term fixes.    This is going to take a while,   and it is going to take small steps of independence as you feel comfortable making them.

  Long term, she again expressed that she fears for my safety during the exit. With his compulsions of “punishing me” ( expressed this morning, “hurting me”, getting ready for “mental torture”, all progressive signs of possible physical danger.

Fourth,  I would be remiss if I didn't mention safety.   bpdfamily is very serious about safety.   every thread has an emergency button and a red safety link in it somewhere.    Safety for your family is number one.    When I was first here I was encouraged to think about safety.   I found I had a lot of incorrect information and half facts.     

Last, for now,  I am going to suggest your break out some of these very large topics and start a new thread with just one topic in it.    It may be safety,   it may be threats and verbal abuse,  it may be protecting the children from dysregulation,  whatever you want.   I would really suggest that you stay with just that one topic,   work your way through it,  glean all the information you can, before you move into the next topic.

'ducks