Do we Non's have Nice Guy/ Nice Gal syndrome?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I was listening to a podcast with a relationship coach speaking with the author, Dr. Glover, of "NO more Mr. Nice Guy".   I had been resistant to going in his direction because i had heard that it had to do with the 12 step model and co-dependency model.  I'm not completely on board with that model for several reasons which would probably take to long to explain in a post.

However, he said that all "nice guys" (and it applies to "nice gals" too) have three distinct traits or what he calls "covert contracts":

1. if we are good to people; then they will be good back.
2. if i meet everybody elses needs  then my needs will be met or they will want to meet my needs.
3.  If i do everything "right" or the "right way" or do the "right thing" then my life will go smoothly.

So as i heard him say this it struck a nerve for something that i have been talking about in my recovery for awhile.  And that is that i believe that I do the opposite of my borderline/npd counterparts.  If they project their fears and abandonment onto me- I project my positive beliefs about the world onto them.
So in essence i can see how I was or have been projecting those three "covert contracts" onto my partners. 

So the question is where do those of us who positively project draw the line in doing so?

Also i'm wondering how many of us on this board start out with one of those three covert contracts or assumptions of people only to be duped by our BPD/npd partners?

I have known for awhile that i did not want to be like the "me, me, me" people that i was exposed to in my early childhood years and therefore i rebelled against being selfish or looking to get my needs met first.  It became natural to put others in a place of importance and to value them.  I suppose from what Dr. Glover indicates this could be some kind of covert contract "if i treat you good then you'll treat me good." 

I might order his book just to hear the rest of the story.  On the podcast he said that it doesn't mean that we go into what he calls, "lower consciousness male or female"  those are the types the personality disordered folks tend to reflect. 

I don't know (looking back) what things exactly i would have done to come from a different perspective as far as not being attracted to or attracting a personality disordered person.  I might have had a sense of neediness about being in relationship because i had already lost a family in my divorce and thought i could gain another one with my last partner?  of course i'm consciously evaluating what my sub conscious programming might have been searching for.  So his whole premise is that we fill our own bucket and needs first and not look for anyone else to meet those needs.  The challenge that i have (and again i haven't read the book yet) is that it seems like being in a relationship of any kind romantically we naturally have needs (love/sex/ partnership/activity partner etc).    So if we could meet all of our needs alone; why would we need to have a partner to begin with? 

Btw, he says that "nice guys" and "nice gals"  usually are so worried about pleasing people that they don't tell their partner what they really think and what they really feel because they are afraid of not pleasing them or hurting their feelings.  I think that for me this isn't true until you run into some person who starts doing the BPD traits and then you start walking on eggshells.  But in my last relationship i didn't hold back my feelings and wasn't afraid of conflict until we split up the first time. I had told her that what i didn't like and that perhaps we weren't compatible in relationship (that was the wrong thing to say- i know now) but i was speaking my truth at least.  I felt that way because she had been being passive aggressive with me and i was trying to break up.   But then she went away and i realized how in love with her i was despite her flaws and i missed her so much.  I guess according to Dr. Glover i became "needy".  I feel into the trap of thinking that only she could meet my needs.  I realized that i might not be able to find someone who i was so physically compatible with and sexually compatible with and that maybe i just "needed" to give her a chance to work on herself some more. That's when all my justifications kicked in about why i think it could work out between us even though my original intuition was probably correct.  I was probably realizing that she was another person that was not able to self regulate and I needed to pull away from that.
Instead what wound up happening is that she turned the tables on me and made it seem like she was the one who was breaking up or away from me and then i took on a different role of "wondering why she was leaving me when I was the good one, when i treated her with respect etc (here's those 3 covert contracts now coming into play).  I managed to have pretty good boundaries until the last week that i saw her.  I realize now that in her own "trying to not look like the bad girl" she was being unkind and unloving to me.  Instead of being real she kept me hanging on while all along she knew that she could not commit to me because of fear that i didn't think that we were compatible and that i might leave or abandon her.  So she abandoned me.  It all makes perfect sense now.  I'm just sad that we can't be friends but I also realize "I don't need her as a friend"  and that "needing her" would just set up a scenario to let her keep treating me like a doormat because she is in her lower female consciousness just like guys who abuse are in their lower male consciousness. 

So i'm just wondering what you all think about this and if any of you relate to being the "nice guy" or "nice gal" and that is why we meet these people and or attract them or are attracted to them in our lives.

[truthbeknown]

I was listening to a podcast with a relationship coach speaking with the author, Dr. Glover, of "NO more Mr. Nice Guy".   I had been resistant to going in his direction because i had heard that it had to do with the 12 step model and co-dependency model.  I'm not completely on board with that model for several reasons which would probably take to long to explain in a post.

However, he said that all "nice guys" (and it applies to "nice gals" too) have three distinct traits or what he calls "covert contracts":

1. if we are good to people; then they will be good back.
2. if i meet everybody elses needs  then my needs will be met or they will want to meet my needs.
3.  If i do everything "right" or the "right way" or do the "right thing" then my life will go smoothly.

So as i heard him say this it struck a nerve for something that i have been talking about in my recovery for awhile.  And that is that i believe that I do the opposite of my borderline/npd counterparts.  If they project their fears and abandonment onto me- I project my positive beliefs about the world onto them.
So in essence i can see how I was or have been projecting those three "covert contracts" onto my partners. 

So the question is where do those of us who positively project draw the line in doing so?

Also i'm wondering how many of us on this board start out with one of those three covert contracts or assumptions of people only to be duped by our BPD/npd partners?

I have known for awhile that i did not want to be like the "me, me, me" people that i was exposed to in my early childhood years and therefore i rebelled against being selfish or looking to get my needs met first.  It became natural to put others in a place of importance and to value them.  I suppose from what Dr. Glover indicates this could be some kind of covert contract "if i treat you good then you'll treat me good." 

I might order his book just to hear the rest of the story.  On the podcast he said that it doesn't mean that we go into what he calls, "lower consciousness male or female"  those are the types the personality disordered folks tend to reflect. 

I don't know (looking back) what things exactly i would have done to come from a different perspective as far as not being attracted to or attracting a personality disordered person.  I might have had a sense of neediness about being in relationship because i had already lost a family in my divorce and thought i could gain another one with my last partner?  of course i'm consciously evaluating what my sub conscious programming might have been searching for.  So his whole premise is that we fill our own bucket and needs first and not look for anyone else to meet those needs.  The challenge that i have (and again i haven't read the book yet) is that it seems like being in a relationship of any kind romantically we naturally have needs (love/sex/ partnership/activity partner etc).    So if we could meet all of our needs alone; why would we need to have a partner to begin with? 

Btw, he says that "nice guys" and "nice gals"  usually are so worried about pleasing people that they don't tell their partner what they really think and what they really feel because they are afraid of not pleasing them or hurting their feelings.  I think that for me this isn't true until you run into some person who starts doing the BPD traits and then you start walking on eggshells.  But in my last relationship i didn't hold back my feelings and wasn't afraid of conflict until we split up the first time. I had told her that what i didn't like and that perhaps we weren't compatible in relationship (that was the wrong thing to say- i know now) but i was speaking my truth at least.  I felt that way because she had been being passive aggressive with me and i was trying to break up.   But then she went away and i realized how in love with her i was despite her flaws and i missed her so much.  I guess according to Dr. Glover i became "needy".  I feel into the trap of thinking that only she could meet my needs.  I realized that i might not be able to find someone who i was so physically compatible with and sexually compatible with and that maybe i just "needed" to give her a chance to work on herself some more. That's when all my justifications kicked in about why i think it could work out between us even though my original intuition was probably correct.  I was probably realizing that she was another person that was not able to self regulate and I needed to pull away from that.
Instead what wound up happening is that she turned the tables on me and made it seem like she was the one who was breaking up or away from me and then i took on a different role of "wondering why she was leaving me when I was the good one, when i treated her with respect etc (here's those 3 covert contracts now coming into play).  I managed to have pretty good boundaries until the last week that i saw her.  I realize now that in her own "trying to not look like the bad girl" she was being unkind and unloving to me.  Instead of being real she kept me hanging on while all along she knew that she could not commit to me because of fear that i didn't think that we were compatible and that i might leave or abandon her.  So she abandoned me.  It all makes perfect sense now.  I'm just sad that we can't be friends but I also realize "I don't need her as a friend"  and that "needing her" would just set up a scenario to let her keep treating me like a doormat because she is in her lower female consciousness just like guys who abuse are in their lower male consciousness. 

So i'm just wondering what you all think about this and if any of you relate to being the "nice guy" or "nice gal" and that is why we meet these people and or attract them or are attracted to them in our lives.

[gotbushels]

Hi truthbeknown   

So the question is where do those of us who positively project draw the line in doing so?

To clarify, are you defining positive belief projection as a projection of a belief that you want to be true in your relationships?

Also i'm wondering how many of us on this board start out with one of those three covert contracts or assumptions of people only to be duped by our BPD/npd partners?

It's quite some time ago--but I think I would have brought some form of this to the pwBPD relationship I was in:

1. if we are good to people; then they will be good back.

While I do think I brought this, I don't think it's about being 'duped' by a partner. Many of us were getting something from the relationship--consciously or unconsciously.

To embellish a bit more on this #1 you brought up above, I think it's related to reciprocity. There's an idea that pwBPDs wouldn't set out to circumvent the principle of reciprocity--it's that they can't give it. One way to look at this is that out of wisemind, it's possible to not operate reciprocally. So a pwBPD isn't duping someone by not being reciprocal like this. Another way is that you can only give what you've been given. If the pwBPD didn't learn what a reciprocal relationship looks like, how can she bring it? I haven't even brought up the identity disturbance issue. I think the pwBPD may not be out to con you but that this person didn't get the development to bring their 'consideration' for the 'contracts'.

I'm not defending the pwBPDs--yes a malicious person may exist--I'm saying that a given pwBPD may act this way as a product of their construct, not as a conscious deception.

Interesting discussion. 

[Cromwell]

Hi truthbeknown

I do fit into the nice guy category, but I never had reason not to be, it worked in all my relationships up until this point where it became a weakness and vulnerability.

my BPDx regarded "nice guy" as synomynous with "stupid guy" or someone she could walk over and take advantage of.

Too bad for her because when I caught on to it, I proved her wrong (unforgivably) as I knew her weak points as much as she did mine, only that I couldnt grasp any reason why there would be a need to hurt your partner. I did educate her that there is a "bad side" to every "nice guy" as well and unfortunatly when I beat up the guy she cheated on with me, she was delighted and came racing back. I did the wrong thing, it was more out of complete state of confusion and emotional distress that she caused but I didnt have the rationale to deal with beyond going to primal level. Its important to note that with all the mirroring, I had assumed I had a "nice girl" at the same time.

In the end I discovered that not so much a good girl or bad girl as much as a very "sad girl".  

[once removed]

to me, theres a big difference in a "nice guy" and a nice guy.

being a nice guy or girl is a desirable and attractive quality to both sexes. it does not preclude having strong values and boundaries, and therefore i would not equate it with an ability or willingness to be walked on or taken advantage of, but quite the contrary.

and then there is the sort of stereotype (neutral sense of the word) or "syndrome" that the author refers to. there is variation of course, but its real. at the heart of it, i think, is a difficulty seeing oneself accurately, and reading others. a lot of us have that difficulty regardless.

what do most have in common?

-wearing their heart on their sleeve (clinginess, neediness, all of those things included)
-over expressing emotions
-prone to idealizing others and prone to giving too much weight to the idealization from others
-prone to woundedness when that idealization is withdrawn
-low self esteem, low confidence, over compensation for this with certain behaviors and need to be needed
-prone to enmeshed relationships

generally, it ticks off a lot of the boxes of codependency.

and its certainly a road i went down myself. i over pursued. i wore my heart on my sleeve. i was rejected at every turn, and i couldnt understand why. my friends gave me some good advice when i was a freshman in high school (that the stuff above is a turn off), something clicked, and i started to do better, but once i got into relationships, i was still consumed with how my partner felt or didnt feel about me and very prone to woundedness, obsession, over pursuing, etc.

fact is i just didnt have a good read on the opposite sex or how i was coming off, and i really didnt know very much about healthy relationships.

So the question is where do those of us who positively project draw the line in doing so?

the short of it is that our partners are not our projections, but independent people. we all do this to some extent, but we start to draw the line by actively, mindfully realizing this. we further draw the line in realizing the same about ourselves, that we are independent people, and living authentically. this all has to do with the differentiation of self: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=275714.msg12612781#msg12612781

6. Being able to declare clearly what I need and requesting help from others without imposing my needs upon them.

7. Being able to understand what needs I can and cannot meet in my own life and in the lives of others.

8. Understanding that I am called to be distinct (separate) from others, without being distant from others.

9. Understanding that I am responsible to others but not responsible for others .

So his whole premise is that we fill our own bucket and needs first and not look for anyone else to meet those needs.  The challenge that i have (and again i haven't read the book yet) is that it seems like being in a relationship of any kind romantically we naturally have needs (love/sex/ partnership/activity partner etc).    So if we could meet all of our needs alone; why would we need to have a partner to begin with?  

we all have a need for closeness with others. thats not something that we can fulfill by ourselves, but it is a need we are responsible for fulfilling, as opposed to it being someone elses responsibility. i think the difference that you and the author are speaking to, is part of the differentiation of self, "understanding that i am responsible to but not for others". the differences between independence and interdependence.

i have not read the book, but from what i gather, it sounds pretty good/helpful. i wouldnt stop there. id keep reading about the concept of differentiation, boundaries (an important step in my shift was reading the book by cloud and townsend), attachment styles, and if youre looking for a book about healthy masculinity, "to be a man" by robert augustus masters is a good one to add.

[zachira]

I am currently struggling with the nice gal syndrome. I am now realizing that most of my family members were great actors on the community stage, though not actually nice people at home. I now realize that I can be attracted to people who are not what they appear to be, and I idealize them though they have done nothing to deserve it. I think the key to overcoming being codependent is to know ourselves better, accepting our most uncomfortable feelings, and seeing people for who they really are than what we would like them to be.