exH Wants to Meet My BF Before He Spends Time With Our Daughter

[coleen83]

Hi BPD Family! Its been years since I have been on here. Since my last time on- I split from my ex about 3 years ago. My daughter wasn't even two at the time. Anyways for the last 3 years I have kept myself from dating (anything serious or having people know about it) for fear of my ex. There was one time I dated someone probably 2.5 years ago and my ex made it so terrible for me I never wanted to embark on it again. I have been "keeping the peace" for so long- keeping him happy- doing what he wants- while not even in a relationship with him! I have always been scared of what he will do to me, or my daughter. We have 50/50 custody btw. Fast forward to a month ago when I told him I was seeing someone and of course this has started the fire. I am seeing his other side come out now because I am not letting him control me. I have been seeing my bf for 2 years (with only a few people knowing) and I want him to be in my life and my daughters. I know however that my ex is going to make this hell for me. He does NOT want anyone around her besides him and does not want me being with anyone else- even know he says he doesnt care who I am with. He's started using my daughter to try and control me again. My question revolves around this. Years ago he told me he wants to meet the man before he spends ANY time with my daughter. I out of fear agreed so long ago but now I am like wait! Thats just control. I am trying to figure out how to navigate this. I want to be respectful of him and being her father but at the same time I don't want to let him control me. I KNOW if my boyfriend spends any time with her before he meets him- he will flip and create major issues (although what he doesnt know is that they have spend a few times together). Nothing in our court docs says he has to meet the person etc- I was just going to do it to be nice and because I would appreciate the same thing when he dates someone seriously. However I do not think this has to be BEFORE my bf spends time with my daughter. How do I navigate this? I have people telling me yes let them meet and others who know my EX say no. I want to move on with my life but am so scared of what he will do- what will happen- what fire storms will come my way. HELP! Do I say- hey my bf is going to be around our daughter and thats it? or what? I hate that he still has so much control over me and evokes fear!

[Turkish]

Any step parents here who can provide wisdom?

I think this request isn't all that abnormal... .if your exH wasn't the controlling BPD type. You know him, and you know your BF. What does your boyfriend think? 2 years certainly qualifies as a long term r/s, certainly safe to bring him into our daughter's orbit. Do you fear a confrontation or blow-up, even in a public place?

You could kick the can down the road if you end up marrying or co-habitating with your boyfriend and just tell him then. Stand firm by the custody stipulation (which says nothing, as you said). What kinds of problems do you think your exH would cause? Is he a "manly" man or a tough guy? What does your BF say? Is he the confidant type (but not prone to getting into a possible scuffle), even being warned how your exH is?

[Sunfl0wer]

Um, I’m sure I am out of my league here and other members of this board will chime in... .

However, I recall from my r/s with ex(NPD traits) who had BPDexW... .

He had stuff in the Parenting plan I believe... .
I think it said you needed to be dating for six months the new partner before introductions.
However, if I recall correctly this was an individual thing that the lawyers put into the plan... .i believe it was not an item out of the template for parenting plan but one we put in.

So my best uneducated guess is that it is probably wise to check the language of your current parenting plan if you have one.

If you do not have one and it is not in writing for you in any manner
Then do not bother letting him meet your new man
It is none of his business and he is simply being emotionally abusive
None of his business and sharing wont satiate his pallate, he will escalate.
Idk... .like i said... .im outta my element tho so remeber that too

[coleen83]

My BF is completely fine with meeting him and won't be phased by him. He is not the type to get his feathers ruffled by him or much else. I was thinking about a public place yes. I think my exH will act like a typical jealous ex but he won't become physical. He will probably say some things about me that he hopes will make my BF mad- to get the reaction.

It isn't so much the meeting that makes me nervous its the "if I don't do things exactly how he likes" I don't know what he might do. I would like to be able to have my daughter around my BF and eventually have the exH and BF meeting but I dont think it has to be right this sec. I feel like thats his way to control things. But then if I don't do it his way then what? He will make a BIG deal out the fact we agreed to this years ago.

I could let the exH know- hey my BF is going to be around her and if you would like to meet him- we can set that up sometime. Yay or nay? I think I still live in this fear since he has my daughter half the time and I just know how manipulative he is, scary and evil really.

And I looked over things and there is nothing that states info about meeting the new significant other.

[Turkish]

How well bonded is she to your BF? I like what you said you might say.  It's polite but neutral.  My ex told me that she'd want to run a background check on anyone I brought around the kids.

[Panda39]

I have never met my SO's uBPDxw and have no desire to do so. (We've been at some of the kids functions but don't interact).  

Clearly your ex is triggered.   You might want to let your ex absorb the information for a little while.  How much does your boyfriend understand about BPD and your ex? Can you prepare him for the types of behaviors he might see?  You also are under no obligation to introduce them if there is nothing in your court order.

My SO's ex doesn't know me, doesn't know much about me so really has no information and I like it that way... .no information no ammunition.  I also made sure everyone at work was aware of her in case she tried to pull something shady.

If your boyfriend is comfortable and you feel comfortable (not obligated) about the 2 meeting then I would definitely do it at a public place... .starbucks or something where you have no reason to stay for a long time... .starbucks by the police station?

Panda39

[ForeverDad]

It is a tightrope to walk between being appeasing versus holding to boundaries.  There's no strict answer one way or the other but you are certainly right, he does come off as controlling.  A reasonable ex would understand that either you or he would eventually move on to subsequent adult relationships.  Yes, there would be concern, but demands and emotional terrorizing, no.  You know what he's already done once, why would he not do it again if you allow it?

No court will block either of you from having adult relationships.  And if BF is not a felon or some other sort of ne'er-do-well, the court would have No Concerns about him.  Yes, some have gotten clauses in their parenting orders to require the friendships last a few months before introducing them to the kids as your BF.  This reduces the likelihood of BF-of-the-Week.  But it is hardly enforceable, what would be the consequences?

Having BF for two years should eliminate that too-soon issue.  So that leaves ex's demand to meet BF first.  Feels like boundary pushing, as though he's in control and he decides.  I would be inclined to decline.  I'm sure my ex has had BFs but I've never met them.  If there is a meet then it has to be made clear that it does not include an Up-or-Down vote from ex.  If that is not done then he will probably feel enabled to do a repeat from a couple years ago.

Do you have a counselor, or your daughter?  What does the counselor say?  Maybe you'd feel safer with a meet in counselor's office?  That way potential confrontations ought to be limited and you'd have a professional there.

Lastly, if you feel terrorized, then something is wrong.  You can't live life controlled with demands and ultimatums.  And no, he can't change orders just because the kids know you have a BF.

Oh, how did I forget?  Does ex have a GF, SO or new wife?  Placing rules on you while himself doing what he wishes is not reasonable nor enforceable.

[worriedStepmom]

It's honestly not your ex's business who is around your daughter during your time of possession, provided those people aren't a danger to her.  You are under zero obligation to tell him that you have introduced a significant other to your daughter.  You're also under zero obligation to uphold verbal agreements made years ago during an extremely stressful time in your life when you were scared of your ex.

Are you sure your daughter hasn't mentioned hanging out with mom's friend? My non-BPDex remarried without telling me he was even seeing someone (twice; he didn't tell me about divorcing wife #2 either).  My daughter spilled the beans each time.  On the other hand, after I introduced my now-husband to my kids, I emailed my ex to give him my then-bf's name, as a courtesy.  The two men met a few months later at then 6-year-old's soccer game.  I don't think they've said more than about 5 words to each other in the six years since.

My husband's ex is uBPD.  He told her about me after I met their daughter.  My very existence is a trigger to uBPDex, and, honestly, her reactions to the idea of me having any opinion about her daughter have provided evidence that we plan to use to get custody modified.  Document your ex's crazy; it's possible he will act irrationally enough for you to justify a custody modification.

Both you and your BF should be prepared for your ex to try to alienate your daughter from your BF.  While H and I were engaged, SD-then-4 repeated all kinds of crazy that her mom said, including that if it was my fault that mommy and daddy weren't together.  They'd been divorced for two years when I met him, so, um, no.   I finally met uBPDex the week of our wedding, at a child exchange.  She managed to take offense to every single thing I said.  Interactions between uBPDex and myself have not improved in the 5 years H and I have been married.   

I'm glad that my SD hasn't been brainwashed by her mom - she sees that I am always honest with her, that I act respectfully towards her mother when we are in the same room.  I think it helps that I've always consistently asked SD for her own opinions/perceptions/wants and I validate like crazy.  She and I have a great relationship, even though mom tries her best to undermine it, both by talking to SD and by frequently texting my H things that SD supposedly says about me (which I know are not true).

Are you seeing a counselor?  It sounds like you need help with boundaries and coping strategies for dealing with his crazy, and for helping your daughter deal with it.

[livednlearned]

Welcome back

I'm glad you found someone and are feeling ready to introduce him to your D.  

It sounds like you suspect things won't go well if ex and BF meet, and you also want the strength to enforce boundaries. The question about whether to introduce them represents a boundary that feels potentially dangerous, and you are trying to weigh the pros and cons, especially when it comes to your daughter's safety and well-being.

Is that an accurate summary?

I have been "keeping the peace" for so long- keeping him happy- doing what he wants- while not even in a relationship with him!

In my experience, this only works for so long. And it only works in the short term. The long term stuff seems minimal and gets swept under the rug, but it nevertheless builds up and makes a mess that is twice as hard to fix when it can no longer be ignored.

If you want to make changes, I recommend working on small boundaries first helps before working up to bigger ones.

Whether you agree to introductions or not, you'll need some experience with setting boundaries. The more the better, so that you can stand your ground when your ex escalates. He has poor emotional regulation, so he will try to control the environment, including you, in order to regulate his emotions.

Once the men meet, it will be hard to put that genie back in the bottle. Your ex hasn't handled the news well.

And your new BF says he won't be phased by meeting your ex.

Men here can chime in, but in my experience, most guys wouldn't just up and say, "I'm scared about meeting this dude."  

Also, he may not know what he's getting into.

Your BF could also like the feeling that he can *protect* you from this guy who has been so mean to you.

All of these dynamics are probably familiar to each of you.

If you want to change the dynamics, you will have to change your actions. Starting with small tests in self-care that set you up for success may be the best way forward, so you can get some emotional practice under your belt before making big moves.

I found it empowering to start with small exercises, like saying no to an ex over something small. If your PTSD is really bad, you could start with a stranger. Then work up to an acquaintance. Then a coworker. Then a friend. Then a friendly family member. Then try saying no to your ex. Having a T during this can really accelerate the healing and skill-building, especially because sometimes things go wrong. It's good to have someone hold your hand when things go one step back before two steps forward.

If you let the two men meet without understanding the emotional and psychological work around boundaries, and it doesn't go well, it will reinforce old scripts and trigger PTSD behaviors, confirming that your old coping skills are all there is and nothing ever changes.

Except that things can and do change. There are many ways a dynamic can play out, but it's hard to see when we keep reaching for the same toolbox without filling it with new tools.

Your daughter has a difficult father and she will most likely learn whatever behaviors you model for her.

This is probably the hardest lesson we learn as co-parents when one parent has BPD. Every time we appease an ex, we train our kids to do the same, modeling behaviors that they will probably replay in their own adult relationships.

You deserve to have peace and quiet in your life.

I found it took a lot of uncomfortable changes to get there.

You can too  

[kells76]

Hi coleen83, nice to meet you!

Sounds like you're in a place where you want to do what's best for your daughter, and maybe that means having your BF and your ex meet up. Or maybe not.

Those can be tricky situations -- where either way could conceivably be what's best for the kids. I was there last weekend! Different situation, similar issue -- is it better for the kids to see me say No to their mom, or be flexible and supportive? I'm still not sure. Thinking hard about it, like you're doing, shows that you care. That's a good foundation.

worriedStepmom asked a good question:

Are you seeing a counselor?  It sounds like you need help with boundaries and coping strategies for dealing with his crazy, and for helping your daughter deal with it.

And some other members suggested meeting in a public place, where things might be less charged and more eyes on the meeting might lead to better behavior.

I wonder if you could combine those ideas -- if your daughter have a counselor, could the meetup be at the counselor's office? It could even be a way to validate your ex: "You sound concerned about who Daughter is around, and that makes sense! I think we both really care about who is in her life. How about meeting BF at Counselor's office -- if you wanted, you could stick around after we leave to make sure Counselor hears any concerns you have."

Again, I'm just meeting you so I'm not sure about all the dynamics of your situation. This might not be a good fit. But hopefully it can be food for thought or inspiration for a new idea that would better fit where you're at.

Hang in there,

kells76

[ForeverDad]

It's honestly not your ex's business who is around your daughter during your time of possession, provided those people aren't a danger to her.  You are under zero obligation to tell him that you have introduced a significant other to your daughter.  You're also under zero obligation to uphold verbal agreements made years ago during an extremely stressful time in your life when you were scared of your ex... .

I liked WorriedStepmom's response, much more up front than my circumspect post.  In essence, you make the decisions for your parenting time.  If they're reasonable, no court would find fault with them.  Yes, ex has demands and that is super stressful, but frankly if he's not triggered by one thing then it's another.  Yes, you don't want to needlessly trigger him but then you also can't have him controlling your parenting.  You can't completely appease him and, as LivednLearned wrote, not long term.  Can you set boundaries and not let him push them over?

Even if your decision doesn't quite match the order or prior 'promises', your judgement is appropriate when new situations arise.

To help put it in perspective, suppose your daughter goes to visit her neighbor or school friend?  What if she has sleepovers?  What if there are field trips?  Do you have to introduce Ex to all the parents?  The point is that if you approve then your approval stands.  On the other hand, if your BF is a raging alcoholic, a violent felon, a drug addict or drives drunk with kids, then there would be understandable concerns.

Something like this came up in the early days of my separation.  A huge concern to me wouldn't have been seen as actionable to the professionals around courts and parenting who deal with it every day.

I remember one day after I had filed for divorce and custody but my spouse hadn't responded yet.  The entire metropolitan area, 23 counties in all, were under Tornado Warnings for several hours.  We get a fair number of alerts but few actual warnings.  I called twice to find out where he was and whether he was safe.  No contact.  I tracked down my lawyer later and he said that if he took it to court, the judge would think I was crazy.  He said fewer kids die in tornadoes than in car accidents, so therefore son was in more danger every day on the road riding in a car than from a tornado.  THAT is what what us sane parents have to deal with.  Normal parental concern is sliced and diced and made unrecognizable.

However, how do you tell a person with BPD behaviors and perceptions to ":)eal with it!" without triggering too much?  On the other hand, once you are able to get Ex to accept your firm boundaries this sort of demanding and terrorizing may fade some.

[coleen83]

It is a tightrope to walk between being appeasing versus holding to boundaries.  There's no strict answer one way or the other but you are certainly right, he does come off as controlling.  A reasonable ex would understand that either you or he would eventually move on to subsequent adult relationships.  Yes, there would be concern, but demands and emotional terrorizing, no.  You know what he's already done once, why would he not do it again if you allow it?
Completely agree! Thank you for the reminder.

Oh, how did I forget?  Does ex have a GF, SO or new wife?  Placing rules on you while himself doing what he wishes is not reasonable nor enforceable. No he doesn't have or hasnt had a GF since we broke up 3.5 years ago. I think hes dated but not much

[coleen83]

Thank you everyone VERY much for the support and advice. I can't tell you how much it means to have an audience that understands without me having to explain all the details of a person with BPD.

Something came up last week, when he addressed me outside my daughters school after a parent teacher conference. One night a few weeks ago I had my mother spend the night with my daughter. A fun sleepover while I spent time with my BF. Well he figured it out and told me per our court agreement that anytime over 12 hours- the other parent has first right or refusal. So in that case he was upset because - well obviously because I was with a man that bothered him. But he said any time its over 12 hours I need to give him the opportunity to have her first. I thought this was ridiculous since this is my daughters grandmother! He yelled at me in front of her school and well it was embarrassing. He told me we could go to court if I didnt want to respect him and the orders. Since then he has barely spoken to me. He uses lack of communication to get to me since he knows I want to know how shes doing etc. When he does talk to me its very passive aggressive. But thats typical for where we are at- me not doing what he wants.

I am conflicted on what to do next because I am still afraid of my EX. I know people will ask why and logically I shouldn't be too afraid because he cant take my daughter from me and thats really my only concern- HER. But I do know that he will use her and as she is getting older try to get info out of her or make her not like my BF. I am scared of what he might do. I know part of the EX is reasonable but I do not think he can channel that when it comes to someone else being around his daughter and having no control over that. I would like to tell my EX- hey my BF is going to be around our daughter. I have spent a lot of time with him and feel comfortable moving forward in this way. And not provide him with the option to meet him but if the EX asks then I will comply. I know at some point I would like to meet the woman who might be involved in her life. I am trying to do this the right way- to try and avoid issues. But I know with a BPD sometimes no matter how hard you try it won't work. What do you all think about this approach?

And another thing-- . So in a few weeks I am traveling to AZ with my daughter. The EX will be in AZ and is taking her for a few days of my trip- so we will need to exchange. He even booked a flight back with us a week later. I would like to have this convo with him ASAP because I dont want to put my life on hold and want my BF in my WHOLE life. However I wonder if I should wait until next month- so that if things blow up- they wont be crazy when we are around family and exchanging her. Thoughts?

Already I see him alienating me and trying to keep me out of things. He knows this will hurt me the most. He wants us to do separate swim lessons which is silly because I would rather have her have one teacher rather than two. But I can see where this is going.

UGGHHHHHHH

[Panda39]

colleen83,

There seems to be a lot here about what your ex wants, and bending yourself in a pretzel for what he wants and there is also FOG going on here. He also seems very involved with your life (yes I know you share a daughter).  I know you want to be nice and co-parent with your ex and do what is right for your daughter, but an ex with BPD will use us being nice to walk all over us and boundary bust.  This type of thing went on with my SO and his uBPDxw too.

What is best for your daughter and you? What if you let go of the fear and just moved ahead with what you want to do in terms of your daughter's swimming lessons... .just sign her up and take her and invite her dad to come if he wants. And introduce your boyfriend when you and he decide it's the right time, maybe at a public event around your daughter... .could be the very same swimming lessons.

Already I see him alienating me and trying to keep me out of things

You aren't married anymore some distance might be good... .he is pushing your buttons here.

Panda39

[worriedStepmom]

You might want to reconsider the idea of first right of refusal for 12 hours or more.  That is a pain as the kids get older.  Does it mean that the child can NEVER spend the night with a grandparent or with a friend?  Does it mean that if you remarry or live with someone, your SO could not take care of your child if you go out of town for a day?  I would be back in court getting this yanked out ASAP.

It doesn't matter whether or not you introduce your BF to your ex now or not.  At some point, your ex is likely going to try to alienate the child from your BF, because he can't live with the anxiety of knowing that she has a good relationship with another potential father figure.  My H's uBPDex tried pretty hard to alienate their daughter against me.  SD was 4 at the time... .and in classic pre-schooler fashion she marched up to me and repeated all the stuff that mommy said about me.  I very calmly validated feelings and told my side in simple words.  This went on for several years, before SD finally decided that her experiences aligned more with what I said and not what Mommy said, so she started ignoring her mom.  SD is now 10 and we have a great relationship.   [uBPDex STILL tries to poison my relationship with SD, although mostly now by texting my H mean things that SD supposedly said about me.]

I strongly suggest that you get counseling for you.  It's really really really hard to set boundaries in a situation like this, and having that support will help you a lot.  You might also want to talk about your anxieties when your daughter isn't with you - it sounds like you need regular check-ins and want to be involved in everything, and that is necessarily going to be possible as she gets older.  This transition from baby/toddler to "big kid" is kind of hard for any divorced family but even worse when one parent is dealing with a personality disorder.

[BeagleGirl]

Lots of great advice here, but I wanted to chime in with one idea... .

IF you decide to honor the request that your ex meet your BF, do you think it might help to have them meet without you being present? 

I can totally understand your desire to keep your word (even if given under stressful circumstances) and to feel more justified in holding your ex to the reciprocal agreement to meet any woman he plans to bring into your daughter's life.  I think those are good reasons to agree to/facilitate the meeting.  I think it's also good to recognize the power of FOG that your ex is still exercising in your life and to learn how to set and defend boundaries.  While choosing to not introduce your BF to your ex could be a boundary to exercise, maybe the boundary you would feel better about is enforcing the "your opinion of BF will not impact my relationship with him, nor his relationship with our daughter."

BG