Dragon72's marriage counseling continues...

[Dragon72]

On Friday we had our first T session after a 3-week hiatus caused by my wife not wanting to find another babysitter for our son while her sister was out of town.

In the meantime, I have been a dedicated diarist, recording in my phone’s calendar app just about everything: every cent spent and on what, everything I have done in the house to help my wife, details of everything I have done with my son (activities, playtime, bath times, mealtimes, watching him sing in the Moms’ Day concert, bedtime stories etc.) and, of course, I have summarized interactions with my wife, especially when she has behaved in a dysfunctional manner.  It wasn’t hard to note down details of interactions with my wife as she doesn’t talk to me much and goes to bed so early meaning we never have time when it’s just the 2 of us.

I am keeping this diary for 2 reasons. Firstly, it helped me a lot in the T session to be able to remember and raise points with the T that I wanted to get off my chest and address, and secondly, if and when it comes to divorce and custody hearings, I want to provide solid evidence of my parental involvement and the general dynamic of the marriage.

The session on Friday went badly for my wife.  She came across as a bitter, angry, vindictive, suspicious, untrusting person who is quite unprepared either to recognize her own part in the dysfunction of our relationship or to make any effort to reconcile with me.  Whenever she was challenged on things by the T, my wife blatantly changed the subject or went on the counter-attack. The T picked her up on many of her negative behaviors including her demonizing of me without a shred of evidence or justification.  My wife was visibly upset throughout the session and I think even a layman with no experience of psychology would think that she was not thinking, talking or acting in a rational manner.

The T proposed that in the next session, on Thursday, we split the hour and each of us spend 20 minutes individually with the T, then come together at the end.

It should be interesting.

[formflier]

The session on Friday went badly for my wife.  

The T proposed that in the next session, on Thursday, we split the hour and each of us spend 20 minutes individually with the T, then come together at the end.
 

Or... .it went well in that a trained mental health professional got to see "reality" as opposed to a "veneer".

So... .in the session that you just had... .did you wife agree to anything?  Such as... .talk more, just 1 on 1?  Or... .did she agree to anything to improve things?

Have you talked to a L yet about separation and how mental health may play into things?  I ask because your 1 on 1 time may be a good time to ask some direct questions.

Such as... .have you seen enough to make a diagnosis on either one of us?  If not, what would that look like? 

I would ask your L if diagnosis like that matter for separation/custody.

Not trying to scare you... .but prepare you and then hope it doesn't need to be used.

FF

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Dragon72, I admire your courage to undertake MC with your W.  I'm going to go out on a limb and make a prediction that your W will find an excuse to cancel or postpone the next meeting.  Maybe I will be proven wrong and, if so, that's all to the good.  Keep us posted!  LJ

[Dragon72]

Yes, I do think the T got to see my wife for who she is.  I mentioned how, when I urged my wife to rein in spending as we were running out of money, she had shut the conversation down by insisting that I had plenty. When I said this to the T, my wife immediately started accusing me of siphoning money and being dishonest. I then produced a printout with details of where every penny has gone since the last time I got paid.  My wife refused to even glance at it, saying "Anyone can manipulate figures" and called me a compulsive liar.
She showed to the T very clearly that she only sees me through a prism that portrays me as a bad person.

At one point my wife threatened me too.  She said to me, cryptically, "You're not the only male member of my family, you know". The implication was that her brothers could come and "deal with me" if I ever did anything bad towards her. The T picked this up as a threat too, even before I did.

We didn't come to any agreements in the last session. It kind of lost its focus a bit. It was clear that my wife has done little to try to improve things between us (in fact, quite the opposite) and the only real outcome was to agree to split the next session.

I haven't yet talked to a lawyer about separation and mental health issues. I wanted to give it more time with the T and let my wife demonstrate more character traits. I feel she has done that very nicely over the course of the 4 sessions we have had so far and I am going to take advantage of the individual time with the T on Thursday to ask the T if she has an opinion.  I won't mention the words BPD (my unqualified diagnosis), but hope that the T has enough training and expertise to recognise at least a disorder of some description, which could be useful in any subsequent litigation.

[formflier]

I think it is a big mistake to delay talking with a L.   

I'm not saying you should take legal action... .I am saying you need to fully understand your options.

Listen, I hope for the best for you.  I will also say that many times a "turn" in a BPD relationship goes fast.  Preparation on your point is critical.

A "turn" can be good or bad.

At one point my wife threatened me too.  She said to me, cryptically, "You're not the only male member of my family, you know". The implication was that her brothers could come and "deal with me" if I ever did anything bad towards her. The T picked this up as a threat too, even before I did.

What did the T do here?  Say?


 

I haven't yet talked to a lawyer about separation and mental health issues. I wanted to give it more time with the T and let my wife demonstrate more character traits. I feel she has done that very nicely over the course of the 4 sessions we have had so far and I am going to take advantage of the individual time with the T on Thursday to ask the T if she has an opinion. 

Confirm the bold part... that you are talking about your T.

What specifically has she done that leads you to this judgment?  It sounds like she listens a lot and brings up issues.  Can you flesh this part out a bit more?

FF

[Dragon72]

I can't remember exactly what the T said when my wife cryptically threatened me.  I remember seeing the T's eyebrows raise as my wife said the words and them her agreeing with my interpretation and request for clarification from my wife that it was indeed a threat. I think my wife took us off on a tangent at that point.

That bit in bold was about my wife demonstrating clearly what she's really like. I wasn't talking about the T's skill.

I will talk to the lawyer soon.

Just remembered. In Friday's session, my wife also confirmed that she hit me once too when she was angry.  It was the day I found out that she had spent a few hundred bucks on a funeral plot for her and our son without my consent. I was driving and I was telling her how angry I was that she did that and I missed seeing a speed bump and I drove over it a little to fast so we all jumped in the car. My wife told me to pull over, so I did. She then got out, opened the driver's door where I was, screamed at me and then punched me on the shoulder. I didn't react and waited for her to get safely back in the car before driving off.  
My wife recounted the story (pretty faithfully and accurately) to the T, even confirming that I had missed seeing the speed bump (ie, didn't drive fast over it intentionally), then my wife dismissed the punch as "just a knock on the shoulder" but the T said "A hit is a hit".

[Dragon72]

I can't remember exactly what the T said when my wife cryptically threatened me.  I remember seeing the T's eyebrows raise as my wife said the words and them her agreeing with my interpretation and request for clarification from my wife that it was indeed a threat. I think my wife took us off on a tangent at that point.

That bit in bold was about my wife demonstrating clearly what she's really like. I wasn't talking about the T's skill.

I will talk to the lawyer soon.

Just remembered. In Friday's session, my wife also confirmed that she hit me once too when she was angry.  It was the day I found out that she had spent a few hundred bucks on a funeral plot for her and our son without my consent. I was driving and I was telling her how angry I was that she did that and I missed seeing a speed bump and I drove over it a little to fast so we all jumped in the car. My wife told me to pull over, so I did. She then got out, opened the driver's door where I was, screamed at me and then punched me on the shoulder. I didn't react and waited for her to get safely back in the car before driving off.  
My wife recounted the story (pretty faithfully and accurately) to the T, even confirming that I had missed seeing the speed bump (ie, didn't drive fast over it intentionally), then my wife dismissed the punch as "just a knock on the shoulder" but the T said "A hit is a hit".

[formflier]

I will talk to the lawyer soon.
 

I would push to get at least one consultation done... .prior to private time with the T this coming week (Thursday I think you said)

FF

[Dragon72]

What specific questions do you suggest?

[formflier]

What specific questions do you suggest?

Explain entire situation, ask his advice about your chances for 50/50 or better custody.

Ask about how courts see mental illness.

Ask about your status as a foreigner.

Make sure and talk about wife ignoring psychologist about sleeping arrangements.

Ask what will happen is crazy claims are made... .with no evidence... .but lots of passion.

FF

[GD39]

Explain entire situation, ask his advice about your chances for 50/50 or better custody.

Ask about how courts see mental illness.

Ask about your status as a foreigner.

Make sure and talk about wife ignoring psychologist about sleeping arrangements.

Ask what will happen is crazy claims are made... .with no evidence... .but lots of passion.

FF

I would be very interested on the part of mental illness and custody on the Mexican system. If you get any information and share Id appreciate it. My ex's mother has brought charges against her, and it is nasty. She wants me for a witness, and I am on the fence on what to do. If it comes to that, Ill share with you guys more details.

[Dragon72]

I still haven't had the chance to talk with my lawyer.  I'll try to make it happen before tomorrow.

My wife is in a sort of peaceful mode at the moment.  She's not being aggressive or defensive. She's being warm, but in a sort of "arms-length" sort of way. It's still not what I would call a marriage. More like cohabitation.

There was a moment of suprising behavior recently. 

On Saturday, my wife announced out of the blue that she would be going into the city center with her sister.  This was at about 9am and she left pretty much there and then. It takes about an hour to get there, so I assumed she would be gone until about 6.30 when our son usually has his supper and begins to get ready for bed.  She asked our son if he wanted to go with her or stay with me and he wanted to go with her so off they went.  She didn't specify what they were going for. I assumed it was to do a bit of shopping.

Nevertheless, I enjoyed the freedom from eggshells for a day.  By 6.30pm there wasn't any sign of them coming back, and she didn't message me, so I texted her asking if they were okay.  The city center where I live can be a dangerous place. 
At 7pm (our son's suppertime) she texted back to say that they were fine. Nothing more.  I asked when they were planning to get back. 
At 7.30 I'd had no reply so I asked again.  Soon after, she replied that they were on their way home. 
At 8.30, they still hadn't arrived, no message.
At 9, still hadn't arrived and there was an almighty thunder/hail storm outside, so I texted saying I was worried.  At 9.15 she replied saying that they were being picked up at the subway station by my sister in law's daughter who brought them back.
They eventually got in at 9.45.  More than 12 hours after leaving and well after my son's bedtime.

When they got back, I calmly but assertively told my wife that I wasn't happy that she had not kept me informed and that she had brought our son back so late.  I asked what they had been doing for 12 hours. I just got some vague answer about being with her sister who met up with one of her girl friends. No specifics.  I restated that I was worried about them and angry that she hadn't thought to keep me informed.

She then did 2 things she has NEVER done before: she said sorry (unequivocally) and gave me a hug.

This is from a lady who has barely even been talking to me let alone be physically affectionate.  I didn't think she even had the word "sorry" in her vocabulary.

[Dragon72]

We had T session #5 yesterday evening. The plan was  to spend 20 mins individually with the T, then come together for the final 20 minutes.

I let the T take control in my private 20 minutes (I went 2nd) and that meant that I didn't get to address some issues that I would have liked to during my alone time with her (such as "What's your clinical assessment of my wife from what you have seen so far?". 

The T asked each of us in turn questions about our families of origin during the 1to1 sessions.  I think that was a good thing because it is highly relevant in both of our cases in terms of understanding how we became the people we are.

When we came back together for the final 20 minutes, the T highlighted some of the similarities in our respective stories. Absent fathers, domineering mothers being the main theme.  I found it useful to hear about my wife's childhood (which she has never really discussed with me before) and learn just how much she was emotionally neglected, and "lost" in the middle of 7 siblings.  I think my wife had to do a lot of parenting of her younger siblings.  No mention was made of her mother bullying her, which I had previously heard from one of her siblings.  But it was useful to know, or at least be reminded that her current behavior is the probable result of things that were no fault of my wife's. She seemed to me a little bit more human again.

In the previous session, the subject of money dominated, with my wife vehemently insisting that I am a down-to-the-bone liar and that all my careful record keeping of spending was all "manipulated data".  My wife refused to even look at the spreadsheet I printed off for her to look at in the last session, insisting that she would only be satisfied looking at official bank documentation.

So this week I brought to the T session a big folder of itemized bank account and credit card statemements for the last 6 months.  I handed the folder over to my wife and the T said that my wife's homework was to go through the statements and discuss any issues in the next session.  Should be interesting.  Whenever I have tried to prove my innocence with evidence before (JADE'ing, basically) it has only made her more convinced of my guilt. Let's see how it turns out with an intermediary.

My homework is to write down:
1.) a list of reasons why I want to stay in the marriage
and 2.) what changes I would like to see happen to make it possible.
#1 is difficult. I can only think of reasons why it would be difficult to leave.
#2 is easier, but I'll have to make sure it doesn't just end up being a list of my wife's dysfunctional behavior.

[PeteWitsend]

Hey dragon,

Did you let your wife know you're journaling/keeping a record of things?

I made the mistake of telling my wife I was doing this about a year and a half ago, and she went nuts.  she made me promise to stop. now whenever we fight she demands to know if I'm "building a case against [her]"

I figured she knows that the chance I'll sit there and endure this behavior from her is jeopardized if I keep track of how often it occurs.  undermines her attempts to portray her behavior as a response to mine, or an isolated incident, instead of the pattern it is.

ALSO... .I agree with LuckyJim: she'll probably find an excuse to stop
going sooner or later.  same thing happened in our case, once we used a therapist that called her out for screaming, raging, insulting me, etc. instead of sitting there yawning, and telling us to work on learning eachother's "love languages"... .

[Dragon72]

She knows I catalog every cent I spend. She doesn't know I keep a "craziness" log and she doesn't know I keep a record of all the things I do with our son so that I can show how much I am involved as a Dad. 

[formflier]

So this week I brought to the T session a big folder of itemized bank account and credit card statemements for the last 6 months.  I handed the folder over to my wife and the T said that my wife's homework was to go through the statements and discuss any issues in the next session.  Should be interesting.  Whenever I have tried to prove my innocence with evidence before (JADE'ing, basically) it has only made her more convinced of my guilt. Let's see how it turns out with an intermediary.
 

This is genius.

Do you understand what the T did?  Instead of you or the T defending yourselves... .she gave your wife the job of assembling data... .to show her point.

She let your wife do her own work... .instead of you doing the work for her.  (ever heard that around here?)

I love this...

FF

[Dragon72]

We have our next session on Wednesday.

My homework is to come up with two lists:
1. Reasons to try to salvage the marriage.
2. Changes that I would like to see happen.

I'm in a bit of a negative hole at the moment. Depressed, even. There is so little personal connection between my wife and me.  So I'm finding it tough to approach this task.  If you asked me to say what I love about my wife, I'd find it difficult to say much, so reasons to stay in the relationship would be mostly centered on our son.

And as for the changes I'd like to see happen, my list is in danger of becoming a list of everything I dislike about my wife.

But if I were to take the task seriously it would comprise things that I think she's incapable of now she has split me black: I want her to start to trust me, I want us to have emotional intimacy, I want her to respect as an individual, I want her to show empathy.  But these are things I can't demand of her. They have to come from her willingly.  You can't just ask someone to trust you when they simply don't.  It's like asking someone with a broken leg to climb Mt. Everest.  It ain't gonna happen.

I want to suggest achieveable goals.  But then again, if we're just talking little things, I feel that would be just sticking band-aids on a cancer sufferer. 

I think I need to be convinced that we are worth rescuing as a couple.

[formflier]

I would suggest making the entire list... .everything you can think of.  Set the list aside.  Come back to it and rank it... put it aside again.

Then look for themes.

The list you bring should be more about "process" than specifics.

such as
1.  Follow expert guidance regarding best practices for raising our son.  (likely you solve 10 or so things on your list with this... right?)

2.  Communicate to gain understanding of each others points of view.

I would only turn in 3-4 things.

I would advise you to stay away from having the top reason to stay together be "your son". 

This is midfield territory... .use this list to solve some things and stay positive.

FF

[Dragon72]

The underlying themes of my list of things I would like to change are:

Trust
Clear and Direct Communication
Empathy
Intimacy
Respect

They are the things that are lacking from my wife in our relationship.  I'm going to run with that.

As for my list of reasons for wanting to be with my wife, I'm struggling to come up with anything I like about her.  The only reasons I can think of are based on practicalities.

Another thing I would like to mention is that I really think my wife needs to get a life. She seems to have no interests or hobbies or friends that she sees regularly. Just about the only social contact she has is with her family.    I think she always puts our son first and she could do with fulfilling her own needs every once in a while.

It'll be interesting to hear how her forensic revision of my accounts went. She has made no mention of it and the folder I handed her doesn't seem to have moved all week.

¡Vámonos!

[formflier]

The underlying themes of my list of things I would like to change are:

Trust
Clear and Direct Communication
Empathy
Intimacy
Respect

They are the things that are lacking from my wife in our relationship.  I'm going to run with that.
 

OK... .I'm going to suggest that you whittle this down.

1.  Respect
2.  Clear and Direct Communication
3.  Change priorities, marriage relationship (do not say you) first... child second.

I'm not saying the other stuff isn't important, I'm saying that without these things above... .empathy won't matter... the other stuff won't matter.

If the stuff above shows up, the rest of the items on your list will take care of themselves.

So... I think you need to be honest about your lack of a list for staying together, yet do it in a smart way.

So... .talk about the memories of good times... the memories of why you got together and say that you are hopeful you can get back to that someday... and that is your motivation.

Don't come out and say... .I haven't a clue or a reason.

Can you see the reasoning here?  Thoughts?

FF

[formflier]

Keep your reasons for the change in priorities short.

Good marriages tend to produce good children.

Good children (where they are the focus) tend NOT to produce good marriages.

FF

[Dragon72]

It looks like I got me a session on my own this afternoon.

Yesterday evening at about the same time as the sessions take place, there was a torrential storm. There usually is this time of the year at that time of the evening, but you just dash for shelter and wait it out. They soon pass.  So my wife said, "If it rains like that tomorrow, I'm not going to the session".

I just checked with my wife to see if she's all set for this evening's session and she wrote back, "Yesterday I explained to you why, I'm going to skip it till the next session."
(There's not a cloud in the sky)
"OK" I replied.  So I'm on my way there for a 1to1. Goody!

[formflier]

"OK" I replied.  So I'm on my way there for a 1to1. Goody!

Good on you for going.

Ask the T what her thoughts are on what you should discuss with your wife about the 1 on 1.  My gut reaction is not much, so there is incentive for her to return.

Very important that the "big picture" is that you are going to get help for yourself and the relationship, regardless of what your wife does.

FF

[Dragon72]

I enjoyed the solo T session yesterday. It felt very cathartic to be able to talk without censoring or worrying that I'm burdening like I would with friends who are aware of my general situation.

I didn't find the opportunity to ask the T's professional opinion about my wife. That kind of seemed irrelevant as the session was more about me, how I got into the relationship and my people-pleasing tendencies.  I felt it was still a getting-to-know-you session on behalf of the T, but I think she has a MUCH better idea of who I am now.  I also found it useful to hear myself describe myself and see just what sort of a person I am.

She was very quick to perceive that I am a long-term high-functioning sufferer of depression and that living in my dysfunctional marriage certainly is not helping that condition. She said I am doing remarkably well in spite of everything. It was great to get the validation that what I am living through is not at all easy.

The T was surprised when I showed up alone, and a little confused by my wife's reasoning about not wanting to go because there was a rainstorm yesterday. We are into the rainy season in Mexico City after all and we have umbrellas.  The T has asked that my wife go solo to the next session.

When I got home, it was bedtime for the little one, so I read him his stories and said good night. At which point my wife went to bed with him, so I didn't talk to her at all about the session. My plan is not to give much detail, since it was really mostly about me.

[formflier]

My plan is not to give much detail, since it was really mostly about me.

Whatever you plan to give... .cut that in half and you will likely be about right.

Let her know that next time is her session.

"I think the MC better understands who I am since she had an opportunity to ask more questions about me."

Leave it at that... .or suggest that it being a topic discussed in therapy at a future date.  Don't say you won't discuss it... .say you want to be wise and thoughtful about it.

FF

[Dragon72]

The T said to me that I need a bigger support network.  I didn't tell her about this place, which is my main support resource, but she's right.  When she said that I recognised that I also need more of a social life, which is also a part of looking after myself.

[formflier]

I think you are safe... and likely appropriate to mention "anonymous online support groups" and that you participate in them

I would be shocked if she pressed you for more information.

Context:  my P knows that I do online stuff... .but she has never pressed me for details.  She has asked for broad descriptions of what was "taught" and all that... .  Once she was satisfied it was nothing weird or unhelpful... .she said she was supportive and dropped it. 

Said another way... .it is reasonable for your MC to inquire some... because there are lots of unhelpful online sites (IMO).

FF

[Dragon72]

Today it's Mrs Dragon72's turn to have a 1on1 with the therapist.

I hope that it goes well. But I'm not going to think about it too much because a) it should be more about her than about me and b) even if she does misrepresent me or distort truth or even lie, I know that there's nothing I can do to about it. Radical acceptance.

I have been thinking a lot recently that the heart of the issue lies with me, rather than with her. The last T sessions really made me realise that I have some distorted thought patterns, particularly about myself, that have their roots in childhood, which have led me to allow myself to maintain a dysfunctional relationship with an equally but differently damaged person.

That hard part is working out what to do with this realization and where to go from here.

[Lucky Jim]

The last T sessions really made me realise that I have some distorted thought patterns, particularly about myself, that have their roots in childhood, which have led me to allow myself to maintain a dysfunctional relationship with an equally but differently damaged person.

Hey Dragon72, Same could be said for most of us Nons, I suspect, which is why we get into a r/s with a pwBPD in the first place.  You have put your finger on the jumping off place for new growth, in my view.  If you can see patterns from childhood and/or your FOO, you are in a position to change them.

LJ

[formflier]

I have been thinking a lot recently that the heart of the issue lies with me, rather than with her. 

Boundaries:  The "heart" of your issues absolutely lies with you.
 
Her issues lie with her.

Where it gets really complex is that each relationship is different... .because you each bring your own hearts... .and the way they combine is unique. (although many of the big picture principles and things stay the same).


So... I encourage you to "own" your stuff... .because you get to vote on that... and change that.

Also... .don't "own" hers...

So... .if you want to share details... .we are ready to listen.  Perhaps we can help you think it through.


FF