Timing..,who’s on first and where?

[Dignity&Strength]

Hi LNL,

I made a discovery today of a homeopathic remedy for “feeling fatigued and achy from overwork”, made by Boiron. Wow, what a difference! I can move without the back pain and super tired “mono” like symptoms.

I am putting together a document with my account of the most significant, concerning events that have happened recently, and with any evidence I have. I’m supposed to email it to my lawyers assistant. That’s when the professional opinion of what chances I have in court comes in. He may say it’s not enough to prove my H is a danger to my son yet. There has to be a pattern of behavior.

After he’s had a chance to go through that, he can tell me more about the other pieces, such as the 10 year anniversary and who files first. Back in March, he told me, if we file now, I wouldn’t get retirement alimony. I’m not sure if he meant that was because we filed before 10 years, or because he knew he couldn’t drag it out a year. So, I’ll send that question with my email to the assistant.

Strangely enough, the notion of the mental health of a man who is mean and cruel to animals has me most afraid. it’s the pattern of bad things happening to the cats, with the last one disappearing altogether, that has me most concerned. That combined with his harsh stance on the adorable lab mix puppies on my back porch. He hates them, is threatening to move out if I keep them, etc. Rhetorical question, but what kind of dad doesn’t want his S5 with special needs to have a puppy? Even if it’s paid for by my grad school loan money, because they’ll be my therapy dogs for work? Even if I keep the yard cleaned and they’re not in the house (much, or while he’s home)? He’s only home 48 hours, once a week, plus a couple hours in between trips, only twice a week. What kind of dad insists on his son not having that? And possibly takes his sons favorite cat and dumps him somewhere? It’s almost like he doesn’t want S5 to love anything of anyone but daddy.

My gut instinct is screaming at me, that I don’t have as much time as I’d like, to wait until the end of my long term safety plan. The animal issues, the songs/poems he’s taught my S5, (with the veiled threats) and the escalating contempt coming from him.

All I can do for now, if one foot in front of the other, determine the next correct thing to do. Starting with sleep. And my to do list for tomorrow. And the dishes, etc. The actions in getting us out of here are small, and a tiny, hopefully unnoticed bit at a time. Tonight I packed a small moving box with personal items that might not be missed. Glass pieces, like my grandmothers candy dish, bubble wrapped, my childhood teddy bear, favorite book off the shelf. How thankful I am that he works out of town for long periods and it’s somewhat predictable.

Yes, there’s really not much to negotiate with myself, only worrisome circular “what if’s” and an overwhelming sense of helplessness. I can sort of see, that doing the next thing on the list gives my sense of power back and silences the what if’s. If I’m doing all I can, that’s the best I can do. The what if’s will reveal themselves in time. Like pealing a stinky eye watering onion. Yuck.

Goodnight everyone, and thank you for all the kind words and encouragement!
Dig

[livednlearned]

I made a discovery today of a homeopathic remedy for “feeling fatigued and achy from overwork”, made by Boiron. Wow, what a difference! I can move without the back pain and super tired “mono” like symptoms.

  Great that you are taking care of yourself, and that you discovered something helpful.

I am putting together a document with my account of the most significant, concerning events that have happened recently, and with any evidence I have. I’m supposed to email it to my lawyers assistant. That’s when the professional opinion of what chances I have in court comes in. He may say it’s not enough to prove my H is a danger to my son yet. There has to be a pattern of behavior.

Will your L consider a custody evaluation? That's another way to shine light on things. It does cost a lot of money.

He’s only home 48 hours, once a week, plus a couple hours in between trips, only twice a week.

Wow. That'a pretty extreme schedule. It will be interesting to hear what kind of strategy your L suggests.

It’s almost like he doesn’t want S5 to love anything of anyone but daddy.

I think you're absolutely right.

With my ex, he would get angry if my son and I read together. And n/BPDx would say, You love the dog more than me. When my son started to say that, it was devastating. It took therapy to figure out a way to respond in a skillful way.

My gut instinct is screaming at me, that I don’t have as much time as I’d like, to wait until the end of my long term safety plan.

You are doing all the right things. You are gathering as much information as you can, documenting everything you can, have back up plans in case plan A doesn't work. Doing small unnoticeable things, slowly.

That's the best you can do. You are being careful and thoughtful, and deliberate, which is all good. And you're making your way to safety, a huge thing! There will come a moment when you can no longer hold on, and it will be nerve-wracking and scary -- that's how uncertainty feels, and the intensity is probably fueled by the love you have for S5. You want to get him to safety, and the court system is a question mark for now.

Maybe you get to follow the plan exactly, maybe not. Being prepared increases the chances that you are a few steps ahead of him no matter what happens.

My ex was a former trial attorney and I ended up with full custody in a county people said doesn't award full custody. Somehow, being a few steps ahead made all the difference. It took incremental steps to get to my goal, and there were some awful periods where my ex was psychotic, and the courts gave my ex third and fourth chances. But the courts eventually caught up to what I was saying all along and here we are 8 years later, not perfect because that isn't possible when a spouse has a PD, but better than the alternative, which would be unable to provide a safe home for S16. 

I can sort of see, that doing the next thing on the list gives my sense of power back and silences the what if’s. If I’m doing all I can, that’s the best I can do. The what if’s will reveal themselves in time.

 

You are doing an amazing job, D&S.

Keep doing what you're doing  

LnL

[Radcliff]

Dig,

Can you tell us what the benefit is where you live of filing for divorce under a DV situation vs. you being the respondent after your husband files?  Does it give you preference with respect to custody if there is a DV finding? 

When you are gathering information, the more specifics the better.  You mentioned having your son in a hot attic.  I've had my daughter in the attic to repair the furnace with me, and feel like a little bit of a tough situation is character building.  The key is the details -- how hot was the attic, and how long was he up there?  Can you stick a thermometer up there on a similar day?  I know you're busy, and there may not be time for this, just giving examples on how to strengthen your documentation so it's less of a he said -- she said.

Another example is the tree climbing.  You mentioned 50 feet.  That is very high.  Too high for S5 with one hand.  But someone might feel like it's more likely that you misjudged the height than that he was really at a crazy height.  If you look at the tree, you probably remember exactly where he was.  Was it higher than a telephone pole?  Can you compare it to nearby references like the peak of a roof?

One of the most powerful things I had going for me was the sheer number of specific examples I had.  Most people who make stuff up don't have a ton of detail over a protracted period of time.  Most people cannot write fiction that well.  Another thing that made a huge impression was the quotes.  The things she said were just stunning.  Even though I didn't have recordings, I had three single spaced pages of the most awful, crazy quotes that I'd pulled from my journal, and was prepared to swear to their accuracy and the date she said each one of them.  It hasn't been tested at trial, but I know that information convinced neutral professionals that I was telling the truth.

WW

[livednlearned]

Wentworth makes a really good point.

There is theater to this stuff.

"My ex sent a lot of emails"

paints less of a picture than

"My ex sent over 10,000 emails. He sent 100 emails in an 8 hour period. During that same time he sent over 100 text messages, direct messages, and left 11 voice mails in succession after midnight. I have a folder of this particular day and the messages he sent, and I have several binders of the thousands of others sent over the course of our divorce."

If you could have someone from the fire department or an arborist come out and estimate how high the tree is, how high the spot where S5 climbed to, you strengthen the pictures being painted in people's minds. No need to tell why you need this estimate, only that you can say "An arborist estimated that the spot where S5 was in the tree was 50 feet."

Another thing that can be tough in our cases is that we sound paranoid.

If you talk to a pediatrician with expertise in your son's condition, ask him or her, "Is it safe for S5 to be climbing a tree that is 50 feet high?"

Then when you describe your concerns to the court, you can say, "An arborist estimated the tree was 50 feet, taller than a telephone pole, and a pediatrician, when asked, said that it was extremely unsafe for a 5-year-old with one hand to be climbing this high. If you have dates and times of when things happened, that can really help.

You will want to persuade the judge that the quality of your documentation cannot be disputed or explained away. "S5's father is home for 48 hours every two weeks, and his parenting choices during those brief visits shows serious lapses in judgement that endanger the child. S5 has one hand, your honor, and what would be considered for any 5 year old is flat out dangerous for S5."

Then recommend something like parenting classes, anger management classes, therapy for S5, coparenting therapy, a psychiatric evaluation, or custody evaluation.

Your H will have a harder time than most following court orders because of his narcissism, is my guess. Raising some questions about his fitness as a parent will trigger the court to agree that H needs to demonstrate his ability to be a better parent.

There are always variables in these cases, but I found that n/BPDx started to behave toward the court/judge/orders the same way he behaved toward me. I presented enough evidence, but it was the continuation of those behaviors in front of the judge that seemed to tip things my way.

Once n/BPDx started to lose consistently, he dysregulated more until he basically quit doing anything the judge requested.

[Dignity&Strength]

Hi all,
I am ok, still plugging away at the documentation advice! Only from the safety of my parents house. Brought all living things this trip, puppies, cats, houseplant. By myself. 16 hour overnight trip. Wheeling the whole crew inside for bathroom stops in a fold up heavy duty utility wagon. But we’re all here, safe and sound! I’m plugging away at grad schoolwork, documentation, self care, and making memories with my parents. They are a piece of work, especially my dad. I am grateful for them, but totally see how the history of emotional scapegoat role they put me in helped me accidentally marry someone unhealthy.

I’m hoping to have some documentation completed for “the Cake man”this week. That’s what my S5 calls him, because while we were there, he fed him cake, .

I Hope everyone is well, succeeding in winning your own battles, and resilient. Thank you for all of the support.
The BPD family rocks!
Dig.

[Radcliff]

Thanks for the update!  Glad you arrived safely!  You and your menagerie in that utility wagon must have been quite a sight!  I'm glad to hear that while you see the role your parents played in prepping you for the choices you made, you also are able to appreciate them and enjoy making memories with them.  It took me years to get to that place, and it's really been a work in progress and continues to be so.

A while back you were concerned that your husband would file any day.  How are you feeling about timing?  It sounds like you're working with some urgency while you've got safety, but I didn't get the sense that you're worried that things will go down imminently.

WW

[Dignity&Strength]

Hi WW,

I am keeping a finger on the pulse of his imminent threat to file. Just this weekend, his parents drove a long ways to spend Father’s Day with him. They never come visit when S5 and myself aren’t there. I had 2 friends drive through the neighborhood, unnoticed, just to see if they were moving him out. Nobody noticed anything. But I am working with some haste to gather documentation, write it all out, so my attorney will have it.

The attorney may see the recent events in the documentation and think I need to file now, and try not to go back. I’m hoping to complete something workable this week. It’s taking a toll though, my body aches all over. I suppose that’s typical, seeing it all, remembering it all. Like an abuse hangover.

It may be enough to charge him with harassment in criminal court as well as dv in civil court. Not sure. The constant persistence of his behavior certainly is harrassing, with little relief. I’m sure he intends it to be that way.

I’m in the stage of writing out events, with dates if possible, making note of any evidence there may be. I’ll have to go back and match evidence artifacts to events.  Sometimes I think, golly this sounds like I am paranoid and sensitive, and others I think, geez, somebody in the helping organizations (women’s shelter, investigator) could get in trouble for sending me away with no help, with all this going on. I guess it will depend on who sees it, and their perception.

Headed off for a much needed nap

[livednlearned]

Your L will (hopefully) have a strategy for what needs to be presented as evidence. Your (difficult) job is to make it easy to spot patterns of behaviors and the evidence to go with those behaviors.

It might work different in your case. In mine, it worked like this.

My binder had five categories, and my L picked the one "insults, name calling." I thought that would be the least important one because sticks and stones and all that.

But my judge was a Southern gentlemen type with a history of being offended when people can't be civil to one another.

When my ex and I were deposed (a tactic his L used to gauge my standing as a credible witness), my L asked my ex if he had a problem with anger. He of course said no, that I was the one with anger issues. She then asked him if he called me names or used insults. He said no. Then she took out the folder of emails where he called me whore and asked if he had sent the email, to which he said maybe, yes, he couldn't remember. Then she showed him the email and he verified that it was sent by him on day/date. She asked if he was still angry and he said no. Then she pulled out each printed email and went through things one by one, same as before, asking him the same questions. She also would ask what prompted him to send single-word emails with those words, and he said I provoked him. Then she would show him the "provocative" email I sent him and it would be a civil, reasonable request pertaining to our son.  

My ex retained a father's rights attorney who visibly winced. I was a highly credible witness and he was learning that his client wasn't being honest with him.

That deposition changed opposing L's strategy.

Opposing L thought it was important to keep his client out of court, so he started to try to manage ex, and you know how that goes with someone who is BPD.

This is just one example of how evidence can be used. Your L should be able to give you an overall strategy, explain what goals are realistic in the short term, in the long term, and what kinds of tactics will work well with the judge you have.

[Dignity&Strength]

Wow,
that’s amazing, LNL! Such great strategy and evidence, and your ex showing his true colors like that, especially in writing.

 I think that would take a miracle in my case. But I’m trying to be faithful to document as much as I can. It’s the covert-ness about my husband that worries me the most. He shows his true colors most to our s5c when they are alone, in the things S5 says his daddy says to him outside. But it’s against the law to hide a recorder on S5, because he is below the age of consent, and in my state, one of 2 parties must be aware of and consent to being recorded. So no hiding it in the tree anywhere or under the swing.

Surely my attorney will know what to go after. He seems very very smart, and understands who my husband is, almost more than I do. At the moment, I’m writing a section on risky parenting choices and s5’s special needs.

Dig.
 

[Radcliff]

Dig,

What you are doing is a tough task.  I did some digging and unearthed my post from when I was doing what you are doing now:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=316170.msg12907375#msg12907375

Reading it in hindsight, I think I glossed over the impact that the exercise had on me.  Seeing all in one place the abuse that I'd recorded event by event left me shaken.  The next day I left work at lunch and just wandered around the neighborhood in a daze for a while.

Pace yourself, take breaks.  Intersperse the work with life-affirming, healing activities.  This documentation will save you.  You are telling a complicated story.  One of the most important audiences is you.  Because of your documentation, and especially once you've reviewed and summarized it, you will have confidence in what happened and your ability to represent it to others.  Going through the evidence may be immensely painful, but the benefits will be just as great.

Can you store a memory stick at your parent's house?  Do you have it all stored in the cloud?  I'm sure you've got this covered, but you want to make sure that no human or natural calamity can erase that evidence and your summaries.

WW

[Dignity&Strength]

Oy vey, indeed, WW!

Thank you for taking time to look up your post. It is my experience the past 2 days. The daze you described... .yes. The shock of seeing it all in writing. I am the most important audience for it. That’s true.

I think our minds and bodies minimize, forget, and push past, as a self-healing mechanism. Bessel van der Kolk writes about this. His book title says it all... .the body keeps the score.

I feel exactly as I did many years ago after a minor car wreck. Hurt and achy all over, stiff neck, mind in a foggy daze. I’m so glad this is “normal”. It will pass.

I have found something wonderful to listen to as I go through it. I’ll share the link. It’s an instrumental version of This is my Fight Song, overlaid with Amazing Grace. It brings tears to listen to it, as I write all the horrible memories. Yet I hope there’s healing in the telling of it. It’s pretty powerful and triggering for me, to play it at the same time as the No Mans Land scene from Wonder Woman, but That’s how this feels. On that battle field taking all the fire, bravely fighting back and standing up to the abuse. Here’s the links. I am grateful to know, you guys have been through it and are ok. Thanks for the encouragement. Know anybody who can mash these links together and get a new video? I’m not that savvy. Maybe a question for the random thread.

Dig
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOO5qRjVFLw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEgjYABKWrI

[Turkish]

Great song and great movie 

[Radcliff]

Beautiful Scottish Highlands video, thank you!

When it comes time to return, you will need to make an adjustment.  I found that once I got a lot of support, and a clear catalog of abusive behavior, I started asserting myself, but also got a little rebellious, not always judging how much exposure I was creating to pushback.  You may then need to look to spy movies or WWII resistance movies for inspiration!

WW

[Dignity&Strength]

Well,

There was a major development today. I should have thought through the asserting myself and pushback idea, more than I did. I thought, nah, I won’t do that. I did. Oops.

Major oops. He has been calling, threatening to take away my access to money, by taking all or some of our savings, and reducing the amount going into checking each payday.

So, when he called and said he was headed to the bank, to withdraw money, $1,000 from savings and some from checking, but that I deserve for him to take it all, I acted.

I called the bank, who wired 2/3 of our savings to an old account of mine from my hometown. Before he got there. It’s a 30 minute drive for him.

So... .he’s livid. Says he’s going to file for separation on Monday. Oops. Long term
Plan gone, if he follows through. I did get the conversations recorded.

Geez. The amount I had wired is nowhere near what lifetime alimony would be. Oops. 10
Year date is still 38 weeks away. 8 months and 2 weeks. Maybe I can talk him out of it. I wish I had just let him take it all. That would have made him look bad in court. I didn’t think that one through.

Anybody done that? Big oops. Really, all he wanted was to make me cry. But, picking up my book bag the other day, i accidentally gave myself whiplash. I feel like I’ve beem in a car wreck. So thinking things through didn’t happen. And my dad was away at a funeral, I couldn’t check in with him first. It happened SO fast.

Dig

[livednlearned]

I would've done the exact same thing.

He wants control more than he wants divorce, is my guess, altho you know him best.

My experience with BPD is that divorce is simply a big stick to keep the marriage under control. It's the biggest stick. Threatening to use it, and using it, are two totally separate things.

For other people here, divorce was necessary because their BPD ex found a replacement, or had something else lined up and ready to go. There are other reasons, but threats of divorce seem to be a terrible attempt to regain control in the relationship. Either you are on top, or you are on the bottom. People with a lot of narcissism in their BPD need to be on top.

I'm not advocating for you to stay or go, only that this may be a bluff. He lost control and has to gain it back somewhere.

If you give him back control by giving him back the money, there may be an unpleasant test period where he has to check and see if the control worked.

If you keep the money, he will have to up the ante somewhere else. Maybe he files for divorce by then stonewalls the process until his narcissistic injury is appeased in some other way.

[Dignity&Strength]

That’s totally on point, LNL.  He needs control back. It happens every time I’m at my parents for a while. That’s why I brought all
The animals this time.

I suppose the only way to know which one he would feel more control with it to ask him. Maybe ask him if putting the money back would keep him from filing? You’re right about the testing period, the uncomfortable hell he puts me through to make his point.

Really, all he wanted was for me to cry and beg about something. It’s always that, no matter what the thing is about.

Did asking what he wanted ever do any good, or do more harm than good?
I’m nearly out of tears, I just couldn’t do it yesterday. Whiplash really has me down. I had no idea my neck could hurt so much.

Grad paper to write today and tomorrow, along with documents to the cake man.
I sure am missing out on playing and having fun with my S5 so far today. I’ve had to stay in bed and rest while my parents play with him. The chiropractor doesn’t open again until Monday.

Dig

[ForeverDad]

Ask our members how many of them had the ex drain the joint accounts.  It didn't happen to me but it's been reported.  Guess what?  Courts and lawyer generally don't do anything about it.  How can they? It was before a divorce was filed (usually) and joint accounts can be drained by either spouse.  And the typical lawyer advice to the injured spouse is "we'll fix this when we get near the end of the divorce and divide up the marital assets and debts."  News Flash... .The financial deal gets done so fast this matter is often left out.

Forget any legal consequence, there isn't any.  This is more about his emotional perception.  Do you usually pay the bills from that account?  If so, then perhaps you can tell him you're using it to ensure bills get paid.  At most I would say you could return that 1/6 which was over the half of the account contents.  (Maybe say you've already spent or allocated the remainder for your necessities in New Town?  After all, he had mused or threatened to take all of it.)  If he's working and you're not then he can more easily replenish the account than you.

Is his threat to file for divorce more bluff and triggered overreaction than reality?  Likely but who knows for sure?  Note LnL wrote she would have done as you did, though I guess she wasn't trying to have a timeline of how things were to play out over the next several months.

[Radcliff]

Dig, I made several missteps, and they were scary, since I'd been conditioned so strongly to do whatever I needed to do to avoid a blowup.  A week or two weeks later they seemed less dire than the day of.  Get yourself through the first 48 hours, and I am hoping you'll feel less panicked about this.

He still has a lot of control -- he controls where his paycheck goes!  Of course, that may not be enough for him.

It's an open question whether giving the money back will help.  Do you think it will?  On the one hand, appeasement sometimes works temporarily.  On the other hand, giving up may fuel contempt for you which may fuel even more abusive behavior.

You said that your plan of long term alimony is out the window.  As others have said, you don't know that he will file.  But haven't you also said that you think that you need to get to 10 years before the divorce is final, not before he files?  Is there ambiguity on this?  I can't tell if you're forgetting in your worry about this event, or if you still haven't dug with your lawyer to see if you have to get to 10 years before he even files.

What are your latest thoughts about what to do with the money?

Don't let him knock you off your plan to get that paper done!

Hang in there   

WW

[GaGrl]

The ten-year mark is not the priority. Believe me, thousands of couples have divorced at the 9 year mark. Let that go, and focus on your current situation. You will be OK... .ten years down the road, this will be a memory.

[Dignity&Strength]

Hi gang,

I have an email in to my lawyer and his assistant. They’re tied up with a high profile capital murder case in my state at the moment. So... .I still don’t know if it’s the filing or finalizing that is the hinge pin for the 10 years and lifetime alimony. It’s a financial difference of rehabilitative alimony, (about $53,000) versus lifetime alimony, (about $753,000). That’s significant, considering there’s only 38 weeks until the date.

What the lawyer says will matter a huge deal. It may be true, if my husband files first, he could get temporary custody of S5, ASAP. That could mean months of S5 subjected to a person I believe has the capacity for familial incest, with nothing I could do to get anybody to believe me.

So priorities are... .grad paper, keep writing incidents and finding recordings for the lawyer, with all submitted by this time tomorrow night. Ready to act on Monday possibly. I think a good nights sleep will be a good idea.

Surprisingly, about the money in the accounts... .several years ago, after the first stay at the women’s shelter, I cleaned out the savings, in prep to file. Upon learning that I couldn’t protect S5 from sexual abuse and incest, IF I was right about what could happen, I backed off, and determined to put myself in place as S5’s protector, in person, to never leave him alone with any of them... .husband, in laws. And that’s done well. I’m gaining proof of the risky, neglectful parenting on his part. The 15 ft. oak tree, the eclipse with no glasses, etc.

Over the years, with lawyer consultations, and normal expenses, (that he wouldn’t pay for), the funds from that account got depleted. It’s been dwindling since 2014. Normal
Expenses generally is used second hand household items, like bedding, clothing and shoes for myself and S5, especially S5, since he’s growing.

I say all that to say, he’s accusing me of spending an exact figure of $11,700. It’s bizarre. But scary too, because I know money had to be spent, necessities bought, and I’m the one home to handle this. He has steadily upped the amount of his check going into his private account. I suspect, so that I can’t make ends meet each month without dipping a little into savings for emergencies. There’s always those. And he always makes them my fault, that there’s not money in checking to cover those. I don’t know what to do with that. I jump through hoops and do a lot of running to multiple groceries to make sure I get things as cheaply as possible. Yet, S5’s special needs mean organic, non gmo grass fed food. I belong to food Co ops and wholesale groups, online discount mail order, it’s dizzing what I do to save money. But yet it’s sill “my fault”.

That seems to be his golden ticket, the hook he has on me, is the money. There are records of where it went though... .like $500 last month for a veggie share at the local
Farm. It equals out to $25 worth of organic produce a week, for only $18 a week... .through thanksgiving. I couldn’t buy that at the grocery for that price, and considering all the salmonella outbreaks, I prefer the Farm.

Sorry, I rambled. I’ve got to get some rest!
Thanks everyone.
Dig.

[Radcliff]

Thanks for the update, and good luck on the grad paper! 

Yes, you know he's trying to keep you on edge with money, yet frustratingly even knowing that, it's hard not to spend a bunch of time thinking about it!  I don't think any outside person would ever take you to task for buying vegetables for S5.  Just track your expenses, and try not to worry about it.  It sounds like you've got a very good handle on where the money goes.

Have you read, Don't Alienate the Kids, by Bill Eddy, yet?  Now, while you've got some time at your parent's house, would be a good time to do it.  It is specifically about child custody matters in high conflict divorces.  He goes into detail about how the high conflict parent can get lawyers, counselors and other professionals spun up against the "reasonable" parent, best strategies for the "reasonable" parent, etc.  One of the points he makes is that extreme positions like going for 100% custody often lead to protracted legal battles, in which 100% custody can actually flop between battling parents.  He says that in many cases, including some cases of suspected abuse, going for majority custody can be more successful (the "reasonable" parent is seen as a balanced person, not an extremist).  You are in a tough spot with your concerns of suspected abuse in your husband's family.  What type of custody arrangement would you be going for?  Would you be requesting supervised visitation for your husband?  (I'm not suggesting that you do, just hoping to better understand your goals).

WW

[Dignity&Strength]

Thank you for helping me know where to go to learn.

I just bought it on Kindle to read. I have no idea what types of custody there is. I just don’t want S5 to be left unsupervised with him or his family, even if I have to be there myself. Somebody’s gotta be there, considering his risky parenting. I’d rather him come visit us, back in the house or somewhere neutral. But that’s probably not a type of custody.

I’d want sole medical decision making. He’d try to vaccinate him, and that’s rxtremely likely to cause vaccine injury with s5’s genetic makeup. There’s studies done on what he has , and a high connection to vaccine injury. He’d likely survive the measles more than the vaccine for it. That’s the biggest issue.  Other things like hand surgery, heart surgery, all can become fodder for conflict, with husband using S5 as a pawn. I shudder to think of it.

I’ll start reading!
Thanks!
Dig

[ForeverDad]

And of course you need to keep all these legal strategies and suggestions between yourself and your lawyer.  All this is personal and confidential that you don't share with him.  Parenting information, information regarding bills and such things is okay, nothing more.  Once separation and divorce are contemplated, then the prior typical marital advice to share information doesn't apply.  That includes any demands he makes or forced interrogations, etc.

[Radcliff]

Excellent, I'm glad to hear you'll be reading the book.  I'm sure you'll be glad you did.  It's been a big help to me.

Got it, I suspected that you were hoping for supervised visits.  The trick is that supervised visits are very tough to get.  I'm not saying don't go for it -- but work with your lawyer regarding what's realistic.  Without solid evidence of abuse, it might be very tough.  You might get some mileage with the risky parenting angle, since supervised visits are generally done if there's physical or abuse risk, but typically after a period of things going well, the supervision requirement can be lifted.  Supervision can also be extremely shaming for the person being supervised, which could lead to a more combative legal stance.  It is unlikely you'd be accepted as a supervisor, since you're a party to the conflict.  Supervisors can be professional and nonprofessional (in my county at least).  You have to pay the professional ones.  The nonprofessional ones can be friends.  It gets expensive for professionals, and it gets hard to lean on friends for supervision for more than a short period of time.

Sorry to be throwing so many cautions at you, but better to know the info now and have time to incorporate it in your planning.  Take anything Bill Eddy or your lawyer say over me!

WW

[Dignity&Strength]

Hi everyone,
I’ve beem reading up on the Bill Eddy books, they’re helpful, scary, but good.
I’ve been wondering... .what’s the “reasonable” parent appropriate arrangement to propose? There are some logistics issues for sure, compounded by scary possibilities of parenting behavior from him, extending to his closest friends and parents.
I’m wondering what any of you might come up with for suggestions?
Wentworth’s description of supervision does not sound realistic, long term, financially, and otherwise.

So the city we are living in, his parents are at least 3-4 hours away from us and mine are 16 (2 day drive). He has a good job there and it’s not transferable or feasible for that to be somewhere else. I haven’t worked since just before our wedding, back in 09.

1) Our house is a good sized mortgage. I could stay there and he could work out of the city his parents are in, that’s possoble, but less income.  He could stay with them and I could stay at the house. In a city alone, no grandparents, no support system. With a special needs kid who’d be better off home schooled due to his hearing loss. (Saw Pediatric audiology specialist last week)

2) I could come back home with my parents, send S5 to visit 16 hours away. I could stay at a campground or something, get a camper. S5 doesn’t need mommy to be 16 hours away, with the possibility of dangerous parenting from dad. Safety 16 hours away for me as a grown woman feels awful. Bill eddy speaks to this idea, of alienation, to avoid that with the kids... .but S5 KNOWS his daddy is dangerous. I don’t have to tell him. He knows it. “Daddy puts on his red Spiderman suit to play with you (himself), but puts on his black Spiderman suit to y’all to mommy”... .S5 was 3 years old when he came up with that.

Either way, if my main residence is in our current city or in my hometown, (16 hours away), his job is ON CALL. Out of town. He is home 48 hours once a week, that shifts forward one day every week, and even that is not predictable if those hours start late because he had not gotten back home yet. There are usually but not always, 3 trips back and forth out of town each week, with unpredictable down time in between. He may be home and awake 2 hours or 10. It’s not predictable.

I’m wondering how on earth we would have a reasonable visitation schedule? He does have 3 weeks of vacation each year, those change from year to year. He has to request weeks by November and they are awarded by seniority.

If seems unreasonable that I be made to live completely alone with no family to help. My family can’t move to me either. Yet it also seems unreasonable that my son not see his daddy, with such a distance between and such a crazy unpredictable work schedule.

Anybody know of what kinds of options there are? Or have I already exhausted them?

It may be a mute point, given the law in that state that says no parent sharing joint custody can live more than 59.9 miles from the original marital home. Geez.
Probably we’d both have to set up separate residences, with no family help nearby, and have to agree on a schedule to visit and stay with out of town family. I just don’t want S5 in my knlaws house alone, for any reason. But like a friend said, that case may have yo make itself... .something bad happen there before that visit is restricted.

I’m stumped for what to ask for.
Dig.

[kells76]

Hi Dignity&Strength, nice to meet you   I'm just now dropping in on your thread.

Good question:

I’m wondering how on earth we would have a reasonable visitation schedule? He does have 3 weeks of vacation each year, those change from year to year. He has to request weeks by November and they are awarded by seniority.

And you also mentioned that your son is

a special needs kid who’d be better off home schooled

I'm wondering if you might be in a better position right now for making "considerate" proposals than you think. It might depend on how flexible you're willing to be about holidays.

If Son is homeschooled (aside: I'm a homeschooling alum! yay homeschooling!), you might have some more flexibility in when he sees Dad than if he's in a school system. Of course, boilerplate parenting plan verbiage will probably say something like "the homeschool schedule will match the local school district schedule and no-school day calendar", but you don't necessarily have to propose sticking to boilerplate language. Parenting plan could say something like ":)ad will provide 72 hours notice to Mom of which of these weekdays he will be with son: Tuesdsay, Wednesday, or Thursday. Dad's parenting time will commence at 10am and end at 4pm (or whatever). Dad will pick up Son at 10am at X location and Mom will retrieve Son at 4pm at X location".

That might show you're willing to work with Dad's funky work schedule, but still maintain some really specific boundaries around it. I get that homeschooling isn't code for "no structure", but if you do go that route, you can use the inherent flexibility of HS to show that you support Son having Dad in his life (in this limited, structured way).

Ok, holidays: this could be another avenue to show some structured flexibility. Does your son's dad have set holidays off every year? Or is that also kinda up in the air?

Growing up, my dad had a job where he sometimes had to work all the major holidays. We got used to having Christmas early some years, and it was THE BEST as a kid! We were so excited when we "got" Christmas on the 22nd. I think for kids, the actual "day" of the holiday matters less than the doing of it. So, if Dad has Xmas off every year (for example), you could show a lot of "flexible structure" and have your PP say "Son will spend Dec 25 with Dad every year. Dad's PT will commence at 9am and end at 6pm, etc, etc, pickups, dropoffs, etc"

Aaaaand... .you always get to do Christmas first with son, on the 24th or something

DH and his xW worked out the PP that way too. The kids ALWAYS have the 25th with Mom, but they ALWAYS have the 24th with us. Not traditional, but hey, we always get Christmas first! Same with Halloween (always with Mom) and 4th of July (always with Mom, but DH gets 1st pick of either the 3rd or 5th). DH was able to let go of needing to have holidays on specific dates, in order to get Mom to agree to an actual PP.

These ideas might be predicated on you staying in your current city. If Dad's parents are ~2 hours away, and Dad has 1 day a week PT at their place, meeting in the middle might be a lot of driving, but potentially doable?

There's also Skype that you could potentially build into a PP. "Both parents may exercise up to X hours of Skype with Son during the other parent's PT (or "per week" or something), with 24 hours notice, during the hours of 9am and 5pm. Dad receives an additional Y hours of Skype with Son either on Saturday or on Sunday between A to B, with Z hours notice"

You're in a tricky situation -- how do you you safely support your son's relationship with his dad, without putting Son in an unsafe position or shutting out Dad? Hope some of these ideas are helpful food for thought. Remember you don't have to stick to boilerplate or traditional PPs if they don't work for your son's safety (i.e. "every other weekend and 6 straight weeks in the summer" is probably not a good fit). Remember you can think outside the box (could be really flexible about offering set holidays with great limits). And you can even tailor limits around what you know of Dad's unpredictable work schedule (PP including language about "with 72 hours notice, after that it's at Mom's discretion" etc).

Let us know if you want some more ideas or brainstorming... .I think you're working hard to do the right thing, and we'll be here for you.

kells76

[livednlearned]

Whatever you want, ask for more. That will give you some room to let him "win" his way back to what was acceptable to you all along.

Maybe propose that you move to new state because family and education situation is better, more stable. In my state, there are 9 criteria by which a family court permits an out-of-state move. Having family in another state, a good school system, health services for a child, better job prospects -- those all count. The fact you could move and have flexibility to travel half way back or all the way, may sweeten the pot.

Talk to your L, of course, but know that you can ask for what you think is best, tack some stuff on there that you are willing to give away, and add lots of flexibility to show you want your child to have a healthy relationship with his dad.

For what it's worth, I found that whenever I placed responsibility on my ex to do something with or for our son, he rarely if ever did it. I don't know why, but on this board, BPD fathers/exes seem to be less inclined to go the extra mile, altho there are of course exceptions. If you set up your custodial order so that your ex has to meet you halfway, it's quite possible he will fail to do so and then blame you for it. Which is fine, because you didn't want your son to go with him anyway 

Another option is to create a graduated plan. Say that S5 needs therapies in your home state (I think you mentioned this earlier), and that he will be in much better health in x years, and that dad should come to home state to attend these therapies during his time off. Maybe you offer to pay for therapies, and dad pays transportation. Then, in 2 years when S5 is making progress, you suggest making additional visits to dad's state pending his health.

Maybe something like that?

Also, bit of a side note, but there is a national program called Kidpower that's apparently geared toward family-based molestation, instead of the stranger danger education that many kids get in school.

[Dignity&Strength]

Thank you, LNL, Kells76,
You both have given me wonderful ideas, somethings to keep in mind. At the very least, I can sort of see, it’s not completely impossible. That’s a start.

I have shifted gears, or switched pots to stir on the stove, in this situation.

I spent a good deal of time today, about 4 hours, completing the MOSAIC domestic violence threat assessment. It’s something I began last fall, but didn’t finish.

My husband called last night, strangely nice, as if nothing had happened, as if he hadn’t spent the last few days fussing at me. The reason for his call, I gathered, was he wanted to know what day I was coming back to our house. I told him which day I planned on leaving.

It occurred to me to check our phone logs last night. I thought, why does he want to know which day, it’s a half a month away? I thought, if he called his dad right after me, it may be a sign his dad is working on calls to lawyers for him. But no. The next call right after me wasn’t to his dad, it was to his evil buddy. The one who lives in a city I must drive through between my parents house and ours.

Here’s the clincher, the concern. This buddy mailed a package to the house that had a veiled threat to my life. In the form of a souvenir item. Bizarre. It was a bandana with symbols about violence and danger. He wrote across the top of the package, in red permanent marker, I know how this will be used. He mailed this last September maybe?

So, I’ve been careful, to never ever leave a trail, with credit cards or anything while
I’m making this trip. I always stay somewhere unexpected to him, and never tell him the true city I’m in for the night stay over in the middle. Just to prevent his buddy from coming to find me. Paranoid, huh? I feel safer that way, given the souvenir threat. The symbols said,”target, easy mark” and “man with a gun”. (Hobo symbol bandana)

Anyway, the very next call in the log, after he wanted to know what day I was traveling, was to this buddy.

So... .I completed The Mosaic threat assessment today. It’s extensive, thorough. And the history of events with our marrriage, when put into this assessment show, my husband is a significant danger.

My goal is to have all of this, as much as possible to my attorney by Monday. I’m hoping theres a way he can get a judge to let S5 and I stay here, because of the danger. That’s probably only a temporary fix though.

I need to get a jump on my own psychiatric evaluation, while I can choose someone and have access to funds to do it. Because this sounds like I am paranoid, I realize. But there is evidence, tangible and in photos, that show I have reason.

Mosaic threat assessment... .anybody familiar with that? Good or bad experience?
Dig

[Radcliff]

Dig,

I took MOSAIC.  I found that just taking it was an educational experience.  The questions they asked taught me a lot.  What was your score?

No, I don't think you're being overcautious about your travel plans and hiding your stopover location.  You don't have to *know* his buddy's going to do something.  Just the risk is enough to be cautious.  For you, that kind of caution is a good idea just like a seat belt is a good idea.

Regarding moving out of state, are you sure that 59.9 miles is a hard limit?  In many (most?) states if a parent wants to move away it triggers a judicial review if the other parent objects.  There's typically a list of criteria that judges use.  As crazy as it sounds, you might have a go at negotiating with your husband to see if you can get him to agree.  There are some great ideas on this thread.  I can imagine you putting together a pretty compelling proposal (at least to a judge's eyes) that includes the benefits of being with the grandparents, your need to live with them while you complete your training so you can support yourself, homeschooling, and your heroic efforts to be flexible and get your son to his dad around the train schedule.  As you are reading in Eddy's book, being seen as a parent who wants to support the other parent's parenting can be helpful.

It seems to me like living with your parents is so helpful to you and your son that it's worth being pretty dang creative to make it work for everyone and get it approved.  Try Googling "[your state] divorce moveaway rules".

WW

[Turkish]

Do you still have that package? That's a clear threat and possibly illegal.  

MOSAIC was developed by Gavin de Becker and his firm.  He's very credible.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavin_de_Becker

We recommend his book The Gift Of Fear here.

I read it a number of years ago before I landed here.  The number one thing that stood out to me was his repeated mantra: trust your gut.  Though it's dated by now,  he goes over a few high profile mass shootings where witnesses upon initial interviews stated "he was a nice guy.  We didn't see this coming." Upon further investigation, it turns out that there were   . There are almost always red flags, but we are conditioned, unconsciously, to often ignore them.  He especially focuses upon telling women to trust their guts.

He also wrote a book for parents,  Protecting The Gift, which I thought was decent.