Introduction and Looking for help... Was I wrong to ask her to meet me halfway?

[Marc52055]

I am a psychologist. Listen to other people process their relationships for a living, but seem to have lost all perspective when it comes to my own interpersonal relationship. Now I feel like I can't trust my own judgment (so any advice would be really appreciated). 

Quick background. Divorced 10 years. Two grown adult children. Dated several women before meeting a woman that I love very much (and have asked to marry). She is widowed and has two middle school children (11 and 13). Been together for 18 months. Our relationship has had rocky moments and in November 2017, we took a 6-week break.

We have been fighting for several months.  In March, my girlfriend accused me of being deceptive, cruel and psychologically abusive.

I used to sleep over her house last summer, but since the fall, she no longer feels comfortable with me staying over. Says that it creates distress for her daughter. Been trying my best to engage and cultivate positive interactions with her kids. Took everyone on vacation last summer. Take her son skiing, out to eat at least a dozen time, to hockey practices. Every night I eat over, her daughter makes me a special dessert. I love being with her children, and while disappointed that I can not stay over anymore, I am respectful of her decision (and hope that at some point, we will marry and have our own house together).

I gave her my grandmother's engagement ring and she says she wants to marry me, although has never said this publically and does not consider herself engaged to me (and never wears the ring). I gave her the ring because I wanted her to know I was serious, am very much in love and want to share the rest of my life with her.

The problem is that she often gets upset with me. She has a quick temper. She is very passionate and intense, which I love, but she also quickly flies into a rage.  Just to give you a sense of our arguments, this is from a few months ago. 

In March, it was my birthday. She made a lovely meal and told me that she wanted to get me a Pelton bike (which cost $2,000). That is a very generous gift, and really sweet, but I really was not comfortable with her spending so much money on me. Suggested that maybe when we get a house together, she can buy the bike. Nothing much else was said about the bike.

Fast forward two weeks, when the ___ really hit the fan. I have been going car shopping with her for the past few weekends. Her car is about to die and last weekend the starter finally gave out. It was either put $800 into a 10-year-old car or buy something new.

I send her the link to Consumer reports and tried to help narrow down the options (she gets easily overwhelmed and with her two kids, hardly has time for anything).

Finally, it was between a used 2016 CRV and a new 2018 CRV. She has to sleep on it overnight. The price difference between the two cars is about $6000. Without getting into to much detail, money is not an issue, as her late husband had a generous life insurance policy. She can easily afford either car. And is paying cash.

During the day, I texted her and suggested that if she was worried about money, I would give her $1,000 and not to get me the bicycle, saving 3,000 (and splitting the difference between 2016 and new CRV). She said no.

After work, I met her at the dealer. She has been there with her kids for over an hour trying to decide between the two cars. She does not want me to drive her home (because she would be without a car and does not want me sleeping over). Her old car will not start, so she feels like she has to make a decision about which car to buy. We test drive. We talk. She cannot decide. She is extremely frugal. I again offer the 3,000 arrangement. Eventually, she says yes to the new car and asks if I am sure. She tells the salesman that she wants the new car. Spends another 30 minutes thinking about colors. Now her kids are getting hungry, it is 730 and the dealer is closing at 8. She says, "are you sure you can give me 3,000?" Suprised, I was giving her 1,000, but she was not going to buy me that bike. She becomes super upset.

Clearly, there has been a huge misunderstanding. Now, she wants the 2016 car. I apologize. And then I offer to just give her the $3,000, but she says no. She buys the 2016 car. But she is really angry with me. She leaves the dealership and I drive home alone.

she texts me

What you did last night was really unbelievable to me You had mentioned the bike thing and I told you NO. That is a gift.

When we were negotiating you told me you would split the difference with me. You said straight out that you would give me $3000 toward the vehicle

And made that guy run around getting all those vehicles Only to do a complete 180 and tell me you’ll give me a $1000?

I don’t even know what to call what you did It was completely and utterly disrespectful on so many levels I don’t care about the money. What you did was psychological abuse. You put me in a position in front of that guy and in front of my kids that was totally uncalled for. It disgusts me. Unbelievable that you did that to me in front of the kids. They saw it. They heard it

It was completely disrespectful I don’t know what you were thinking You crossed the line with that. That was totally deceptive


I apologized. I was really upset that this misunderstanding caused so much damage. For the record, I was not intentionally trying to deceive or mislead her. Was just trying to help. But here the thing. She thinks I was trying to deceive her. She feels like I psychologically abused her. If a patient told me this story, I would not think it was psychological abuse. But I am biased?

We had another dozen fights since that point. About facebook, putting my children above her, not spending enough time together.  Just about every week there is a fight.  We teeter to the edge of breakup and then find a way to stay together.  Our sex life is incredible.  But I have not seen her for over a week.  I still love her very much.  She struggling with health issues.  This Friday, she will find out if she has Lupus or MS.  I want to go to the appointment with her, but she does not want me there.

She writes,

Right now I feel very abandoned by you. I have expressed to you in the past few weeks times that I have really needed you and you haven’t been there  for me. It has left me feeling very unsettled in our relationship. Letting you come to my doctor apt and then having you do this to me again? No. I only have myself to depend on. And I’m the only one who is going to be there for me. I’m not going to go through the week having minimal contact with you and then have you come to my doctor apt. I want to feel close to you. But with how things have been the last few weeks, I don’t. I feel cast aside by you.
I hope we can get through this. We can’t seem to communicate. I feel like you only want to support me if I’m doing what you want me to do. It’s sad and it hurts when you do what you did to me on the phone last night. That’s not love.



Yesterday, I wrote to her.  Good morning
I really miss you. I really want to have a good week with you.  I’m pledging to only say kind words, think positively about you and try to understand things from your perspective. I love you very much.

"No one falls in love by choice, it is by chance. No one stays in love by chance, it is by work. And no one falls out of love by chance, it is by choice." 

I want to work with you on making a happy life, one day at a time.  Starting today

She writes back Good morning. I appreciate that. I will do my best as well. I think there needs to be more effort in communicating since we don’t seem able to see each other.

But my efforts at trying to engage in positive communication are met with silence.  I was at a ball game with my kids on Sunday but checked in with her often.  I asked if I could call her after her daughter went to bed.   She said yes, but when I called, she never picked up the phone.  I texted her good night, and then she responded. 

Me
   Tried to call again. Sorry you are not available. Good night

Her
   Ok. Good night

Me
   Why won’t you pick up?
   I want to have a positive week with you. I can’t do it myself. I’m going to need you to meet me halfway.  If you
        can’t do that, tell me now. 

I don't hear anything for about a half hour. So I text

   Message revived
   When you’re ready to meet me halfway, let me know. Until then, I give up



I was up most of the night thinking about this.  I don't understand why on the day she starts with encouraging me to make more effort around communicating, she goes back to the silent treatment.  And can't even acknowledge meeting me halfway to try to improve things.

I love her.  I want things to work.   Was I wrong to ask her to meet me half way?  Was I wrong to give up until she ready to meet me halfway? 

I have not heard back from her since writing that. 

Thank you for reading my post.  Any help would be appreciated. 

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[zachira]

In response to your question: "Was I wrong to ask her to meet me halfway? ": What I hear is that there is endless conflict in your relationship, and it seems that no matter what you do, you will continue to be fighting all the time. You are asking us for advice which I find difficult to give because there are so many challenging relational dynamics, that I cannot separate your feelings from hers. I think there is some real meaningful work to do, perhaps with a therapist, to establish your feelings and values more firmly, and then perhaps you can decide how to proceed. As far as understanding her feelings, I do not know if she really understands how she feels, so I don't know if she can effectively communicate to you what she feels and wants. There are many people on this Board who have or have had relationship challenges similar to yours. Let us know how you are doing and how we can help.

[Marc52055]

In response to your question: "Was I wrong to ask her to meet me halfway? ": What I hear is that there is endless conflict in your relationship, and it seems that no matter what you do, you will continue to be fighting all the time. You are asking us for advice which I find difficult to give because there are so many challenging relational dynamics, that I cannot separate your feelings from hers. I think there is some real meaningful work to do, perhaps with a therapist, to establish your feelings and values more firmly, and then perhaps you can decide how to proceed. As far as understanding her feelings, I do not know if she really understands how she feels, so I don't know if she can effectively communicate to you what she feels and wants. There are many people on this Board who have or have had relationship challenges similar to yours. Let us know how you are doing and how we can help.

Thank you for your feedback.   I feel guilty, especially this week, as she finds out exactly what her health problems might be. But as I said earlier, she does not want me to go with her to the appointment. I have not heard back from her in 12 hours. Do I just stay silent and wait?  Do I break the silence? 

[pearlsw]

Hi Marc5205,



Sorry you are dealing with these struggles, but glad to have you joined us here! I can see you care very much for your partner and want things to improve, and are willing to do your part.

I’m going to jump right in…

Would you like to elaborate more on what distress it caused the daughter to have you staying over at the house? Is that going to continue to be a major barrier in the relationship going forward?

Do you think turning down the expensive gift, despite you saying that she could do that later when you lived together, and having given her a precious engagement ring, made her feel rejected, embarrassed, or shamed in some way? I know you can see all the things you did that express a counter notion to that, but she may not have read it that way if she has so much trouble regulating her emotions. What do you think?

Is it possible she didn’t quite understand your rationale on the car prices? Even as I read it I have to do a bit of mental gymnastics to get your reasoning on this. She may have heard the words but not truly taken it to heart. You brought two things together that for her were separate. You meant well, but it likely was not well communicated somehow. She didn’t get it, that seems clear.  What made you think she was worried about money in this case?

“During the day, I texted her and suggested that if she was worried about money, I would give her $1,000 and not to get me the bicycle, saving 3,000 (and splitting the difference between 2016 and new CRV). She said no.”

Also, just because you may think she has money, has nothing to do, really, with how she feels about spending her own money, ya know? She could be sitting on a pile of cash, but if spending money makes her feel anxious or insecure nevertheless, that could be  a bit invalidating. It is good not to assume how she feels about it I think. Are you perhaps projecting how you are feeling about it? Just listen to her and follow her lead as this is her decision, no matter how her approach may seem to you I’d suggest. Well, that was before things hit the fan…

I also hear you editorializing on the appropriate amount of time it should take her to make a decision about buying a car. It’s not about you though. She can take all day if she wants, or go as many times as she wants, ya know? If the kids are hungry she can get them free snacks from the dealer, or buy something from the vending machine, or drive to the nearest fast food joint, or listen to them cry a bit, but your assessment of how long it should take probably contributed to the stress for her. I’m a non and it would have bothered me to be pushed to hurry a major purchase if I didn’t ask for that “assistance.”

This may very well have humiliated her, not your intention, but having this happen in front of someone else is pretty awkward in a high pressure situation. It is not easy to be a woman at a car dealership. We get taken advantage of at much higher rates than men do, here and in a lot of areas of our lives. It takes a toll on us. It may have exposed some insecurities for her.

Also, man, she is about to find out whether or not she is going to have an illness that is going to be with her the rest of her life. If she needs something from you, and you are serious about her, give her this one. The illness might be part of adding to what may be her typical mood swings. Put yourself in her shoes. She may have an illness she will have to manage for the rest of her life, think of the psychological toll of that. That’s huge and scary and unpredictable. Huge. I’d be grouchy and unhappy too I’d imagine, and need time to sort it out. She may need even more time, again, don’t decide that for her.

Is there a way back from all of this, to break this pattern of fighting? Perhaps. You certainly have the skills and the desire to put in serious effort! It does sound like you will have to be ready to do some focused self work and be ready to take on this caregiver role, while dropping notions that may be limiting you, but that’s just my two cents!

Have you had a chance to check out the tools/skills offered here on the site?

with compassion, pearl.

[zachira]

It is probably a no win situation to break the silence, because she may look for a conflict no matter what. She will likely feel like you don't care if you do not contact her. On the other hand, if you wait then you are hopefully giving her time to process her feelings. If she does contact you, I would ask her specifically what she wants from you, though she may not be able to tell you, as I am not sure she knows. What do you hope to achieve by contacting her? Is it possible that you want to reduce your anxiety over not knowing what is going on? It might help to sit with the anxiety and see what comes up for you.

[pearlsw]

Hi Marc5205,

I'd actually take a different tack on this and approach her. My female instincts tell me she is pushing you away, but wants you to come closer and actually support her. This is not a time to let her feel abandoned if you can avoid it.

Just be careful in what you say.

While our partners can certainly be extremely difficult, I’ve found it is not impossible to reach them.

warmly, pearl.

[pearlsw]

I'm sure these tools will be familiar:

SET

Empathy

Validation

[Marc52055]

Hi Marc5205,

Is there a way back from all of this, to break this pattern of fighting? Perhaps. You certainly have the skills and the desire to put in serious effort! It does sound like you will have to be ready to do some focused self work and be ready to take on this caregiver role, while dropping notions that may be limiting you, but that’s just my two cents!

Have you had a chance to check out the tools/skills offered here on the site?

with compassion, pearl.

Thank you Pearl for your helpful and insightful feedback.  My girlfriend lost her husband in Dec 2015.  We started dating about a year later, but clearly its been very difficult for her children (especially her daughter to cope and adjust).  I used to stay over 2-3 times a week and spend much of the weekends there.  While there, I could help with the yardwork, go shopping, watch her kids and spend the evenings with her.  That all stopped in October.  My gf feels guilty about "putting (her) needs first."  I get along well with her daughter, but all things being equal, her daughter rather be with her mother alone.  Its been explained that I cause distress.  And this makes it hard for us to plan a future together.  Because we rarely see each other, it stressful trying to arrange time.  She no longer wants me to come over for dinner either.   She says that she loves me and wants to grow old with me (and that I have to just be patient and accept this).  

So, do its been 12 hours since I said, I give up.  Only silence on her end.  :)o I break the silence?  What should I say?

[pearlsw]

Given your history, she may have taken “I give up” to mean “It’s over” which is basically you abandoning her. Not what message you want this week especially I’m sure.

Man, I walked into a tough relationship myself with someone with kids, so I am not talking from a high horse here, but you really gotta see how much she and her kids have gone through.

Losing a dad is a big thing, a new guy dating mom is a big thing. (You know this. You may have a future, but you do have to be patient…And with her having kids, and what she’s said here, she’s gonna put them first. As someone with kids yourself I am sure it is easy for you to relate to what she must juggle.

Others may have other ideas but in this case I’d get right back to her and start trying to repair. I’m no magician here, and this may not be BPD appropriate, others can correct us, but I just would try to make a repair. Especially after what you said, but didn’t mean.

You might experiment with phrases typical to SET. (and from those site pages)

“I care about you,” or “I am worried about how you are feeling.” “I see you are angry, and I understand how you can get mad at me.” And one from me: “I’m here for you”.

Probably best to keep it short, loving, kind and direct.

What do you think would show her you care?

take care, pearl.

[pearlsw]

But my efforts at trying to engage in positive communication are met with silence.  I was at a ball game with my kids on Sunday but checked in with her often.  I asked if I could call her after her daughter went to bed.   She said yes, but when I called, she never picked up the phone.  I texted her good night, and then she responded. 

Me
   Tried to call again. Sorry you are not available. Good night

Her
   Ok. Good night

Me
   Why won’t you pick up?
   I want to have a positive week with you. I can’t do it myself. I’m going to need you to meet me halfway.  If you
        can’t do that, tell me now. 

I don't hear anything for about a half hour. So I text

   Message revived
   When you’re ready to meet me halfway, let me know. Until then, I give up

As well intentioned as you are, and as much as you want to ask her to meet your needs here, this can also be seen as a bit pushy and demanding from my armchair.

The “sorry” is a bit insulting.

The middle part is “do what I want now.”

The last part is “do what I want or else I’m abandoning you.”

Communication is hard! Who amongst hasn’t grasped to find the right words that balance our needs with others?

Do I have better words to offer?  I’m working on this kind of thing too!

Hopefully some of our very skilled members will come along and give us a much needed assist!

I don't think I'd stake so much on her not meeting you half way for one day. It was a nice idea, it didn't work that day. On another day it might work better.

[Marc52055]

Given your history, she may have taken “I give up” to mean “It’s over” which is basically you abandoning her. Not what message you want this week especially I’m sure.

Man, I walked into a tough relationship myself with someone with kids, so I am not talking from a high horse here, but you really gotta see how much she and her kids have gone through.

Losing a dad is a big thing, a new guy dating mom is a big thing. (You know this. You may have a future, but you do have to be patient…And with her having kids, and what she’s said here, she’s gonna put them first. As someone with kids yourself I am sure it is easy for you to relate to what she must juggle.

Others may have other ideas but in this case I’d get right back to her and start trying to repair. I’m no magician here, and this may not be BPD appropriate, others can correct us, but I just would try to make a repair. Especially after what you said, but didn’t mean.

You might experiment with phrases typical to SET. (and from those site pages)

“I care about you,” or “I am worried about how you are feeling.” “I see you are angry, and I understand how you can get mad at me.” And one from me: “I’m here for you”.

Probably best to keep it short, loving, kind and direct.

What do you think would show her you care?

take care, pearl.

Thank Pearl.  I just wrote this to her... .

I need to clarify what I wrote.  And I need to aplogize.  I am never going to give up on us.  I said that in anger, and meant giving up for the night trying to work on positive communicate with you.   I know that I have done things that really upset you and made you feel that I don’t care and am not there for you.  I know you are sad and frustrated. I do not want to fight or cause you stress.  I want both of us to try to improve things, but maybe that too much to ask of you.  I hope you can meet me halfway, but understand if that is not something you want or can do right now.  If you rather not speak to me, I understand.  If you rather I gave you some space, I understand.  Again, I am very sorry.  I am thinking about you (always).

Not sure if I will hear back today, but I feel better reaching out and letter her know I am sorry.  Thank you again for your help and wisdom. 

[pearlsw]

This might be a good time to start with the basics! 

And this might be a tall order, but toss all you thought you knew and read on this site with fresh eyes…

The Do’s and Don’ts of a BPD Relationship

This part was not necessary in my book: "I want both of us to try to improve things, but maybe that too much to ask of you. "

This could be taken as you seeing her as lesser or inadequate compared to you - and could indicate anger. Whether it is too much to ask of her is up to her, it's not a good idea to toss it in her face like this in my opinion.

Let's take a step back. Maybe she is doing her best right now, this week. You made a mistake, she made a mistake, but just because you aren't getting what you want does not necessarily mean she's not also trying to improve things.

Now let me ask you a really big question... .What if she cannot give you the 50/50 partnership you crave? What if you must be an emotional caregiver or emotional leader in the relationship? Can you handle possibly not getting all of your needs met? What needs is she not meeting of yours right now?

wishing you peace, pearl.

[Marc52055]

This might be a good time to start with the basics! 

And this might be a tall order, but toss all you thought you knew and read on this site with fresh eyes…

The Do’s and Don’ts of a BPD Relationship

This part was not necessary in my book: "I want both of us to try to improve things, but maybe that too much to ask of you. "

This could be taken as you seeing her as lesser or inadequate compared to you - and could indicate anger. Whether it is too much to ask of her is up to her, it's not a good idea to toss it in her face like this in my opinion.

Let's take a step back. Maybe she is doing her best right now, this week. You made a mistake, she made a mistake, but just because you aren't getting what you want does not necessarily mean she's not also trying to improve things.

Now let me ask you a really big question... .What if she cannot give you the 50/50 partnership you crave? What if you must be an emotional caregiver or emotional leader in the relationship? Can you handle possibly not getting all of your needs met? What needs is she not meeting of yours right now?

wishing you peace, pearl.

Thanks Pearl.  I will keep this in mind.  I don't expect to hear from her anytime soon, but I did the best I could. 

[pearlsw]

Hi Marc2505,

Yes! I can see you care so much! I hope she replies and things improve soon!

Please keep us posted.

take care, pearl.

[Radcliff]

Hello!  Welcome to bpdfamily!  It sounds like you have a tough situation.  I'm sorry to hear that, but am glad you've found us.  There's a lot to learn here that will help you improve things.

I agree with pearlsw on this one, to not worry about finessing this and to just dive in and apologize for not being sensitive enough.  You have plenty to be frustrated about, believe me, I've been there.  But there's enough you could do better to justify giving an apology -- it doesn't make you a pushover.  She needs your support right now.  We can work with you over time to help with the things that are hard about the situation for you.

Two things struck me as opportunities for improvement on your end... .

The first is the car negotiation.  Sorry to mix metaphors, but you stuck your head in a noose by stepping into her sandbox.  She owns the car decision.  She is a grown woman, and if you treat her like a child, she's going to act like one and never develop the skills to function on her own.  Forgetting BPD, even in a relationship with a "non," the amount you got involved in trying to help her be at ease with her financial decision was pegging the "caretaker" meter and might go awry with a "non" woman as well.  Man helping woman at car dealership is a classic opportunity to overstep.  You need to understand what kind of support she wants, and also be willing to hold your boundaries if she asks for more than you think you can pull off.  How might you have supported her without taking away her ownership of the decisions and her need to self soothe?  Simply standing next to her can be a huge support.  I've been at a dealership trying to complete a transaction close to closing time that was taking forever.  It's miserable.  Giving her choices to reduce stress, like offering to take her back the next day so she can sleep on it more and there's more time might help.  Moral support, indirectly relieving stress, those are good.  Getting involved in the decision -- that's asking for trouble.

The second thing I noticed is the texting.  One of the first skills a "non" has to learn is not to Justify, Argue, Defend, or Explain (JADE).  Take a look at the link.  It makes a BIG difference to get good at this.  Avoiding JADE is the fastest route to improvement you can take.  Start today!   Text is also a terrible way to handle emotional conversations.  Just ban it as a problem solving tool.  Call her or even better talk face-to-face.  If she edges into emotional territory on text, validate her feelings and lovingly redirect towards phone or in person.  And do not ever JADE over text.  That's a double foul and no good can come of it.

The beauty of both of the above opportunities is that they are entirely within your control, and will help a lot.  You don't have to count on her cooperation to make these improvements.

WW

[Skip]

Hi Marc,

I hope you will take some time and work with us here on an episode by episode basis... .I think it will help to get fresh and independent eyes on this.

I agree with zachira that there are a lot of moving parts influencing this, not the least of which is her recently departed husband, and I agree with pearlsw on how your words are loaded.

Your gf says you are "being deceptive, cruel and psychologically abusive." Those words don't help, I'm sure. ":)eceptive, cruel and psychologically abusive" are about your intent (which she could be wrong) and about her judgement.

From reading you brief posts, I may have a feel for what she is reacting to. I get the sense that you are over-pursuing her. Maybe to the point of boundary busting and clinginess. That's not a comforting word, but it probably easier to grasp than "being deceptive, cruel and psychologically abusive."   

The text message exchange is over-pursuing her.
"Tried to call again. Sorry you are not available. Good night
"Ok. Good night"  
Next time, leave it at that. She didn't want to talk. Frustrating, but we're men and we need to accept that women want this freedom to say no.
"Was I wrong to ask her to meet me halfway?"
In the context of the text exchange yes. It was not the time or place to express this.

The gift bike is over pursuing her.
"I really was not comfortable with her spending so much money on me. Suggested that maybe when we get a house together, she can buy the bike."
It's important to let her decide what she can afford to give you. When you rejected it, that would be confusing to many. When you linked it to her moving in with you... .that was  over pursuing.

The dinners are over pursuing her.
Every night was probably just too much

So can you see why she might be hesitant about the doctors office appointment?

Hard stuff and I am just speculating based on a few brief comments or yours.

That said, if this is mostly about getting out over your skis, it sounds like there is still time to fix it.

Can you explain more about the ring? Did you propose? Had she expressed a readiness for engagement beforehand? Had you talked about that specific ring (as opposed to buying her one)? Is she "uber excited" about marrying you, or is she tentative?

Skip

PS. The car dealership was just a misunderstanding. From her side, if you turned down the bike as being too expensive but considered the $2,000 to be to now be your money to spend... .she might have missed that in the heat of car shopping. It's a complicated thought.