Forgiveness - Am I misunderstanding?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

During most conflicts, my spouse will bring up any number of past offenses, both big and small and use them as what seems like ammunition.  She claims that she has forgiven me and is not angry about any of the offenses that she brings up.  She claims that I expect to her to forgive and forget.  I have never voiced that I expect that as I know that forgetting some things is not possible.  I do believe that you do have to move on from things, not to the point where they are forgotten but to the point where they are not a main focal point.  When I try to explain that, she tells me that I have not forgiven her, she clams up and just tells me to figure it out.  My assumption is that in order for her to claim that I have not forgiven here would require her to admit that she has done something that would 'require' forgiveness and she does not ever admit to doing anything wrong.  In the 18+ years that we have been married, there has been one occasion that I can recall that she has admitted that she was wrong.  Everything else is always justified as something that I deserve etc.  From what I have read, forgiveness or lack of forgiveness is a major issue with BPD and other PD.  How do I start to deal with this?  I know it is not healthy to continue to focus on the past, especially when it is over 10 years ago and much of it has been beaten to death with several marriage counselors.  I believe that I have done everything I can do to show true remorse/repentance etc and taken complete responsibility for any shortcomings, faults or hurts that I am responsible for but it seems like we are stuck in whatever this cycle is and I don't have any idea how to handle it... . 

[Woodchuck]

During most conflicts, my spouse will bring up any number of past offenses, both big and small and use them as what seems like ammunition.  She claims that she has forgiven me and is not angry about any of the offenses that she brings up.  She claims that I expect to her to forgive and forget.  I have never voiced that I expect that as I know that forgetting some things is not possible.  I do believe that you do have to move on from things, not to the point where they are forgotten but to the point where they are not a main focal point.  When I try to explain that, she tells me that I have not forgiven her, she clams up and just tells me to figure it out.  My assumption is that in order for her to claim that I have not forgiven here would require her to admit that she has done something that would 'require' forgiveness and she does not ever admit to doing anything wrong.  In the 18+ years that we have been married, there has been one occasion that I can recall that she has admitted that she was wrong.  Everything else is always justified as something that I deserve etc.  From what I have read, forgiveness or lack of forgiveness is a major issue with BPD and other PD.  How do I start to deal with this?  I know it is not healthy to continue to focus on the past, especially when it is over 10 years ago and much of it has been beaten to death with several marriage counselors.  I believe that I have done everything I can do to show true remorse/repentance etc and taken complete responsibility for any shortcomings, faults or hurts that I am responsible for but it seems like we are stuck in whatever this cycle is and I don't have any idea how to handle it... . 

[Local_Boogeyman]

Hey Woodchuck,

I know EXACTLY what you're going through, the same thing happens to me. I find myself on the receiving end of past offenses, some that are over decade old. It's frustrating because I never feel like I can get out from under past mistakes especially when they are brought to the surface (again) during and argument or as "exhibit A" for a misplaced thought or idea they have convinced themselves as being a fact.

I haven't found a way to handle it effectively besides trying to take some solace in the fact that I have accepted my mistakes as mine and performed my penance, as it were. I think, today is not the past and I'm not defined solely by my mistakes, even if my SO does. I don't know if that's helpful or healthy, but I'm working on it too.

Hang in there my friend.

[Cat Familiar]

It's a challenge when your spouse brings up historical issues and bludgeons you with them. I was well past college graduation when I heard, yet once again, my BPD mother haranguing my father because he didn't install a screen door which would have made her more comfortable the summer she was pregnant with me.

So Woodchuck your wife claims she's not angry about the historical "offense" yet she continues to use it to bolster her case against you. When you try and explain your understanding that moving on is different from "forgetting" then she thinks you still haven't forgiven her and that you have "issues" and of course, she doesn't want to believe that she's ever done something that needs forgiveness.

How you deal with this is you don't get into these sorts of conversations. Easier said than done.

Let's break this down a bit. When you try and explain your point of view, she perceives that as invalidation of her own, as well as criticism, and that you still are not remorseful enough. Read up on JADEing (Justifying Arguing Defending Explaining) Here's a great video on validation and how to avoid being invalidating. When you have an hour to watch, you will learn a lot: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=206132

Yes, it doesn't make sense in the "non" world where we can talk about issues from the past without an emotional charge (most times). With someone who has BPD, just wading into the discussion re-energizes the initial feelings, which she hasn't processed fully. Instead of dealing with those issues, she has filed it away in her mind, to be accessed easily and re-experienced as if it were freshly occurring.

My mother was like this. She could recall events 40-60 years later and experience them emotionally as if they had just happened the day before.

You may well have done everything you can to show remorse and responsibility, but keep in mind, for pwBPD Feelings = Facts.

[Buzz2]

Wow do I relate to this thread.  I, too, find it difficult to meet this challenge with equanimity.  I try to validate the emotions, but he keeps circling back hours/days/weeks/months/years later on the "facts" (I use that term loosely) to try and get more of a response.  I sometimes fall for it, I'm not going to lie.  There have been a couple of topics that I simply refuse to address anymore, especially the ones that are over a decade old.  Not validating, but I just couldn't do it anymore.

[Woodchuck]

It's a challenge when your spouse brings up historical issues and bludgeons you with them. I was well past college graduation when I heard, yet once again, my BPD mother haranguing my father because he didn't install a screen door which would have made her more comfortable the summer she was pregnant with me.

So Woodchuck your wife claims she's not angry about the historical "offense" yet she continues to use it to bolster her case against you. When you try and explain your understanding that moving on is different from "forgetting" then she thinks you still haven't forgiven her and that you have "issues" and of course, she doesn't want to believe that she's ever done something that needs forgiveness.

How you deal with this is you don't get into these sorts of conversations. Easier said than done.

Let's break this down a bit. When you try and explain your point of view, she perceives that as invalidation of her own, as well as criticism, and that you still are not remorseful enough. Read up on JADEing (Justifying Arguing Defending Explaining) Here's a great video on validation and how to avoid being invalidating. When you have an hour to watch, you will learn a lot: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=206132

Yes, it doesn't make sense in the "non" world where we can talk about issues from the past without an emotional charge (most times). With someone who has BPD, just wading into the discussion re-energizes the initial feelings, which she hasn't processed fully. Instead of dealing with those issues, she has filed it away in her mind, to be accessed easily and re-experienced as if it were freshly occurring.

My mother was like this. She could recall events 40-60 years later and experience them emotionally as if they had just happened the day before.

You may well have done everything you can to show remorse and responsibility, but keep in mind, for pwBPD Feelings = Facts.

Cat -
Thank you for the insight and video link.  I will have to watch it.  The way that you explained it is pretty much exactly what is happening.  One of the main offenses that comes up is the affair that I had about 12 years ago.  It is still as fresh as if it happened yesterday.  She now claims that I told her that I would not talk about it when the truth is that I approached her with the affair and we sought help with many counselors over the next several years.  With each new counselor we would go through all the details all over again.  There has never been an attitude or anything that should communicate refusing to talk about it.  I realize that being unfaithful is one of the most hurtful things that can be done and there is no excuse for it.  I have maintained that mentality and taken 100% responsibility from day one.  I never put any amount of blame on her.  Currently she states that I think I should just get off without receiving any consequences and that I think she should just forgive and forget.  My perception is that there is nothing that I could do or experience that would provide the 'justice' that she is looking for.  In a way, I believe that the last 12 years is in a way part of the consequences that I received.  There are many other much smaller offenses that are brought up on a continual basis.  I use the affair as an example as I do not want to minimize or marginalize things.  She has a very valid and deep wound but I believe that in order for it to heal, we have to stop picking at it but that has never happened and I doubt that it ever will.  The affair is where she likes to act like things went bad when in reality, things were very bad for years prior to that.  At the point of the affair, I believed that our marriage was over.  That is by no means a justification for being unfaithful, it is just to identify that there were major problems prior to that.  At the end of the day, I don't expect her to forget.  I can't forget myself and in a way I don't want to forget as it has prevented me from making that choice again.  But I do want to move on however possible and try to have a happy and healthy relationship.

[Cat Familiar]

Here's a good thread on JADEing and why it's a good habit to break.  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=139972.0

I must say that I struggled with it mightily since I'm such an Explainer. I always assume that I can explain my point of view and it will help things. Perhaps with "nons" but certainly it's counterproductive with pwBPD!

Woodchuck, you certainly aren't the first member here to have had an affair and you learned from it and have kept your marital vows for 12 years. But she's filed it away and uses it to punish you, despite having seen numerous therapists. What you're saying sounds like you're resigned that this may be a wound that she will never heal, but on the other hand, you are still hopeful that your relationship might return to a happy and healthy state.

Have you experienced any therapists who are knowledgeable about BPD and who use DBT therapy? That might be an avenue to pursue.

[Woodchuck]

Here's a good thread on JADEing and why it's a good habit to break.  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=68733.0

I must say that I struggled with it mightily since I'm such an Explainer. I always assume that I can explain my point of view and it will help things. Perhaps with "nons" but certainly it's counterproductive with pwBPD!

Woodchuck, you certainly aren't the first member here to have had an affair and you learned from it and have kept your marital vows for 12 years. But she's filed it away and uses it to punish you, despite having seen numerous therapists. What you're saying sounds like you're resigned that this may be a wound that she will never heal, but on the other hand, you are still hopeful that your relationship might return to a happy and healthy state.

Have you experienced any therapists who are knowledgeable about BPD and who use DBT therapy? That might be an avenue to pursue.

I believe I am an Explainer as well.  I have a bit of a tendency to try until I am blue in the face to explain myself.  This is usually not an issue with most people but it is extremely counterproductive at home.  I need to really work on the JADE aspect.

I have a hard time believing that she will heal.  We have seen probably close to a dozen different counselors.  Half of them were 'professional' and the others were either pastors/chaplains or counselors that were part of a church with limited training.  I doubt that any of them aside from one had any experience with BPD or DBT.  The common theme with all of the counselors is we left them as soon as they told her that she needed to work on or change something herself.  One counselor told her that it appeared that she had not forgiven me for anything, that resulted in her walking out of the session and never going back.  Another suggested that she try to put more effort into meeting my needs and again we never went back because, 'they didn't know what they were talking about'.

I have pretty much resigned to the 'fact' that the wound will never heal and I don't know that we have a real and genuine happy and healthy state to return to as most of our relationship has been tumultuous.  I would love for there to be a happy and healthy relationship for us, not just for us but for our kids as well.  I just don't know if that is possible.

[Cat Familiar]

Unfortunately it seems that for so many members doing marriage counseling, the BPD spouse is unwilling to look at their own participation in issues and like your wife, will walk out of a session or refuse to go back.

Some pwBPD will do individual counseling. Some won't.

[Woodchuck]

Unfortunately it seems that for so many members doing marriage counseling, the BPD spouse is unwilling to look at their own participation in issues and like your wife, will walk out of a session or refuse to go back.

Some pwBPD will do individual counseling. Some won't.

She has done some individual counseling as well.  She was part of an affair recovery group for at least a few years but it did not seem to really make any difference.  She has also attended an anger management class.  After that, we went to a marriage retreat and she thanked me for being patient and letting her work through her anger and pain.  That was about 8 years ago. 

[Woodchuck]

I came across the '5 Languages of Apology' book while reading through one of the posts here and bought the book.  I have only been able to get through the first few chapters but have a few questions.  Maybe the book will deal with the questions later on but I wanted to post them here as well.  The first few chapters talk about forgiveness and how you cannot truly forgive someone without them accepting and 'confessing' how they have wronged or hurt you.  If that is the case, that is the position that I am in now as any hurt that I communicate to my uBPDw is not accepted.  I hear either 'I am not sorry that I did x or said y, you deserve it for all the hurt you have caused me'.  What is a healthy way for me to deal with that kind of response?  I cannot imagine that it is healthy to just keep the hurts inside and not communicate them.  Along with that, I have tried to apologize for ways that I have wronged or hurt her.  I have taken the time to write everything down in detail and try to put myself in her shoes and express the best I can how I understand how she has been hurt.  I have also verbally apologized over and over and have backed up my apologies with action, meaning not repeating those offenses.  I understand that she does not have any requirement to forgive me.  She states that she has but at the same time uses the past as a weapon on a regular basis.  Am I wrong in thinking that there has not been true forgiveness if the past is brought up regularly?  It has gotten to the point where I want to respond by saying that 'I am not sorry' I guess as a way to retaliate and 'defend' against the past being thrown back at me.  I have refrained from doing this because for one, it would not really be true and two I know that it would not do anything to make anything better.  How do you deal with someone that states that they have forgiven but then continue to use the past as a weapon?  I would much rather hear that she doesn't forgive me and she is never going to let me live down any of my transgressions.  At least that would make sense and I would know where she stands.

[Cat Familiar]

So you’ve apologized from the bottom of your heart, made amends for how your behavior has been hurtful to her, put yourself in her shoes and tried to understand it from her perspective, changed your behavior so that you’d never again repeat the pattern... .and what you receive is a response saying that you deserve her unkind words and behavior.

Though she says she’s forgiven you, you don’t believe this is true because she uses the past as a weapon against you.

From what I’ve experienced with pwBPD, I believe they do forgive, but it’s in the moment, and then at another point, they remember an incident with the full fury they felt at the time when it occurred.

I heard my mother recollect events that happened 50 years prior with a full emotional response as if they happened yesterday.

Because they don’t process these things fully, they sort of file them away in a closet, to be pulled out on a whim to justify their feeling du jour.

Best to not bring up history, because they frequently will latch onto the memory like a dog with a bone. If you need to process something, far better to do it here, with a therapist or if you have a supportive friend.

[Woodchuck]

So you’ve apologized from the bottom of your heart, made amends for how your behavior has been hurtful to her, put yourself in her shoes and tried to understand it from her perspective, changed your behavior so that you’d never again repeat the pattern... .and what you receive is a response saying that you deserve her unkind words and behavior.

Though she says she’s forgiven you, you don’t believe this is true because she uses the past as a weapon against you.

From what I’ve experienced with pwBPD, I believe they do forgive, but it’s in the moment, and then at another point, they remember an incident with the full fury they felt at the time when it occurred.

I heard my mother recollect events that happened 50 years prior with a full emotional response as if they happened yesterday.

Because they don’t process these things fully, they sort of file them away in a closet, to be pulled out on a whim to justify their feeling du jour.

Best to not bring up history, because they frequently will latch onto the memory like a dog with a bone. If you need to process something, far better to do it here, with a therapist or if you have a supportive friend.

Cat -
That is a pretty accurate description of how things are typically.  I think I can see the temporary forgiveness that you talk about.  I guess I have a difficult time with being able to accept that as real forgiveness but am beginning to understand that is just kind of how things are. 
The other aspect is how to deal with hurt that my uBPDw inflicts.  I try not to bring up the past and I think I am really pretty good at it.  I would tend to bring it up if she starts bringing up past offenses but truthfully, as you well know, it does no good.  I guess the problem that I have is how to bring up/deal with hurts or offenses as they happen.  An example would be the hurt that I experienced when she told our pastor that she would be relieved if I died.  That was crushing to me.  Trying to explain the hurt to her only responded in her telling me that she was not sorry, that was how she felt and it was all my fault that she felt that way.  So not only is there a lack of apology but in effect, a doubling down on the offense/hurt and then blaming me for it.  This in turn makes me feel 'unsafe' bringing it up.  So do I just use an outside source to vent?