Learning how to set a boundary

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Hello all,
I need help with setting a specific boundary, and your opinion of it seems reasonable.
I’ve been travelling with my uBPDh to another city, 6 hrs away, to “support him” on a new business venture. To make things clear, it’s a business that was bought out by a public company. The same company hired my uBPDh and his partner to manage it for xyz salary per months as consultants starting January. My uBPDh has been dutifully keeping his end of the responsibility, all the while his partner has been frequently traveling for a long distance relationships, he is simultaneously going through a divorce from a third wife.
Side note, they also opened up another franchise of the same nature privately, invested their own resources, with two other people, who happened to be involved in the public company acquisition.
To make things complicated, my husband’s partner is on a punishing mode “because his ex didn’t like his mother”, she is basically getting 10% out of 50% of their assets. He is also extremly and deliberately slow on account receivable, which means he didn’t produce invoices for my husband and himself till the end of April. Finally, when I nudged my uBPDh for coming all the way to “work” for nothing, he insisted on the pay out. His partner went berserk, saying he wanted to use this money for investment, and his life is complicated as is (his divorce negotiations are coming up, he wants to declare as little income as possible, his strategy is “full disclosure” to show how “broke he really is”, NOT!
When my husband kept pressing under pressure from me, for salary for 5 months then, he supposedly agreed. Only to call him back the following week, saying that the investors/ prospective partners are delaying bringing in their 50% of the franchise. Due to pressures from the set up costs, they need to “invest their own money” (aka their salaries that I asked for). Yes, either my uBPDh husband is really delusional, or they are on to this together. Only a blind person would not see that because of the “legal scamming of his wife”, my husband’s partner is delaying the pay out till his divorce. WhAt does it mean for me and the children:
1. No summer camps
2.no travelling
3. Feeling financial constraints, which aren’t necessary, as we aren’t hiding anything, and have no need
4. In my eyes it defeats the purpose of going to “work” all together, as another member pointed out to me, the stakes are higher with questionable payout
Now to the question. I do t want to waste my time babysitting my uBPDh if he doesn’t get paid. If my kids aren’t garnishing or enjoying the fruits of his labour and my sacrifices, I’m going home and entertaining my children, period. Ultimatums don’t work on my uBPDh. Yet, I want to be clear on one thing, either he demands his partner to play fair, and our family gets what’s owed to us for the past 5 month, or I leave to do the best I can with two children stuck in the house for the summer. How do I present it to him?

[snowglobe]

Hello all,
I need help with setting a specific boundary, and your opinion of it seems reasonable.
I’ve been travelling with my uBPDh to another city, 6 hrs away, to “support him” on a new business venture. To make things clear, it’s a business that was bought out by a public company. The same company hired my uBPDh and his partner to manage it for xyz salary per months as consultants starting January. My uBPDh has been dutifully keeping his end of the responsibility, all the while his partner has been frequently traveling for a long distance relationships, he is simultaneously going through a divorce from a third wife.
Side note, they also opened up another franchise of the same nature privately, invested their own resources, with two other people, who happened to be involved in the public company acquisition.
To make things complicated, my husband’s partner is on a punishing mode “because his ex didn’t like his mother”, she is basically getting 10% out of 50% of their assets. He is also extremly and deliberately slow on account receivable, which means he didn’t produce invoices for my husband and himself till the end of April. Finally, when I nudged my uBPDh for coming all the way to “work” for nothing, he insisted on the pay out. His partner went berserk, saying he wanted to use this money for investment, and his life is complicated as is (his divorce negotiations are coming up, he wants to declare as little income as possible, his strategy is “full disclosure” to show how “broke he really is”, NOT!
When my husband kept pressing under pressure from me, for salary for 5 months then, he supposedly agreed. Only to call him back the following week, saying that the investors/ prospective partners are delaying bringing in their 50% of the franchise. Due to pressures from the set up costs, they need to “invest their own money” (aka their salaries that I asked for). Yes, either my uBPDh husband is really delusional, or they are on to this together. Only a blind person would not see that because of the “legal scamming of his wife”, my husband’s partner is delaying the pay out till his divorce. WhAt does it mean for me and the children:
1. No summer camps
2.no travelling
3. Feeling financial constraints, which aren’t necessary, as we aren’t hiding anything, and have no need
4. In my eyes it defeats the purpose of going to “work” all together, as another member pointed out to me, the stakes are higher with questionable payout
Now to the question. I do t want to waste my time babysitting my uBPDh if he doesn’t get paid. If my kids aren’t garnishing or enjoying the fruits of his labour and my sacrifices, I’m going home and entertaining my children, period. Ultimatums don’t work on my uBPDh. Yet, I want to be clear on one thing, either he demands his partner to play fair, and our family gets what’s owed to us for the past 5 month, or I leave to do the best I can with two children stuck in the house for the summer. How do I present it to him?

[snowglobe]

Slight clearification, the salary is coming in into their companies account. As long as it’s not withdrawn and paid out as salary it isn’t considered to be income. Hence my uBPDh partnwr’s reluctance at taking it out. Last I heard, he is turning in financials from another company he shares with my uBPDh during his Marriage to soon to be ex wife, to show that he is “limited on financial resources”, never mind he now has another company which is doing well.

[Notwendy]

To start with, boundaries are not about the other person but about what you wish to do according to your own values.

Boundaries do not control another person. They are only about what you would do in response to their behavior.

For example- a boundary on infidelity isn't about controlling the other person's decision to cheat or not. If a person decides to cheat or not, that is their own decision. It is about what your values are- what would you do if that person cheated. I.E. If my husband cheated I would insist on: a) divorce b) he has to break it off and go to counseling c) nothing, we have an open marriage. There is no right of wrong answer. A person chooses a, b, or c ( or something else) according to their own personal values.

We don't even have to discuss a boundary. Sometimes it is better not to. Sometimes we just act. For example once, my BPD mother started raging at me at her house.   I didn't say anything- I just left and went home. Boundary- I don't sit there and let her rage at me. She can rage or not, but the boundary is about my actions.


Your situation is complicated. We need to untangle it. First of all there are three people. Husband, partner, you. This is a drama triangle. Your H is playing victim to his partner. Your H is not standing up for himself. Then there is you- the potential victim of his not standing up for himself. The partner issues are leading the two of you. H is being co-dependent ( pwBPD can be co-dependent as well )with his partner, you are being co-dependent on your H by trying to rescue him and the money.

The best learning experience is natural consequences. Sometimes if we help too much, we get in the way of that. My H had a learning experience with a business partner who was taking financial advantage of him. I saw it, but when I said something, it became a triangle. My H didn't see it until I backed off and let him handle this business situation and he realized he lost a lot of money. Yes, it was our livelihood and we had to adjust, but the learning had to be his. I could not make him see it. Once he did see it though, he learned a lot- not to be naive to these things and he doesn't fall into this kind of thing now. For things to get better at his business, he had to learn this lesson.

Although it is your family's income, it is in the hands of your H and this partner. So long as you enable your H may not learn the hardest lesson which is- he is placing his finances in the hands of a questionable person. The best lesson for your H could be to learn what happens when he does this and yet, until you allow him to learn the consequences of his actions, he won't learn them

You are making your plans contingent on two unreliable people. That isn't a boundary. A boundary is doing what is in accordance with your values. One boundary might be " honey, the kids are home all summer. I want to spend this time with them". Don't see this as stuck in the house. You can have an awesome summer with little money. Picnics at the park, go to a lake for the day, hiking, swimming at a public pool ( or at a friends house if they have one), go to the library and get movies and books for free. Is there a children's museum? Your kids want you more than they want stuff, and they are not little forever. Make this summer count for them- for you.

If your husband has a fit, too bad. If this is your value system, it is about you, not him. It isn't blamed on him or his partner. It is you upholding your values. Do you think you need to be there for your kids?

[formflier]

Here is the thing... .

Stop pushing your husband to put in the invoices.

You put them in... for your husbands work.  if the partner wants to invest his money... that's his deal.

Hubby bills for his work... .or you bill for him.

You've mentioned on here this is YOUR business as well... with your husband... .so... take care of your business.

FF

[snowglobe]

To start with, boundaries are not about the other person but about what you wish to do according to your own values.

Boundaries do not control another person. They are only about what you would do in response to their behavior.

For example- a boundary on infidelity isn't about controlling the other person's decision to cheat or not. If a person decides to cheat or not, that is their own decision. It is about what your values are- what would you do if that person cheated. I.E. If my husband cheated I would insist on: a) divorce b) he has to break it off and go to counseling c) nothing, we have an open marriage. There is no right of wrong answer. A person chooses a, b, or c ( or something else) according to their own personal values.

We don't even have to discuss a boundary. Sometimes it is better not to. Sometimes we just act. For example once, my BPD mother started raging at me at her house.   I didn't say anything- I just left and went home. Boundary- I don't sit there and let her rage at me. She can rage or not, but the boundary is about my actions.


Your situation is complicated. We need to untangle it. First of all there are three people. Husband, partner, you. This is a drama triangle. Your H is playing victim to his partner. Your H is not standing up for himself. Then there is you- the potential victim of his not standing up for himself. The partner issues are leading the two of you. H is being co-dependent ( pwBPD can be co-dependent as well )with his partner, you are being co-dependent on your H by trying to rescue him and the money.

The best learning experience is natural consequences. Sometimes if we help too much, we get in the way of that. My H had a learning experience with a business partner who was taking financial advantage of him. I saw it, but when I said something, it became a triangle. My H didn't see it until I backed off and let him handle this business situation and he realized he lost a lot of money. Yes, it was our livelihood and we had to adjust, but the learning had to be his. I could not make him see it. Once he did see it though, he learned a lot- not to be naive to these things and he doesn't fall into this kind of thing now. For things to get better at his business, he had to learn this lesson.

Although it is your family's income, it is in the hands of your H and this partner. So long as you enable your H may not learn the hardest lesson which is- he is placing his finances in the hands of a questionable person. The best lesson for your H could be to learn what happens when he does this and yet, until you allow him to learn the consequences of his actions, he won't learn them

You are making your plans contingent on two unreliable people. That isn't a boundary. A boundary is doing what is in accordance with your values. One boundary might be " honey, the kids are home all summer. I want to spend this time with them". Don't see this as stuck in the house. You can have an awesome summer with little money. Picnics at the park, go to a lake for the day, hiking, swimming at a public pool ( or at a friends house if they have one), go to the library and get movies and books for free. Is there a children's museum? Your kids want you more than they want stuff, and they are not little forever. Make this summer count for them- for you.

If your husband has a fit, too bad. If this is your value system, it is about you, not him. It isn't blamed on him or his partner. It is you upholding your values. Do you think you need to be there for your kids?

Not Wendy, thank you so much for making it clear I’m a daylight for me. Yes, of course it’s a triangle, he doesn’t want to be “bad or ruin his relationships” with kids partner, who is abusing the legal system and makes him accomplice in his dirty business. He sends me to be the bad guy, while his partner is a prosecutor and I’m the rescuer. When I come to think of it, he develops these codependent relationships with everyone around him. He used to be codependent on his foo, he is codependent with me, he did it with his friends. It’s everywhere around us, while I try to remind him that the family is a priority. I see no other option but to leave both of them alone.

[snowglobe]

Hubby bills for his work... .or you bill for him.

You've mentioned on here this is YOUR business as well... with your husband... .so... take care of your business.

FF

Dear FF,
He already asked for his share of the salary, and as I explained in the previous post, got a yes... .but... .(because it doesn’t suit his partner)
When I say it’s our business, on paper, it’s only two of them. It’s ours because I researched, borrowed money from our mutual line of credit, helped him deal with logistics and installation in the early stages. I encouraged him when he wanted to quit, I feel I deserve a share in something I helped him to build. As NotWendy, it has become a triangle, so I’m gonna back out of it.

[formflier]

 
I'm not suggesting that you ask him again.

I am suggesting that you inform him that if he doesn't submit his billing for the 5 months that HE is owed... .you will submit that billing for him.

Then he has a choice... he can go along with it.  Instead of submitting billing he can submit something to the company that would pay saying ignore this... .I suppose there are other options.

He won't like this... it's not designed to be "liked".  It's designed to produce a payment for work rendered... that HE has chosen not to bill for.

Just like the partner hasn't given a choice or asked if it is OK to not bill.  You are not asking if it is OK to bill.

Either you will be treated like a partner by your hubby... or not.

If you are not a partner... .I would advise you to leave and offer no support whatsoever... until you are treated like an economic partner... .

Again... .this is not created to be liked... .it's created to change the results of previous things that YOU are not happy with.

FF

[Notwendy]

I'm going to share with you some of the skills I learned in 12 step groups ( which is why I and other are encouraging you to attend and get a sponsor). A sponsor held me accountable for my part in the relationship.

1) Know what you can control and can't control. This is behind the serenity prayer- God grant me the wisdom to know the difference. It is also step 1. The message behind step one is that- we can not control everything. If someone believes in a higher power, it is easy for them to comprehend that they are not God, not everything is up to them. If someone is an atheist, it can be understood as " you don't control everything that happens" - there are other forces like nature and human free will. Other people have their own free will.

The other part is to know that we need to ask for help with managing our urge to be addicted ( or co-dependent) . It is not something we can easily stop on our own. This has been stated by FF too- we need a support system. It's important to get one.

2) A part of step 4 is examining what is called our "character defects" but we are not defective. We look at things like our fears. We write them all down and share them with a sponsor. It gets them out in the open and we deal with them. Some we have to realize we can't control - we don't run the universe and we let them go to our higher power or nature.

One of your fears is that your H may harm himself like Lamar did, but truly you can not control him. You could sit by him 24/7 and he could go in the bathroom and OD on drugs. He is the one in charge of that decision. He is an adult. You can hope he doesn't harm himself but you can not control his actions. Lamar had family, friends, and a lot of money. Yet, he was in control of his behavior. He's a smart man and knew the risk. For all we know, people did try to stop him. It was a tragic outcome. But could anyone have stopped this? I don't know.

You aren't the ruler of the universe. Your H has his own decisions to make. When you decide to control him you are
 also managing your own fears because- if you are there, you can see what he is doing and if you are not there, you can't and that scares you. It's similar to what your H is doing by keeping you with him. If you are with him, he doesn't have to worry you are with someone else. We may think we are helping someone, but we can also be serving our own fears when we do. This doesn't mean you have to decide not to monitor him. It just gives you all the angles to help you decide what to do.

Step 4 also analyzes the cost of our behavior. The cost of managing your H is that you are not able to be with your children or finish your education.

What you do is up to you. These are not easy choices. One is that you be with your children and pursue your degree- but you have to live with the fear of the unknown- hubby is out of sight and possibly upset that you are not there to be his supporter ( enabler ).  The other decision is you continue to manage your husband like you are doing. It helps to have support with these dilemmas. Your H is unlikely to change a situation he benefits from. It will be up to you.

If you decide to go back to your children, it helps to avoid the YOU word or any blame. Make it about you. This is my choice. Honey, I love you but I have decided to stay with the kids. It's important to me. He's likely to be upset, threat, but if this is your choice and you can believe it is the best for you- stay the grounds. This assumes you are not in danger of physical abuse. If so, work with your counselor, have a safety plan in place. IMHO physical abuse requires professional guidance.

[snowglobe]

I'm not suggesting that you ask him again.

I am suggesting that you inform him that if he doesn't submit his billing for the 5 months that HE is owed... .you will submit that billing for him.

Then he has a choice... he can go along with it.  Instead of submitting billing he can submit something to the company that would pay saying ignore this... .I suppose there are other options.

He won't like this... it's not designed to be "liked".  It's designed to produce a payment for work rendered... that HE has chosen not to bill for.

Just like the partner hasn't given a choice or asked if it is OK to not bill.  You are not asking if it is OK to bill.

Either you will be treated like a partner by your hubby... or not.

If you are not a partner... .I would advise you to leave and offer no support whatsoever... until you are treated like an economic partner... .

Again... .this is not created to be liked... .it's created to change the results of previous things that YOU are not happy with.

FF

@Ff, sound advice. I’m tingling with anticipation theatre I’m trying to bring down, as his partner is on the way to us (work). While we are here, we all live together under the same roof (rented 2 bedroom condo). I will speak to the partner today, and invoice the company. If I don’t get any resolution, I will buy the tickets back home. I’ve been cleaning this condo (as I live here with them), cooking, doing my uBPDh laundry, massaging, managing, helping, all free of charge. I wanted to do be useful and a team player. I can take a punch and hold the ford down when needed. Yet, in the current setuation, when I can’t afford to give my kids something that they are entitled to, it gets too far. Please check in with me, periodically, today I especially need your sound advice. I don’t want to make the matters worse, or act impulsively, but the line has to be drawn somewhere

[Notwendy]

Yet, in the current situation, when I can’t afford to give my kids something that they are entitled to, it gets too far.

Beyond basic needs, do your kids also need a parent to be present for them?

Do they need summer camps or a parent to take them to the park and tuck them in at night?

They are going to grow up and leave home faster than you know. Do you want to miss these times?

Yes money is important- to a degree that needs are met, but what about love, attention, time with parents?

[snowglobe]

Yet, in the current situation, when I can’t afford to give my kids something that they are entitled to, it gets too far.

Beyond basic needs, do your kids also need a parent to be present for them?

Do they need summer camps or a parent to take them to the park and tuck them in at night?

They are going to grow up and leave home faster than you know. Do you want to miss these times?

Yes money is important- to a degree that needs are met, but what about love, attention, time with parents?

This is absolutely important, for that reason my plan for the summer was to bring them to work, and take them around, spend time, entertain, the camps were needed to give me a bit time during the day to run errands. For the fall, should he get a contract, I was planning to relocate the kids here (to work place), rent another property, separate from the partner and attend university here. Only, this “paper rich” situation isn’t helping in terms of facilitating

[Notwendy]

How old are the kids?

Who is taking care of them? Are they happy there?

What grades are they in? Do they like their schools ? Do they have friends?

If they are old enough to express their preferences - have you asked them what they want to do?

How does their caregiver feel about their position? Do they enjoy it? Are they providing a loving stable home?

Kids need their parents but if the situation is dysfunctional it could be better for them to not be living with drama, a drugged sexually inappropriate father and his scheming partner and the stresses involved for you.

Also consider what they want. They could be attached to thei caregiver, schools and friends. Is what you want to do really what is best for them ?

[formflier]

Why speak to the partner at all.

You and your husband are married... .you are not married to the partner although somehow you are in business with him... I get it you are connected.

Speak to hubby first... privately.

FF

[snowglobe]

How old are the kids?

Who is taking care of them? Are they happy there?

What grades are they in? Do they like their schools ? Do they have friends?

If they are old enough to express their preferences - have you asked them what they want to do?

How does their caregiver feel about their position? Do they enjoy it? Are they providing a loving stable home?

Kids need their parents but if the situation is dysfunctional it could be better for them to not be living with drama, a drugged sexually inappropriate father and his scheming partner and the stresses involved for you.

Also consider what they want. They could be attached to thei caregiver, schools and friends. Is what you want to do really what is best for them ?

->Kids are 15 and 11, d15 and s11 (on a spectrum for ASD)
->My parents are live in caregivers since my s11 was born, they have always been secondary caregivers after me, uBPDh contributed between 5-10% of child rearing
->:)15 is extremly busy with competitive sport, she is at professional level and is an honour student, she began to show some early BPDish behaviours last year, we saw a therapist, i adjusted my approach. S11 loves my parents very much, his grandfather (my step-dad) is his favourite person on the entire planet. They have very nurturing and gentle relationships, both kids are well adjusted, for them, nothing changes, they have the same house, schools, friends, my d15 has tutors and sports and s11 has daily therapists and extracurricular. They are happy kids
->they are going into grade 10 and grade 6 respectively, d15 doesn’t like her school, as anyone at that strange high school period, s11 doesn’t mind it, both have some friends, not too many.
-> neither of the kids want to come and replicate to “work” site, d15 has friends from other schools that she wants to spend her time with, s11 doesn’t like a change due to his diagnosis
-> my parents live and breathe these kids, especially my step dad who never had kids of his own. To him, my s11 is an apple of his eye, as he has been raising and nurturing him since he was 2 weeks old. They love being their “caregivers”, plus my mother is getting paid a fair salary by my uBPDh for providing “extra”. They are actually glad that the “turbulence of BPD” isn’t there (at home) all the time (we are away had of the time). It’s a stable 2 people household, my father is extremly balanced and emotionally intelligent, mother is her stable routine and also feels useful (they are young grandparents, mid 50s, I’m 34 yo)
-> @NotWendy, you opened up a can of warms, in a good way, here is why.
My parents report the kids being calmer, more compliant and overall in good emotional state. Although my uBPDh isn’t druged all the time (every 3 months or so, when he is high I don’t let him resurface from the basement, so my kids don’t see him like that), most of the time he is in a foul mood, irritated and snapping. I don’t know what to say, perhaps it is better for them to be far away from all this madness. The problem is, when I’m away, it actually makes the things worse even back at home. From cutting down on the financial aspect to him calling and constantly threatening and demeaning me, making it his mission to bring me down. I don’t know what to do... .

[formflier]

Hey... .this is in response to both threads.

There is zero chance I would change the situation with your kids, unless/until major changes happen with business and your marriage. 

Not promises of changes but changes that have happened and stayed happened for a while.

I've been very direct about what I believe you need to do (either he bills... or you bill).

Here is why (stay big picture)

Choices as I see them.

1.  Continue enabling

2.  Leave and let him figure it all out and accept the result (there is some wisdom to this choice, although its not my favorite)

3.  Figure out if you really are a "partner" "employee" or (fill in the blank).

I'm obviously pushing you towards 3. 

Right now... as I see it... .you "claim" to be going with him to "keep an eye on your interests".  Which you are... .you are watching them go down the tubes.

I would much rather you go to "influence what happens to your interests".  No... you don't get to be a dictator either... .pwBPD don't compromise well... .and this may not work.  But at least you will know... .vice fear... .if it will work or not.

If it turns out you have "no influence"... .then you clearly need to spend your energy elsewhere.

Here is the thing.

You can get nothing and stay with him  and enable... .or worst case... .he cuts you off... .and you still get nothing... .yet you are not in abusive relationship anymore.

FF

[snowglobe]

Hey... .this is in response to both threads.

There is zero chance I would change the situation with your kids, unless/until major changes happen with business and your marriage. 

Not promises of changes but changes that have happened and stayed happened for a while.

I've been very direct about what I believe you need to do (either he bills... or you bill).

Here is why (stay big picture)

Choices as I see them.

1.  Continue enabling

2.  Leave and let him figure it all out and accept the result (there is some wisdom to this choice, although its not my favorite)

3.  Figure out if you really are a "partner" "employee" or (fill in the blank).

I'm obviously pushing you towards 3. 

Right now... as I see it... .you "claim" to be going with him to "keep an eye on your interests".  Which you are... .you are watching them go down the tubes.

I would much rather you go to "influence what happens to your interests".  No... you don't get to be a dictator either... .pwBPD don't compromise well... .and this may not work.  But at least you will know... .vice fear... .if it will work or not.

If it turns out you have "no influence"... .then you clearly need to spend your energy elsewhere.

Here is the thing.

You can get nothing and stay with him  and enable... .or worst case... .he cuts you off... .and you still get nothing... .yet you are not in abusive relationship anymore.

FF

@Ff, I’m leaning towards doing whAt is in family’s best interest... I am stuck on how to speak to him. Based on what’s happening in his field of work yesterday and today, it’s completly down, as you probably saw, so is his stock I the public company. He just sent me 3 texts back to back, undoubtedly to shake me up;
1. Hello new lows
2. New lows today are at 20%
3. We will have to sell the house

Now the truth, he still holds assets that are 200% higher then our outstanding mortgage
He is in an organic industry that changes in a minute notice
We don’t have to sell the house, or we can sell and buy something cheaper
His whole rant is to create chaos, confusion, panic and fear

My reply to him:
Yes, I saw, it’s devastating (validating his feelings)

Now, I don’t know how to ask without tripping over the barber wire for money, when he is in this mood/state he is incoherent. What’s worse, his drug abuse last Monday doesnf help to keep him mentally stable

[Notwendy]

Seems like the best thing for the kids is to not relocate them and leave them with your parents.

Consistency is important, especially for a child on the spectrum.

The 15 year old doesn't have much more of high school left and then she will be off to college. Moving her at 15 in high school can be a disruption.

It isn't my decision, but pulling the kids away from a stable environment to go live at the worksite away from your parents who are important caregivers is not in their best interest.

They are part of this, and they have their wishes. At the age of your kids if someone had given me a choice to live with my parents- BPD mother, enabling father or my extended family ( we stayed with my fathers family a lot and they were loving and stable) I would have chosen to live with his family immediately. It wouldn't even be a question for me.

Considering your H doesn't seem to care that he isn't parenting them and when he is home you need to shield them from his drug habit and he stays in the basement, what's the point of bringing them closer to him ( and away from stability and people who are invested in them. )

I don't know your parents' situation but if they have a home ,and your H cuts you off financially, the kids will not be homeless and your parents won't let them starve.

As a kid who grew up with an unstable BPD parent and enabling father, the situation your kids are in sounds like a piece of heaven to me.

The next question is you. It appears the best place for the kids is to stay and I think they and your parents would agree. Your decision is stay with your H or leave and stay with the kids.

I don't know what to say about that decision. It really is up to you. If you stay there and watch your husband, the kids will be fine, but will you be? If you return, are you able to keep boundaries on the chaos he may create- ie speak to him at scheduled times, don't always answer the phone.

[snowglobe]

Seems like the best thing for the kids is to not relocate them and leave them with your parents.

Consistency is important, especially for a child on the spectrum.

The 15 year old doesn't have much more of high school left and then she will be off to college. Moving her at 15 in high school can be a disruption.

It isn't my decision, but pulling the kids away from a stable environment to go live at the worksite away from your parents who are important caregivers is not in their best interest.

They are part of this, and they have their wishes. At the age of your kids if someone had given me a choice to live with my parents- BPD mother, enabling father or my extended family ( we stayed with my fathers family a lot and they were loving and stable) I would have chosen to live with his family immediately. It wouldn't even be a question for me.

Considering your H doesn't seem to care that he isn't parenting them and when he is home you need to shield them from his drug habit and he stays in the basement, what's the point of bringing them closer to him ( and away from stability and people who are invested in them. )

I don't know your parents' situation but if they have a home ,and your H cuts you off financially, the kids will not be homeless and your parents won't let them starve.

As a kid who grew up with an unstable BPD parent and enabling father, the situation your kids are in sounds like a piece of heaven to me.

The next question is you. It appears the best place for the kids is to stay and I think they and your parents would agree. Your decision is stay with your H or leave and stay with the kids.

I don't know what to say about that decision. It really is up to you. If you stay there and watch your husband, the kids will be fine, but will you be? If you return, are you able to keep boundaries on the chaos he may create- ie speak to him at scheduled times, don't always answer the phone.

It is certainly in their best interest to stay away from him... .I guess I just haven’t processed it fully... .when I stay away, he tries to enforce this chaos onto the children. They both have phones, so he can tell to d15: “you are gonna have to quit sport immediately, you are lazy, hood for nothing, it’s cheaper for me to have you quit” (when he is facing financial struggles), or to s11; “answer me xyz”, you don’t know?. Why am I spending so much money on therapy (never mind it’s s15’s recommendation of clinical psychologist to keep it going till he is 18 yo)? I should go and blow this money on guns and parties (trying to provoke my reaction). So it seemed like the only solution, to take the heat so they wouldn’t have to. He is resourceful, if I ever came swinging openly, at that time he would manically locate the resources to crush me down (according to him).

[Notwendy]

It seems the main power he has is money. ( the drug/woman issue is a threat, but the main "hook" is the money).

What is your part in this? You are attached to something he controls. Because of that, he controls you.

You speak of "entitled to" in context of the kids, a certain share of the money. And you are hanging on here to get your part of that share.

But what is the personal price you are paying for this potential money? Is it worth basically your whole life being focused on managing him?  He can do what he wants with that money- whether it is legally correct, fair, right or wrong. He controls it.

The only way I could gain independence from my parents was to not need them financially. My father made a very good living but my BPD mother controlled every penny of it.  When it came to college, I didn't even apply to private colleges. I purposely applied to an affordable state college that I knew I could put myself through because I didn't know if BPD mother would approve tuition or not each semester. Relying on my mother for money meant being at her disposal.

When my father died, he left my mother in a good financial situation. We were afraid she would spend her money too quickly. It was a selfish fear- because we didn't want her to run out of money for her needs. She has been mismanaging it but it is her money and we have no power to control what she does with it. She uses it to control people. The only way we can stay out of her control is to disconnect from her money, or anything else she has ( she also uses my father's possesions to manipulate me- " if you want your father's things you need to do this or that). I was not attached to her money but I was attached to his memories - and to be free of her cruel manipulations I had to let go of that.

You can't control what your H does with money if it is in his hands. All you can do is control your attachment to it. It appears he is keeping you trapped but if you were not attached to it, you would not be trapped in this.

If you were not spending all your time and mental energy focused on his business issues, would you be able to work yourself? You may not earn what he earns, but any job would pay something. Or work part time and go to school.

I know that some money is necessary for basic needs and survival, but beyond that, what is the personal cost to you of the money he has? If it is worth it to you to hang in there, from my own experience, IMHO the children should be spared from his behavior and left where they are.

[snowglobe]

It seems the main power he has is money. ( the drug/woman issue is a threat, but the main "hook" is the money).

What is your part in this? You are attached to something he controls. Because of that, he controls you.

You speak of "entitled to" in context of the kids, a certain share of the money. And you are hanging on here to get your part of that share.

But what is the personal price you are paying for this potential money? Is it worth basically your whole life being focused on managing him?  He can do what he wants with that money- whether it is legally correct, fair, right or wrong. He controls it.

The only way I could gain independence from my parents was to not need them financially. My father made a very good living but my BPD mother controlled every penny of it.  When it came to college, I didn't even apply to private colleges. I purposely applied to an affordable state college that I knew I could put myself through because I didn't know if BPD mother would approve tuition or not each semester. Relying on my mother for money meant being at her disposal.

When my father died, he left my mother in a good financial situation. We were afraid she would spend her money too quickly. It was a selfish fear- because we didn't want her to run out of money for her needs. She has been mismanaging it but it is her money and we have no power to control what she does with it. She uses it to control people. The only way we can stay out of her control is to disconnect from her money, or anything else she has ( she also uses my father's possesions to manipulate me- " if you want your father's things you need to do this or that). I was not attached to her money but I was attached to his memories - and to be free of her cruel manipulations I had to let go of that.

You can't control what your H does with money if it is in his hands. All you can do is control your attachment to it. It appears he is keeping you trapped but if you were not attached to it, you would not be trapped in this.

If you were not spending all your time and mental energy focused on his business issues, would you be able to work yourself? You may not earn what he earns, but any job would pay something. Or work part time and go to school.

I know that some money is necessary for basic needs and survival, but beyond that, what is the personal cost to you of the money he has? If it is worth it to you to hang in there, from my own experience, IMHO the children should be spared from his behavior and left where they are.

@NotWendy, you are absolutely correct in your observation. My own fears and issues, combined with high overhead costs associated with my kids literally puts me on my knees. To drive point further, I could take the blame for being money hungry if I spent it on my own needs or wants. The reality is such, I’m clawing money out of him to pay for our children. Perhaps this is where I’m going wrong about? I’m on a wait list for my son’s therapy from the government affiliated agency. Sometime next year he will be funded. My d is 15, and if I asked her which one would she rather choose, being with me everyday or competing she would choose me. I believe in this wholeheartedly. I don’t want to make her choose, as it’s not her burden to carry. I won’t be able to maintain the same lifestyle for them, there will be a lot of adjustment. He is also likely to flip out and either threaten or start the divorce punishment. It has happened in the past, when I didn’t comply. My entire marriage has been built on threats and my cooperation and overcompensating.

[snowglobe]

When it rains, it pours, rather quickly, update:
I asked my uBPDh if he spoke to his partner regarding the financials, he replied that he doesn’t want to stress his partner out (that’s new, he doesn’t stop himself in my behalf) because he is doing negotiations for a new contract.
Fast forward an hour, uBPDh called me, here is exchange:
Him: how are you?
Me: not great
Him:I have news
Me: really, what is it?
Him:we got an offer, which is (half of what he was asking, in a range of 2times of his salary from another business). I thought of first rejecting it, yet... .
Me: no f... .way, it doesn’t make sense to go through all this trouble for only xyz amount (not a sweet offer)
Him: profanities, I’m not asking for your opinion, don’t say anything if you aren’t being asked, can you make that amount (in my field I would make about half, after many years of experience)
Me: how about we start by getting what you owed for the past 5 months, how about that?
Him: no, go ... .yourself, you ... ., I’m not asking what you want
Me: we don’t speak to each other this way
Him: continued the rant
Me: we don’t speak to each other this way

He hung up the phone

This didn’t go well at all, I should have held back on my dismay of the salary, from what I know about a business world, and the amount of time and effort he is putting into this, this isn’t a sweet deal worth of grabbing. He is all pissed because business is down, I didn’t validate him (why should I? No, he didn’t ask me, he just called to inform me). I’m all swimming in my head.
Years before I found this site and your support I would be calling back and apologized, now, I’m trying to make sense of it. WAs I wrong?
I remember him saying explicitly that he won’t move his little finger for an amount twice as big. How did we come to this “good offer”? His enmeshment with partner is going at the full speed, he is stealing money under my unpdh’s Nose while stroking his ego. My uBPDh takes it all the way.
How do I behave?

[snowglobe]

What it means for the family, is that he will need to spend twice as much time at work, away from the family for very little profit when you consider living between two households, Kids need to eat, heating needs to be paid, all the same expenses plus living costs in another city. I’m hurting from visibly having no say in his matters, only when the things go bad does he remember me suddenly. He wants immediate comfort and consolation, made feel better. When it comes to me, I don’t have a say. I want to go home, away from this all, I’m so tired and exhausted.

[formflier]

He worries about stressing out his partner... because his partner "stands up to him"... ."demands respect"... .

You don't... .therefore... you don't get it, because it's not required.

He can send the invoice, or you can send it.  He can be stressed... or not.

His partner can be stressed... or not.

Being in business is not about "potential money"... .it's about actual money.  Generally money that shows up kinda regularly.

My two cents.

FF

[Notwendy]

I want to address the kids. This is another triangle. Him, the kids, and you. He's their father too and he actually does have a choice to fund sports or therapy or not. The decision is between him and them. With you in the middle as their rescuer, in the drama triangle, it becomes a three way ,not a two way decision. When you approach him, the kids are the victims, you are the rescuer, and he is in bad guy position. What he hears is ay up or be the bad guy. He's going to feel resentful of that position and you are going to feel hurt "don't you care about your kids?"

Maybe he does and maybe he doesn't but he won't get the chance to decide if you are in the middle of this. Your daughter is old enough to say ":)ad, are you willing to support my sports" .  When the bill comes for your son's therapy, it can be sent to him.

You don't have to decide to do this or not. The risk is he will say no, but the other potential is that he is in the position to really make his own choice.

For your children, they will see what kind of person he is.  You do need to protect them from harm, but if Dad won't pay for what they ask him for, then that isn't abuse, it is reality. He will then bear the responsibility for that choice.


Lets try this conversation again:

the original:

Him: how are you?
Me: not great
Him:I have news
Me: really, what is it?
Him:we got an offer, which is (half of what he was asking, in a range of 2times of his salary from another business). I thought of first rejecting it, yet... .
Me: no f... .way, it doesn’t make sense to go through all this trouble for only xyz amount (not a sweet offer)

This completely shuts the conversation down. He doesn't even finish what he is thinking. It all goes downhill after that

Now he is getting defensive:
Him: profanities, I’m not asking for your opinion, don’t say anything if you aren’t being asked, can you make that amount (in my field I would make about half, after many years of experience)
Me: how about we start by getting what you owed for the past 5 months, how about that? This communicates resentment and you do feel that, but then he reacts to that.
Him: no, go ... .yourself, you ... ., I’m not asking what you want
Me: we don’t speak to each other this way
Him: continued the rant
Me: we don’t speak to each other this way



A version that may make a difference because it leaves room for him to share his thoughts and doesn't shut the conversation down.

Him: how are you?
Me: not great
Him:I have news
Me: really, what is it?
Him:we got an offer, which is (half of what he was asking, in a range of 2times of his salary from another business). I thought of first rejecting it, yet... .
Me: What are you thinking about it ? ( this opens the door for discussion)
Him: I agree it is a bad offer but money is trickling in and I am thinking maybe it is better to take it now.
Me:  I hear you but do you think it is enough?
Him: I sort of do, I am not sure though.
Me:  How much time do you have to think about it before you have to reply?
Him: By the end of the week
Me: Ok well think about it and let me know.

[snowglobe]

I want to address the kids. This is another triangle. Him, the kids, and you. He's their father too and he actually does have a choice to fund sports or therapy or not. The decision is between him and them. With you in the middle as their rescuer, in the drama triangle, it becomes a three way ,not a two way decision. When you approach him, the kids are the victims, you are the rescuer, and he is in bad guy position. What he hears is ay up or be the bad guy. He's going to feel resentful of that position and you are going to feel hurt "don't you care about your kids?"

Maybe he does and maybe he doesn't but he won't get the chance to decide if you are in the middle of this. Your daughter is old enough to say ":)ad, are you willing to support my sports" .  When the bill comes for your son's therapy, it can be sent to him.

You don't have to decide to do this or not. The risk is he will say no, but the other potential is that he is in the position to really make his own choice.

For your children, they will see what kind of person he is.  You do need to protect them from harm, but if Dad won't pay for what they ask him for, then that isn't abuse, it is reality. He will then bear the responsibility for that choice.


Lets try this conversation again:

the original:

Him: how are you?
Me: not great
Him:I have news
Me: really, what is it?
Him:we got an offer, which is (half of what he was asking, in a range of 2times of his salary from another business). I thought of first rejecting it, yet... .
Me: no f... .way, it doesn’t make sense to go through all this trouble for only xyz amount (not a sweet offer)

This completely shuts the conversation down. He doesn't even finish what he is thinking. It all goes downhill after that

Now he is getting defensive:
Him: profanities, I’m not asking for your opinion, don’t say anything if you aren’t being asked, can you make that amount (in my field I would make about half, after many years of experience)
Me: how about we start by getting what you owed for the past 5 months, how about that? This communicates resentment and you do feel that, but then he reacts to that.
Him: no, go ... .yourself, you ... ., I’m not asking what you want
Me: we don’t speak to each other this way
Him: continued the rant
Me: we don’t speak to each other this way



A version that may make a difference because it leaves room for him to share his thoughts and doesn't shut the conversation down.

Him: how are you?
Me: not great
Him:I have news
Me: really, what is it?
Him:we got an offer, which is (half of what he was asking, in a range of 2times of his salary from another business). I thought of first rejecting it, yet... .
Me: What are you thinking about it ? ( this opens the door for discussion)
Him: I agree it is a bad offer but money is trickling in and I am thinking maybe it is better to take it now.
Me:  I hear you but do you think it is enough?
Him: I sort of do, I am not sure though.
Me:  How much time do you have to think about it before you have to reply?
Him: By the end of the week
Me: Ok well think about it and let me know.

Regarding kids, thank you for opening this conversation. As their primary caregiver and decision maker I feel responsible for them all the time. I never really gave my uBPDh a chance to take this responsibility. What’s more, I was always fearful, which isn’t baseless, if he was in charge of d15 professional career, she would never get as far as she did.(he can’t accept failure, after every loss he wants her to quit. Which isn’t compatible with sport)
Regarding conversation, I could have definetly handled it better, what’s worse is now I’m not in the know and his partner is coming in as a rescuer. I will try to lay low, and keep questions to minimum. Do you have any suggestions on how to repair it?

[formflier]

The best way to repair it is to STOP doing things that got it in need of repair.

Am I correct that you are controlling D15s career?

FF

[snowglobe]

The best way to repair it is to STOP doing things that got it in need of repair.

Am I correct that you are controlling D15s career?

FF

UBPDh enrolled her in sport when she was 3 yo, the couch saw her potential and encouraged us to take it seriously. Through financial hardship, unpdh’s Meltdowns, I managed to budget and keep her going. She loves it and feels very confident and achieved as a result. She trains 20+ hours a week, which also leaves little time for getting into trouble. So yes, I have been managing her career from near and far for the last 12 years.

[formflier]

And... what if you saw an in person therapist... .that advised you that you have potential (as we have)... .would you "manage" your own career and life?

She's 15... .isn't it about time to turn it over to her?

Your husband is how old?  Isn't it time to turn his life over to him?

That should leave you plenty of energy and time to "control" your life.

My intent is to be direct, please don't take this as harsh (that's not my intent)

You do have "business interests" and "financial interests" with your husband's business... .either control them or walk away from the entire thing.  That is different than trying to control what your husband does. (please think about this for a while to make sure that is straight in your head)

If you husband is going to "fight you" to prevent business money from coming in via billing... .which should have been done monthly  (from the sound of the deal), but hasn't due to a partners personal preferences for hiding assets... .then you need to "know" that... and not "fear" that.

Personally... I think your hubby will fold and bill.  However... .after so long of threats, you really need to know if there is substance there or not.

Living a life based on fear is no good.  Living a life based on knowledge gained through experience is manageable, even if the knowledge you gain is unpleasant.

FF

[Notwendy]

Snowglobe-

I am glad I got the chance to see this exchange between you and your H and to read the situation. It may sound as if I am focusing on you - I know your H has serious issues- but you are the one who is here, and the only person you can control or change is you.

Having gone through a lot of work on co-dependency, I can see some of the things you are doing that I needed to work on. Sometimes things are more apparent when we had to learn them ourselves.

You have several big things that need to be decided. Whether to live with him or return to where your kids are, your schooling and future career, the money issues, his business issues. These are really big things. I know it is frustrating to feel like you are in a pattern that keeps on going.

A site on the internet describes this as the dance of co-dependency. I don't know if this site is a reliable source or not, but the title, the dance makes sense. To change the dance, you need to change your steps and it starts with small steps.

The conversation you posted shows the resentments in your responses. Also the control. You have one idea of what needs to be done and he's doing it wrong. There is no room for his ideas. Take the offer, counter offer, negotiate, reject it. He didn't have the chance to finish his sentence and the whole thing deteriorated. It isn't that you could have handled it better. You handled it with the best tools you have for communicating with him now. To do differently, there has to be new tools.

Most of what I have learned is from personal counseling, 12 steps, and this board. All are useful and all are better than only one learning situation. Several have suggested counseling and 12 steps in addition to this. The 12 steps directly address control, resentments and fears. This is a good first step for learning to do something different.

You are not wrong but what you are doing isn't working well for you in some areas. We have the relationship tools we have from our experiences and also the families we grow up in. Some of them may have worked with our families growing up ,but are not working so well now. Counseling and a 12 step group can really help you get into these issues - and from that, you can make the bigger changes.

[formflier]

The conversation you posted shows the resentments in your responses. Also the control. You have one idea of what needs to be done and he's doing it wrong. There is no room for his ideas. Take the offer, counter offer, negotiate, reject it. He didn't have the chance to finish his sentence and the whole thing deteriorated. It isn't that you could have handled it better. You handled it with the best tools you have for communicating with him now. To do differently, there has to be new tools.
 

There are two pathways that I see... .

If you are on your trip to help him manage money... .then do that. (

If you are not able to bring yourself to stand up for your business interests... .then you need to go get new skills... .ASAP.

100% agree with Notwendy... .the way the interaction was handled was crushing to him.

What you should make sure DOESN'T happen is that a couple weeks from now you are wondering which path to go down.

The only way to make sure your story doesn't repeat... .is to not repeat it.

Gaining new skills or actually managing the money (or attempting to)... .would be new things.

FF