Abuse toward kids and custody

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Hi everyone, I hope this question is ok.  I am new and haven't had a chance to read most of the posts here yet, so I apologize if this has been covered.  I plan to ask a lawyer one day, but right now I have only seen a couple for a brief consultation, and have not yet filed or formally hired one. 

My husband has been both physically and emotionally abusive to me.  Up until recently, he hasn't been so to our daughter (she is 4) but there was an episode a couple weeks ago, and maybe a couple before that I definitely do not consider to be ok but I wasn't sure if it was abuse at the time, and now I am questioning myself.

The first was a couple years ago... .our daughter was acting up, and she was standing up and my husband spanked her with one hand (she was clothed with a diaper on) and she not only fell over, but she kind of fell forward, kind of the way in which a baseball player may slide on their tummies onto a base.  I don't think he intended for that to happen, and while we do agree spanking is ok (It doesn't happen often at all, and I do not do it because it never seemed to work very well on her and I cannot handle the hurt look on her face when I did in the past) I feel that he spanked her out of anger and not discipline, and that is NOT ok.  We spoke about it at the time and he agreed it wasn't ok and he felt bad, but when I brought it up a few weeks ago, he claims to not remember doing that.

The second time was verbal, not physical.  This was a couple of months ago.  She was being very sassy that day and wasn't listening, which I agreed with him is very trying and frustrating.  But, from the other room I heard him yell at her to stop doing whatever she was doing, and then I heard him say "I swear to God I'm going to beat your f******* a**, and he said it very angrily through gritted teeth.  I yelled at him and we got into a huge fight about it and we didn't speak for a couple days. 

This last time, she was again being difficult that day (what 4 year old isn't) and we were telling her to stop this and that left and right, though I do feel though that my husband yells at her for almost everything, and claims I am too soft on her, but I try to tell him you have to pick your battles and let some stuff go, kids can be loud and annoying sometimes, you've just got to attempt to tune them out sometimes and let them have fun.  So we were watching tv and he was sitting in the chair and there was about two feet of space between him and the ottoman, which she was running around while singing.  After a few minutes, he stuck his foot out and pushed her over into the ottoman as she ran by.

I was beside myself as to what I had just witnessed.  He didn't "kick her" exactly, he basically placed his foot on her and gave her a shove into the ottoman, and she wasn't hurt and didn't even cry or fuss, but he did not do it in a joking manor at all.  He was irritated with her and he knocked her over on purpose.  That's not even something you should do to a dog, much less your child imo.

Another fight ensued, and I was about to leave him right then and there, but now I am in a catch 22.  I feel like at least by being in the same house, I can monitor and shield her from some of the stuff he may say and do.  But at the same time I feel like a horrible mom because anything done badly to my daughter should have me packing our bags and leaving right then.

He also likes to "play with her" and bug her, but he either cannot tell, or just doesn't care when she has had enough, and he'll take it too far.  A couple weeks ago he was messing with her so bad she screamed and began crying, and I could hear the rage and anguish in her voice because he would not stop bugging her.  I have felt that same thing, because he used to do that to me.

So I guess my question is, how is custody handled when there is abuse or borderline abuse involving a parent and the kids?  I don't want to let this go.  It's 3 incidents in 4 years, but even one is one too many, and his abuse with me started out further apart and more mild in the beginning too, so I don't want to be "ok" with this as it will likely continue and increase.  But at the same time, I don't want to paint a picture of him being a monster, who is a danger to her.  I am actually more concerned about the long term affect his treatment could have on her.  NO child should ever have to hear the words he uttered to her when he was annoyed with her, or being kicked over like a dog because he is mad.  I don't want her to grow up wondering what she did wrong to make her dad treat her this way.  And maybe I am just in denial, but I don't exactly fear her being alone with him right now... .I don't fear that he would beat her up or badly hurt her, but I fear the damage that could be done over 5 and 10 and 15 years.  The emotional trauma of your dad, your supposed protector and hero, being mean and saying and doing mean things. 

So I'm worried about claiming there is no abuse and being a bad mom and not protecting my daughter, but I don't know if his actions merit seeking sole custody and never even letting him see her.  Is there an in between in these cases?  Supervised visitation or something?  His parents, her grandparents are wonderful and both them and my daughter would be devastated if they never saw each other again, so I worry abuse allegations could affect her being able to see them... .or maybe that is the answer, that THEY actually get his visitation time and he can only see her when they are all at their house?  I know I am getting too far ahead of myself, but I know that is one thing that is a huge obstacle in getting the courage to file for divorce, is worrying about custody and what to do. 

I was all set to talk to my therapist about it when this last incident happened (he knows about the verbal one, not sure if I told him about the spanking one) when I realized he is a mandatory reporter and would have to report this to CPS, right?  I want my daughter to be safe, but I think a visit from CPS would create a bad home environment, especially while we're still married and still living together.  Any advice or information would be greatly appreciated!   

[WantToBeFree]

Hi everyone, I hope this question is ok.  I am new and haven't had a chance to read most of the posts here yet, so I apologize if this has been covered.  I plan to ask a lawyer one day, but right now I have only seen a couple for a brief consultation, and have not yet filed or formally hired one. 

My husband has been both physically and emotionally abusive to me.  Up until recently, he hasn't been so to our daughter (she is 4) but there was an episode a couple weeks ago, and maybe a couple before that I definitely do not consider to be ok but I wasn't sure if it was abuse at the time, and now I am questioning myself.

The first was a couple years ago... .our daughter was acting up, and she was standing up and my husband spanked her with one hand (she was clothed with a diaper on) and she not only fell over, but she kind of fell forward, kind of the way in which a baseball player may slide on their tummies onto a base.  I don't think he intended for that to happen, and while we do agree spanking is ok (It doesn't happen often at all, and I do not do it because it never seemed to work very well on her and I cannot handle the hurt look on her face when I did in the past) I feel that he spanked her out of anger and not discipline, and that is NOT ok.  We spoke about it at the time and he agreed it wasn't ok and he felt bad, but when I brought it up a few weeks ago, he claims to not remember doing that.

The second time was verbal, not physical.  This was a couple of months ago.  She was being very sassy that day and wasn't listening, which I agreed with him is very trying and frustrating.  But, from the other room I heard him yell at her to stop doing whatever she was doing, and then I heard him say "I swear to God I'm going to beat your f******* a**, and he said it very angrily through gritted teeth.  I yelled at him and we got into a huge fight about it and we didn't speak for a couple days. 

This last time, she was again being difficult that day (what 4 year old isn't) and we were telling her to stop this and that left and right, though I do feel though that my husband yells at her for almost everything, and claims I am too soft on her, but I try to tell him you have to pick your battles and let some stuff go, kids can be loud and annoying sometimes, you've just got to attempt to tune them out sometimes and let them have fun.  So we were watching tv and he was sitting in the chair and there was about two feet of space between him and the ottoman, which she was running around while singing.  After a few minutes, he stuck his foot out and pushed her over into the ottoman as she ran by.

I was beside myself as to what I had just witnessed.  He didn't "kick her" exactly, he basically placed his foot on her and gave her a shove into the ottoman, and she wasn't hurt and didn't even cry or fuss, but he did not do it in a joking manor at all.  He was irritated with her and he knocked her over on purpose.  That's not even something you should do to a dog, much less your child imo.

Another fight ensued, and I was about to leave him right then and there, but now I am in a catch 22.  I feel like at least by being in the same house, I can monitor and shield her from some of the stuff he may say and do.  But at the same time I feel like a horrible mom because anything done badly to my daughter should have me packing our bags and leaving right then.

He also likes to "play with her" and bug her, but he either cannot tell, or just doesn't care when she has had enough, and he'll take it too far.  A couple weeks ago he was messing with her so bad she screamed and began crying, and I could hear the rage and anguish in her voice because he would not stop bugging her.  I have felt that same thing, because he used to do that to me.

So I guess my question is, how is custody handled when there is abuse or borderline abuse involving a parent and the kids?  I don't want to let this go.  It's 3 incidents in 4 years, but even one is one too many, and his abuse with me started out further apart and more mild in the beginning too, so I don't want to be "ok" with this as it will likely continue and increase.  But at the same time, I don't want to paint a picture of him being a monster, who is a danger to her.  I am actually more concerned about the long term affect his treatment could have on her.  NO child should ever have to hear the words he uttered to her when he was annoyed with her, or being kicked over like a dog because he is mad.  I don't want her to grow up wondering what she did wrong to make her dad treat her this way.  And maybe I am just in denial, but I don't exactly fear her being alone with him right now... .I don't fear that he would beat her up or badly hurt her, but I fear the damage that could be done over 5 and 10 and 15 years.  The emotional trauma of your dad, your supposed protector and hero, being mean and saying and doing mean things. 

So I'm worried about claiming there is no abuse and being a bad mom and not protecting my daughter, but I don't know if his actions merit seeking sole custody and never even letting him see her.  Is there an in between in these cases?  Supervised visitation or something?  His parents, her grandparents are wonderful and both them and my daughter would be devastated if they never saw each other again, so I worry abuse allegations could affect her being able to see them... .or maybe that is the answer, that THEY actually get his visitation time and he can only see her when they are all at their house?  I know I am getting too far ahead of myself, but I know that is one thing that is a huge obstacle in getting the courage to file for divorce, is worrying about custody and what to do. 

I was all set to talk to my therapist about it when this last incident happened (he knows about the verbal one, not sure if I told him about the spanking one) when I realized he is a mandatory reporter and would have to report this to CPS, right?  I want my daughter to be safe, but I think a visit from CPS would create a bad home environment, especially while we're still married and still living together.  Any advice or information would be greatly appreciated!   

[livednlearned]

Hi WantToBeFree,

Always feel free to post any questions you have -- this is a great place to get support for exactly the stuff you're dealing with. I'm glad you posted   and sorry for what brings you here.

It sounds like you see a pattern of abuse, and lucky for your daughter, you are gathering information so you know how best to protect her (and you), both physically and legally.

how is custody handled when there is abuse or borderline abuse involving a parent and the kids?

When there is not a whole lot of evidence for the abuse, you can use family law court strategies and tactics to shine light on the behaviors.

The emotional trauma of your dad, your supposed protector and hero, being mean and saying and doing mean things.

Especially if she sees it happening to you, too. It will be normal and familiar for her that men hurt women. Feeling unsafe becomes mixed up with love.

I'm worried about claiming there is no abuse and being a bad mom and not protecting my daughter, but I don't know if his actions merit seeking sole custody and never even letting him see her.

Sole custody usually means having physical and legal custody with some form of limited or supervised/unsupervised visitation. It is unlikely that you would get sole custody with no visitation (for him) right away. What does seem to happen with uBPD men during an active custody battle is that they fight for the sake of fighting, but then don't actually want (or can't handle) a lot of time with the child.

What you might want to do is start keeping a journal and creating a trail of documentation. Or, if you live in a one-party consent state, you could start taping abusive conversations or actions your H has with her (and you). You may not get sole custody right away, but you can ask for it and then put together a strategy with a lawyer to help you reach that goal over time.

I worry abuse allegations could affect her being able to see them... .or maybe that is the answer, that THEY actually get his visitation time and he can only see her when they are all at their house?

That's a possibility. A lot of times we get a temporary order on the court's clock, and then our ex's dysregulate and by then, there are usually third-party professionals shining light on things. Other people start to trigger the same behaviors we trigger in our exes, and then you get a small team working with you to create a healthy environment for the child. If your ex is able to pull himself together for short periods, he may be able to coparent with you. If he has a lot of narcissism, he will probably get in his own way and start to think in such short-term ways that he begins to lose more and more custodial time. With my ex, I think he could not conceive of an outcome in which he was anything but the victim, so he helped create that for himself, despite the many ropes people threw him to help save himself.

Your ex has an anger issue. You may propose, as part of your custodial order, that he gets anger management counseling and does a DV class or or parenting class or something to show he is capable of change. That his parenting time is contingent on showing his willingness to get better. Depending on the severity of his PD symptoms, he will probably struggle to do the classes, which will raise a red flag for people involved in your case.

I know I am getting too far ahead of myself, but I know that is one thing that is a huge obstacle in getting the courage to file for divorce, is worrying about custody and what to do.

I understand. The most important thing I did was to get prepared. I spent a year researching, asking questions, getting myself psychologically and emotionally ready. I bought a cheap phone that I only used for talking to my lawyer and hid it outside. I got a PO Box for legal bills and any mail I needed to keep private. I had a storage locker where I put meaningful things like my son's art work and photo albums, keepsakes and copies of important legal documents, plus a set of clothing and other things I might need if he locked me out. I had a credit card in my name only, and made sure I knew where I could stay, and what would happen legally if I had to leave without my son, if I managed to leave with him, or if I was the one to change locks. Lots and lots of plans and contingencies. It took a while to pull all of this together, and even longer to get the nerve to go. Then one day, I discovered he was trying to cut me off financially and that was the go button. I left that same day with my son and launched the plan that worked for that scenario.

The most important thing I did was to document everything, and to be very careful about backing things up and securing them so they wouldn't be discovered. I also had a plan for the order of things if A happened, or the order of things if B happened, etc.

My ex was a former trial attorney so I was motivated to learn as much as I could. Once I realized he was just trying to intimidate me (eg. you will lose custody once the judge reads what I tell him, etc.) I started to research the facts about how things work.

I was all set to talk to my therapist about it when this last incident happened (he knows about the verbal one, not sure if I told him about the spanking one) when I realized he is a mandatory reporter and would have to report this to CPS, right?  I want my daughter to be safe, but I think a visit from CPS would create a bad home environment, especially while we're still married and still living together.  

We don't want to create a situation that we aren't ready to handle, so we try to control things. Reporting things to CPS feels like putting your foot on the gas, except you want to keep it on the brakes, because that's what you know.

The hard truth is that at some point, we have to hit the gas.

If I were in your situation, I think I would figure out exactly what will happen next time there is an event. Because there will be another event. Know exactly what your next steps are, and use that momentum to help you and your daughter legally.

If you wait too long, there is this double-edged sword where you tell the courts he is abusive, and then have to explain why you didn't do anything to stop it. Explaining that you were fearful will be much easier for people to tolerate if there is also evidence that you were preparing to leave, and doing so in a way that would be safe for everyone involved.

[WantToBeFree]

Thank you so much Livednlearned.  This is the first time I have truly spilled the whole truth to anyone/anywhere about what he has done.  I've told bits and pieces to friends, and my therapist, but not enough so that they fully understand that he is abusive and it is starting to trickle over to our daughter.

My stbEx sounds very much like yours.  My dad (who knows a lot but doesn't know about the abuse, but knows he is very absent and aloof in the parenting department) is certain my daughter will be with my inlaws during his time even without any push from me.  When we separated last fall, that is where he stayed, so when he saw our daughter, he saw her at his parents' house.  In fact, he never even asked me about when he would see her... .she always goes to his parents' house every Wednesday so I can work (I work from home) so I guess he was content with knowing she'd be there on Wednesdays.  I was prepared to offer for him to get her every other weekend, so we could get a schedule in place and get used to it before the courts even got involved, but he never asked about a schedule, and it wasn't long after that that I stupidly agreed to try again, and he was coming home to stay and spend time with us most weekends. 

But even when he was only seeing her on Wednesdays and the occasional weekend day if he came around, he never called her in between to talk to her, which is crazy to me.  If I were apart from her, I'd be calling her at least once a day, if not more.  For these last 4 years, he has been a very part-time dad with her anyway.  For the first 2.5 years of her life he was downstairs playing video games most of the day, so he was never around to bond with her or take care of her.  He hasn't bathed her since she was a few days old, he doesn't spend one on one time with her ever, and he still doesn't help out much.  He never does bedtime or reads her stories... .if she gives him a goodnight hug or kiss, it's because she does it, or I suggest she go give him a hug.  He's just sort of there.  The only reason he is even upstairs with us and not still playing video games is because he at least made those changes when I first told him I wanted a divorce.  So I'm certain my dad is right, he likely will not want to or be capable of really taking all of his visitation time with her anyway, and she'll likely be at his parents house a lot if not always.  I think in the beginning he will fight me on everything, like you said, just for the sake of fighting... .to look like a doting father who wants to spend time with his daughter.  But little by little he'll dump her on his parents, or not even be home when she is there if he is living with them for a while.

But I don't intend to lie about the abuse to lawyers or the court.  I just feel like I am walking a very fine line... .I want to be truthful about his behavior and I want people to understand that he is not a great dad and he does do these things, but it feels wrong to say he is an immediate danger to her all the time and I am hoping the courts see stuff like this a lot, where the father probably is ok to get time with their child, but maybe isn't trustworthy enough or calm enough to be alone with them all the time. 

Thank you so much for all your advice and support.  I will definitely start keeping journals or documentation about these episodes, and I am hoping I will have initiated a separation/begin the divorce proceedings before it happens again.  I know nobody can answer this since they don't know him, but I am wondering if I tell my therapist about it, but he knows I am taking steps to leave, if he would not report it to CPS.  He's known me for a while, I've been going to him for at least 8 years, and he actually used to just be my husband's therapist before we went together and I eventually started going alone... .he also sees my MIL.  I'm just looking for a way to tell someone, so someone in my real life knows, and can perhaps attest to the fact that I am trying to do things to ensure my daughter's safety, but I am very scared of how my husband would react if we got a visit from CPS, while we are all still living in the same house.  I know he would be beyond angry.

I've thought about telling my mother-in-law, but I don't know.  She is a very good MIL, she and I are close and she isn't a typical MIL that you hear horror stories about.  She does know he has been emotionally and physically abusive to me, and while I admit, she maybe didn't do as much as I would hope she would do, she was definitely upset to hear and assured me it was not acceptable.  But he IS still her son, so I think she does have her head in the sand regarding that a little bit.  But she is a very good grandmother and she loves my daughter so much, so I am hoping if she hears of this stuff he has done to her, she would be a little more enraged.  I don't even know what I expect her to do about it.  But again, it's just the act of telling someone else, letting someone else in on what is going on.  We are still pretty close, but I do feel we have drifted apart some since me and my husband's separation last fall.  I am not sure how much of an ally she still is.  But some of my uncertainty may be due to my own fears and my husband feeding me a line of BS... .he likes to pit them against me, and tell me hurtful things they said so that I'll be devestated that they said something "against me", but who knows if they really even said those things, or if they did, they may have been taken out of context.

But like I said, no matter whose "side they are on", I would hope their love and desire to protect their granddaughter would override any of that.  Thank you again for your help! 

[Harri]

We are still pretty close, but I do feel we have drifted apart some since me and my husband's separation last fall.  I am not sure how much of an ally she still is.

But like I said, no matter whose "side they are on", I would hope their love and desire to protect their granddaughter would override any of that.

I would suggest not sharing any plans of leaving or custody issues with his mother.  Often there is a lot of denial in the family, we hear about it all the time on these boards.  Sharing with her will not necessarily strengthen any bond that may still be there.

Is there a trusted friend or family member you can tell instead?

[livednlearned]

he likely will not want to or be capable of really taking all of his visitation time with her anyway, and she'll likely be at his parents house a lot if not always.  I think in the beginning he will fight me on everything, like you said, just for the sake of fighting... .to look like a doting father who wants to spend time with his daughter.  But little by little he'll dump her on his parents, or not even be home when she is there if he is living with them for a while.

Keep this in mind when he starts throwing grenades   He'll probably try to rattle you and fight for stuff he can't handle -- you have to ready steady yourself when that stuff starts uncorking.

One strategy is to ask for more than what you consider your bottom line. If your L says it's possible you could get xyz, then ask for xyz +. Go above so that you can negotiate somewhere back to what works for you.

I also found it helped to suggest reasonable consequences for compliance and non-compliance. For example, if he completes 10 weeks of anger management and 10 weeks of parenting classes, he can have overnights with family supervising. If he does not complete the classes by day/date, then it stays status quo, where he sees D4 at his parents' house from day/time to day/time.

If you have evidence and documentation, and if you ask for reasonable arrangements, if you are level-headed and solutions-oriented, if you show proper care and concern for D4, and if your solutions give your H a chance to work on being a better person, then you don't look like a nutter in court. You know, and we know, that your H is not likely to draw within the lines, even when doing so would be easy, and even when doing so would help him.

So you present him with reasonable options knowing that reasonable is pretty hard for someone who struggles to regulate anger.

I want to be truthful about his behavior and I want people to understand that he is not a great dad and he does do these things, but it feels wrong to say he is an immediate danger to her all the time and I am hoping the courts see stuff like this a lot, where the father probably is ok to get time with their child, but maybe isn't trustworthy enough or calm enough to be alone with them all the time.

Think of yourself as a competent person who will help figure out the best path forward with an expert who knows how to present those ideas to the court, to help you make your case. There are some things you won't be able to do -- getting sole custody with no visitation for him isn't something you could reasonably get the first bite of the apple. But being 7 steps ahead and having some suggestions about how your H could earn back the privilege of being a good dad -- that's something you can do. Your L may say, Well if you want to get this and that, it will take time and we might need a custody eval, or since you have this evidence, we don't need that thing there. Let's request that he does this class and that treatment program, and get your D4 into play therapy to help her cope with stuff. He can participate in her therapy as part of his treatment. If he doesn't comply, we go back to court with this or that.

I am wondering if I tell my therapist about it, but he knows I am taking steps to leave, if he would not report it to CPS.

Maybe I am watching too much Sopranos   but what if you say, "I have a friend. She has a D. Her husband is doing these things to the child. What do you think?"

I've thought about telling my mother-in-law, but I don't know.

I agree with Harri. Don't tell her.

Because:

She is a very good MIL

and

She does know he has been emotionally and physically abusive to me, and ... .she maybe didn't do as much as I would hope she would do

means on some level it is acceptable that you were abused.

This is not to say she is a bad person, only that she is not someone advocating for you.

she was definitely upset to hear and assured me it was not acceptable.

Dollars to donuts she knows on some level he was and is, and is going to continue being abusive. It was maybe a surprise to hear it said out loud, but my experience when there is DV and abuse -- the family knows.

The family does not want to shine light on the abuse, but the family knows.

But like I said, no matter whose "side they are on", I would hope their love and desire to protect their granddaughter would override any of that.  

There was DV in my family of origin, and my family would do everything within their powers to keep things status quo, even with the abuse, because the devil you know is better than the devil you don't.

Your MIL will probably be wonderful with your daughter, and be protective, but when it comes to handling her son, MIL is not looking like an ally. She may even be afraid of her son.

Dysfunctional family systems triangulate a lot. Your MIL may do whatever she needs to do to protect her time with D4. For all you know, she may ally with her son if he threatens to take D4 away from her.

It's better to not create allegiances, imo.

Work out what your goals are, then work out a strategy (with plan a, plan b, plan c), then think about tactics that might help you shine lots of light on what's going on. Document a lot.

Use these boards  

You have lots of friends here to walk with you.

If there is a DV survivor group, either in person or online, that might also be a place to talk about what you've experienced.

And be careful what you write to people -- my ex used emails i wrote to him before the divorce, and you really don't want to hear that stuff read in court 

[ForeverDad]

One strategy is to ask for more than what you consider your bottom line. If your L says it's possible you could get xyz, then ask for xyz +. Go above so that you can negotiate somewhere back to what works for you.

We reasonably normal people have wonderful qualities (sense of fairness, empathy, etc) that can sabotage us in high conflict scenarios.  You don't walk into family court trying to be fair.  (Your ex almost certainly won't be!)  No, you walk in knowing what you figure to be best for you and your children - and advocating for it!  Have the poor behavior documentation with you even if it isn't all used.  You will get lots of collective wisdom, input and support here, we've "been there and done that".  To repeat... .Sorry, check your fairness and timidity at the door, don't sabotage yourself or your case.  You need to be Mama Bear (or Daddy Bear) fighting for your kids.

When you are in court, propose solutions, practical alternatives to the issues you currently have.  Maybe not at first, but over time the judge will come to grasp that you're the Problem Solver and seriously consider your solutions.  Yes, you won't win every issue, but if you remember to have the most urgent issues handled first (court hearing are often brief, sometimes only a half hour) then you will get progress.

If you have evidence and documentation, and if you ask for reasonable arrangements, if you are level-headed and solutions-oriented, if you show proper care and concern for D4, and if your solutions give your H a chance to work on being a better person, then you don't look like a nutter in court. You know, and we know, that your H is not likely to draw within the lines, even when doing so would be easy, and even when doing so would help him.

This is about "My children need me and my parenting", not "I need my children".  Your ex may put himself first but the court is far more concerned, or ought to be, with what is best for the children.

Strangely, my ex properly said our child needed her.  I've always wondered whether she was coached.  She was very definite and possessive about our son being "My son!"

And be careful what you write to people -- my ex used emails I wrote to him before the divorce, and you really don't want to hear that stuff read in court 

Avoid making promises that you can't guarantee or worry are too appeasing.  Especially not legal ones.  Early in a case we may be too appeasing, too compliant or too anxious for a deal.  For example, don't sign any legal papers where you sign over the deed to the house, title to the cars, parenting time matters, etc.  Anything with any sort of legal ramification, legal or custodial, confidentially run past your lawyer... .and us here in peer support too!

[WantToBeFree]

I would suggest not sharing any plans of leaving or custody issues with his mother.  Often there is a lot of denial in the family, we hear about it all the time on these boards.  Sharing with her will not necessarily strengthen any bond that may still be there.

Is there a trusted friend or family member you can tell instead?

I agree, thank you for pointing this out.  It made sense in my head, because as you all said, we try too hard to be appeasing, and I kind of feel like I am disappointing her when I think about leaving.  I guess because I have always viewed her as a strong woman and I value her opinion.  But this is MY life and MY child, so I need to do what is best for us. 

As far as telling someone else.  I don't know.  I've thought about telling my best friend.  She's actually preparing to leave her husband as well, so I know she would be supportive.  I'm just so afraid to admit it, I'm so ashamed that I "let" this happen, despite knowing it is not my fault.  I know she won't judge me and I know she'll be there for me, but as anyone knows that's been there, it's so hard to say the words.

I also thought about telling my stepmom whom I'm very close to, but I feel like it's a huge burden to put on her, and ask her to not tell my dad.  And I am pretty sure she will tell him, just out of love and concern for me.  I do not want my dad to know, again, the shame... .he raised me to be strong and independent, and I am just not sure I can handle him knowing what I've been living with all these years.  And again, I know he will support me, so it's really my own struggles with myself that are keeping me from telling anyone.  But I will think about it.  Thank you! 

[WantToBeFree]

Keep this in mind when he starts throwing grenades   He'll probably try to rattle you and fight for stuff he can't handle -- you have to ready steady yourself when that stuff starts uncorking.

One strategy is to ask for more than what you consider your bottom line. If your L says it's possible you could get xyz, then ask for xyz +. Go above so that you can negotiate somewhere back to what works for you.

I also found it helped to suggest reasonable consequences for compliance and non-compliance. For example, if he completes 10 weeks of anger management and 10 weeks of parenting classes, he can have overnights with family supervising. If he does not complete the classes by day/date, then it stays status quo, where he sees D4 at his parents' house from day/time to day/time.

If you have evidence and documentation, and if you ask for reasonable arrangements, if you are level-headed and solutions-oriented, if you show proper care and concern for D4, and if your solutions give your H a chance to work on being a better person, then you don't look like a nutter in court. You know, and we know, that your H is not likely to draw within the lines, even when doing so would be easy, and even when doing so would help him.

So you present him with reasonable options knowing that reasonable is pretty hard for someone who struggles to regulate anger.

Think of yourself as a competent person who will help figure out the best path forward with an expert who knows how to present those ideas to the court, to help you make your case. There are some things you won't be able to do -- getting sole custody with no visitation for him isn't something you could reasonably get the first bite of the apple. But being 7 steps ahead and having some suggestions about how your H could earn back the privilege of being a good dad -- that's something you can do. Your L may say, Well if you want to get this and that, it will take time and we might need a custody eval, or since you have this evidence, we don't need that thing there. Let's request that he does this class and that treatment program, and get your D4 into play therapy to help her cope with stuff. He can participate in her therapy as part of his treatment. If he doesn't comply, we go back to court with this or that.
 

Maybe I am watching too much Sopranos   but what if you say, "I have a friend. She has a D. Her husband is doing these things to the child. What do you think?"

I agree with Harri. Don't tell her.

Because:

and

means on some level it is acceptable that you were abused.

This is not to say she is a bad person, only that she is not someone advocating for you.

Dollars to donuts she knows on some level he was and is, and is going to continue being abusive. It was maybe a surprise to hear it said out loud, but my experience when there is DV and abuse -- the family knows.

The family does not want to shine light on the abuse, but the family knows.

There was DV in my family of origin, and my family would do everything within their powers to keep things status quo, even with the abuse, because the devil you know is better than the devil you don't.

Your MIL will probably be wonderful with your daughter, and be protective, but when it comes to handling her son, MIL is not looking like an ally. She may even be afraid of her son.

Dysfunctional family systems triangulate a lot. Your MIL may do whatever she needs to do to protect her time with D4. For all you know, she may ally with her son if he threatens to take D4 away from her.

It's better to not create allegiances, imo.

Work out what your goals are, then work out a strategy (with plan a, plan b, plan c), then think about tactics that might help you shine lots of light on what's going on. Document a lot.

Use these boards  

You have lots of friends here to walk with you.

If there is a DV survivor group, either in person or online, that might also be a place to talk about what you've experienced.

And be careful what you write to people -- my ex used emails i wrote to him before the divorce, and you really don't want to hear that stuff read in court 

Wow, this is all such good advice.  Yes, the brief meeting I have had with my lawyer, she did mention the tactic of asking for more, so that we can likely get the lesser amount we wanted.  I really like the idea of requesting that he complete so many weeks of anger management and parenting classes before receiving a certain aspect of custody.  That is an excellent idea.  He's done a couple of those things in the past, but never made it more than a couple weeks, so the chances of him successfully completing those things is slim.  I also like the idea of requesting that he only see D4 at his parents' house until he has earned the right to have her for overnights or one on one time... .and again, will likely not get to the point where he will be able to earn those privileges.

He'll be the guy that says how much he loves and wants to be with his daughter, but not do what he needs to do.  A few weeks ago he took her to swim lessons (after much arguing and bellyaching and even questioning why I couldn't take her) and they didn't even get there before he had pics on FB, showing the world what a "good dad" he is for taking his daughter to swim lessons, lessons that HE is very adamant she has (I am too, but he's way more opinionated about it) but doesn't feel the need to be the one to take her. 

I really do not want, nor ever expected to get sole custody or try to keep him from ever seeing her.  As I said, I don't think he is a good dad, but I do not fear for her immediate safety during the times she is with him.  I guess I was just unsure of what to ask for.  I didn't know how much and in what capacity is safe or recommended for her to be with him, and I didn't want to appear as if I am not trying to protect her, but I also don't want to go the other extreme and paint the picture that he is extremely dangerous to her.  I'd love for her to have a better relationship with her dad, but I also want measures in place to make sure she is safe and protected from as much of his BS as possible.  So thanks so much for the suggestions for custody and visitation.

You're right, as much as my MIL may not want to admit it, she likely already knows there is abuse, or at least was not particularly surprised when I told her.  I don't know for certain what his childhood was growing up, but he has said on several occasions how I saved his relationship with his parents, because he still lived at home (at 28) when we started dating.  Him moving out basically allowed his parents to be able to tolerate him on the limited basis they saw him.  I don't know if or how much DV there was or wasn't, but I am almost certain there was some, or at least some aggressive moments like punching walls (we have plenty of holes in walls and doors in our house) and such.  When I was pregnant with D4, we were at his parents house with his sister's family and his niece, celebrating his birthday. 

He had been drinking quite a bit, which I think his mom wants to believe is when he does this stuff (it escalates it, but he can be plenty enraged stone cold sober, and on the flip side he can be very fun and happy with alcohol).  His sister said something that bothered him, he got loud and his mom tried to diffuse it but it made him even more mad.  He yelled even more, threw his phone on the floor and broke it and picked up a dining room chair and smashed it on the floor into pieces, all in front of our young nieces and nephew. 

His dad was pissed, saying he cannot do this in their home, they got in each other's faces and his dad was threatening to call the cops, and his mom was trying to get between them, pleading with them to stop.  His dad walked away, and went in the pool, clothes and all, and just stayed in there for the longest time, to cool off... .literally.  My uBPD H went outside on the porch and called his best friend to come get him.  I was crying, his mom was crying, everyone was shocked by what just happened.  I am pretty sure that was a glimpse into what his fights with his dad and/or mom was in the past, so yeah, I am sure they know of his anger and propensity to DV.

There was also an incident many years ago, he and I were at my co-workers party and he again had drank too much, and he flipped out about a joke I made.  He didn't full on hit me or anything, but it was pretty evident to anyone that witnessed our fight as we were leaving that there was likely DV in our relationship.  When we got in the car, he was screaming at me, accusing me of cheating on me (which I have no clue where that came from) and was pushing me and hit my head into the car window a few times.  I was so scared, it overrode any fear I had of asking for help, and I called his parents even though it was about 1am.  We drove home and they met us at our house, and talked to us for a while, trying to calm him down.  When he wouldn't take their offer for him to go with them for the night, I said I would go, and I went with them and stayed at their house for the night.  So yeah, it definitely should not be a surprise to them that there is DV.  So most likely they're trying to ignore it, hoping it goes away.  So, even more reason to not try to confide in my MIL.  I try to remind myself that I have plenty of support from my own family and friends, and it is not my job to get them to agree with me or like me. 

I like that suggestion for asking my T about the abuse.  Even if he suspects it's about me and my D4, I'm assuming he cannot nor would not make the call based on that.  I love The Sopranos too   Talk about a dysfunctional family though!

Thanks for the heads up about watching what I write.  We text a lot, so yes, I definitely need to keep that in mind.  <3

[WantToBeFree]

We reasonably normal people have wonderful qualities (sense of fairness, empathy, etc) that can sabotage us in high conflict scenarios.  You don't walk into family court trying to be fair.  (Your ex almost certainly won't be!)  No, you walk in knowing what you figure to be best for you and your children - and advocating for it!  Have the poor behavior documentation with you even if it isn't all used.  You will get lots of collective wisdom, input and support here, we've "been there and done that".  To repeat... .Sorry, check your fairness and timidity at the door, don't sabotage yourself or your case.  You need to be Mama Bear (or Daddy Bear) fighting for your kids.

When you are in court, propose solutions, practical alternatives to the issues you currently have.  Maybe not at first, but over time the judge will come to grasp that you're the Problem Solver and seriously consider your solutions.  Yes, you won't win every issue, but if you remember to have the most urgent issues handled first (court hearing are often brief, sometimes only a half hour) then you will get progress.

This is about "My children need me and my parenting", not "I need my children".  Your ex may put himself first but the court is far more concerned, or ought to be, with what is best for the children.

Strangely, my ex properly said our child needed her.  I've always wondered whether she was coached.  She was very definite and possessive about our son being "My son!"

Avoid making promises that you can't guarantee or worry are too appeasing.  Especially not legal ones.  Early in a case we may be too appeasing, too compliant or too anxious for a deal.  For example, don't sign any legal papers where you sign over the deed to the house, title to the cars, parenting time matters, etc.  Anything with any sort of legal ramification, legal or custodial, confidentially run past your lawyer... .and us here in peer support too!

Thank you, all good advice.  I tend to think if I show him how reasonable I am (saying he can have his car and the basement furniture, etc) then he will also be reasonable... .but obviously we are not dealing with level headed people who can fairly and calmly split assets and such.  If they were, I guess we wouldn't be looking to leave them.  I know his moods will swing... .one day he'll be so sad and sorry (or feeling sorry for himself) that he'll say I can have everything, he won't fight me for anything.  But other days I am sure he will fight me for every last dust bunny in the house.  Plus, he will also have his parents, who will surely make sure he fights for what they deem to be his, and his lawyer who will be telling him he deserves all of this stuff. 

[Gemsforeyes]

Dear WantToBeFree-
I was engaging with you on the other board and you mentioned this thread, so I came here to read.  I sincerely hope that neither you nor the other posters take what I'm going to say in the wrong way; and it could be that my PTSD is on full alert... .so if that's the case, I do apologize.  It's been a bad week.  But here goes... .

From what you write about your uBPD H's behavior, both verbal, and especially physically toward your precious D4, he has crossed the line.  You are apparently no longer his sole target for abuse.  What loving father pushes his child into a piece of furniture with his foot?  What guarantee does he have that a 4-year old will have enough coordination to NOT land on her face on a hard floor?  The fact that she did not cry or create a fuss over his action does not mean his pushing her wasn't dangerous or physically abusive.

Four year-olds have a voice.  She can repeat the curse words he has threatened her with.  She can recall and actually relay what has been done to her.  She can tell her grandmother, your MIL, who knows her son is abusive.  As someone said... .MIL may be afraid of her own son.

And that MIL could actually be the one to call CPS, whose investigators would want to know why D4's mom did not remove her child from a potentially dangerous situation.  I don't mean to be harsh.  Please know that.  But children CAN be removed from the non-abusing parent, because she is living with the abuser.  We've seen real examples on these boards.

So please... .don't fret about how uBPD H's future visitation will be handled, how many video games he plays, or whether or not he'll comply with some potential future court ordered anger management or parenting class.  We can twist ourselves inside out for years guessing what the outcome of divorce settlements will be... .it doesn't matter, none of it matters if the most precious thing is ripped from you.

Please disregard how your stepmom's opinion of you may be altered or that your dad may become worried.  It's important that your truth be told to YOUR family.  NOT his mother.

Yes, you love your husband.  I understand that.  But here's the big thing... .it's not quite the same, I know... .I remember the horrible stuff that happened to me when I was little as if it were yesterday.   And I'm 60 now.  Those things were done to me at the hands of my best friends' father, and it was my little crying voice to my own mom and dad that finally made it stop.  That man had me so petrified.

You don't have to "hate" him.  You don't have to use the word "divorce" if that concept is too painful right now.  You can leave with compassion, and ask that he obtain intense therapy and perhaps one day reunite?  But please, just make sure that in trying to preserve "reputations" and spare feelings, you don't sacrifice the most important thing you've ever created.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[Panda39]

As far as telling someone else.  I don't know.  I've thought about telling my best friend.  She's actually preparing to leave her husband as well, so I know she would be supportive.  I'm just so afraid to admit it, I'm so ashamed that I "let" this happen, despite knowing it is not my fault.  I know she won't judge me and I know she'll be there for me, but as anyone knows that's been there, it's so hard to say the words.

I also thought about telling my stepmom whom I'm very close to, but I feel like it's a huge burden to put on her, and ask her to not tell my dad.  And I am pretty sure she will tell him, just out of love and concern for me.  I do not want my dad to know, again, the shame... .he raised me to be strong and independent, and I am just not sure I can handle him knowing what I've been living with all these years.  And again, I know he will support me, so it's really my own struggles with myself that are keeping me from telling anyone.  But I will think about it.  Thank you! 

Please disregard how your stepmom's opinion of you may be altered or that your dad may become worried.  It's important that your truth be told to YOUR family.  NOT his mother.

Hi Wanttobefree,

I'm also going to encourage you to tell your father, step-mother and friend what has been going on.  I get the shame, I was married to an alcoholic and hid it in my co-dependency.  I felt that I couldn't ask for help, that I was an adult, this was my marriage, my problem and I could fix it (fix him).  I stayed trapped in a marriage 20 years that I knew was dead in the water year 3.  I was trapped not by my husband, I was trapped by myself and my own way of thinking. 

Once I changed my way of thinking and began reaching out to friends and family, when I pushed my fear and embarrassment aside, and when I was vulnerable enough to ask for help, you know what happened?  I received it from everyone I asked and I even received it from others that I didn't ask, people that had gone through something similar and offered support.  I found out what friendship really meant, I found that I was loved just as I was flaws and all, I found out that my critical mother could even step up when I really needed her.  I felt like I had just the right team to get me through my divorce.

By telling others and asking for support you are helping yourself and your daughter not only because of the help they can give you but also by shining a light on your husband and his behaviors.

I know you feel shame, but who is being physically abusive here?  You need to be very clear who the problem is and who should be feeling shame.  Your husband is the problem and by reaching out to others for help you can be the solution, for your daughter and yourself. 

Panda39

[ForeverDad]

One of the difficult issues with parenting after a divorce is how to minimize the risk of us being obstructed or blocked until the ex gets what he/she wants.  Courts generally assume post-marriage cooperation, an immense problem in our cases where obstruction, blocking and sabotage are the typical behaviors.

Temp orders... .It's not that hard for a parent to get temp custody.  My ex did and all she had to say was "I work from home."  She wasn't asked whether or why I had temp possession of the home because she had a Threat of DV case pending against her.  She also didn't mention she she was earning only about $150-$200 per month with her MLM business.  Sadly for me, the court was not interested in changing the temp order and it was two years before the Final Decree improved things.

Final orders... .Most of us had to start with joint custody.  Courts prefer that since supposedly neither parent is made to feel an outsider or loser.  (However, if your ex is willing to grant you full custody, a court is unlikely to nullify such a choice.)  So, how to make joint custody workable and practical?  Can you try for Decision Making or Tie Breaker status?  Both are still joint custody (satisfying the court's aim to avoid making a parent feel left out) but in practical ways it is virtual sole custody in practice.  You either ask or notify the other parent and after pondering the response you can proceed with your decision.  No waiting for months for court or a professional to render an opinion or decision of the matter.  With DM or TB you get to proceed as needed while it's up to the ex to decide whether to oppose your decision by taking it to the court or the appropriate professional.

[WantToBeFree]

Dear WantToBeFree-
I was engaging with you on the other board and you mentioned this thread, so I came here to read.  I sincerely hope that neither you nor the other posters take what I'm going to say in the wrong way; and it could be that my PTSD is on full alert... .so if that's the case, I do apologize.  It's been a bad week.  But here goes... .

From what you write about your uBPD H's behavior, both verbal, and especially physically toward your precious D4, he has crossed the line.  You are apparently no longer his sole target for abuse.  What loving father pushes his child into a piece of furniture with his foot?  What guarantee does he have that a 4-year old will have enough coordination to NOT land on her face on a hard floor?  The fact that she did not cry or create a fuss over his action does not mean his pushing her wasn't dangerous or physically abusive.

Four year-olds have a voice.  She can repeat the curse words he has threatened her with.  She can recall and actually relay what has been done to her.  She can tell her grandmother, your MIL, who knows her son is abusive.  As someone said... .MIL may be afraid of her own son.

And that MIL could actually be the one to call CPS, whose investigators would want to know why D4's mom did not remove her child from a potentially dangerous situation.  I don't mean to be harsh.  Please know that.  But children CAN be removed from the non-abusing parent, because she is living with the abuser.  We've seen real examples on these boards.

So please... .don't fret about how uBPD H's future visitation will be handled, how many video games he plays, or whether or not he'll comply with some potential future court ordered anger management or parenting class.  We can twist ourselves inside out for years guessing what the outcome of divorce settlements will be... .it doesn't matter, none of it matters if the most precious thing is ripped from you.

Please disregard how your stepmom's opinion of you may be altered or that your dad may become worried.  It's important that your truth be told to YOUR family.  NOT his mother.

Yes, you love your husband.  I understand that.  But here's the big thing... .it's not quite the same, I know... .I remember the horrible stuff that happened to me when I was little as if it were yesterday.   And I'm 60 now.  Those things were done to me at the hands of my best friends' father, and it was my little crying voice to my own mom and dad that finally made it stop.  That man had me so petrified.

You don't have to "hate" him.  You don't have to use the word "divorce" if that concept is too painful right now.  You can leave with compassion, and ask that he obtain intense therapy and perhaps one day reunite?  But please, just make sure that in trying to preserve "reputations" and spare feelings, you don't sacrifice the most important thing you've ever created.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

You're right, and I take no offense to it.  I need to hear the harsh truth, because after so many years, my brain tends to rationalize things, though I do still have the wherewithal to know his behavior toward her cannot be rationalized in any possible way.  But I do sometimes still fall victim to the lies of thinking, "well maybe it's possible we could still work things out" when I know full well that is not true at all, and I have to remind myself of that every single day. 

 

[livednlearned]

Why Does He Do That: Inside the Minds of Angry Controlling Men by Lundy Bancroft is a survivor-compassionate view of how an abuser thinks and acts.

In the book, there is a chapter about how an abuser use parenting to abuse both you and the child.

By hurting your child, he can hurt you.

By tolerating the abuse, you confirm for him that you are weak, which means you are the last person who could help or change him.

It's a vicious cycle.