SD wants to go on an educational trip out of the country.

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

SD will be 16 by the time of the trip. It is for high school (and possibly college) credit. We've discussed it with family and we'd like to make this work for her. The only rub is that her uBPD mom would have to be willing to sign for her passport application and possibly a permission form saying the teacher chaperone could take her out of the country. DH has sole physical custody but they share 50/50 legal.

Our plan is to send his ex an email stating what the trip is, what it's for, what the benefits are to SD, and a link to the site where she can get more information. Then simply state that in order for SD to be able to go, she will need a passport and permission slips signed by both parents. We'll let her know the date by which we need to reserve her spot in the program and ask her to let us know by that date if she is willing to agree or not.

Sound good? Has anyone found language that might help us get a "yes" in a situation like this? DH uses BIFF (sometimes minus the "Friendly", but never rude) exclusively because simply hearing from him at all is often triggering for his ex. So he usually tries to keep it very short. Unfortunately she uses requests for clarification and details as a way to ramp up conflict. It's probably an anxiety response, but that doesn't make it any easier to deal with.

[Nope]

SD will be 16 by the time of the trip. It is for high school (and possibly college) credit. We've discussed it with family and we'd like to make this work for her. The only rub is that her uBPD mom would have to be willing to sign for her passport application and possibly a permission form saying the teacher chaperone could take her out of the country. DH has sole physical custody but they share 50/50 legal.

Our plan is to send his ex an email stating what the trip is, what it's for, what the benefits are to SD, and a link to the site where she can get more information. Then simply state that in order for SD to be able to go, she will need a passport and permission slips signed by both parents. We'll let her know the date by which we need to reserve her spot in the program and ask her to let us know by that date if she is willing to agree or not.

Sound good? Has anyone found language that might help us get a "yes" in a situation like this? DH uses BIFF (sometimes minus the "Friendly", but never rude) exclusively because simply hearing from him at all is often triggering for his ex. So he usually tries to keep it very short. Unfortunately she uses requests for clarification and details as a way to ramp up conflict. It's probably an anxiety response, but that doesn't make it any easier to deal with.

[livednlearned]

Is there a way to have someone from school send a letter stating that SD needs a passport that will require both parents' signatures?

Neutralizing the ask can sometimes help.

I also found it was important to neutralize what I wanted, as much as possible, when trying to get something signed by ex (prior to getting legal custody).

So, letting the school alert her to the need for a passport.

Then maybe following up with, "School says she needs a passport. If she needs both parties to sign, I will sign."

That way, there is no indication whether you are for or against the ask, only that you are aware it exists and will do what is being asked of you.

My ex would usually send handfuls of emails filled with hot lava, but eventually he would get on board, and in between would confuse everyone involved to the point it wasn't clear what he was or wasn't agreeing to... .

[ForeverDad]

If the last date to register was, for example, Sept 15, I'd make sure the communication put a cushion in there, listing maybe Sept 1.  Then she's be less likely to drag it out to the real final moments and put the entire field trip at risk.

I recently renewed my passport.  It took nearly a month to come back, though I didn't pay extra for rush processing.  Be sure you allow enough time for processing (or going to court to get a judge to sign for her if she refuses).  Also, would this be a good time to get one for your son too, or will you wait until he's 16 too?  Under 16 and passports are for only half the time, 5 years rather than 10 years.

[Nope]

It's a multi-tier problem. We really shouldn't sign her up for this in the first place without asking her mom. If we do have to eventually take it to court, it'll probably look better if we ask at the beginning instead of signing SD up, paying the $100 nonrefundable deposit (which is due in about eight days), and then go looking for her mom's compliance.

So, first we need her to agree that SD can even go and then we need to hold her to that agreement. If we can get a "yes", then we have nearly a year to figure everything else out. Or do you think we should sign her up and then act like we assumed it shouldn't be an issue, since it's school related? Then we could probably have the teacher involved get in touch with her about the passport.

If we bring the trip up at all the very first thing uBPDex is going to realize is that SD will needs a passport. Actually, that's probably second to realizing nobody told her anything and she wasn't consulted.

FD - We totally intend to allow for time for obstacles with uBPDex. But this first deadline is very close.

[ForeverDad]

However it works out, I'd suggest you describe or emphasize this as a school-supported, school-related or school-organized field trip, whatever fits best.  Why?  Besides it being less triggering than "something dad wants", almost always courts side with things school-related, a supposedly family-neutral topic.  When I was trying to get majority time, teachers testified about my ex acting out at school, being tardy and obstructing a field trip.  I testified about her constant disparaging and raging comments.  Court gave me majority time but only during the school year.  If I didn't have the school stuff on my side... .

[Nope]

Update:

With advice from here we were able to focus on the educational benefits and kept it neutral to that DH will agree to do the necessary paperwork on his end. It was stated in a way that made it about what the school required for SD to attend the trip.

uBPDex saw the email and immediately text SD to ask "How long have you and *DH's first name* known about this trip?"
Her second question was "How would this effect my visitation next summer?"

Yes, that's how she worded it to SD. SD's immediate comment to me was "There she goes, making it about her." She then went on to tell SD via text that DH won't give her time June or August so if the trip is in July she may not get any visitation. This is a distortion. SD simply stated that she was sure DH would work with her about their visit. To which her mom responded, "We'll see."

We haven't received an email response yet. My guess is uBPDex is debating what price she intends to attempt to extract for her cooperation. And she'll certainly wait until the last minute to tell us what that is. But, fortunately, as suggested, we built a couple of extra days into when we need to know by.

FD - Our policy has always been not to warn her prior to pending litigation. But, if she refuses, DH is thinking about going your route and letting her know that if she won't sign then we'll get the permission we need from the court. ... .And while we're at it we'll revisit child support as well as what she owes in back unreimbursed medical expenses.

[Panda39]

... .But, if she refues, DH is thinking about going your route and letting her know that if she won't sign then we'll get the permission we need from the court. ... .And while we're at it we'll revisit child support as well as what she owes in back unreimbursed medical expenses.

This strategy has worked for my SO... .his uBPDxw was a walking disaster and knew she didn't have a leg to stand on in court, so the threat of court often got her to drop some of the nutty things she was always pushing regarding the girls. 

Hope the leverage works in your case.

Panda39

[Nope]

Update: She agreed, but said that she will not give us a photo copy of her driver's license, which is a required part of the passport application since we'll need a form with her notorized signature.

We decided to kick that can down the road instead of reminding her that we have a photo copy of the front of her DL from court discovery. But we may need a copy of the back. Not sure.

Her primary concern was getting her choice of visitation dates for next summer, so I suspect that after the school firms up their dates for the trip she will probably pick a date for her wedding to her fiance. I hope I'm right, because if she balks later on signing the permission slips then all bets are off for her to get the summer visitation she wants. Leverage.

[livednlearned]

I am almost certain that leverage has a smell

And people who feel powerless can sniff it out ten miles away.

If you could look into the future and see this play out the way you expect, what might you do differently?

Is there a way to give her a deadline?

She always has the ultimate leverage -- saying no.

But BPD psychopathology suggests she must create a way for her power to be used only because she's been victimized.

There may not be anything you can do short of crossing your fingers. I'm not sure what I would do in your shoes, altho modeling for our kids how to deal with disappointment in resilient ways is always a decent booby prize 

[Nope]

Good points L&L.

There is no way to look into a crystal ball of the future. But having said yes in an email knowing we had to put a non-refundable deposit down and agreeing to do the necessary paperwork to make it happen means we can also take this to court if need be. A judge would most certainly sign off on SD being able to go if mom originally said yet and agreed to comply but then changed her mind later for non-trip-specific reasons and we'd already spent the money. The trip isn't until next summer, so we have plenty of time to get the passport and get other permission slips signed... .or go to court.

I do see her possibly going into victim mode as we try to deal with the child support modification debacle that is currently happening. But if she wants to turn both matters into the same issue, we can do that in court. Literally, the most important thing was getting a "yes" because the court will likely honor that "yes", even if she ultimately doesn't. And that is, unfortunately, how we set realistic expectations in these circumstances.

And maybe it's bad parenting, but if SD doesn't get to go and wants to go NC/LC with her mom over it, we're inclined to let her do so. She'll be sixteen by then and when we were discussing that the trip may not happen she was adamant that if her mom was what stood in the way (and not finances or other legitimate reasons) then she was done with her. "She won't come visit me, she doesn't call or text me and just expects me to be the one to call and text her and gets mad when I don't, and she's going on a "family" vacation (with her fiance, his kid, and her two other kids) without me right before I'm supposed to see her this summer. Enough is enough."

[livednlearned]

And maybe it's bad parenting, but if SD doesn't get to go and wants to go NC/LC with her mom over it, we're inclined to let her do so.

If that's bad parenting, have a seat next to me 

S16 is virtually no contact with his dad. Last week we were in the hospital for surgery and doctors discovered a long term health issue that will likely change S16's life. I asked if he would like me to contact his dad and S16 said, "He'll just talk about himself."

My hope is that S16 learns some skills from therapy, whether it's resilience or self-awareness or boundaries. That way, if and when he is ever ready to have a relationship with his dad, he will not set himself up to be crushed again and again.

Your plan sounds good to me 

[Nope]

I'm sorry to hear about your S16 having a health problem. That seems even more horribly unfair given everything else he has to deal with.

SD is making some great strides in counseling. Her T is currently working with her on how to have respectful and loving hard conversations with her uBPD mom. So far it is going well because SD has already learned not to internalize her mom's rages and overreactions. She's come a long way this year.

Earlier today we did find out we have a copy of uBPD's DL, both front and back. Think we'll keep that little fact under wraps for as long as possible. At the very least, reminding her of that will make her really mad.