NonBPD improving children's relationship with BPD parent?

[AnuDay]

For the first time since my ex broke up with me and moved out I am starting to feel that I have a responsibility for improving my daughter's 4,7 relationship with their BPD mom.  I don't know if this is possible at this age or if it is my responsibility. 
Background behind this is that my oldest asked me what I would do if the BPD mom killed her sister.  The question came seemingly out of nowhere.  Of course they have had pushing matches (the mom and daughter 7) and other arguments and fights before, so it is not totally out of nowhere.  I know that a healthy mother daughter relationship is important for the children.  When one parent has BPD this isn't possible, but can I, as a non, do anything to help improve that relationship?  At what age can I start telling my daughter that her mother isn't "fully functioning" or would this do more damage? 

[Mutt]

Hi AnuDay,

I’m sorry that you’re going through this. I can see how difficult it would be to address your oldest. I wouldn’t suggest telling your D7 thatbher mom is not fully functioning she'll sense that on her own later, let her come to thher realization on her own terms. I can’t see how you would be able to repair the r/s between the two is there a particular reason why your ex is so agressive to your D7? I would validate your D7’s feelings, does she talk about it or the oldest?

[Turkish]

That's concerning. How did D7 ask it? Like she was really concerned or in passing?

[AnuDay]

Mutt, I always thought the UBPD mom was aggressive due to her lack of parenting skills.  When I saw the physical altercations happen it was always because one of the kids wanted "a lot" of attention or I guess I should say attention that the mom did not feel like giving.  It seems like from birth my daughters needed a lot of attention and validation.  Sometimes due to the UBPD mom training them that they could have validation and attention at any time.  Things were pretty unregulated for years as far as times that they ate, went to bed, watched tv, played on the ipad.  So sometimes they wanted to be held, play, or fed (bottles or breastmilk) at a time that the mom didn't want to do it.  The BPD mom wouldn't give them the attention so the kids would just force themselves onto the mother.  Then the mother would literally push them away.  I guess I answered my own question in a way... .I never really thought about this, but I guess after so much of this the kids would grow to resent the mom's unpredictable reactions.

That's concerning. How did D7 ask it? Like she was really concerned or in passing?

To give some background we were overlooking a large steep wooded hill and my D4 asked what would I do or what would happen if she died? Not wanting to talk about it I succinctly told her that I would be very sad.  A few minutes later she gets close to a broken storm drain and asks what would happen if she went inside it.  Not wanting to address the issue again I succinctly told her she would die, D7 inquisitively asked "how?" and I said D4 would get stuck.  Then my D7 exuberantly says "Ohhh... .Daddy! Daddy!"  I said "what?" (sensing a strange question was going to be asked and really wanting to get off of the death topic).  Then she asks "What would happen if Mommy killed (D4)?"  I explained that it would be very sad.  Then she asked me "But what would you do?"  I told her I would call the police.  Then she asked what would happen.  I told her that her mom would go to jail.  She didn't seem happy at that answer.  She just said "oh" and dropped the conversation.   

When we all lived together I would oftentimes step in and protect the children when the mom and them were getting a little too physical.  I would yell at the mom and tell her "xxxx is only x years old, you can't do that to her".  Usually it was already too late by then because my daughter would be crying from the pushing or whatever went on and the emotional pain that she felt.  I tried not to step in and intervene too soon; I don't remember why.  I think it's because I would get yelled at or cold shouldered by the BPD mom if I intervened because I guess in her mind I would always "side" with the children. 

This is tough stuff to write.  Glad to get it off my chest.  Living with my UBPD ex was a complete nightmare.

[Turkish]

I'm not a psych, but as a parent,  I think that they both look to you as their Protector, especially given that you defended them in front of their mom.  I would pivot at this point,  and ask,  "why do you say that?" Let them expand upon the feelings that lead them to say something like that.  There's a deeper emotion there which is a target for validation.  That's a dark thing to say for a kid that young. 

This is just my impression of the situation.  I could be wrong.  You're there and I'm not. 

[livednlearned]

D4 asked what would I do or what would happen if she died?

Oof  

That is a hard question.

You will probably get more questions like this, is my guess. My son used to ask me what would I do if he flung himself out of our moving car. What would happen if he stopped breathing. What would happen if he killed himself.

He was 8.

I learned from my T and a child psychologist (son's T) to find out more about the question, since it is an unanswerable question. Similar to Turkish's point, that when you get a question like this with a ton of emotional power, you can ask her if something is troubling her. This helps you see where it leads her, and also helps her figure out that she is responsible for her thoughts. That is something kids don't learn well from a BPD parent.

You can go back and revisit, so says my T. 

I don't know about the developmental stages of kid psychology and the concept of death, but my guess is she is trying to understand something much more simple and in the moment.

[AnuDay]

Thank you Livednlearned and Turk.  I got it.  They need some form of validation.  I just have to figure out what it is.  They may not even feel valued by the UBPD mom now that I think about it. 
Very good point about not learning how to be responsible for their own thoughts.  I understand that about my BPDex.  She wouldn't take responsibility (or blame) for anything.  But I don't understand how kids may not know they are responsible for their thoughts.
What does it mean to teach a young child to be responsible for their thoughts?  What are some examples?  I know I was always taught that I create my own happiness.  Is this what you mean?

[livednlearned]

Example:

My n/BPDx used to say "you love the dog more than me."

My son would parrot the same thing. Sometimes there were variations.

"You love the dog more than me."

":)addy says you love the dog more than us."

Believe me when I say there are so many wrong ways to respond to a comment like that. I know because I tried them all  

So I learned to say, "Wow, that must really hurt to feel that way."

I would say things like, "Is that how you feel?"

"What happened to make you feel that way?"

"I wonder why daddy would say that. How did you feel when he said that?"

Over time, with many many many repetitions of that kind of conversation, he will now say things like, "I think __________. I probably feel that way because _________. It still bothers me. I guess I could _________ if I don't want to keep having ________ happen."

Kids with BPD parents learn to blame other people for how they feel.

We, the nonBPD parents, teach them that they have feelings that are uniquely their's, and help them internalize that it's ok to have those feelings, and to be responsible for what they think and feel.

"You love the dog more than me" is a feeling buried in a thought that is false.

We want our kids to know how they feel and be able to separate what they think versus what other people think, especially when that other person is someone as powerful as a parent.

[AnuDay]

Example:

My n/BPDx used to say "you love the dog more than me."

My son would parrot the same thing. Sometimes there were variations.

"You love the dog more than me."

":)addy says you love the dog more than us."

Believe me when I say there are so many wrong ways to respond to a comment like that. I know because I tried them all  

So I learned to say, "Wow, that must really hurt to feel that way."

I would say things like, "Is that how you feel?"

"What happened to make you feel that way?"

"I wonder why daddy would say that. How did you feel when he said that?"

Over time, with many many many repetitions of that kind of conversation, he will now say things like, "I think __________. I probably feel that way because _________. It still bothers me. I guess I could _________ if I don't want to keep having ________ happen."

Kids with BPD parents learn to blame other people for how they feel.

We, the nonBPD parents, teach them that they have feelings that are uniquely their's, and help them internalize that it's ok to have those feelings, and to be responsible for what they think and feel.

"You love the dog more than me" is a feeling buried in a thought that is false.

We want our kids to know how they feel and be able to separate what they think versus what other people think, especially when that other person is someone as powerful as a parent.

WOW! Awesome.  This is life changing stuff.  You hit the nail on the head.  This is exactly what I have not been doing.  As a father I have been using the "tough it out" approach about half the time.  I thought I was counteracting the smothering that the UBPD mom was doing by making them be tough. But now I see that this isn't exactly what I want to be doing. 

BPD is so complex.  Trying to figure out how to react makes your head spin sometimes.  I will definitely try to validate their feelings using your method.  Thanks a lot.   

[livednlearned]

Just paying it forward  

This isn't my method, it's from books -- I had to go to the pros  

I Don't Have to Make Everything All Better has this one section on validating questions that is brilliant. Two skills for the price of one -- validating feelings and putting responsibility on them to solve their problems (competence).

Power of Validation for Parents is also really good, maybe even more so for you because a lot of the examples are for younger kids.

Don't Alienate the Kids: Raising Emotionally Resilient Kids When One Parent is BPD by Bill Eddy is also a mind blower.

Those are the three best ones for my situation. You might find other ones equally helpful.

Over time, you start to realize that most of the skills get boiled down to empathy empathy empathy. But for those of us who come from homes with BPD, or marriages with BPD, the skills to express empathy go dormant.

You are lucky to be learning this stuff when your girls are young