Do they remember an "episode"? Is there empathy?

[12years]

It just seems like a nasty comment flies out of my huband's mouth who I am pretty certain has BPD, though not diagnosed. And then the minute it's out it's forgotten. Not been said. Or if brought up then it's my fault of course that he would be upset. How can a person just go from hot and cold so quickly? Especially to someone they "love" and are trying to work with?
There's no recall? No empathy for how bad they make you feel? And he sees I avoid, I don't want to be near him, we have seperate bedrooms now, I tip toe around, I duck and cover when I see a storm coming. But, I do also stand up to set boundaries. But, do they not feel what the rest of us feel when saying something hurtful? It may just be too far gone. It's so weird, the person in the night time is not the person in the morning. I wanted to hear others thoughts.

[eggshellfiancee]

I wonder the same thing at times. My husband does remember what he says, but he always feels justified, however there are times when I can tell he has sensed he's crossed the line, because he will be EXTRA nice the next day and avoid bringing it up. On rare occasions he has apologized but that is not usually the case. He thinks he is right. I am not allowed to have an opinion about it.

[12years]

Dear eggshellfiancee:
Thanks for writing! Sometimes I have to write and get validation from others on this site! I am glad you can relate! It's so nutty to have to deal with this reality. It makes you feel like you are not in everyone else in the entire world's reality when this happens in the bubble of your home or relationship. Ugh.
I feel slightly drugged and just keep on slogging through each day and the horrible situations, not knowing when something is going to occur, I have defenses up, but, sometimes the walls are a bit down and an arrow gets through. It has worn on me and I think I need to end it. I have a decompression period and calm when I am not near him, as in I am on a vacation, or he is gone on a business trip, or I luckily don't have to see him at night. Or in the morning, and this means it is a whole day of not dealing with him. Is it this bad for others? I tried to connect again for several years but it didn't work. He's too much in his own world to understand what I am saying. I guess he is going to be by himself soon and then I suppose it will be much worse. Or maybe better? He likes interaction even if it's not positive. I would choose to be by myself. Even regular conversations are laced with bad vibes and negative comments. And god forbid I call him at work. He does a strange thing of being normal for a few minutes then lashes out. I think because it's gone on so long now. How long do people do this? I don't have my own money so we'd have to divide it all and the assets. And I hadn't been able to work as we were out of the country. So, I have been building myself back up to get back into the work force. But, how do you know when it's time to pull the trigger? I guess I will always be blamed for the divorce. But, I do think, if he was my boyfriend, I would have broken up with him SO long ago, it's not even funny. There are two kids involved. And they are noticing. Big Time. I just feel drugged and brainwashed and not able to make the move though have taken small steps to. It just seems odd that when it comes down to it, they can't feel what others do, or even consider it. And seem to only remember what suits them. And it's always my fault.

In any case, how long have you been hanging in there eggshellfiancee? I'd be interested to hear your story and connect.

Best,
12years

[zachira]

You are puzzled and hurt by how your husband goes from neutral to just plain ballistic within seconds, and how he has no perspective on his behavior and blames it all on you. You are dealing with probably the most challenging aspect of borderline behavior: the melt downs that seem to come out of nowhere are soon forgotten, as if the bystanders do not need to have their hurt feelings recognized and repaired. You are not alone in your bewilderment and hurt. There are many people on this site who are/have been in similar situations to yours. Keep us posted and let us know how we can help. We are here to listen and support you.

[Cat Familiar]

What I’ve realized with these types of episodes with my husband is that he seems to feel entitled to lash out at me with unkind words or a sullen attitude just because he feels “bad”.

Lots of times I’ve asked him what he’s thinking/how he’s feeling and he doesn’t go into specifics, he just admits he feels “bad”. I used to believe that he was withholding information from me, and sometimes he does, but now I believe that at times he really doesn’t know why he’s feeling the way he does.

I cannot change him or his attitudes, contrary to my previous belief and my lifetime’s attempts to be a people pleaser. But what I can do is remove myself from his orbit when he speaks and behaves this way. In doing so, I’ve minimized his impact upon me. He’s welcome to have his bad mood alone. And in removing his audience, he seems to shift gears faster and get on a better track of returning to being a pleasant and kind person.

[zachira]

You are respecting yourself and your boundaries when you remove yourself from your husband's verbal tirade. You are smart in recognizing that he tries to make you feel bad when he is feeling bad. By not serving as a vessel for his projections, you are helping him as well. Maybe you can let him know how much you appreciate it when he treats you with kindness and respect, if indeed he ever does.

[Cat Familiar]

By not serving as a vessel for his projections, you are helping him as well. Maybe you can let him know how much you appreciate it when he treats you with kindness and respect, if indeed he ever does.

Yes, I "train" my husband, just like I train horses. If I let them get away with disrespect, then they become the alpha--not good when they outweigh me by nearly 10 times.

Fortunately he can be very kind and respectful, so I only need to not reinforce the unkind words and bad attitudes.

My first husband was quite different--BPD on steroids. Yet, like most of us here, that relationship didn't start out that way. I did reinforce his bad behavior by catering to him, fearing him, appeasing him, tolerating him, cajoling him, trying to give him what he wanted, despite how he behaved. Certainly a mistake I hope to never repeat in any context.

[Fireguy]

From my understanding, the part 1 (reasonable, loving if not adoring you and praising you) is not even aware of part 2 (hate, loathing devaluing) and vice versa. That is where some of the craziness comes in. They may not understand that you are still dealing with the latest "hate" episode and are confused (if not offended) at your actions or behaviors. And then the cycle begins yet again.

[Cat Familiar]

To go back to the original question of this thread, I think they can and do "remember an 'episode'" and perhaps why they can act as if they don't--it's because they're incredibly ashamed of their behavior--so ashamed that they can't tolerate feeling that way and the easiest way to overcome that is to blame the other--us!

Both my BPD husbands have confessed to feeling badly about some of the things they've done. Not very often. And in the case of the first BPD husband (the one on BPD steroids)--even though he could feel guilty about his behavior, it wasn't enough to make him change.

My current husband does seem to have remorse about not being his best at times and does try to do better. Really, I think that's all we humans can ask for--some self-awareness and desire to improve ourselves.

As for empathy, I've been flabbergasted by pwBPD having empathy for strangers and not for their loved ones. Of course, part of the issue of having empathy for their loved ones would involve seeing their part in the drama (or trauma) that caused their beloveds to feel pain. A stretch too far it seems.

[Cat Familiar]

They may not understand that you are still dealing with the latest "hate" episode and are confused (if not offended) at your actions or behaviors. And then the cycle begins yet again.

Yes, I think that's true. They can nurse a grudge for years, yet expect we're supposed to be done with our distress (due to their behavior) immediately.

[AskingWhy]

"Object relations problems" are a part of BPD.  This is the "Jekyll and Hyde" part of it.  Just as Dr. Jekyll had not recollection of his turning into Mr. Hyde. so it is when our partners dyregulate and hate us, causing them to do and say harmful things.

pwBPD are always in the moment.  They cannot perceive things in the past nor anticipate the future.

A baby has "object permanence" concept of the world.  When he sees a toy, he reaches for it.  When you put it behind your back, to him, it has disappeared.  A toddler will go and search for a hidden toy.

Our BPD partners are like emotional infants in that respect.  Infants know two emotions:  rage and contentment.  That is the way BPDs are, too.

[zachira]

AskingWhy: Such a powerful insight. I agree with you that people with BPD are like infants and they have developed no object permanence. There is no past or future, and only rage or contentment. This insight fits perfectly with my mother's inability to validate her infants. Indeed we were left in the crib to fend for ourselves all day, and my two siblings have BPD, as well as mom. My maternal grandmother didn't seem to have the capacity to enjoy babies or children. Thank you for helping me to better understand why some of my family members have BPD, and some of the challenges I am facing.

[SummerStorm]

It's hard to tell, and each episode may have a different outcome.  My BPD friend knows she's hurt me, has admitted she's put me through hell, but only once in four years has she mentioned a specific incident. 

Her ex told me that she would physically attack him at night and wake up the next morning as if nothing happened. 

With my BPD friend, I think she is able to somehow place the blame on someone else, even if she can't actually name a person to blame.  Last month, she hurt her mom's dog pretty badly and later asked how the dog was doing.  When her mom told her that she had to take her to the vet and that she had to be put on medication, my friend replied, "Jeez, what a mess."  So, she knew the dog was hurt but managed to believe that someone else must have done it.

Sometimes, they are able to just block it out completely.  My friend also physically attacked her mom last month, and her mom ended up with a huge bruise on her arm.  The next day, my friend asked what happened to her arm.  Her mom told her what happened, and my friend just walked away.  I would imagine that had to do with her shame kicking in, but who knows?

Regardless of whether he remembers or not, the important thing is that your husband's actions are upsetting you, and that's never right.  Stay strong and keep posting.  We all know what you're going through.

[AskingWhy]

AskingWhy: Such a powerful insight. I agree with you that people with BPD are like infants and they have developed no object permanence. There is no past or future, and only rage or contentment. This insight fits perfectly with my mother's inability to validate her infants. Indeed we were left in the crib to fend for ourselves all day, and my two siblings have BPD, as well as mom. My maternal grandmother didn't seem to have the capacity to enjoy babies or children. Thank you for helping me to better understand why some of my family members have BPD, and some of the challenges I am facing.

Zachira, I am glad this explanation helped.

I am sorry you had to witness this in your own family.  Many of us her have.

Also, with empathy, like NPDs, BPDs also have very limited empathy.  Like small children, they cannot understand empathy--just like a small child does not understand the concept of sharing.  In my case, my uBPD/uNPD H--in addition to splitting and dysregulating--only has empathy for his adult children.  They abuse him emotionally, blackmailing him for money (denying his access to grandchildren, silent treatment, etc.) yet he constantly wants to see them and hear from them, and gives in to their demands.  (I suspect several of them are in the BPD/NPD spectrum, as their mother is likely NPD.)

This happens because the pwBPD sees the children as extensions of himself.  He has no boundaries with them and they treat him like a doormat.

[BetterLanes]

12years, I think that my H's logic is that he cannot help and is not responsible for what he does/says when he is angry, and I should not have done the thing that made him angry in the first place (which could be something very minor of course). So I know if I raise the issue afterwards, I will just receive extra blame for doing the initial trigger (or some general trigger that is also my fault such as the house being untidy).

Regarding CatFamiliar's comment about having empathy for strangers and not loved ones, my H will attach quite strongly to female friends who are psychologically needy and show lots of concern for them and perform a variety of helpful actions for them on request. For me it's the converse, a show of concern is rare and often expressed in terms of the impact on him, and I only make requests for assistance if I really have to due to the expectation of a negative response. I don't think anything actually romantic or physical has gone on with any of these friends, so I don't think that's what it is about. It's always seemed strange to me, like he has a need on some level to do these behaviors that you would expect from a courteous and attentive man, but finds it hard to direct them to me.

[zachira]

What I am hearing while reading others posts is that some people with BPD/NPD traits are extremely generous with others, and then treat other people just horribly. So maybe one of the best ways to protect ourselves is to really look at how a person treats everyone. I had a man as a so called friend for awhile who did all kinds of nice things for me. Over a period of time, I began to realize he had no empathy, and some how he relished the role of public do gooder  while treating his family and me at times very badly.

[Enabler]

I began to realize he had no empathy, and some how he relished the role of public do gooder  while treating his family and me at times very badly.

I've experienced this, as though the outside world is rewarding. The 2 way transactions of doing good, feeling good, other people doing good and one showing gratitude works in the outside world... .but facing into the family unit the transaction does not work.

As mentioned by BetterLanes yesterday on another thread, myself, and the kids are now seen as bars on her metaphorical cage with which to gnaw at. There is no need for mutual respect for your jailer and captor. Myself and the kids are just something to be endured with contempt... .despite there being no doors on this prison, she gets gourmet dinners and there's a bus service to the pub where drinks are free! The illusion that we're the cause of her pain. 

[AskingWhy]

What I am hearing while reading others posts is that some people with BPD/NPD traits are extremely generous with others, and then treat other people just horribly. So maybe one of the best ways to protect ourselves is to really look at how a person treats everyone. I had a man as a so called friend for awhile who did all kinds of nice things for me. Over a period of time, I began to realize he had no empathy, and some how he relished the role of public do gooder  while treating his family and me at times very badly.

My H will rage at me when he dysregulates, and the smallest trigger can set him off.  He can have a bad day at work, be angry with his dysfunctional FOO, and then project his rage and disappointment toward me.

H's children, on the other hand, abuse him without shame.  When they want money, gifts or favors, they call or visit and gush all over him.  Then they disappear.  They say how much they love him, etc. but then later forget his birthday or Fathers Day, and send cards as afterthoughts days later.  He still takes these cards and treasures them.  Late cards are an insult.

I do things to try to make him happy, but as a BPD, he really is not happy with who he is, let alone know who he is.  I trip all over myself and who gets all the accolades?  His children. (I suspect one is BPD due to suicide attempt, one is NPD due to being a bully in the workplace.  One is in and out of rehab and might be BPD.)

[pearlsw]

Hi all,

I think my SO often genuinely can’t remember. He is surprised sometimes when I tell him things he’s said or done. And hearing about it again is so painful for him he can’t really listen.

Tough part is I do remember. A lot of it. But this just is how it is. This is his brain. He can’t remember a lot of his life. He functions amazingly well in other areas of his life though. Or so it seems!

I try to feel compassion rather than get stuck in anger over it. It no longer confuses me, and doesn’t hurt as much anymore really. It just is.

I spent some time in the last year with a relative with Parkinson’s and seeing his brain unravel was a good reminder of how fragile our health can be - how our brains don’t always work ideally.

take care, pearl.

[Cat Familiar]

I think my SO often genuinely can’t remember. He is surprised sometimes when I tell him things he’s said or done. And hearing about it again is so painful for him he can’t really listen.

I think the reason that pwBPD might not remember an incident is that they might be in a dissociative state while they're saying unkind things. And somehow that doesn't create a lasting memory of the event, such as the recipient of that exchange would have.

My mother often denied saying some of the things she said to me and as a child, that was confusing. Who do you believe? Your own senses or your mother? I think that is part of the "gas lighting" some people experience from their pwBPD. Perhaps in some cases, it's not a conscious manipulation and they genuinely don't remember saying or doing what we've seen them express.

[Notwendy]

I look at these episodes as being like a child who ate something that disagrees with them. The child is in pain and distress, then throws up. Once they throw up, they feel all better. A person with BPD can not manage difficult feelings. The "episodes" are emotional vomit. Once the bad feelings are out, they feel fine, it's over, forgotten. Since they feel fine, they assume you should too.

What is said during these episodes is very hurtful, and they may mean it in the moment, but in actuality it can be quite odd and reflect their distorted thinking. Often they have made some kind of meaning out of something you said or did, and then they are feeling like victims. When they feel like a victim they feel justified in lashing out.

I think these episodes are inevitable - it is how they regulate emotions. They need a trigger and inevitably something will trigger it. I used to take them personally, JADE, and cry and ask what is wrong. That made them worse. In the moment, they are out of control. If there is a risk of physical danger, I think one needs to take steps for self protection. If they are only verbal, then don't react, leave the area, and/or learn ways to stay calm and not add fuel to the situation.

I read a statement that said " hurting people hurt others" . I think if someone is overwhelmed by their own emotional discomfort, they are not capable of empathy in that moment. Perhaps later. However, if they do recall the episode ,they may also be feeling shame.

A poster once said here that "BPD is a disorder of attachment- it affects the most intimate relationships the most. This explains why pwBPD appear nicer to other people. I used to feel hurt by that too, but then I realized that "nice person all the time" is actually a mask. I think high functioning pwBPD fear discovery and are good at putting on that nice face- but it must be exhausting. In reality they are the whole package, the nice and at times, have less control. Radical acceptance for the whole person - and not taking the episodes personally- helps.

[Harleyhogger]

WOW... .one of the best things on this site is the sense of solace I find when seeing all these stories that directly correlate with the life I am living with my BPDw of almost 16 years.

The sad part of your story is that this is one that plays out again and again. To us, we cannot fathom how someone can behave this way one minute and show no empathy or compassion the next. They seem to have amnesia when it comes to their "rages" or "acting out", leaving us in their wake, hurt and abandoned. I have termed this "living outside of the delusional mind" because their not having any recollection or seeming memory of their outburst, just moving on as if nothing ever happened is completely insane to those of us on the outside who consider ourselves normal, feeling human beings.

One blatant example of this outlandish behavior happened to me some years ago when I was working in our family business, my wife was at home and there was a severe weather alert in our area. In fact the weather was so threatening the EBS went off. I called my wife on her cell and the home phone to warn her of the impending weather. Of course she did not answer. Finally she called me back and raged about how I was blowing up her phone and that she could look out the window and see the weather coming, why was I calling her? OK... .not very normal, but then after raging for 20 minutes, I hung up on her. Some time later she texted me to come home and we would grill steaks for dinner. HUH?

Of course looking back on this, this whole situation was completely out of the norm. Why would any normal person rage at someone for just trying to let them know to take cover. What normal person would then completely overlook their behavior and text suggesting steak for dinner, like nothing happened?

Unfortunately if we choose to remain in this emotional orbit we have to understand that we are not dealing with "normal", we are dealing with a broken mind, an illness and as such should provide some emotional "allowances" and "acceptance" no matter how painful to us of their behaviors, because when it boils down to it, they will never change. They will never show compassion or empathy, they don't have any as a result of their upbringing or some other life event that has made them who they are. I have had to accept this fact, my wife will never show me compassion or empathy a normal person would. She will rage, accuse, push away, emotionally neglect and be oblivious to all of this, even if shed light on or brought to her attention. It will never be "her" fault. Rather someone else's. She cannot accept her behaviors as being out of the normal range, because to her, they are normal and perfectly acceptable. It is "I" who has the problem. This is the transference I choose to work with. Inherently my continuance and decision to remain is my choice, not hers, for whatever reasons.

I wish you peace. Find your own inner balance and do not depend on your SO to provide it. They do not have that capacity. It is an unrealistic expectation.

[Notwendy]

I had a similar "weather" incident. It was actually the one that woke me up to the bizarre thinking. I used to accept the causes for the rages, but this one was so weird, I could see it wasn't about me.

It was the holidays and I had spoken to my H's sister about what to buy his mother as a gift. I told him about it and showed him what I picked out and he seemed pleased with it. We went to visit and there was an impending storm. I wanted to get on the road early so we didn't get caught in it. Even his family urged him to do that.

He later blew up at me for wanting to leave because "my leaving was being rude to his family". How the heck he came to that conclusion after I had bought a nice gift and even they were concerned about the weather is beyond me. Instead of JADEing or crying, I just thought it was irrational. It was actually a breakthrough for me to see this and not take it personally.

[raiano18]

I often wonder the same thing. We've been together for a year 1/2 and I don't think I've ever heard her say she was sorry. She gets crazy, she hit me, called me and my family terrible names, told me she hated me more times than I could count and I just let it happen. She blames me for it.

[12years]

Thank you everyone! It is amazing we are all going through or have gone through this.
It just hurts so much now since I felt I had learned boundaries, walking away, stopping arguing. But, to me, I just can't cope with being someone who like today was NASTY and then a switch flipped and then NICE as pie. It is not right to switch like this. And I try boundary setting, walking out, because he just isn't hearing logic, and just saying "I am not picking a fight with you." but then the storm keeps on coming. And I try multiple ways to say I am not  picking fights via words, text just to see if anything gets through. And so after being super nasty for several days, he seems happy yesterday, then flips out again and this mood continues into this morning. Then this afternoon he is sweet as pie. It really makes you feel nervous. Especially at night I feel anxious about what may happen though I walk out, stop talking, etc.

And this is the worst thing, it's the weekends where things seem crazy. Up and down. Hot and cold. I am phsychologically breaking down. I can't take anymore of this. But, the only thing that will get him to stop is to kick him out. He won't separate, he insists divorce is the answer. Maybe if he'd gone to the counselor recommended to him over 2 years ago, that, he'd get some grasp of his feelings. How long have you guys been going through this? It's been 2 years, I am at the end of my rope. I just didn't want to uproot the family, we just moved back to the US from overseas and it will be 2 years in August. But, I know I have to do something.

I really see very extreme mood swings, irrational behavior, childlike fits, only getting worse as the marriage gets even rockier. Is there a point where some of you decide to get out? How does this go? Do they flip out even more and get more moody? More angry?  The anger is what I noticed first, why is he angry about things that seem anyone else wouldn't be angry about? why is it my fault? But, I guess he just can't control it. And I know now it's not my fault.

[formflier]

Hey 12 years!

I see you are early in the learning process of all of this.  One thing that came through loud and clear in your posts is that you are trying to convince him with words that you are not picking a fight (or something to that effect. 

And... if I understand correctly "it's not getting through to him"... correct?

I want to encourage you to think about a "big picture rule" or perhaps "something most newbies get wrong".

They try to hard to "tell" them (them being pwBPD) that they aren't doing something and not hard enough to "show them".

Said another way.  It's much more important to "show them" you won't argue and much LESS important to tell them.

In fact for each instance (each argument) I would encourage you to set a goal of telling him once and "at most" twice that you are disengaging and not arguing.

What kinds of things do you say to him to let him know?

We can help you get this better!

FF

[BetterLanes]

Hi 12years,

Pretty much 25 years now. It is really helpful to know now that the things he gets angry about are not actually my fault. Although logically a lot of it could never have been my fault, but there is always a way in which it was made to be my fault. Whatever my contribution to the issue was, or failing to act to prevent the issue in advance, or not seeming sympathetic enough about the issue, or not offering a good solution to the issue. That always gets highlighted.

My only real tactic that works is just to ignore and not respond. I guess that has effectively set a boundary because he used to demand a "correct" response from me, but usually now lets me stay quiet. Then I just carry on with what I was doing as if the anger wasn't happening or hadn't happened and don't mention it again. To back up what Formflier said about showing rather than talking, I have found that talking to him about it, apologising, using logic, showing any of my feelings, I learned a long while ago that nothing at all that you would use on regular people works to diminish the anger. Often the reverse. He is never (a) wrong, or (b) sorry, because of anything I said. I just think of the anger as something that will be present for a period of time, the length of which depends on how angry he was in the first place, and then go away. A big issue now about this tactic is that my daughter is old enough to be aware of this pattern of interaction and learn on some level that it is normal between men and women. So I don't want to carry on with it for very much longer. 

Hope that helps,
BetterLanes x

[Cat Familiar]

It is really helpful to know now that the things he gets angry about are not actually my fault.

We had one of these situations on Saturday. A contractor was supposed to show up to give us a bid on a small job. My husband wanted to go to the gym to work out. I told him to go--that I would handle it on my own. I have building knowledge and experience; he doesn't.

He decided to wait. The contractor was late. My husband started having a temper tantrum while we waited. I told him that he didn't need to be here. Then when he started being nasty to me, I said, "This is not about me. I don't want to be spoken to like that."

He shifted gears a bit and the doorbell rang. The contractor was only 15 minutes late--no biggie in my world, since we live in a rural area and it's hard for someone to calculate time if they've never been here before.

The change in me--I'm not willing to be his punching bag anymore.

[zachira]

My mother wears the ultimate nice person mask with others. She has BPD and NPD. My mother only takes her mask off for her children with whom she has zero boundaries. She always claimed to be very unhappily married to my father, though I doubt she ever told him. My father was happily married to my mother and said so. My mother regularly criticized my father and said she wanted a divorce. She shared her negative feelings about the marriage with her children, and probably nobody else.
After my father died, mom had a boyfriend who was a kind, caring man who desperately wanted to marry mom. I saw this over and over again: Mom would charm the hell out the man when she was with him. When he left, she had nothing but bad things to say about him. They were together for many years, and he never gave up on wanting to marry her. I think she could not marry him because of her fears she had that he would find out who she really was.
So, I think a good question to ask is: Who do they put their mask on for, and when and with whom do they share their true colors?