I wrote what I consider to be a really good letter

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Well my Sunday night take on things;

I wrote what I consider to be a really good letter which I was going to drop off with flowers. Nothing simple (of course) but just the entire meat of what I wanted to say that would put the whole thing on the line for her or me. She'd have to s or get off the p, and at worst I'd get to say everything I wanted.

But here are a few things I thought;

I don't want to say those things to her until I hear some things from her.

I mean everything I say in the letter but BPD or not she owns some of this.

And. I want her to come to this on her own for that reason.

And. I decided the only way out on this it to choose that she is confused/hurt woman vs BPD manipulative one. Otherwise I approach solving this the same way I approached IT in the first place; in fear and trepidation. And that is no way to approach success.

If I choose the former then I have this; a woman who chose me out of all the men in New York to be the first relationship in ten years, a woman who planned her life around me a scant 8 weeks ago, a woman who looked at me as her entire future and MEANT IT when she said 'we have our entire lives to figure it out'. A woman who cried when I said 'be my one and only' because she felt like I was her one and only already.

If I choose that as my reality, since I have no way of knowing realtity, than I don't need to send this letter. It would be beautiful it would speed up our resolution, but it won't answer for me if she has come to me in the last 8 weeks with all of this knowledge and desire.

If she is and felt the way I choose to believe, then her texts reflect exactly that, and her last skittish one and my reply only gives her the time and space to understand all of this. I've stayed the course through asking, offically asking, being pushed away, expressing my love weeks later and exprssing my caring through my text weeks after that. She knows and no letter or words will change that so it is time for her, if she is who I believe her to be, to take the space I gave her and get there and to me herself.

That said, I'm posting the letter here. Corny as all hell, but from the heart, she'll never read it now, but putting it 'out there' at least puts it out there and I believe its energy will be there as well. Forgive the senitment and the sap board (I in fact had this as 4 landscape formatted boards in script):

*****

Since I was remiss in giving you flowers any one of the hundred times I tried to find the courage to do so, please accept this bouquet which I hope can stand-in for each of those I didn’t give you and each I might have and to let you know that I did care for you in so many ways and so much more than I was able to let myself say to either your or myself.

Of all the things I want you to know one which I never found the strength or even grace to tell you at the time is that you made my birthday one of my most special nights and you simply awed me. Your caring, your affection, your kindness, your passion, your beauty, your sweetness, your friendship, your sensuality, your softness, your support, your grace all culminated into what I consider our first kiss and maybe my first real kiss in years. I can still hear the silence of our kiss and to this day I still taste the chocolate on your lips. When you said to me after we kissed "I want to start seeing each other once a week" I, to my everlasting regret, bit back the words that almost left my lips: “Once a week? I’d want you in my arms like this once a day" and instead I said… nothing. And in turn gave you nothing.

There are a lot of things I figured out from searching my soul   since I saw you last and they all are more examples of the above; I let my own fear get in the way of making you feel safe and appreciated.

Even more so I remembered that being a man is putting aside your own fear to make your friends and family and most especially your lady feel safe and appreciated always. I forgot that for a while to my shame and if that caused you pain I am sorry from the bottom of my heart. I only wanted to cause you joy and simply forgot how when I lost my way over these years.
 
Yet I have searched high and low since we parted ways and believe I have found the man I was again both from having you in my life and losing you from my life. I believe he is the one with the strength and kindness you were drawn to in the first place who would always put your safety and happiness first. If you ever care to have that man back in your life he is ready and would be honored and happy beyond words to be in your life again.

We don’t need to start with a kiss or a vow, we could start with a walk in the park or tea-for-two and just see what we are when we are holding hands with open hearts. When you are ready to find out I will be here.

Until then you remain in my thoughts and smiles as I hope I am in yours.
Peace and Love…
(Me)

[1stTimer]

Well my Sunday night take on things;

I wrote what I consider to be a really good letter which I was going to drop off with flowers. Nothing simple (of course) but just the entire meat of what I wanted to say that would put the whole thing on the line for her or me. She'd have to s or get off the p, and at worst I'd get to say everything I wanted.

But here are a few things I thought;

I don't want to say those things to her until I hear some things from her.

I mean everything I say in the letter but BPD or not she owns some of this.

And. I want her to come to this on her own for that reason.

And. I decided the only way out on this it to choose that she is confused/hurt woman vs BPD manipulative one. Otherwise I approach solving this the same way I approached IT in the first place; in fear and trepidation. And that is no way to approach success.

If I choose the former then I have this; a woman who chose me out of all the men in New York to be the first relationship in ten years, a woman who planned her life around me a scant 8 weeks ago, a woman who looked at me as her entire future and MEANT IT when she said 'we have our entire lives to figure it out'. A woman who cried when I said 'be my one and only' because she felt like I was her one and only already.

If I choose that as my reality, since I have no way of knowing realtity, than I don't need to send this letter. It would be beautiful it would speed up our resolution, but it won't answer for me if she has come to me in the last 8 weeks with all of this knowledge and desire.

If she is and felt the way I choose to believe, then her texts reflect exactly that, and her last skittish one and my reply only gives her the time and space to understand all of this. I've stayed the course through asking, offically asking, being pushed away, expressing my love weeks later and exprssing my caring through my text weeks after that. She knows and no letter or words will change that so it is time for her, if she is who I believe her to be, to take the space I gave her and get there and to me herself.

That said, I'm posting the letter here. Corny as all hell, but from the heart, she'll never read it now, but putting it 'out there' at least puts it out there and I believe its energy will be there as well. Forgive the senitment and the sap board (I in fact had this as 4 landscape formatted boards in script):

*****

Since I was remiss in giving you flowers any one of the hundred times I tried to find the courage to do so, please accept this bouquet which I hope can stand-in for each of those I didn’t give you and each I might have and to let you know that I did care for you in so many ways and so much more than I was able to let myself say to either your or myself.

Of all the things I want you to know one which I never found the strength or even grace to tell you at the time is that you made my birthday one of my most special nights and you simply awed me. Your caring, your affection, your kindness, your passion, your beauty, your sweetness, your friendship, your sensuality, your softness, your support, your grace all culminated into what I consider our first kiss and maybe my first real kiss in years. I can still hear the silence of our kiss and to this day I still taste the chocolate on your lips. When you said to me after we kissed "I want to start seeing each other once a week" I, to my everlasting regret, bit back the words that almost left my lips: “Once a week? I’d want you in my arms like this once a day" and instead I said… nothing. And in turn gave you nothing.

There are a lot of things I figured out from searching my soul   since I saw you last and they all are more examples of the above; I let my own fear get in the way of making you feel safe and appreciated.

Even more so I remembered that being a man is putting aside your own fear to make your friends and family and most especially your lady feel safe and appreciated always. I forgot that for a while to my shame and if that caused you pain I am sorry from the bottom of my heart. I only wanted to cause you joy and simply forgot how when I lost my way over these years.
 
Yet I have searched high and low since we parted ways and believe I have found the man I was again both from having you in my life and losing you from my life. I believe he is the one with the strength and kindness you were drawn to in the first place who would always put your safety and happiness first. If you ever care to have that man back in your life he is ready and would be honored and happy beyond words to be in your life again.

We don’t need to start with a kiss or a vow, we could start with a walk in the park or tea-for-two and just see what we are when we are holding hands with open hearts. When you are ready to find out I will be here.

Until then you remain in my thoughts and smiles as I hope I am in yours.
Peace and Love…
(Me)

[Skip]

1T, I think its a good letter. I might rework the first paragraph... .This video resonates with a lot of men. Elvis never got over his first love. 93 million views on youtube.


Date: 26387Minutes: 3:28
Always on my mind

1T, this is pretty timid. You're in NYC. Man are pretty bold. Women expect it.Don't you think.

Yah I think we sort of part company on the whole bold-he-man part of it here. I'm not dealing again with an ordinary situation. I'm trying to balance letting a potentially toxic insane BPD woman back into my life and a girl who might be hurt/scared and just said 'cant make firm plans'. I've been bold and strong and unavailable and take-or-leave-you and on-my-terms since I've met her.

I'm not suggesting that you become a "he man alpha male" in the image of the Men's Rights Movements or "Red Pill". Not my point at all.

I'm suggesting that you look at the big picture. You had a "take-or-leave-you" and "on-my-terms only" attitude... .and in the end it did not work. I don't think I would double down on that approach. I can see why you liked it, but that type of thing is not sustainable.

When I say be bold, I'm talking about courting her. Pursue her. While this hasn't been your role in the relationship so far, it is the traditional male role and she even went as far as to ask you to court her.

I understand that she pursued you. I understand that you liked that. But that is over now.

Without getting over your skis, I'd get out if the text message venue and call her for a short call (keep it short) and see if you can just make a connection.

The letter is a good letter, but is it the next step?  

And ask yourself, are you holding out for a situation where she pursues you like she did before. Is that a good path to take.

[1stTimer]

1T, I think its a good letter. I might rework the first paragraph...

I'll post the final at the end of my reply, first paragraph remained, I gave her sort of an 'out' at the end if she has moved on romantically since it was her friendship more than anything I connected to and would like her back in my life. Meanwhile moving on to replies (and thanks for reading the letter):

I'm not suggesting that you become a "he man alpha male" in the image of the Men's Rights Movements or "Red Pill". Not my point at all.

I do get that but there was a lot about being bold and pushing through etc. and I really can't push through her last 'lots happening. can't make firm plans'. And again I'll say there was nothing more happening in her life at 12:15pm sunday when I replied than there was at noon when she asked me out. So her ignoring my reply, my next one the next day and acting midnight tuesday as if I asked her out was her backing off hard and fast. Wanted me to pursue/court? Maybe.  People reminding her what a s*** I was (not)? Maybe. But she backed off hard. She did not say 'hey this week is crazy let's try next' and leave a door open. She slammed it. So I don't see that being not-timid etc would include ignoring that message.

That is why I thought, since she likely does NOT want to pursue but had made it clear she wanted to see me and had, in theory, said I can't make plans, I'd give her an out where she didn't ahve to be the one to reach out and I could honor her (supposed) inability to make plans (how can that even be?). So I thought I'd say I will be at 'our bar' (which I am a lot) if you want to pop-in and join me I'd love that. I would not then be a timid man glancing at the bar I was just trying to honor all of her spoken and unspoken wishes; I want to see you, I don't want to chase you, I can't make plans.

And I've said to I don't want to JUST take on the "I messed up I shall now pursue you mightily' mantle.

I'm suggesting that you look at the big picture. You had a "take-or-leave-you" and "on-my-terms only" attitude... .and in the end it did not work. I don't think I would double down on that approach. I can see why you liked it, but that type of thing is not sustainable.

I didn't like it. I hated it. I just had no other terms to offer Skip. I'll say again right when we started was right when I took my mother to Cali for 5 weeks to basically save her life, while we were there she told me she was considering killing herself one day and I had to basically walk her back to health all over Santa Monica, twisting my families arms to put aside their petty problems and give her the tender love she needed. I did manage all that and came back and started with this girl (on said birthday) while still living with my mother. I didn't have a lot of terms to give. I wasn't just being 'this chick digs me I can do what I want'.  It is one reason I put so much effort into helping her get her $40,000 raise; it was support I could offer and interest in her life well being I could offer.

I am in fact a hopeless romantic and in love with the entire classic male-female dynamic/energy, I even said to this girl that that is the engine of the world.

When I say be bold, I'm talking about courting her. Pursue her. While this hasn't been your role in the relationship so far, it is the traditional male role and she even went as far as to ask you to court her.

I want to. I opened the door. She stepped in. She slammed it the moment she did and not coyly. Again could be 'argh I chased him again! I am not sure.

I understand that she pursued you. I understand that you liked that. But that is over now.

Argh no no NO! She pursued me. I said no and put an end to it. She pushed for more endlessly I did NOT like it it was NOT respecting where I was and my need to take it slow and open up slowly. I don't want to be pursued.

Without getting over your skis, I'd get out if the text message venue and call her for a short call (keep it short) and see if you can just make a connection.

I don't know how that would work. Funny enough I think we may never have had a phone conversation anyway. She can only be in a couple places now; let him pursue me. My emotions got the better of me I'm gone.

The letter is a good letter, but is it the next step?

Yes. Because we'll drag this thing out to Kindgom Come. She has had two months to think like I have. CLEARLY she has thought about me and wanted me to call her texts make that clear. And she ran again. She has no idea of all the work I've done to realize my role in this. Even if she is still nuts about me as far as she knows I'm still the same closed off you-chase-me person whose feelings at the end she really did not trust (thus the official date, thus the 'I'm surprised you even talk about me to your friends, etc.).

I just want to get to the truth of this.

If she has moved on period, I want her to know I know I did not show her the appreciation she deserved but appreciated her more than she knew. So she'll know that and carry it. If she is someplace wondering whether to reply/reconnect she is doing so w/o all the information about who I am and what I've learned and HOW I FELT so she could only be saying ":)o I really want to return to that?". So my letter serves to allow her to decide with where I am now and who I am now and to know if she does decide on 'us' it is with the us she wanted and the me she wanted.

And ask yourself, are you holding out for a situation where she pursues you like she did before. Is that a good path to take.

Double-Argh. NO. I do not want her to pursue me. I want and am ready to treat her exactly as she always wanted to be treated and the way I like to treat a lady and more importantly one I care deeply about.

Final letter below. I say final because, sigh, I made it into 5 landscape pages, in script-font. I had it reduced and then printed at card stock at Kinkos and spiral bound with her name on top. I'm dropping it off with a dozen pink roses and lilacs at her building. She'll learn a lot about what I've learned, what she meant, how much I appreciated her, what we could have and a little about how I CAN court when I want :|

BTW the reference to tea at the end is because she'd always invite me out for tea early on, clearly wanting to have a more personal interaction not involving going out, drinking, etc. Ditto museums, ditto family events. All of which to me were stepping into something I was not ready for. Anyhoots:

To (her)

Since I was remiss in giving you flowers any one of the hundred times I tried to find the courage to do so, please accept this bouquet which I hope can stand-in for each of those I didn’t give you, and each I might have, and let you know that I did care for you in so many ways and so much more than I was able to let myself say to you or even myself.

-----

Of all the things I want you to know one which I never found the strength or even grace to tell you at the time is that you made my birthday one of my most special nights and you simply awed me. Your caring, your affection, your kindness, your passion, your beauty, your sweetness, your friendship, your sensuality, your softness, your support, your grace all culminated into what I consider our first kiss and maybe my first real kiss in years. I can still hear the silence of our kiss and to this day I still taste the chocolate on your lips. When you said to me after we kissed "I want to start seeing each other once a week" I, to my everlasting regret and shame, bit back the words that almost left my lips: “Once a week? I want to kiss you like this once a day" and instead I said… nothing. And in so doing gave you nothing for all you gave me.

-----

There are a lot of things I figured out from searching my soul since I saw you last and they all are more examples of the above; I let my own fear get in the way of making you feel safe and appreciated. I still remember texts from you that took my breath away you never even knew I saw because I couldn’t find the courage to tell you how much they meant to me.

And then I remembered that being a man is putting aside your own fear to make your friends and family and most especially your lady feel safe and appreciated always. I forgot that for a while to my shame and if that caused you pain I am sorry from the bottom of my heart. I only wanted to cause you joy and simply forgot how when I lost my way over these long years.

 -----

Yet I have searched high and low since we parted ways and believe I have found the man I was again both from having you in my life and losing you from my life.

I believe he is the one with the strength and kindness you were drawn to in the first place who would always put your safety and happiness first.

If you ever care to have that man back in your life he is ready and would be honored and happy beyond words to be in your life again.

-----

We don’t need to start with a kiss or a vow, we could start with a walk in the park or tea-for-two and just see what we are when we are holding hands both of us with open hearts. And if all we have left to us is holding hands in the sunlight that is, to this man at least, a lot to have lost and a lot to look forward to. If it turns out we still have whispers in the dark I will earn and cherish every one of those whispers and never keep one of my whispers to you to myself again. When you are ever ready to find out I will be here. Until then and forever you remain in my thoughts and smiles as I hope I am in yours.

Peace and Love,
(me)

[Skip]

All in all, this is all in a better place than it was a week ago with your first letter. Lot's of progress.

There is merit to doing these things in small bites and there is merit is just sending the "hail Mary" letter. So much depends on where she is mentally and emotionally and you can only make your best guess, and you have.

It's a good letter and presenting on paper is much better than a text or email.

Keep us updated.

[1stTimer]

So much depends on where she is mentally and emotionally and you can only make your best guess, and you have.

Thanks Skip. I basically think I lose her if I wait on her and if I text. So Hail Mary it is. Also for me. Walk out of the Stadium with the girl or walk out alone but I need to walk out of the stadium. I can't butcher the metaphor much more so I'll leave it at that.

Dropping off the flowers and 'book' with her tomorrow afternoon. Fortunately, I have two back to back insanely hard classes at the gym from 6-8 so I can be relaxed either way by 9.

All in all, this is all in a better place than it was a week ago with your first letter. Lot's of progress.

Most of that due to the help and support of the board and most specifically you Skip thanks.

[pearlsw]

Hi 1stT,

Wishing you the best with this!

~pearl.

[1stTimer]

Hi 1stT,
Wishing you the best with this!
~pearl.

Thanks Pearl! Any thoughts as a lady whose dated and loves being courted? I still haven't given it so if there are any glaring 'piss off pal' remarks I'd love to know. Kinkos is pretty easy to re-order from

[pearlsw]

Thanks Pearl! Any thoughts as a lady whose dated and loves being courted? I still haven't given it so if there are any glaring 'piss off pal' remarks I'd love to know. Kinkos is pretty easy to re-order from

Oh gosh, I really don't wanna second guess your letter, but as I reread it now I would change a few spots if I was in your shoes. Take or leave my ideas here! This is all you! But... .

I would not say this: "and instead I said… nothing. And in so doing gave you nothing for all you gave me."

She said some nice words, you froze. It's okay. We can't always find the words.

I'd keep it positive here, and kind to yourself, and stop just before this. It's more dramatic, more heartfelt, will make her hold her breath - if she is into you. If anything, repeat the sentiment you just stated. "That is what I wish I had said, that and more."

If this is how you see "men" and "ladies" then leave that part in, if it suits you. Personally I'd take out "being a man" and replace "lady" with "partner", but that's just me. I just think some of this does go both ways. We should all make our partner's feel safe - this is not just a duty for a man so don't carry that giant weight on your shoulders alone.

Again, I think it goes too far to say that as a man you have to always put her safety and happiness first. I'd see you as a guy who didn't give a d*mn about himself and was a bit of someone who would allow himself to get walked all over. That would not be appealing. It would make you sound desperate to me. Desperate is never a good look in courting, for either party.

Instead of putting her safety and happiness first, just say "make it a priority". That is enough, and doesn't give away the farm.  You matter too. Your emotional safety and happiness matter too.

I would suggest the tea, but not the hand holding. The flowers do enough to give all the signal you need towards loving her. I would not presume to suggest that tea and hand holding are in your thoughts. Let the hand holding happen naturally, if it does happen. Instead I'd write "just see where we are with open hearts." I think that also means you don't need this part: "And if all we have left to us is holding hands in the sunlight that is, to this man at least, a lot to have lost and a lot to look forward to. If it turns out we still have whispers in the dark I will earn and cherish every one of those whispers and never keep one of my whispers to you to myself again. " Way too tragic. Save it for a poem, later, to yourself. This sounds too much like you would be open for sex with her. Not something you need to say, something you let happen naturally if she signals a desire for it... .any potential physical contact let her take the lead on.

To me it is way too dramatic and... .it is sort of predeterming the whole get together. It signals you have a vision for it and if she reads it and is turned off, well, not good, right? Let her have her own imagination about how this could play out in person... .let her dream a little... .let her fill in the blanks about where a face to face conversation could lead. If any part of her has been dreaming about this happening she just needs to hear you want it too, see the preview, not the whole movie in advance.

Oh gosh, I hope you take this with a grain of salt. I am likely more of a feminist than she is... . But still, I think these tweaks have some merit and could help preserve your dignity while also showing how much you care and that is important I believe.

take care buddy!

pearl.

[1stTimer]

Hi Pearl, thanks for the Pearls

I would not say this: "and instead I said… nothing. And in so doing gave you nothing for all you gave me."

It is sort of the theme though; it wasn't that she said nice words. She went out of her way to make a really magic night for me and I really gave her nothing back. She had no idea how much that gesture meant to me. It wasn't her nice words I froze on. It was really a theme of that and the next 4 months. She would go out of her way to be romantic/supportive, I'd sort of... .ignore it.

If this is how you see "men" and "ladies" then leave that part in, if it suits you. Personally I'd take out "being a man" and replace "lady" with "partner", but that's just me. I just think some of this does go both ways. We should all make our partner's feel safe - this is not just a duty for a man so don't carry that giant weight on your shoulders alone.

I agree and I've told you about the woman carrying the sword when the man drops it. But again, a lot of what has occured (and even according to her) is my not doing things for a man does for a woman. She'd even say 'yes that was nice but I mean as a man for a woman'. She wanted me to make her feel like a woman, my woman, not just my buddy.

Again, I think it goes too far to say that as a man you have to always put her safety and happiness first. I'd see you as a guy who didn't give a d*mn about himself and was a bit of someone who would allow himself to get walked all over. That would not be appealing. It would make you sound desperate to me. Desperate is never a good look in courting, for either party. Instead of putting her safety and happiness first, just say "make it a priority". That is enough, and doesn't give away the farm.  You matter too. Your emotional safety and happiness matter too.
 

Hmm I don't think she ever saw me as a doormat, just the opposite. Firm boundaries and when she did things I didn't like I let her know firmly. For instance when she said "I don't believe you really cared, if you did you would have checked up on me" after I offered to take her to the Emergency Room the night before (she declined) but didn't check up the next morning. I think it is a pretty classic view; man  puts his lady's safety first. I guess I can change to priority, I don't think it will make such a difference though. She knows I value my emotional safety and happiness, a big part of the issue here is I valued it above hers and above all and ended up giving her very little in return. That is really the theme here: I was so intent on protecting myself/emotions/needs I didn't give her an ounce of the appreciation/acknowlegement she deserved, e.g. Birthday.

I would suggest the tea, but not the hand holding. The flowers do enough to give all the signal you need towards loving her. I would not presume to suggest that tea and hand holding are in your thoughts. Let the hand holding happen naturally, if it does happen. Instead I'd write "just see where we are with open hearts." I think that also means you don't need this part: "And if all we have left to us is holding hands in the sunlight that is, to this man at least, a lot to have lost and a lot to look forward to. If it turns out we still have whispers in the dark I will earn and cherish every one of those whispers and never keep one of my whispers to you to myself again. " Way too tragic. Save it for a poem, later, to yourself. This sounds too much like you would be open for sex with her. Not something you need to say, something you let happen naturally if she signals a desire for it... .any potential physical contact let her take the lead on.

Hmm entirely interesting take. I'm trying to say I want to be back in your life, but we don't need to jump in where we left off (the vows, the future, the be my one and only) I'm willing to take a few giant steps back and start from the beginning. I'm saying if we only have (e.g. if she has moved on) friendship (holding hands metaphorically) then I am fine with that. And if we have romance (whispers in the dark) still I am open to that. It isn't referencing sex per se it is referencing innocent friendship (holding hands) or romance (whispers in the dark). yeah romance is sex too. I don't need to be "The Man" and let her take the lead on physical contact btw :|

To me it is way too dramatic and... .it is sort of predeterming the whole get together. It signals you have a vision for it and if she reads it and is turned off, well, not good, right? Let her have her own imagination about how this could play out in person... .let her dream a little... .let her fill in the blanks about where a face to face conversation could lead. If any part of her has been dreaming about this happening she just needs to hear you want it too, see the preview, not the whole movie in advance.

Again interesting take on it. I'm pretty clear on saying I am ready if/when she is to see where we are. I say clearly "If you ever care to have that man back in your life he is ready" and "When you are ever ready to find out I will be here. Until then... " So my whole gist of this was "I have seen that I did not appreciate you as a lady or acknowlege what you brought to my life, I have found myself because of you, IF you want to reconnect or WHEN you want to reconnect I am ready and we can take two giant steps back from the 'be my one and only' official vows where we left off and back up a bit and rediscover each other. I'm not pussy-footing around however that I mean I want to return to where we were heading. I'm just saying that if she is not ready or we turn out to not have 'that' I value her friendship too.

My vision is we reconnect and take two giant steps back, take a walk in the park 'holding hands' and see what we have now that the dust has settled. If there is not more or if she is with someone else, we have that. If there still is we have that and this time I will not hold back as I did last time.

Oh gosh, I hope you take this with a grain of salt. I am likely more of a feminist than she is... . But still, I think these tweaks have some merit and could help preserve your dignity while also showing how much you care and that is important I believe.

She is hardly a feminist except in the modern terms; she believes my job is the important one to support us and a family and our lives, hers is for her happiness and we should stay where her happiness is :|  She believes men should lead when it is dangerous or heavy or expensive and women should be equals. In any event most of what I've said here is her views I'd wager.

Overall yeah is it dramatic; sure. It is sort of meant to be. I'm forcing the issue. I don't want to wait for her to take her time processing now that I texted her because her FIRST reaction was JOY and her FIRST response was to reach out to reconnect. Now she's had a week to remember that I was not an emotionally available courting male partner, that I withheld, she has time for her mother and sister and therapist and friends to all remind her 'what a jerk' I was and talk her out of her first instincts. she will not be returning any texts.  So she needs a dramatically new vision of who I am (who she thought I was), of my resolve and my desire for her. Let's face it the last time we left it we were in her apartment planning basically a life together (or she was). I'm clearly not reaching out to go to the movies and she is clearly not (first response at least) reacting so joyously or attempting recontact because she wants tea. This is about me wanting her (romantically and sexually) and her me. I don't want to play around anymore that that is not what it is I did that for months and months. I don't want to be coy about it. I just don't want her to think my point is 'let's go back to your apartment and pick up where we left off' that I know I need to earn her trust as the man she wanted in her life in the first place.

I'm just kicking this one out of the park. It's either a simple 'Thinking of you' (doesn't address ANY of her issues) or a giant 90 yard pass.

One other thing; she is VERY much 'you take the lead' and 'you decide'. I don't think she'd want a tentative (after everything I said) 'so let's get tea'. I think she'd want a more Skip-like  'this is what I want for us this is my vision of us'. I've really tried to not paint anything but 'let's reconnect with us both in a new place and with me in a place where I am the man you first hoped I was and see what we have'.


pearl.
[/quote]

[pearlsw]

Hey man,

I don't want to argue over your letter. You know what is best for you and what could possibly work here. You have the better sense of context undoubtedly.

I have never been able to grasp how badly you may or may not have messed things up with her, or what she was looking for, and what you have to offer.

I hope this brings you the results you dream of.

I also hope that you don't... .

Well, here is what I can share, I dated someone for about a year and it took me about three years to get over it. We went from him saying "I'll never ever break up with you, I love you so much, you're the best person I've ever been with... ." To poof, him disappearing. It took me a ridiculously long time to get over it. I moved on quickly, but it ate me up inside and I spent about a month writing giant letters to get him back. But he was gone. I did eventually get to see him, but he was a shadow of his former self.

Make your efforts, leave it all on the field, do what you gotta do, but if there was a lesson I got from what I went through it is never humiliate yourself for another person to win them back. Say what you can, they will respond or not, love and forgive you or not, but you don't have to be an over the top superhero.

If this is the kind of man you are expected to be now, and you keep filling this hole, and you let manhood be defined this way, where does this go if you do get back together? 

wish you much luck, pearl.

[1stTimer]

Hmm interesting take on it. I didn't think it came off as so hand-wringing. I'm just aiming for this Pearl, I guess I need to revisit it as that is not my intent.

FYIL I didn't do anything so wrong to her, she did her own stuff. I did very much not acknowledge a lof of what she did or gave because I was not ready for it and not ready to open up to it (as she knew). However... .it hurt her. I got mad at her for pushing me for things I wasn't ready for yet I had one foot in the door accepting the things she gave me without even doing her the courtesy of acknowledging that they meant to me.

I am just trying to say in the letter that I in fact really cared for her, as a woman, more than I could say, and that I should have not put my own fear/etc ahead of at least letting her know those things. Not that I had to be what she wanted when she wanted but if I was going to accept things like the birthday and the support from her as a woman and sex and romantic gestures like my birthday etc I should have acknowledged them and her. I got mad at her if you remember for not treating the keys she gave me and drawers she gave me and sex toy she shared with me as 'intimacies' and shared with someone else yet I never once let her know they meant so much to me let alone ANYTHING to me.

I'm just trying to let her know much they did mean, that I should have let her know, and that if we do reconnect I will not ever not let her know again. Thus my 'earn and cherish every whisper and never not share a whisper with you'. I don't see that as giving up my manhood. I don't see putting her safety first as giving up my manhood. I don't see saying I won't ever not acknowledge or appreciate you as that either. I'm trying to be a strong man who gets that he messed up and is big enough to admit it and promise to be a better man. I'll definitely take a look at it with a fresh eye though thank you. I'm not looking to be a doormat or to imply that in the SLIGHTEST.

The man I'm trying to be is a BETTER one than I was. Still with boundaries but able to either not accept what I'm not ready for or accept it, deal with my own issues, and give as good as I get. That is the only man I'm trying to be moving forward.

[pearlsw]

Hey 1stT,

That clears up a lot! You really think you showed so little appreciation though? Okay!

To me, if you weren't ready, you weren't ready. I don't see that, at least, as anything to apologize for. Did she respect that or try to push you beyond your limits at the time?

Sounds like she was wooing you and you were indecisive or not ready. Is that right? You didn't need to get MAD over it, but you also didn't have to do it her way... .I'm gonna stop now I feel like I may be taking this very wrong! 

best, pearl.

[1stTimer]

I'm gonna stop now I feel like I may be taking this very wrong! 

Last quote first: I am not taking it wrong at all, I utterly appreciate your insights. Sorry if I sound offended, I am not. it is a tough line for me to straddle.

That clears up a lot! You really think you showed so little appreciation though? Okay!

I do. Because of my reticince. I didn't say much of anything when she offered me her keys, said you can work out of here, etc. Something more than 'uh huh' but not much. When she walked me into her room to show her she made room in her drawers for me? Ditto. Even the amazing day of sex when she was 'walking on air' and 'feel like I'm on 3 valium' (hey how did she know that) I didn't have much to say. She was right she was always the first one to kiss and many of her really amazing supportive texts I ignored. Again this is why she was so shocked at the 'be my one and only' and that I even talked to my friends about her. If a girl who is making you birthday parties and sharing intimate toys and texting you super supportive thoughts is shocked you MENTION her to friends you have done something pretty wrong to not let her know how you feel.

To me, if you weren't ready, you weren't ready. I don't see that, at least, as anything to apologize for. Did she respect that or try to push you beyond your limits at the time?

She did not respect it. Not for a minute. She pushed and pushed and pushed. Even to the whole discussion on whether I should move to Cali etc. BUT. Meanwhile I'm sleeping with her, accepting her support, basically acting like a BF/GF but not giving back. If I wasn't ready I should have stayed with text buddies. I had my cake and ate it too so can't be really mad the cake wanted something too.

Sounds like she was wooing you and you were indecisive or not ready. Is that right? You didn't need to get MAD over it, but you also didn't have to do it her way

I needed to s or get off the pot. She too. I think she knew we had something. I don't know anymore man. I'm just sending an A-Bomb out there because I don't trust that space now will do anything but lose her, I can't close the gap contacting her because her 'can't make firm plans' puts me in a box, and I don't want to figure out each day/week some way to manuever closer or figure out what Monday meant or a text meant or hope she shows up. I'm going to say it is 90%+ that I lost her, that she found someone who WILL take her out and say nice things and kiss her fingers and talk to their friends about her and go to her family events and she deserves it and I deserve that if it is true. It has been a week since I texted back 'No worries, reach out when you can or when you want I am here'. Maybe that said the same thing as the letter and maybe she will in fact process the fact of how she FELT getting my text and what she felt like when she asked me out. I don't want to chance it I don't want to wait and I want to move on one way or another. Either she walks in the door and jumps in my arms, I never hear from her, or I get a nice Dear John text (such a nice letter met someone). Either way I can process and move on.

[1stTimer]

Man then this article

www.gettinbetter.com/anycost.html

Makes me want to burn the letter, shred the flowers and go into Witness Protection. I/we better be right about this... .

[once removed]

if youre thinking about taking queues from shari schreiber, id check out this thread first:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=320331.0

[1stTimer]

if youre thinking about taking queues from shari schreiber, id check out this thread first:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=320331.0

W-ow. All in all I'd take a relationship with pwBPD over her. I guess my point was it reminded me that, letter aside, I came her because this might be woman with BPD and my letter definitely could be opening Pandora's box. I modified the ending a bit see next post

[1stTimer]

Well dang Pearl if you don't take the cake

After some sleep and space I ended up changing the ending almost exactly to your 'specs':

If you ever care to have that man back in your life he is ready and would be honored and happy beyond words to be in your life again. We don’t need to meet with a kiss and a vow where we left off, we could just start with a walk in the park or tea-for-two and just see what we have when both of us have open hearts. Whenever you are ready to find out I will be here. Until then and forever if not you remain in my thoughts and smiles as I hope I am in yours.

Removed the whole 'fear' of 'just' friendship and the whole whispers in the dark. Just 'I think I got my head on straight I'd love to meet and take things slow and see what we have now that I'm open if you are open to meeting'. Or some such.

[pearlsw]

Well dang Pearl if you don't take the cake

After some sleep and space I ended up changing the ending almost exactly to your 'specs':

If you ever care to have that man back in your life he is ready and would be honored and happy beyond words to be in your life again. We don’t need to meet with a kiss and a vow where we left off, we could just start with a walk in the park or tea-for-two and just see what we have when both of us have open hearts. Whenever you are ready to find out I will be here. Until then and forever if not you remain in my thoughts and smiles as I hope I am in yours.

Removed the whole 'fear' of 'just' friendship and the whole whispers in the dark. Just 'I think I got my head on straight I'd love to meet and take things slow and see what we have now that I'm open if you are open to meeting'. Or some such.

Well dang 1stTimer,

I thought I was readin' some kind of indecent proposal there for a moment as I started to read your reply! hahahahaaha.

Well, good, that is just great... .I think this is a good example for you in terms of not jumping to defenses right off and keeping your ears open! Sometimes it's a good exercise to just assume you are wrong... .try a new idea on like a new coat and then you can take it off if you like - if it just doesn't suite you! You can always go back later and "be right"! ahhahaaha.

Keep in mind that listening will be big, big deal if you two do meet and get involved again. Slowing down your reaction times can make a big difference in improving communication!

Also, the changes I offered were about softening things. You still have what is a essentially a very heartfelt, romantic letter here, but you aren't offering the entire universe to her, just the world, and that is enough. Save something for later - if she comes back! Show her that you are this guy, that you can listen and be open to meeting her needs, not just saying, but showing!

best of luck to ya friend!  

~pearl.

p.s. I   cake!  hahahaaha.

[1stTimer]

All great advise Pearl. I think I've learned to listen better here and communicate better but I do still tend to fire off before doing either :| I think too fast but should learn to not speak so fast.

You'll be happy to know I also took your advice on the "Once a week? I want to kiss you like this once a day” and instead I said… nothing. And in so doing gave you nothing for all you gave me." and changed to "Words I wish I’d shared and words I wish I’d lived by."

I also (my you are persuasive!  ) removed

I believe he is the one with the strength and kindness you were drawn to in the first place who would always put your safety and happiness first.

And yup I don't want to offer the universe until not only does she 'come back' but offers me some part of the world too. She played a role in all this too and I'm offering an olive branch/mea culpa not, as you said, a doormat.

I'm thinking if her hasty retreat was either 'he needs to chase me' or 'why am I getting back into the same thing' this letter can give her gist for the mill at least. Thanks for your solid and loving feedback.

[pearlsw]

I'm thinking if her hasty retreat was either 'he needs to chase me' or 'why am I getting back into the same thing' this letter can give her gist for the mill at least. Thanks for your solid and loving feedback.

Oh sure! I have the luxury of armchair quarterbacking here, so I don't wanna steer you wrong. I just want you to get to a healthy balanced place... .one where you, we, anyone sees their mistakes, is willing to make amends, but not have to turn into a pretzel to do so!

So, can you get me back up to speed on when this plan gets hatched? When do the letters and flowers go out? Does she have a way to contact after that? And most importantly have you run the various trajectories this can take out in your head so you aren't massively disappointed, caught off guard, terribly hurt?

Can you do this from a place of giving with low or no expectations?

warmly, pearl.

[1stTimer]

So, can you get me back up to speed on when this plan gets hatched? When do the letters and flowers go out?

Weelllll they were going to go out this afternoon, picking up the bound 'poem' at Kinkos. However. I am scaling back again  mostly on the let's meet part. So it's more just 'let's meet'. vs rekindle. I dunno man.

Does she have a way to contact after that?

Yup. Email. Text. Call. Stop in at 'our bar'.

And most importantly have you run the various trajectories this can take out in your head so you aren't massively disappointed, caught off guard, terribly hurt?

- She ignores me. She already is but not sure IF she is i.e. she asked me out then backed off when I said yes. Not sure what to call that. So I send these and she ignores. Will that be huge for me? Not entirely as a) I'll have said what I wanted and she'll have more insight into how I felt and who I am and b) it will germinate for SURE

- She sends me some 'please don't contact me' type reply. I sort of don't see that happening given her recent replies t ome.

- She sends me some 'so sweet but I am seeing someone'. I see this as likely EXCEPT: I just don't get how if she is seeing someone seriously if I texted her she'd reply at all, let alone try to set up a face to face with me at the bar we met at, had multiple meets, kisses etc just to tell me that. That would make her insane and vicious. "Hi thanks for seeing if I was doing well just wanted to meet face to face since I broke things off to let you know I'm not dating someone else bye'? I mean in the same situation, some blow up of an almost relationship, the guy reaches out after two months and you are now serious with someone else, do you Pearl reply at all other then cool politeness and if so do you try to immediatly meet the guy at the place you used to 'love' one another? In any event this is either the scenario I see most likely or am most 'scared of'.

Can you do this from a place of giving with low or no expectations?

Sort a I'm just in limbo as it is. I wouldn't have considered this 'out of the blue' Pearl I'm really just doing this based on a few assumptions:
- That the things she said about me and our future and such were not some BPD driven over-valuation standard-operating-procedure but real feelings. In other words that two months ago this woman was considering entering into her first real relationship in years, with me, with the intention and hope of a life together. That wouldn't just go away in 8 weeks.

- That the speed and joy with which she replied was based on the above and based on her having spent that time thinking, wanting, hoping as I was.

- That her almost immediate desire to meet me (at our place again) was also her truest immediate reaction based on the above, whatever her subsequent pull back was.

In other words I'm basing this letter on the above being true and not on her being BPD in which case none of the above applies.

So it's hard to say 'no or low expectations'. I expect if all of this was real something good will come of it and that IF she is off thinking should I shouldn't I and her friends and family are saying don't go back there etc that this will give her a reason to make that choice.

The issue for me expectations wise is if I don't send I'm in limbo still; DID she want me to push through the 'can't make firm plans?'. Did she just run away for good and I'm just waiting on something that never happens and I am in limbo wondering on this board? Or is she somewhere figuring it out and doing so without 'all the data'.

I guess point is the worst that happens (realistically) is she says 'thanks but I've moved on' (and this STILL germinates inside her) and the best is she comes to me. The worst that happens waiting is she decides w/o all the info to not come to me and I just wait and wait and never find that out and the best is she reaches out but how likely is that without... .all the information.

I'll post my modified letter in a bit I guess, toning down the end.

[1stTimer]

Bombs. Away.

Card was gorgeous from Kinko, 8x6 heavy duty card stock, spiral bound, pink cover, white pages, script text and a small image or two to start and end it. Can't upload image but use your imagination I had written a new version but when I saw/read it man I really loved it. I wanted to reach out and reconnect with myself

Flowers were gorgeous, local atelier florist, pink roses and some other flower :|, she wrapped it all in purple, tied it off with twine and put the "card" inside the bouquet. I got the feeling she was thinking "4th guy of the day with the apology flowers what is UP with men?".

Anyway, she never be able to tell herself I never cared :|  And though I'm not preaching to th choir, hopefully since mom/sis are in her ear they'll get some better idea of who I am.

Again I'm going to have to hope a) the fact she reached out AND asked me to meet at our 'love bar' would rule out any significant relationship (cause that would be about as BPD-B**** as you can get b) she reached out so happy and fast because she has been hoping to reconnect as I have and c) all the "stuff" she said not just our last night together but for months and months was really about me being special in her life.

If any/all of the above is true that drop-off will be spectacular. It gets messy if you take out any of ABC of course.

I will update.

I feel great though. I was very happy walking it over. Partially because as you may have guessed I am a romantic IDIOT but also because it just felt like I was doing something right in the universe. Ever get that feeling? Like you just got into the part of the stream where you aren't fighting and just going where it wants. Yeah I know the waterfall metaphor sort of mitigates mine but still you know what I mean; universe is happy with you.

If she NEVER contacts me you know what; a girl who made me feel valued and sexy and handsome and smart and unique and special will get some of that in return and maybe just maybe not question if something was wrong with HER. That's the win I'm taking the rest is gravy.

[1stTimer]

Well so far no reply

I figure she got it this afternoon or maybe this evening so sort of kidding. She takes time to process even small messages (e.g. overnight) this one is a WHOPPER wherever she is at. I think it is sort of ironic I came to a BPD NC board to get advice on contact

To Pearl; what I wanted to say re letter which I kept forgetting was that this line... .

Yet I have searched high and low since we parted ways and believe I have found the man I used to be both from having you in my life and losing you from my life.

... .will likely resonate the most with her as her whole man/woman theme is women help make men into better men. I despise the entire concept personally but in this particular case, I'd say if not a 'better' man than the man I was. If you stop and read the letter (vs re-reading as I do) with fresh eyes it is a pretty profound thing to tell a woman. Hopefully she'll connect to that.

[Skip]

Did you post your final?

[pearlsw]

Well so far no reply

To Pearl; what I wanted to say re letter which I kept forgetting was that this line... .

Yet I have searched high and low since we parted ways and believe I have found the man I used to be both from having you in my life and losing you from my life.

... .will likely resonate the most with her as her whole man/woman theme is women help make men into better men. I despise the entire concept personally but in this particular case, I'd say if not a 'better' man than the man I was. If you stop and read the letter (vs re-reading as I do) with fresh eyes it is a pretty profound thing to tell a woman. Hopefully she'll connect to that.

Hi 1stT,

I hope this goes well for you. I am not sure I am the best woman to give you advice... .I am probably a bit of an outlier and respond differently than a lot of women. I also do think it matters what era you came of age in, and what sort of influences exist upon your dating style. Ya know?

I also hope I didn't underestimate how much damage/hurt you may have caused her and how she may have taken that. I dealt more with the letter at face value... .and I think it is good to offer a lot, but... .um, I think we have to be careful about how far we go with romantic gestures. But that is ONLY my personal take.

I remember early on, with my current SO, whenever we had a problem he'd try to rush in with buying me gifts. I didn't want a pile of make up gifts, which is what I would have ended up with I predicted! That would have been so depressing, and represented a giant pile of failure to me.

I wanted him to save his money, and just talk to me, just find a way to make up with words. But I think in some ways I did not relate to his internalized messages about masculinity and relationship repair, and mine were much different. Anyway, instead of denying him the chance to give me gifts, I realized to do so might represent rejection for him, I made sure they were scaled down, a compromise that I think worked well. A cheap piece of chocolate instead of jewelry for example. I liked letting him off the hook on thinking that he, as a man, owed me some kind of prize for each mistake he made.

Again, the best thing for me would have been him just following Fair Fighting Rules.

I hope I have not been a bad/misguided influence on you here!

Hope you set exactly the right tone you wanted and that you two are communicating again soon in a two-way direction!

Waiting here with ya!

wishing you the best, pearl.  

[1stTimer]

am not sure I am the best woman to give you advice... .I am probably a bit of an outlier and respond differently than a lot of women. I also do think it matters what era you came of age in, and what sort of influences exist upon your dating style. Ya know?

Man Pearl your advice has been amazingly helpful. I take into account where you come from just as I do Skip and Gem. Each of you has your own man/woman thing as do I as does 'my girl'. But your advice in general made for a much more powerful message AND one that hewed much more to my take on things i.e. I was not the Big Bad Wolf just a guy who realized if I was going to accept a relationship while I was in fear I still needed to acknowledge/appreciate.

In particular, I think getting rid of the whole 'if just friend in the sunlight' and 'whispers in the dark' was much needed. I think it was VERY powerful to just paint a picture of us starting afresh with me as the man she hoped I'd be. I mean clearly she'd picture herself whispering in the dark, living with, marrying and ending up with that man so all I need to do is tell her I've found that man and want to share him with her. She can paint a better picture than whispers in the dark from that and get that is there is nothing there we can still have the connection/friendship we did which was deep. I didn't need to spell it out with tragedy. I don't want her to think about tragedy, just possibility. So that advice was superlative, really.

The other dead-on advice was not doing the 'who'd always put your safety and happiness first'. I get she probably is more of that mindset than you vis-a-vis man/woman but it is still, in the end, generic. I ended up saying instead:

I believe he is the one with the strength and kindness you were drawn to in the first place. I believe he’s the one you knew you could trust with your dreams, with your smiles, with your tears, with your life.
That is much more personal and relevant to us over and above gender dynamics; she did trust me with her intimacies and loved that I did not judge and accepted her anyway. I'd much rather her be a person who know SHE can trust me with her life than that she is a woman who I put first simply because of that.

I also hope I didn't underestimate how much damage/hurt you may have caused her and how she may have taken that.

I'm not sure how much I did. I know I was still a super supportive friend and man, I just didn't let her know what she meant to me as a woman, and clearly the fact she was shocked I talked to friends about her and she needed such over-the-top assurances and she didn't know how much sitting in my lap even meant to me tells you I dropped the ball on making her feel special and wanted in that regard. All I wanted to do was let her know I did and I knew that putting my fear in front of letting her know hurt her. Either accept what she gives and appreciate it or don't. She has her own crosses to bear with the recirprocal to this but that is her cross in the end. So yeah not just falling on my sword the whole letter was critical to any potential communication that comes from this. Spot on again!

I hope I have not been a bad/misguided influence on you here!

Well if this doesn't work out at least I have a written history for my lawyers :| No Pearl you've been a fabulous influence. When I went to pick up the booklet at Kinkos (G':)AMN I loved that book) I was planning on a whole new version and when I read the printed version (with your suggestions implemented) it was just... perfect. I walked it to her with the bouquet on top of the world.

Hope you set exactly the right tone you wanted and that you two are communicating again soon in a two-way direction!

Well MAN she has a ton to process. Which I wanted. If she's been sitting on 'do I want this unavailable man who doesn't know how to appreciate me back just because I love him?' then this should straighten that out.

Pearl I keep coming back to this; less than a day after my reaching out for the first time in two months directly (other than the letter I sent) she invited me to meet me at a place she knows is my refuge, is the place we met, is a place we've kissed and bonded. Not my Starbucks, not the park, not any other places that are no-mans-land but that place. On her own. I cannot imagine (caveat: if she is not pwBPD!) she did that to blow me off or tell me about a guy, she could have ignored me or texted me or met me in daylight for coffee. It is that woman I wrote this too. She must by now, as I write this as at 10:55 have read or be reading this, be reading it to her mother and sister and friends and processing what I've actually said about how I felt, how I know what I did hurt her, and how I want to start again with her as the man she fell for.

In any event if that resonates with her, a lot of that will be due to your sage advice

[1stTimer]

Did you post your final?

No, pretty much the same with minor Pearlets  I must say now that I sent it and re-read it late night my reaction is "My GOD what did I send?"

Since I was remiss in giving you flowers any one of the hundred times I tried to find the courage to do so, please accept this bouquet which I hope can stand-in for each of those I didn’t give you, and each I might have, and let you know that I did care for you in so many ways and so much more than I was able to let myself say  to you or even myself.
  
Of all the things I want you to know one which I never found the strength or even grace to tell you at the time is that you made my birthday one of the my most special nights and you simply awed me. Your caring, your affection, your kindness, your passion, your beauty, your sweetness, your friendship, your sensuality, your softness, your support, your grace all culminated into what I consider our first kiss and maybe my first real kiss in years. I can still hear the silence of our kiss and to this day I still taste the chocolate on your lips. When you said to me after we kissed "I want to start seeing each other once a week" I, to my everlasting regret, bit back the words that almost left my lips: “Once a week? I want to kiss you like this once a day”. Words I wish I’d shared and words I wish I’d lived by.

There are a lot of things I figured out from searching my soul since I saw you last and they all are more examples of the above; I let my own fear get in the way of making you feel safe and appreciated. I still remember texts from you that took my breath away you never even knew I saw because I couldn’t find the courage to tell you how much they meant to me.

And then I remembered that being a man is putting aside your fear and making your friends and family and most especially your lady feel safe and appreciated always. I forgot that for a while to my shame and if that caused you pain I am sorry from the bottom of my heart. I only wanted to cause you joy and simply forgot how when I lost my way over these long years.
 
Yet I have searched high and low since we parted ways and believe I have found the man I used to be both from having you in my life and losing you from my life.

I believe he is the one with the strength and kindness you were drawn to in the first place.

I believe he’s the one you knew you could trust with your dreams, with your smiles, with your tears, with your life.

If you ever care to have that man back in your life he is ready and would be happy beyond words to be in your life again and would cherish your choice.

We don’t need to meet with a kiss and a vow, we could start with a walk in the park or tea-for-two and see what we have when we both bring open hearts. Whenever you are ready to find out I will be here for you. Until then and forever if not you remain in my thoughts and smiles as I hope I am in yours.
Peace and Love, (Me)

[pearlsw]

Oh my 1stT,

That is one beauty of a letter! That sounds like the summary of a romantic movie!   It would almost be worth being done wrong to get such a deep, heartfelt piece of writing in the end!

But let us hope this is not an end... .We're here to cheer you if you get what ya want and comfort you if it doesn't go to plan! Either way I like that you get to be deeply sorry, say what you need to, hopefully offer something that helps heal her too, and walk away with your dignity here, man... .Bravo! 

~pearl.

[1stTimer]

Oh my 1stT,
That is one beauty of a letter! That sounds like the summary of a romantic movie!   It would almost be worth being done wrong to get such a deep, heartfelt piece of writing in the end!

Wow Pearl thank you. I felt the same way when I picked up the book. Wish I could get pics in the post here because it is 1000x better in the bound edition. Something a woman might have in her bureau until she is 80 hopefully

Would you agree on the being invited to meet at our place a good thing (since I based my entire decision to send on it)? I know the horse is out of the barn so moot point really but just curious from your (outlier) female perspective.

I mean if you did do some crappy thing like decide the day after your "vows" and promises you didn't love him after all or wanted to go back with your ex that very day and dumped him out the blue, there would be no reason if you hadn't done him the courtesy of reaching out with an explanation in two months to wait for him to contact you nicely just to meet him in person at 'your place' to tell him what you did in person? Wait for him to show you he isn't mad so you can tell him to his face the crappy thing you did vs just ignore his text or 'I am fine thanks'

Ditto if you'd somehow moved on in eight weeks. You wouldn't ask the guy you've moved on from who reached out nicely to meet you at 'your place' in person so you could tell him that? That would be all kinds of mean and all kinds of confusing (again especially at place you met, made out, bonded) and there wouldn't even be a need for it. If you suspected he was still interested the thing to do would be 'I'm fine, seeing a great guy I thought you should know'.

I know all water under the dam  but curious from your perspective if I pulled the trigger on a decent assumption; that her asking me to meet her at our place less than a day after I reached out after two months in a way that was sweet and inviting meant something good at least.

A lot was riding on that assumption even if she just sits on it or it makes her feel good; sending t to a girl whom I did not in fact hurt but who was seeing her ex or trifling with me would for me poison the whole beauty of it. I know it is still my thoughts/feelings but I hate the thought they were wasted on the wrong person. Sorry a little negative this am on the whole thing. That was a LOT to put out there man. I was so tired all day after I realized how much it took out of me.





So


~pearl.
[/quote]

[Skip]

1T,

You're trying to determine which camp she is in. I think she has sent the signals of a person who is conflicted. The pros and the cons don't clearly point in one direction for her.  

You have been in that place too.

And time changes things. She woke up everyday for 60 days (if I have that right) deciding what she was going to do that day to take her life forward now that you were gone.

You had a choice of a series of short "feel each other out" moves or a Hail Mary, as you called it earlier, a big move. Gemsforeyes idea of flowers was a good one. I think you and pearlsw worked out the language and imagery well.  

These things are multi-dimensional and very complex - a lot of moving parts.

Skip

[1stTimer]

Oh the "conflicted" I totally get, I'm there too. I get she replied fast, reached to meet fast, and withdrew as fast. I don't mind the conflicted I' worry about her if she was not

Hail Mary (actually your phrase-ology ) was because it seemed like the short feel each other out moves were sort of blocked. If she'd done 'crazy week can we try another?' I'd have danced with her. Didn't see a good way around 'can't make firm plans' open-ended. So yeah Hail Mary and let her resolve her conflict with ALL the information.

60 Days is not that long a time in a love life unless something falls out of the sky. For instance my last girlfriend (aka Love of Live I mentioned before) was just immediate serendipity. For most non BPD people I know going from an explosive break-up with serious partner/potential to new person doesn't happen like that. And again then don't ask to meet!

I was really just trying to suss out if there was really a chance that wanting to meet after all this time the moment I reached out could possibly be to re-dump me aka hey lets meet I'm seeing someone. Really Skip just paranoid. You read the letter that is a LOT of putting youself on the line. Basically condensed everything she did over 18 months into one letter, I guess she deserved it. Going into Day 2 now officially so a little worried is all. Mostly feel good though.

1T,

You're trying to determine which camp she is in. I think she has sent the signals of a person who is conflicted. The pros and the cons don't clearly point in one direction for her.  

You have been in that place too.

And time changes things. She woke up everyday for 60 days (if I have that right) deciding what she was going to do that day to take her life forward now that you were gone.

You had a choice of a series of short "feel each other out" moves or a Hail Mary, as you called it earlier, a big move. Gemsforeyes idea of flowers was a good one. I think you and pearlsw worked out the language and imagery well.  

These things are multi-dimensional and very complex - a lot of moving parts.

Skip

[1stTimer]

Reply. Ambiguous. In fact I got it last night at 8:30 didn't see text indicator.

"Thank you for the thoughtful flowers and note. I am open to talk truthfully. Perhaps sometime this week.? Would you mind if I reach out to you to see if your available an hour or so before I think would work for me"

ANY idea what this means? Again she calls a missive from the heart 'a note' perhaps just easiest way for her to say it. I sort of have a feeling or foreboding on this to tell you the truth. Does this mean she thinks my note was not truthful? Does this mean she has a truth about how she felt (that I won't like)? I just really don't like the whole tone of it to be honest. I'll meet her for sure but this doesn't smell like reconciliation to me at all.

[once removed]

i read it as:

1. im interested in getting together
2. i want to talk... .i may have things to say/get off my chest
3. its gonna be short notice. is that cool?

[1stTimer]

i read it as:

1. im interested in getting together
2. i want to talk... .i may have things to say/get off my chest
3. its gonna be short notice. is that cool?

I get those parts but it is... .icy cool. The way she was the last night together. The way she replied to my first letter ("thanks for the nice note". The way she was with her 'lots happening. can't make firm plans". All way at odds with her usual demeanor even her initial very happy reply.

Again don't love 'truthfully'. Don't love last minute. I get she wants to get together and tell me something(s) but nothing about this reads to me as any remaining affection/desire/reconciliation. Means basically just walking into being told off or told truths I probably don't want to hear. Yeah I get I opened myself up to that, but you'd think a letter like that would engender a little more warmth? I'm still behind the 8-ball on this since the last night; SOMETHING made her furious with me and run, some 'truth' she thinks she knows. Not 'talk openly'. Not talk 'honestly'. But... .truthfully.

Anyway I'll meet her but not seeing anything good (for me) coming from this. I can't really back out now but I'd wager there is not only not a reconciliation but not a friendship or relationship at all after we meet. I'm gonna say 90% find out about 'the other guy' and some choice issues she'll get off her chest. There is not a shred of the girl who saw her life with me, who wanted king size beds. I sense great... .animosity.

[1stTimer]

I guess I don't see that my "note" (my 6 page custom cut spiral bound book with almost poetry about her throughout) affected her in the slightest. Anymore than my last letter did. So I'm really just walking into a shooting gallery IMHO. And again; as much as I took ownership of what I didn't do when we were together a huge part was her as per my original journey to this board. So do I want to reach out with something like I did and just show up to be a punching bag get this off my chest so I can tell my therapist I did and move on hour of Vestra Culpa? Or 'here is the truth I never loved you you were my back-up for Bob I returned to?'. I don't see as where we have much to discuss to 'close' this personally and if she had/has things to 'get off her chest' the 'note' (that took several authors and editions to craft) should be enough for her.

Yet nothing about that reply seems as if there is any affection or desire to come together. I said

"Whenever you are ready to find out I will be here for you. Until then and forever if not"

So why not just leave it as forever if not?

[Skip]

I think that is a realistic and timely response. More good than bad.

With respect for you and caring, I say this to you... .While you have climbed a mountain in terms of improvement (and we all see that   ), you do not read her well. I don't think you read her well prior to the big day, after the big day or in her recent texts.

She lived an extended period of unrequited love from you. You didn't owe it to her to have loved her (your feelings are valid). At the same time, to go forward you have to understand how damaging that was and know that damage is the environment you are working in now. You can't whisk it away because you feel different now. It happened. It was real.

You said understand conflicted. In that context, her first email response was 55% go forward. The second was maybe 60% go forward. The third was 45% go forward. This last one is 40% go forward.

I think you were throwing the hail Mary looking for a touchdown (85% go forward). Most Hail Mary's don't result in scores... .they are, by definition, literally, long shots.

"Thank you for the thoughtful flowers and note."
It's a subdued thanks. I got it. I know you are reaching out. I care enough about you as a person to talk more.

I am open to talk truthfully.
This is a tip off that there is some reality to be dealt with here. At 40% after three exchanges, this means its not over, but it also means the letter did not fix everything.  If it was over, she would ignore you or say "I have a boyfriend" or "I'm not interested".  You did not get those.

Perhaps sometime this week.? Would you mind if I reach out to you to see if you're available an hour or so before I think would work for me"
She is really busy with something... .but willing to do it sooner on an adhoc basis.

So, how have you handled this in the past?  From what you have told us and shown us, you have reacted strongly, stood behind that reaction strongly, and defended that reaction strongly. Your "reaction" reflex is already on high alert.

Don't trigger, man.

Let go of your idea that the note would be received as something to put under her pillow. It wasn't. But it did move things forward. There is more damage than 1 note is going to fix. Recognize that now is the time to be quiet and listen and step back to think about what she is saying. Empathy.

I might even think in terms of seeing her twice, once to listen, once to reflect back on what you heard (rather than jumping for a quick answer).

Ambiguous? Not really.Conflicted. I think this has been the reality all along.

I might respond with something like... . I am open to listen to you, and talk truthfully. That would be really good at this point. I can do it on short notice. (example only)

So I'm really just walking into a shooting gallery IMHO. And again; as much as I took ownership of what I didn't do when we were together a huge part was her as per my original journey to this board. So do I want to reach out with something like I did and just show up to be a punching bag get this off my chest so I can tell my therapist I did and move on hour of Vestra Culpa? Or 'here is the truth I never loved you you were my back-up for Bob I returned to?'. I don't see as where we have much to discuss to 'close' this personally and if she had/has things to 'get off her chest' the 'note' (that took several authors and editions to craft) should be enough for her.

You've talked a lot about a strong man recently. This is time for a strong man. Not a timid man, not a man with iron walls up because he is afraid of rejection, not a runner. You handed out months and months of rejection to her. What message are you sending to her about your "manhood" if you can handle the possibility of an hour of rejection from her?

[1stTimer]

I think that is a realistic and timely response. More good than bad.

With respect and caring, I say this. While you have climbed a mountain in terms of improvement (and we all see that   ), you do not read her well. I don't think you read her well prior to the big day, after the big day or in her recent texts.

There was an extended period of unrequited love. You didn't owe it to her to have loved her (you feelings are valid). At the same time, to go forward you have to understand how damaging that was and know that is the environment you are working in.

You said understand conflicted. In that context, her first email response was 55% go forward. The second was maybe 60% go forward. The this was 45% go forward. This last one is 40% go forward.

I think you were throwing the hail Mary looking for a touchdown (85% go forward).

"Thank you for the thoughtful flowers and note."
It's a subdued thanks. I got it. I know you are reaching out. I care enough about you as a person to talk more.

I am open to talk truthfully.
This is a tip off that there is some reality to be dealt with here. At 40% after three exchanges, this means its not over, but it also means the letter did not fix everything.  If it was over, she would ignore you or say "I have a boyfriend" or "I'm not interested".  You did not get those.

Perhaps sometime this week.? Would you mind if I reach out to you to see if you're available an hour or so before I think would work for me"
She is really busy with something... .but willing to do it sooner on an adhoc basis.

So, how have you handled this in the past?  From what you have told us and shown us, you have reacted strongly, stood behind that reaction strongly, and defended that reaction strongly. Your "reaction" reflex is already up.

Don't trigger, man. Let go of your idea that the note was not received as something to put under her pillow, there is more damage than 1 note is going to fix. Recognize that now is the time to be quiet and listen and step back to think about what she is saying. Empathy.

I might even think in terms of seeing her twice, once to listen, once to reflect back on what you heard (rather than jumping for a quick answer).

Ambiguous? Not really. Conflicted.

I might respond with something like... . I am open to listen to you, and talk truthfully. That would be really good at this point. I can do it on short notice. (example only)


You've talked a lot about a strong man recently. This is time for a strong man. Not a timid man, not a man with iron walls up because he is afraid of rejection, not a runner. You handed out months and months of rejection to her. What message are you sending to her about your "manhood" if you can handle the possibility of an hours of rejection from her?

I replied quite simply: "Of course. Reach out when you want I'll find a way to be there". Or some such. I'll meet her and listen. And try not to 'react'. I guess I don't know how unrequited love feels. I mean I've been interested in people who were not and had crushes, but no if what she said over months (and months and months) is to be trusted, I've never wanted a life with someone I had a relationship with too and got only some of what I wanted "knowing" I'd never get the rest and having my advances/gestures taken for granted. I'd guess is hurts like hell.

Thanks Skip. I'll go, take my needs/hurt/etc out of the equation and make this about listening to her. Whatever comes. Argh damn this board to hell!

[1stTimer]

You said understand conflicted. In that context, her first email response was 55% go forward. The second was maybe 60% go forward. The third was 45% go forward. This last one is 40% go forward.

I think you were throwing the hail Mary looking for a touchdown (85% go forward). Most Hail Mary's don't result in scores... .they are, by definition, literally, long shots.

Well maybe closer to 100% :|

Seriously though, given your guestimates and using those I guess I expected this
55% GF on my first reach out
60% on her invite
40% when she backed off
65% on this letter

Meaning the letter, while not fixing EVERYTHING introduces a whole wealth of new information on now only how I felt but how I understand how my 'inability' affected and hurt her. We've discussed this to death on the board for weeks, she however has never heard a word about this from me. Ever. She had no idea on the birthday, the texts that meant so much, that I know how it hurt her to not be acknowledged, how I really felt. So realistically yeah I don't expect her to swoon and be 100%, but that should be way more than 60% when she invited me out knowing NOTHING about any of this except what her hurt still was. But how did the letter make me take as step BACKWARDS to the worst GF so far?

I'll tell you from reading various replies from her over the months; either she runs these past her therapist or is gifted at these kinds of replies and communications.

[Skip]

Meaning the letter, while not fixing EVERYTHING introduces a whole wealth of new information on now only how I felt but how I understand how my 'inability' affected and hurt her.

Be careful with this. 1T.

Are you saying, even though I acted like unrequited love and you felt unrequited love and I walked away a couple of times... .my note says, I really loved you?

Actions. Feelings. Words.

I would listen really carefully to her... .she will clue you in on how she balances those actions, feelings, and words. Here them. Work within what she says. Don't defend and invalidate.

She could list 100 times that you should have sent flowers and didn't. That these don't make up for that.  What will you say?

You have to listen and work with what she gives you... .an be authentic about it.

[1stTimer]

Are you saying, even though I acted like unrequited love and you felt unrequited love and I walked away a couple of times... .my note says, I really loved you?

Well first of all I didn't walk away a couple times. I walked away once when she did her 'dont want a relationship' after putting me through the grinder to ask, to prove it with official ask and dinner, and a day of her future bombing me (while pissed at me)

I'm saying that what I said about not being ready was valid and true but that should not have stopped me from acknowledging, appreciating, reciprocating and sharing the feelings I did have despite any fears I had. I could have been scared to get closer or open up more and still send flowers after my birthday and told her just how special it was to me. Even IF that scared me. Because I owed at least that much to her.

She could list 100 times that you should have sent flowers and didn't. That these don't make up for that.  What will you say?

I have no idea what I will say. Internally I'm saying I can't make up for that.  That for whatever it is worth I wanted to, and for whatever it is worth I understand I caused her pain by not. And I did not intend to cause her pain. The flowers aren't to take away her pain they are to tell her I understand and am sorry.

I'm just guessing here but I think her issue might be different than anything we are discussing here.

You have to listen and work with what she gives you... .an be authentic about it.

That is what I'm saying. I think there is something here totally at odds with what I am saying or said in my letter. I might have touched on some of it. "Truthfully" tells me I did not. Her cold fury the last day did not. Her staying totally out of touch tells me I did not and her coldness even when reaching out or back tells me I did not. I said this when I started and even before I arrived here; I MISSED something. BIG. Did she read something, hear something? I don't know. But if her issue was just that 'you never cared or understood' my letter would have had much more impact. I think in fact it was a near miss.

But I agree; the woman is busy and still taking the time 2 months later to meet and talk. I'll listen.

[Skip]

She could list 100 times that you should have sent flowers and didn't. That these don't make up for that.  What will you say?

I have no idea what I will say. Internally I'm saying I can't make up for that.  That for whatever it is worth I wanted to, and for whatever it is worth I understand I caused her pain by not. And I did not intend to cause her pain. The flowers aren't to take away her pain they are to tell her I understand and am sorry.

Say, tell me more? How did it make you feel?

Empathy.  

Trick question.

[1stTimer]

Say, tell me more? How did it make you feel?

Empathy.  

Trick question.

Ahhh. Not here to answer. Here to hear. I understand. Not here to defend. Not here to explain. Not here to justify. Not here to make up for anything. Just here to... .hear.

[pearlsw]

Hey 1stT,

Quick tips if you do meet:

1) Study these ahead of time:

Don't JADE.

Validation

2) Listen with no thoughts in your own head.

3) Slow down your reaction times.

4) Focus on kindness.

5) Be in the moment.

6) Be grateful.

She may have spent the last two months trying to get over you - in the various ways one does that. Give her time to open up again and feel for you again, if she can, at her pace. It takes a lot of mental and emotional work to move back from one set of feelings to another - for some of us!

good luck! ~pearl.

[1stTimer]

Hey 1stT,

Quick tips if you do meet:
Don't JADE.


3) Slow down your reaction times.

I think these two most important for me thank you. I am a born quick-draw Jader.

[1stTimer]

essage_board/index.php?topic=81442.0]Validation[/url]
She may have spent the last two months trying to get over you - in the various ways one does that. Give her time to open up again and feel for you again, if she can, at her pace.

Are you saying she seems to have gotten over me or ir not open/feeling for me from her text?

I will say this from memory; her texts and emails were always as I called them "Spocky". I'd even ask when things were good (sigh) "Are you mad at me?" and she'd say not that is just the way I email/text it is not personal. Even on our 'be my one and only' night her email was perfuctory and in person she was almost over emotional. I think part of her assumes that her boss/someone is hacking/reading her emails thus 'thanks for the nice note' originally. We would joke on how literal she is vs how descriptive I am/.

Not trying to mitigate her reply but "I'm open to talking truthfully" could be another way of saying " we could start with a walk in the park and see what we have when we both bring open hearts.".

Just saying that yeah we have things to work out but given her communication style history going a year + back it is all in all positive.

And I'm not forgetting that 'truthfully' is a two-way street.

[1stTimer]

I don't think you read her well prior to the big day, after the big day or in her recent texts.

What do you think I misread prior to The Big Day and After The Big Day? Some big cue besides "Ask Me Officially to Be Your One and Only" and ":)ont' want to be your One and Only?" Seriously what did I miss here because my 'didn't appreciate you' meme is not flying I missed something BIG.

Recent texts I read as:
1) Hi SO Happy to hear from you! Want to talk soon?
2) Want to meet and talk about what happened and us?
3) I changed my mind, give me time to think

How is that wrong?

[1stTimer]

Say, tell me more? How did it make you feel?

Empathy.  

Trick question.

At some point however I'm going to need to 'explain' as I don't think she is just going to keep telling me how my 'rejection' felt or how she didn't believe I really wanted to commit to her (again I think there is some big elephant I totally missed here unrelated to what I THINK the issue is). I can't keep saying 'tell me more', 'that must have hurt', 'you were just asking for some indication I saw a future with you and I ignored it that must have hurt' etc. I'll sound like her therapist for one thing. I'm gathering she wants some ANSWERS unless she just wants to vent. How do I do that w/o defending/justifying/explaining? Some of those are precisely because I felt not only pushed but I felt invalidated (often); not caring where I was or what I had or the situation I was in or had been in.  So how do I answer these questions if they come up without starting a conflict, invalidating HER position, making it seem like I'm explaining/excusing?

[1stTimer]

You've talked a lot about a strong man recently. This is time for a strong man. Not a timid man, not a man with iron walls up because he is afraid of rejection, not a runner. You handed out months and months of rejection to her. What message are you sending to her about your "manhood" if you can handle the possibility of an hour of rejection from her?

I want to point something out on this also since they are related; I didn't hand out 'rejection' as much as handing out not giving her as much and full a relationship as SHE wanted and SHE needed at the time in total disregard for where I was. That is an element of what has gone on here too. I wasn't some s***hteel. I wasn't some guy who snubbed her and ignored her and then invited her over for fellatio.

Part of my whole 'manhood' fear that enters into this that was utterly ignored; I'l repeat; not some recent divorce. Not some guy who just lost a promotion. Lost EVERYTHING; love, career, money, home, then 12+ years of losing father, family, endless vicious conflict no door struggling to rebuild life living on a cot man while my mother drifted into suicidal thoughts and the entire family was torn about until I really had no one. I'm TERRIFIED of more loss. This is not only in relation to her now, this is part of what she knew about me. Respecting my need to slowly open up was not given and while I'm willing to sit and hear her pain or truth man mine is a huge and valid part of this. My fear to even sit down and be dealt more loss is hugely valid. It isn't just "timid guy scared to be rejected by girl he handed rejection out to for months and months'. I'll hear, I'll validate. But you know what? I wasn't heard or validated at all.

That letter was stupendously hard to write, admit and more to the point I had to drop EVERYTHING about it that was real and valid to me that has never been acknowleged. Do you think 'speak truthfully' will include any work  she's done on 'boards' to realize when you tell a man you want a committed relationship and he tells you he is not ready he wants to be in a secure place and get back on his feet so he can take care of a woman first and she pushed hard anyway and THEN tells you her and her mother and sister say you need to start courting her when you CANNOT it is HURTFUL to HIM? Because they don't care how it makes you feel knowing you cannot sustain it just that it will make HER feel good? When they ignore all the amazing ways you DO treat her simply because you haven't, as her mother said, 'upped my game'? I guess the days I spent helping her to get a 50% raise don't count as 'game'? I put all that aside to understand her pain and wrote a letter for the ages to let her know

You've asked me to keep my pain here and not even MENTION it but how can I do that if it is central to what happened? As central as my failings? As intertwined?

I will meet and do as you suggest, just understand my "timidity" doesn't come from being 'timid' it comes from everything that came in the last decade and a half AND everything she did to simply ignore it for her needs. I'm trying. But you know what? Whatever she did to 'get over me' in the last two months, she could have also done some introsepction to understand this and, when she got the type of "NOTE" I sent her to take in the enormity of the gesture and in context to the things she should know she did to hurt me. Yeah I get it is NYC you can find umpteen men to 'court' you. Yet she is alone for all these years. Which one of them would offer to take her to the emergency room at midnight wheh she had the highly dangerous and contagious winter flu, the emergency room I practically LIVED in since 2003 watching my father die and my mother break every bone in her body? NONE. I deserve a little more slack and a little more respect.

Sorry for the vent but again I seem to be boxed in the 'I was a mean man and hurt a poor girl who dealt with unrequited love and have to listen and validate and never mention my own hurt'.

If she wants to "talk truthfully" I will even if my truths push her away because, IF we find a way back to each other I'm not doing it as man without testicles, who buries his own pain and needs and hurt just so his woman has none. THAT is not the man I want to be, not for her and not for any woman alive.

[pearlsw]

Hi 1stT,

I'm here. I read your post. I hope I am not responding too quickly before I've absorbed it all. I want to say that I hear the pain you are in. You have been through a lot and are carrying a lot.

We can talk it about it. I'm here for that, right with ya, okay?

But let's sort this a bit... .okay? All your avalanche of past stuff is not for this first meeting with her if it happens. Not at all. Not because you don't have valid feelings and not because you don't matter, but because it is not a good look for a first meeting after a break up. Okay?

I'm trying hard to refrain from making a cheeky comment, but I'm a cheeky gal. (Note to self: do not make cheeky comment about testicles right now.)

So, talk to me. What happened with your parents? What is your past stuff? What is your pain? You can tell us here and get it out here instead of bringing it to your make up meeting, okay buddy?  

So you lost everything in a previous divorce? I knew someone once who told me he'd literally lost all but his underwear, and he barely kept those, but he was able to say it with a laugh by the time I met him. He remarried an incredible woman and had a couple of kids and had a whole lot of career success and was just an all around great guy. Life went on. One of my brothers had a pretty vicious first wife who did her best to destroy him and his relationship with his kids and mine too for that matter... .My brother is now with his third wife who understands and adores him and he sees at least one of his kids who became an expert in PTSD and seems to be a pretty understanding gal. They are living it up and having a great life together! Maybe your story has a happier ending one day too.

I think nearly every guy I've ever been really good friends with has horror stories about exes. So, you have my ear. What did Pat Benatar say about this?  "Love is a Battlefield". Sorry, I had to be a little cheeky!  

But in all honesty, let's talk. We're here. We're listening. We want better things for you! Sounds like a good idea to to work on your own healing as part of this process, for this or whatever your next relationship is when you are ready for it!

warmly, pearl.

[pearlsw]

p.s. and about the 2 mo's I just mean if she was not contacting you these last months and you were not contacting here that was a pretty sharp break. I can't guess what was going on in her head, I'm not sure she even has BPD or BPD traits so I can't come at it from that angle either... .I just know what it feels like to no longer be in contact with someone and how you gradually adjust to that. Her being nice at all is a good indicator. Maybe there was pressure on her from friends or family, some advice, to keep away, who knows. I just imagine some people try to reorient their feelings after a big blow up. They might be very angry for awhile, they might convince themselves about bad things about you, they might not see you the same as before. We don't know what happened. But we're here and we're waiting too! You are not alone!

[1stTimer]

Hi Pearl, as always thank you for your support. I have no intention of letting lose on her at all. I just meant in terms of being 'timid' or in terms of this whole thing being about big-bad-1st making up for hurting the poor unrequited love girl. I was expecting more a a response, sure (Skip at it at 40% forward I'd have expected some serious movement) but again she is very cool and undemonstrative in her emails/texts and always has been so we'll see what she is like in person

So you lost everything in a previous divorce? I

No I don't mean the 'lost it all in a divorce' story. I mean I lost everthing I had, built and loved. I moved to San Fran after losing a business I loved that brought me great happiness to a partner.

Decided to rebuild. Fell in LOVE with San Francisco, found my real self for the first time, mostly because away from family so I could be who I was not who they said. Got pretty steady freelance work in the business I'd been in, made great friends. And out of the blue had love-at-first-sight kind of love I'd only thought was in the movies.

Amazing. Got to give every part of myself I knew I had but hadn't given and her too. Silly stupid romantic words. Every time we met in the street but were talking on the phone I'd say as I saw her "I have to go I just saw the most beautiful woman in the world I am going to go kiss her" and she'd say "That is fine I just saw the most beautiful boy and I am going to let him kiss me". Corny but f-man. She'd grab my knee or arm out of the blue, squeeze it and with her eyes wide incant my name because her heart was spilling over. Waitresses used to say half-kidding 'you'll need to let go of each other's hands if you want to eat your food'. I deided to propose to her,  bring her back to NYC to meet my mother (same birthday), have a horse drawn carriage take us to the Boathouse in Central Park and then take the gondola they have under the white stone bridge in the moonlight where you can see the building I grew up in and propose.

So I had her, a city I loved, friends, no business per se but making good money. Dot-com bust hit, business dried up, rent was hard, etc. Long story short is she flipped out on me one day about money/career, had me on the floor in a fetal position she was laying into me so hard using all the dreams I ever told her about. naturally knowing me I sent a stupid letter that pretty much kabashed it. Didn't read a thing except what she considered insults. Didn't know a thing about the things I learned here. Then she quit her job, moved out of the apartment she'd been in for five years, her friends all ripped me apart, realized much later on she'd likely gotten pregnant and had an abortion. Did some super romantic gesture that had her stammering, had an amazing moment under the moonlight (possibly the most amazing moment of my life) and hten it all blew up as her (loser male) friends poisoned her and she did some horrid thing in front of everyone (or let someone else). I was 1/2 way to walking to and off the Golden Gate Bridge.

In any event now I'm in San Francisco; my career is over. I don't have enough to even fly home. I can't pay my rent. The absolute love of my life (sorry Skip) not only has left me, her friends have convinced of untrue things so that now not only will we never reconcile this woman who thought I was the most amazing PERSON she ever met will spend the rest of her life thinking I am scum.  Not much support from idiot sisters at home (one says to me regarding a potential business deall I am making "what happens when they find out about your record?" I ask my SISTER "What the heck are you talking about I never JAY WALKED in my life" cause she has no idea who I am).

I btw did not let the career going south stop me, I was not on her couch eating cheerios lamenting my life, I was actively pursuing new opportunities; I had a technology I'd been working in I applied for a PATENT for, and was dealing with a restaurant group that wanted to invest in an idea and we were looking for space (among other things I was doing). One of her male friends poisoned her so much when she said 'you aren't doing anything' and I said "I filed a PATENT" she said 'yes but the proposal was 30 pages too long' (not that she'd read it her idiot friend had, I guess being verbose and being a LOSER are synonymous). From a girl who had only one person in the world supporting her career change, ME. Anyway I digress as usual

So I left San Francisco after scraping up $300 with it all gone. I came back to NYC to figure out how to rebuild, handed out flyers while in tears down town manhattan. Really could not go back to career. Was living with parents. Bad place. Family dog my father loved more than anything died slowly and seemed to trigger his dimentia onset. He slowly got worse and required more and more home care. I was doing dog walking which is about as lonely a thing you can do if you had a career before; in peoples homes looking at the pictures of their lives you'll never have now while the place is empty and picking up poo in the snow and the heat.

Lived on a cot in the kitchen, no door, havent had one for years. Had to help with dad which meant him falling down, slurping at dinner because he couldn't operate lips right, peeing and pooping himself and being mortified he had and not being able to get a sentence out unless you patiently (I wsa the only one who did) LET him. I came back one night with his favorite candy, honey sesame bar and he just looked at me and took it and patted my shoulder with tears in his eyes because he couldn't even process the words with his brain.

A ton of infighitng since we had three adults in the house all watching dad/husband drift away house smelled like urine, sister with anger/emotional issues in and out of rehab or involuntary confinment who also turned the rest of hte familyu against ME so I lived like that; walking dogs, taking care of dad, fighting in a place i had no respite or door, eating alone.

I started at this point developing a web technology on my own. Financed with dog walks and built in starbucks between walks while doing the above. Which has grown somehow to the most sophisticated tehcnoloyg of it's type build just like that, no one knows, and if I can't get it to the next level no one ever WILL know. People see me sit all alone at local bar and have no idea what I've created or the will or intelligence or courage or anything. The only person who ever did was... .her. Back to that in a moment.

Father went to elder care facility, they loved him there. The orderly says your father is the only one who picks up his tray every day and bring it to us. Father was amazing man; quiet, sweet, nurturing, funny,  peaceful except if his family threatened. One day at home he gripped my hand hard when I left, didn;t know what it meant, next day we got call he died. I went into our bathroom and cried then picked up my laptop and went out into the blizzard to I could go walk dogs and work on the site. No one to console me, no woman's lap or arms. My mother is scared of death so would not let us have a funeral or service, we had some brunch a month later, hardly a way to acknowledge a life or death. His ashes still sit on her buruea in the box they came from.

Meanwhile kept working on this day and night by which I mean 80-100 hours a week, 7 days a week, no friends to speak of, no dates, no woman, no love, no sex, no support and a toxic family situation and still no door. I go to bathrooms when I'm out to have a door to close, then I fight to get this technology built with it slding down the hill over and over and over and over and I find a way to push it back up. I finally laucnhed it and one knows what it is or what it took. She seemed to. Only person I know who said "I beleive in you".

Mother licked herself in her room and started to get depressed and then scary isolated. Lived in a house with bereft mother and angry muttering sister, no door. Finally realized my mother needed help or she would die and somehow convinced her to go to Cali to visit her favorite daughter. Getting her there was herculean effort, had to enlist aid of the CEO of the airline who was great. Got her there against her objections. My sis and bro in law were horrible to her because they had million dollar problems that were more important and were very short with her. I brought her there to save her with their tender love. One night they went out my mother asked me to stay. We had some wine and she talked about the mall they went to that day, discussed mezzanine and kept saying 'it wasn't high enough'. I kept asking what she meant (I had NO idea) she said 'to jump to jump to jump!'. I held her and then my sister th enext day told me I shold leave since I was being COOL to her and how hard her life was (husband wasnot appreciativ all the time, cnat find a home under $2mil) and was about to lay into her and had an epiphany 'You can talk to me about your life anytime you want and I'll listen. Right now your mother is DYING and she is here because you are the only one who can give her the love she needs right now. Can you do that and we can talk about you later on I promise?" She cried and late ron thanked me for being so strong, and I almost wept when she said "You reminded me of Dad".

I had to try to STIL get the business going htere, agian on no monmey with money running out as it kept doing, but had to walk my mother around Santa Monica every day to nurse her back to live, did that 2-3 hours a day and cooked for 6 people to boot. Made my mom stay through Thanksgiving against her wil, she thanked me for that. Had to watch my sisters fight while i handled all this over who would buy her ticket, finally I did even though I'd bought the one here and couldn't affotrd it but it beat dealing with the 'she said this' and 'b*** that' while I tried to rescue my life.

Got my mother back to Ny, just as hard, she was much better, yet my entire business as still in jeaporady as endless endless delays delaing with unscurpulous offshore coders which is allI could afford so in terror over my future and especially knowing what it COULD be if I could just get this thing done and then GET OUT of the toxic plac and get a life back again with a door away from all this toxic infighiting (wont even bore you with hideous older sister who after doing nothing during all of this amazed me by shwoing up with a shopping from Costco for us when we got back and then gave us a $500 bill for it).

THIS is when I stared with the girl. I mean we'd been in touch the prior year, she knew a lot of this, and knew why I couldnt be in a relatinship ad said she respected it but did not REALLY. She'd even been pushing to come meet my mom and take care of her when I was away before we'd even dated. But I mean when I got back from Cali this time is when she said if you arent seeing anyone I am not let's start ok and she did my Birthday which is where this all started.

I was not ready to just open up emotionally after all of the above nto ready to give myself 'corurting' wise when I'm fighitng to build a $20 million dollar technology with $5000 at a time and can hardly feed myself, I was not ready to just trust a woman who said all these things without knowing if I could trust her and should trust her. This technology has NO business existing let alone the way I built it, Itell people I did it on fury and terror. Yet still she believed in me, said she didn't care I lived at home, thoght I and it was amazing and supported me. I annot tell you how much I looke forward to having a woman who believed in me,  I could actually run ideas by, who could tell me it would be allright when it fell apart, to share in the victory and the rewards while I shared in hers. It is really all I ever wanted with a woman.

And when I startd putting my hands down and started trustring that she meant ME and she meant US and wasn't just a crazy 'i need to be in a relationship' woman but really got me and really supported me I started putting my defenses down and giving to her. And when she said she needed to HEAR I wanted her and her alone I told her and when she said she needed me to ask her OFFICIALLY I went all out and took her out and did and when she asked me to hold her in her arms and discuss our entire future together i did just that and bought into finally having that; the woman that supports me while I finish this and shares in it, the sundays in bed, the partnre and the love and the affection and giving it all that she asked for and finally having it again after all this. And she pulled it away the next day as i she'd never asked.

So there is a LOT more to this then poor-girl-unrequited-love-insensitive-guy.

Phew. I'm going to go box.

[1stTimer]

er... .I just know what it feels like to no longer be in contact with someone and how you gradually adjust to that.

Yet somehow I didn't. Which is pretty amazing where we both (supposedly) came from. So again I wonder if my letters have missed the mark by a wide margin as they appear to be so (tepidly) received, almost as she would if SHE were the one who didn't love and I did ('thanks for the nice thoughts' not as if she'd gotten validation twice of everything she (supposedly) wanted to hear from me.  And that leads me back to 'truthfully'. Yeah I know I 'm supposed ot be open to rejection since I supposedly broke her unrequited love heart for months but part of me is thinking this did NOT happen and 'truthful' is that I 'imagined' it or took her comments way to much to heart and we'll get to 'straighten' that out with a talk (YOU thought I felt ABC I did not). I don't know anymore. I just mean if she did feel like that and *I* am so and still so connected/broken about it then hard to imagine how she'd adjust. Then again as mentioned; living in NYC as single woman, pretty or not, you always have access to men.

[1stTimer]

ith someone and how you gradually adjust to that. Her being nice at all is a good indicator. Maybe there was pressure on her from friends or family, some advice, to keep away, who knows.

I took that into account and took into account they may not really know the man I am OR the work I've done to understand my part in how I hurt their daughter/sister. So while I did not write that for them I would imagine they've read it by now and have a better idea of who I am. And as tepid as the reply is I bet it means far far far more to her than that reply indicates.

Since she knows a good deal of the story I just told above, my hope is she'd be able to see the care/retecine I showed (which she likely took as a judgment of herself) and see that with fresh eyes with that I said so she can reconcile the two.

[1stTimer]

Forgot this part in the whole 'fun story' Pearl; one of the things that the friends in San Fran did to turn her against me was use 1/2 truths from my past they knew nothing about and sewing together a lie. However part of that lie included a partner from my past I'd had a break with who screwed me who did something unbeknownst to me (took my old company url and diverted it to his so it looks like I lied about THAT).

In any event when I returned to NYC, guess who my younger sister was marrying? The guy who screwed me AND whose unscrupulous action had forever turned the one woman on the planet who lovvvvvved ME into thinking I was scum forever. No one really cared I'd have to now spend the rest of my life near him. I refused to go to the wedding. However aforementioned older sister decided not to go and keep her son and daughter and husband away too (because she could not control the wedding). I decided I HAD to go now since 1/2 my baby sister's family was not all of a sudden. It was a 6 hour trip to a beach part night before the wedding, lobster bake, and with both entire familes watching in the tent I went up and hugged him and welcomed him to the family. That was the hardest thing I'd EVER done up to that point in my life. Not a person acknowledged it. And though we've mended fences to a degree (though he kept the URL 6 years into the marriage) I still look at him and know that his actionsh helped destroy the love of the woman I loved.

Just since you're asking me to put it all down here

[ILuvABorderline]

For what it’s worth, all other things aside, I personally thought the letter was beautiful. Also, there is the possibility that this woman is both the individuals you described. Underneath the BPD insanity my husband remains a scared, timid and confused little boy. In my experience, a person with BPD can genuinely have a wondrous side of themselves that compels you to want to protect them, love them more than anyone else ever has and keep them “safe” with you forever. This side coexists with the Borderline Beast.

[1stTimer]

For what it’s worth, all other things aside, I personally thought the letter was beautiful. Also, there is the possibility that this woman is both the individuals you described. Underneath the BPD insanity my husband remains a scared, timid and confused little boy. In my experience, a person with BPD can genuinely have a wondrous side of themselves that compels you to want to protect them, love them more than anyone else ever has and keep them “safe” with you forever. This side coexists with the Borderline Beast.

Hi ILuv. Thanks for the kind words. I seem to encounter that theme a lot, that many BPD people are in fact very loving and lovable. Jury is out for me on BPD with her. I have never seen any of the devaluing, fury, emotional cutting, insulting, or even unstable behavior from her. Fear of intimacy to be sure. Abandoned by father (who had to have my name of course) yeah.

I really think she was much more moved by the letter than she indicates and on re-reading her reply it does not seem nearly so harsh. I guess I had a more "Hollywood" version of what would happen if she did reply. I don't think anyone reading that least of all the person reading it could not get it was totally from the heart from a person that cared and cares deeply. Funny thing is if she is just discovering the depths of how much I did, it took me a few weeks of being furious at her to realize that underneath it I cared for her so much more than I ever allowed myself to know. If you read my 'lament' a few posts back it might be clear why.

In any event glad to know you can make something work with a pwBPD and nice to see that you can see that inside him and love him and stay with him.

[Harri]

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