Would like some backup that ignoring "praying" is the best course

[formflier]

Last night was a big of a rough pain night for me.  Took some extra time in hot bath, stretching etc etc to get ready for bed.  Wife hopped in bath for a while and attempted to do the

"I'm going to stare and my phone and question you at the same time thing... "

"What's going on, why are you hurting, where were you today... .etc etc "

My brief answer was along the the lines of "I spent a good deal of time at the chiropractor trying to manage pain.  I'm trying to get ready for bed right now and will be able to talk further about this tomorrow afternoon when I'm hopefully in a better frame of mind.  Now I'm going to focus on getting to sleep."

I ignored completely the follow up pestering to "just tell her a little". 

So... .when I got in bed she was still in the bath ranting.  At some point it switched and seemed louder and more "like a list".  I still had a pill to take... and that pill was in the bathroom so I slipped in got the pill and she is washing her hair... ."praying outloud" and essentially going through the list of people in our family... listing their faults (as she sees them) and asking God to "change their hearts".

She upped the volume as I walked out and closed the door behind me.  I turned up an air cleaner that I use as white noise when I need it... .and went to sleep.

I considered going in their to ask her to "hold it down" but I figured it would burn itself out... .which I believe it did.  I did get to sleep after it got quieter. 

Thoughts?

FF

[Notwendy]

FF - I see some attempts on your part to control your wife's odd behaviors. Some of them, I believe, are her ways of regulating her emotions. She was trying to talk to you when you were in the bath, albeit in an odd way. I don't know if she was trying to stir up drama ( that is an emotional regulator if it leads to a blow up on her part, as it releases them for her) or trying to initiate sex in the bath ( an emotional regulator) but it seems she was upset, or disregulated and trying to involve you to calm herself down. When the bath attempts failed, she then resorted to praying loudly in the bathroom, something which may also work for her.

I think you did very well to hold your boundaries and take care of yourself. Being in pain is a part of the HALT acronym - when someone is in pain, they are not emotionally available. It is important to do self care at these times. Not being emotionally available to someone who tends to need others for emotional regulation can be very triggering to them. That is not your problem to solve. You were not emotionally available, so your wife had to do something else to calm herself down.

I think it is a good thing that she found a way to do this without involving yelling at you or the kids, or doing some other self destructive activity, or drinking, or drugs. I think it is great that this works for her. I don't think you need to manage her conversations between her and God when she is alone in the bathroom.  Put on earphones or a white noise machine and go to sleep. Let Jesus take the BPD wheel for this one.

[formflier]

Thanks... .makes sense. 

FF

[Notwendy]

I think this is also an issue of boundaries on both your parts. You seem to be a take action guy, a fixer, and want to fix her behaviors when she is feeling uncomfortable, but she needs to be left to manage them on her own. It is best for her to do that and if she had a non- destructive way of doing that, then that is good. Often we have difficulties with the feelings of people close to us because we feel uncomfortable too. But managing them is really a way to manage our own discomfort. It's not in their best interests.

Likewise, your uncomfortable feelings cause discomfort for her. She may misinterpret that, and make meaning out of them that isn't there. Then she approaches you for a way to manage her feelings. This is poor boundaries on her part. I think most BPD-non relationships involve poor boundaries on both members of a couple.

I would not spend a lot of effort trying to explain or elicit understanding of your "pain" on her part. She's already uncomfortable with her own feelings. She may be in HALT a lot of the time, and just not able to manage more than she has on her emotional plate already. You do need to hold your boundary on self care when you need to. She may not understand or like it, but that is her emotions to take care of.

I've posted before about my mother's odd responses to my father being seriously ill. She was in "victim " mode a lot. I am sure she was feeling some very difficult emotions during his illness but with only the tools she had to deal with them, she used those tools and her behavior was bizarre. She can only do what she knows how to do.

I have noticed that any discomfort or upset on my part can trigger my H even if it obviously has nothing to do with him. He senses it and even an explanation isn't helpful in the moment. I think all of us feel discomfort when someone we love is uncomfortable. But with boundaries, we know the difference between us and them, what is our feelings and what is theirs. Without such boundaries, it is hard to tell what is what.

We had an odd conversation the other day that thankfully didn't amount to anything. It has helped to not take it personally or try to change it, or even explain. I had been to the dentist for a filling. With a numb face and sore filling, I looked like Grumpy Cat. My H said " you look grumpy, don't be grumpy" I replied " I just had a filling, so I am numb and sore" His response " well that's not my fault" and walked away.

At one point, I may have been offended, started JADING, or gotten upset that he wasn't empathetic. I was also in HALT, and not at my best. I just let it go, but I did think it was odd. Why would I think a filling was his fault? But we can not change someone's thinking. I also think we can misinterpret someone's expressions but we can clarify by asking. To me, a normal conversation would have been " You look grumpy, are you OK?" " I just had a filling and so I am numb and sore". "Oh that's not fun, I hope you feel better soon".

I don't think it is possible to know what your wife thinks when you are in pain, but I don't know if that can be changed. I think it is better to take care of what you need to do, and allow her the space to do the same, so long as neither of you are doing things that are destructive to others.

[formflier]

I'm thinking I did the right thing.

I suppose "costing" me about 15 minutes of sleep is somewhat destructive... .but I also have to consider that the "praying" could have been used as "bait" to draw me into a confrontation had I asked her to "be quieter". (although I get it... she likely didn't "Plot" or "think that through".)

Which would have been a fastball for "you don't want me to pray... you aren't a Christian... etc etc"  Leaving out the detail that loud prayers keep people awake a night just like other loud things.

If this becomes a habit... .I suppose I'll have to address it.

Looking at this another way... .

Perhaps this is a badge of success... .that I "denied" her what she "was looking for" so she tried something totally new.

Sure she has prayed out-loud during the day... but much quieter and for a short period of time.

This was/is a new "thing"... .

FF

[Cat Familiar]

My H said " you look grumpy, don't be grumpy" I replied " I just had a filling, so I am numb and sore" His response " well that's not my fault" and walked away.

I've had these sorts of baffling exchanges with my husband. It's easy to personalize the lack of empathy or sympathy when you are in pain. Good work seeing that exchange for what it is--whatever it is?  

I see two patterns here that occur in my own relationship:
1. It makes him uncomfortable to see me in discomfort
2. He feels "responsible" or thinks I might feel that he's somehow "responsible" for my pain

I've heard my husband say "That's not my fault" for a wide range of things--my physical aches and pains, my irritation with something that's broken that I need to fix, my annoyance with politics du jour--and it has amazed me that he personalizes these things and somehow needs to tell me that he's not responsible? As if I would think he was?

That tells me that he was likely the brunt of blame as a child in his family. And he seems to feel like he's responsible for things way outside his orbit. I can look at this two ways: 1. self absorption, narcissism  or  2. PTSD-ish response to being regularly blamed for things out of his control

[Cat Familiar]

I suppose "costing" me about 15 minutes of sleep is somewhat destructive... .but I also have to consider that the "praying" could have been used as "bait" to draw me into a confrontation had I asked her to "be quieter". (although I get it... she likely didn't "Plot" or "think that through".)

Which would have been a fastball for "you don't want me to pray... you aren't a Christian... etc etc"  Leaving out the detail that loud prayers keep people awake a night just like other loud things.

I think you're absolutely right, FF, that she was trying to bait you into a confrontation where she could question your faith--since that's a typical tactic of hers already.

The loud verbalization certainly can be annoying. I've written how I used to get triggered when my husband would loudly swear, apropos of nothing. It really disturbed my peaceful relaxation to hear that. When I asked him what that was about, his response was either "nothing" or "I'm beating myself up."

I think his behavior serves the same need as your wife's: releasing that balled up BPD anxiety. And that she's using her "prayers" to criticize others: well maybe it's better that than saying those words to them directly.

But, I sympathize with you. Maybe I should get some noise cancelling headphones. Thankfully he doesn't do that behavior very often these days--either that or I'm getting successful at ignoring it. 

[formflier]

There is a further element to this... .he IS (as is my wife) fully and 100% responsible for the manner in which he speaks to you about "personalizing" this.

Certainly my wife has gotten better at this... .but she is responsible for being loud... well past my bedtime.  This is tried and true "path" for her to go down.

Was it "really" destructive?  No... I handled it... .but I have full knowledge that the likelihood of successfully asking her to "be quiet" in situations like that... .is very low.

Sigh...

FF

[Cat Familiar]

There is a further element to this... .he IS (as is my wife) fully and 100% responsible for the manner in which he speaks to you about "personalizing" this.

Yes, that's the crux of the biscuit--had to look that up after I wrote that--Frank Zappa reference, apparently tweaking the expression "crust of the biscuit"... .anyway, yes, yes, yes--they are absolutely responsible for their behavior, no matter what!

And how that's been challenging for me is as a INTJ, being very logical and unemotional and wanting to be accountable for my words and behavior, it strikes me as totally bizarre that people can spew words and act out and not hold themselves answerable for their behavior. To me, it seems like a character defect and contemptible.

But then I remember that pwBPD have deficits in their personal and emotional development and they don't feel accountable for their behavior at times--or they justify it by blaming us, or the world, or whatever. And perhaps they still do feel twinges of guilt--which can easily go underground and add to the shame burden they carry--and then get mad at us just for witnessing their "less than perfection" and put the blame on our shoulders.

So ironic that they deny "responsibility" for things outside their control, yet refuse to take responsibility for their behavior and words.

[formflier]

  To me, it seems like a character defect and contemptible.

 
So ironic that they deny "responsibility" for things outside their control, yet refuse to take responsibility for their behavior and words.

I thing contemptible is the appropriate word... once they make a decision they "they won't deal with it" in a healthy way.  Not doing therapy... etc etc.

My wife understands that real change is possible, because of accountability, with regular therapists (like my P)... she has been around them enough to know that's not for her.

She likes people that "forgive" and "forget" an enable her to judge others... .rather than look in the mirror.

And... yes... .I have contempt for my wife for that attitude.  I'm sure it comes through.  While I don't "attack" her with it... .I also don't feel it is helpful for me to "hide" that attitude for her comfort... .when she wants to dramatically twist things.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Well, as you know Gottman says contempt is one of the Four Horseman in the breakdown of relationships. It's a feeling that I've had to deal with--a lot.

It comes down to core values. If someone refuses to be responsible for their words and actions, how can you have a relationship with them?

To answer that question, I think back to a business book I read a long time ago, which talked about "letting people off the hook". What that meant was that you can observe people not being honorable, but what does it get you to confront them with that? Usually they just put up walls and justify their behavior and pretty soon they're entrenched and unreachable.

The idea from this book was to file that behavior away, knowing that they're capable of that, and to find a bridge to connect with them if you still needed to do business with them. It is gracious and manipulative at the same time.

One of the big issues I had with my husband was learning how his words "didn't matter" at times. I was shocked because hey, he's a lawyer, and so careful with his words in some contexts--then willing to say the most outlandish and crazy things at other times. Trying to hold him accountable for his words totally backfired and caused him to get way more dysregulated and hateful.

When I started letting things go and changing the subject, as if I'd never heard "crazy talk", often I'm able to steer him back to an island of normalcy.

FF, your wife clings to her interpretation of religion (which is undoubtedly quite peculiar at times and very unlike anything Jesus taught) because that's her only tool and it's also part of her identity. Any challenge to her worldview is seen as an attack and therefore "unChristian". That's why even doctors and mental health professionals can easily be dismissed as "secular" because anything that might cause her to question some of her beliefs is seen as a threat.

[formflier]

So... .the "balance" I want to find... and struggle to find is that I "don't want to walk on eggshells", yet I don't want to "enable" and I don't want to "protect" her from the logical and rational reactions to crazy.

I do get it that "persecuting" and "confronting" her is of little benefit.  Yet... .if she fells persecuted because I end a conversation... .I feel confident that's "on her" and "not my circus".

I am careful to express appreciation when appropriate. 

So... .what is my responsibility to "hide" contempt... .when contempt is appropriate?

FF

[Cat Familiar]

I don't know about "hiding contempt"--I think that's darn near impossible unless you're Kenneth Branagh. I'm no Meryl Streep, so I know when I feel that, my husband gets it loud and clear even if I am perfectly civil and kind.

Ideally it's best not to feel it in the first place, easier said than done.

I think it takes some mental gymnastics at first. You would let a three year old off the hook for saying something outlandish. It's difficult to admit that the person we married has the emotional capacity of a child, but hey, that's the reality at times. When I'm not triggered (and I'm getting a lot better in this department), I can hear crazy crap and think "you poor wounded soul" and engage my compassion muscles. I think the key is not getting triggered myself, which is a challenge since pwBPD are really good at pushing our buttons.

The key is how you end a conversation. If you can end it unemotionally and not by identifying any issues or emotional content--all the better. I use distraction a lot--oops, gotta do [fill in the blank] now. Then never return to the topic being discussed if possible, because chances are your pwBPD won't either. Or bring up the topic in a different context hours or days later.

Contempt is a biggie for those of us who are very logical. It seems such a violation of reality when people are willy nilly with facts and reason and LIE and are dishonest. But that's the nature of the BPD beast at times. And think about it--someone must feel really awful inside to behave that way!

[Notwendy]

I think the loud praying is deliberate. I do think your wife knows religion is an important topic to you and that gets your attention. Telling her to stop is a double bind. You could ask her to pray quietly but that could escalate her. She was already upset. I think ignoring was the right thing to do. Once when I was staying with my parents to help with my father, she was crying all over the house. I got him settled and then tried to get some sleep, so she cried louder and louder and nobody got sleep. She isn't used to not having the family be her emotional caretakers and so tried to get us to do that.

From this episode, I think your wife was triggered by you being uncomfortable and taking time to take care of you when she somehow needed to deal with her emotions. You were unavailable, and so, she tried other ways, perhaps even trying to get you to not go to sleep. When that didn't work, she finally calmed herself down.  Praying out loud may be how she does that, and getting even louder could be trying to engage you, but when you ignored her, she eventually settled down.

[empath]

I've ignored "praying", too. (and loud crying... .) Sometimes, it seems best to ignore the problematic behavior rather than give negative attention.

Wasn't FFW told that she needed to "talk to God" quietly after a certain time by the BC?

[formflier]

I've ignored "praying", too. (and loud crying... .) Sometimes, it seems best to ignore the problematic behavior rather than give negative attention.

Wasn't FFW told that she needed to "talk to God" quietly after a certain time by the BC?

Yep... good memory.

That was a "short term" thing to figure out if my wife was contributing to my loss of sleep.  Turns out when she stopped making noise and haranguing me... I slept much better.

One of the few things that improved after BC was that she (by and large) left me alone to sleep. 

FF

[braveSun]

So... .what is my responsibility to "hide" contempt... .when contempt is appropriate?

There is a distinction between the emotion of contempt, which is your emotion. And the expression of that emotion to her, which is your intention/decision.

I struggle a lot with these types of hard emotions myself.
I learned to steer myself out of tuning in and to re-organize my reality. I tell myself some affirmations which short-circuit the inner critique in me. The inner critique wants to listen to all of that stuff projected in my direction and go along with a triggering effect (starts with anxiety in my case). Like in your case I wouldn't want to be nagged, have to stop her from her religious practice, and/or like you say, loose some sleep.

My only control being in my own responses, both to her and to myself... , I think you did have an appropriate response.

Be gentle with yourself, FF. Have your own prayers at other times if you want.
In the meantime, you are enough.   

[GaGrl]

"Contempt" is the word that resonates here, and it is concerning.

My therapist, who did MC with my former husband and me, is a PhD clinical psychologist. He once said that when one or both of the couple displays contempt for the other, it is a strong indicator that the marriage is past his help. He specifically used the word "contempt."

What thoughts, feelings, or behaviors would you say you possess toward your wife that qualify as Contempt?

[formflier]

I'll give the question about contempt some more thought... .I'm up later than normal (my choice).

My quick answer for now is that our religious views have dramatically diverged.  My wife is a hypocrite... .no way around it.

So... what has she done that I find "contemptible"?

Not a complete list... but to give you a flavor. 

It's been about a year since I've asked my wife to forgive me for anything.  I do say I'm sorry, but to those familiar with protestant/Baptist practice... the act of asking for forgiveness is different that "sorry".

Well... .I used to believe that "if there was a doubt", I should talk to her and ask her forgiveness.  Not a good thing to have an internal debate about did I "sin against her".  Especially when you define sin as "falling short of the standard" that you want to uphold as a husband.

Anyway... .I didn't provide good leadership one day... and the kids were insufferable.  I really could have/should have nipped it.

I asked my wife's forgiveness and to pray for me that I would refocus my efforts.

My wife laughed outloud, used the Lords name in vain... .and told me a whacky story about what I was really asking forgiveness for.  Something about taking my family out to eat after church.

I was incredulous... .I "biblically confronted her" and she insisted she didn't laugh.  Would respond to anything else. 

Bible studies got weird... she taught my kids that I'm not a Christian and on a separate occasion that I was a blasphemer... .

So... .unless my wife and I reconcile this, which is in her court... .I'll never again ask her forgiveness or do any "joint" Biblical instruction in our home.  Since then I've stopped several lessons she was teaching our kids.  Some I allow.

The flavor of what I stop is when she is teaching them out to "figure out if people are really Christian"

I'm open for opinions... .but I think those things are "contemptable"

My wife still has lots of other good qualities and things I enjoy about her... .so I try to have boundaries about these things to I can focus on "the good parts" (which are getting smaller).

FF

[Notwendy]

I've mentioned this before, but a relationship with God is a relationship. One half of that is with a human. If that human is dysfunctional, they have dysfunctional relationships- with everyone. That includes God. Just as your wife misinterprets communication between people, she is also going to have her own ideas and relationship with God.

You both speak a common language- it is the language of your denomination. When you speak to other members of your church about "asking for forgiveness" you assume that you both understand what this means. Same with your wife. You assume she understands what you said to her, but she hears your words and then filters them with her ideas about God, and her response is not what you expected.

The 12 steps include a form of asking for forgiveness. The steps were written by Christians but this step is universal to many religions. There is a psychological/spiritual purpose to asking for forgiveness. The wording is important: The first part is to be willing to make amends. For some situations, it is not possible to make amends, but being willing is good enough when that isn't possible. The next part says: “Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others".

What you have stated is that, it feel harmful to you to ask for forgiveness from your wife, due to her mental condition. I think this is an important thing to consider, and also something to get religious council so you aren't going against your own religious values, but it isn't always a safe thing physically or emotionally to ask a person for forgiveness.

On the other hand, keep in mind, that the asking for forgiveness benefits the person asking. We can ask, but we may not get it, but that doesn't change the benefit of a sincere apology for us.

[Cat Familiar]

My therapist, who did MC with my former husband and me, is a PhD clinical psychologist. He once said that when one or both of the couple displays contempt for the other, it is a strong indicator that the marriage is past his help. He specifically used the word "contempt."

My P who introduced me to Gottman's books also pointed out how dangerous contempt can be. I certainly have experience with that concept, as does my husband, but I think I was quite a bit further down the "contempt road" than he was. I no longer feel that way, other than occasional twinges of irritation/disrespect.

I may be jumping to conclusions about your feelings, FF, but the circumstance that I think elicits contempt is behavioral divergence from presented values. In the case of my husband--presenting the appearance of being centered and compassionate--then getting sh1tfaced drunk and acting like a lunatic and trying to rope me into his crazy dramas.

Whereas your wife wants to appear the perfect Baptist wife, then she is highly critical of others and accuses them (and you) of not being Christians. (I'm not a practicing Christian, but I vaguely recall a passage about getting the beam out of one's own eye first... .)

So there's the conundrum that those of us who want to be honest and direct face: how do we square this behavior that doesn't match their values (nor our values) and really, is it our responsibility to point that out to them?

Well, I tried, and I made things worse for both of us. He withdrew and I withdrew even further and the drinking continued, just more hidden. But at a certain point, I gave up trying to "intervene" and things got better. I worked on my own anger and disappointment and things got better. He still drinks, but he seems to be finding a level of moderation. I don't comment on it at all and things are better.

I don't know what you can do about your wife's hypocrisy about her religious views. That seems totally out of your control. The only people I imagine she would listen to would be church elders. I wonder how they would address her indictments of non-Christianity.

So I guess the only thing left for you to do, FF, is to work on your own feelings about her behavior. Being that I'm so process-oriented, I ask myself "How do I feel about feeling this way?" And if I don't like the answer, I figure out how I can change my feelings about how I'm feeling. I hope that doesn't sound too convoluted.

[Red5]

I think that the contempt emotion is used as a self protect emotion, as well an unregulated emotion by pw/BPD, I am experiencing this currently from my own u/BPDw.

Red5 (on the road and far from home) 

[braveSun]

I think that the contempt emotion is used as a self protect emotion, as well an unregulated emotion by pw/BPD, I am experiencing this currently from my own u/BPDw.

I like Red's concept. Reminds me of anger, being a secondary emotion. Protecting a primary emotion.
Contempt is a form of anger, right?

I also like FF distinction about saying that something is contemptible, versus expressing contempt. The idea is that with our difficult people, discrepancies between their presented values and how they apply it to themselves and others are bound to happen.

I see that the trick is to try to depersonalize that, as much as we can, to seek help and support for ourselves as much as we can, to recognize the need for support, to sort our needs out for ourselves, and than, the concept of values not being respected can be a bit less painful than.

It's rather a logical proposal, not necessary pointing to how to correct the situations arising.

It appears that for our pwBPD/NPD, finding fault in us is a part of their drive. Maybe as a learned strategy. That puts us in a wholly disadvantaged position, because we do have human vulnerabilities, just like everybody else.

I think that finding myself into that zone of strong anger (contempt, or other forms of strong anger) is where I need to learn about me. For me, it's my need to get some long term action plan completed, and to find alternate support (at least on the emotional level) until I can demonstrate by my actions that the results are not going along my spouse's negative conclusions/opinions of me. For someone else, the vulnerability would be something else.

When there is a long term plan of action needing to be deployed, there are specific vulnerabilities along the way. We discover them as we go. Because it's only the human thing to plan, and we cannot control life with plans.

It's a very difficult lesson for me.

I'm sure that for everybody who is serious in staying with a pwBPD, this aspect must be dealt with. I have much respect for your candid sharing FF. And for the wise inputs I read into this thread. It's all revealing about something so very human...