Ex has cut me off Facebook - Part 1

[Depression = 72% of members]

True NC means blocking every channel of communication and never replying to any message she ever manages to get through if she finds a way. I don’t have BPD and so to me that feels heartless and cruel. But that is precisely how she has behaved towards me for years. Constant ST, pulling away, disrespecting me, dipping in and out when it suits. Taking too much interest in my wife’s FB activity, controlling, monitoring, abusing and always pushing me away. I’m sick of it. Time to be cruel to be kind to myself. I hate it, it feels heartless disloyal and I care what happens to her but she will never change and never care about how I feel. I can’t do this anymore.

Sometimes you have to play at the same level as the person. There is little point showing kindness/manners/politeness when faced with disrespect. Respect has to be earned. I dont see your choice in the circumstances as heartless, cruel or disloyal.

[Cromwell]

True NC means blocking every channel of communication and never replying to any message she ever manages to get through if she finds a way. I don’t have BPD and so to me that feels heartless and cruel. But that is precisely how she has behaved towards me for years. Constant ST, pulling away, disrespecting me, dipping in and out when it suits. Taking too much interest in my wife’s FB activity, controlling, monitoring, abusing and always pushing me away. I’m sick of it. Time to be cruel to be kind to myself. I hate it, it feels heartless disloyal and I care what happens to her but she will never change and never care about how I feel. I can’t do this anymore.

Sometimes you have to play at the same level as the person. There is little point showing kindness/manners/politeness when faced with disrespect. Respect has to be earned. I dont see your choice in the circumstances as heartless, cruel or disloyal.

[RomanticFool]

Thanks Cromwell,

I’m trying not to be, but equally I am making it clear that hurting me whenever she feels like it is no longer something I will accept. I think she probably did it as a way of getting me to react or as punishment for not talking to her during the week, but I was busy as hell. This is the ultimate irony, she can be as aloof and distant as she likes but if I’m busy when she wants my attention then I get punished. That is abuse in my book.

She will justify it and say that I have cut her off FB numerous times but whenever I have done it there has usually been an event in which she has hurt me. I suppose she is doing much the same thing except I did nothing to hurt her. I was simply busy.

I can feel my stance softening today. I want to unblock her on WhatsApp and metaphorically go running back into her arms. But that’s the point, there is no warmth from her. Just punishment and passive aggression. I used to believe that she always felt th same way I did and was also longing to end any argument or feud, but I now believe she doesn’t give it much thought until such time as she has a need for her ‘supply’ of affirmation. Then she’ll become the waif again, the damsel in distress and try to get me to change me running. I would say with a pout or a flick of her eyes, but the flip side is that she could just as easily flip into despair and then it becomes dangerous for herself. I don’t want that for her... .Can you hear me softening? Round the Mulberry Bush we go!

[Skip]

RM,

You have come to understand that relationship was a fantasy. Be careful. Don't let the breakup also become a fantasy.  Ground yourself. And when you lose perspective, seek it and ground yourself again.

You all know what she meant to me. However, at this point in time I feel it was of no value whatsoever because it was predicated on a lie. The lie that there was some kind of long-lasting r/s in there. It has never been a r/s. It has been a ‘supply’ for her BPD needs. That is all I have been to her. She was my North, My South, My East and West... .which is why I am a fool.

Remind yourself. The biggest lie has been to her husband and your wife who have been deceived for a decade.

Remind yourself that this was never a relationship - it was an escape from your relationships.

Remind yourself that the conflict in this relationship was largely around your fantasy wants and her fantasy wants conflicting. She wanted validation when she hit rough patches in her real world. You likes the sex (and the intimacy, and the romance). You both treated each other very poorly - inflicted pain on each other to get your way (or her way). There was very little respect. People who love each other treat each other with love.

Remind yourself  that she lived everyday of the last 10 years with a family that she cooked for and helped the kids in school - the family that served her breakfast on mothers days or sat in their pajamas on Christmas morning and watched their favorite holiday tradition movies.

I know this hurts. It's a real and tangible loss for you. You had this affair for a long time and its part of your fabric, your being, your thought process. We're here to help you with this.

Don't fantasize the reality - get in touch with it. Don't cast yourself as the victim - you both damaged your innocent spouses in all of this - there was no nobility here.  Being free of this very important to your future mental health, financial stability, and stability and your marriage. One "tell all" phone call could crash your or her life.

Lean into the reality.

[RomanticFool]

Skip,

Let me clarify the lie to which I am referring. I did not cheat on my wife for 10 years. In all of the emotion the timeline gets confused. Let me remind you:

16 years ago I was single and looking for love. I went on a dating website where I met my ex and she claimed to be single. She went on video cam so we could see each other and told me she was at work - she was - working at home with her husband sitting about 3 feet away out of shot. She told me she was single. That is the lie I am really referring to. She waited until we had slept together and I was hooked before telling me the truth. That same night she invited me back to her house. I sensibly declined. I have asked her a thousand times subsequently why she did that. She has never had an answer. I have often suspected it was revenge at her husband for cheating on her. That is the reality of how it started. She told me at the time that her marriage was in a bad place. That is not my fantasy, that is what actually happened. That was Phase 1 of the r/s and lasted less than 2 years because I could not cope with her behaviour and it was clear that she had no intention of leaving her husband. He had also contracted cancer and I bowed out.

The next time I saw her was 8 years later. There was a gap of 8 years. She tracked me down and asked to meet me. As I had just got married, albeit in a sexless r/s, I felt safe and met up with her more out of curiosity rather than any conscious desire to rekindle a r/s. Since I knew her husband had been ill all those years ago, I assumed he had died.

When we met she love bombed me. Told me how she had always thought about me and was in love with me. I told her I had just got married and showed her my wedding photos and she burst into tears. She regretted not being able to express how she felt about me in the past. I asked about her husband and when she revealed he was still alive, I was confused and asked her why she wanted to meet up. She said, she had always thought about me and that she was going to make changes in her life. I walked away sceptical, guarded but smitten.

What followed was cheating on my wife and for that I hold my hands up and take full responsibility. But the facts of the matter are, she lied and manipulated all along. When we first reconnected I kept saying I didn’t want an affair. She begged me to call her in Vegas, where she was with her husband and was in tears. I asked her what was wrong and she said she wanted me to tell her that I loved her... .

I am reminded of the line from Othello, ‘Demand of this demi-devil why he has ensnared my body and soul thus.’

Yes, I cheated on my wife. Yes, I am responsible for that. But don’t think that I am not a victim of her disorder because I am afraid that I am. It is now up to me to mitigate that damage and make amends to my wife by being faithful.

[Skip]

The lying that she was single in 2002 was bad - she shouldn't have done that. That is on her.

You all know what she meant to me. However, at this point in time I feel it was of no value whatsoever because it was predicated on a lie. The lie that there was some kind of long-lasting r/s in there. It has never been a r/s.

Aren't you talking about the time period 2009 - 2108 (approximately). You were married then. You knew she was married. You had eight years of separation and a marriage to heal.

Is it realistic to tag the reuniting on her and as a lie.

There are victims, survivors, and thrivors.  Who do you identify with?

Again, we all understand the pain. Your emotions are real. Be careful not to use the emotions to cast an alternative reality that has you as the victim in the center, unless it is absolutely true.

Narrow the wound to what it is. The reality, is painful. Don't add to it.

[Sunfl0wer]

This woman took me to the brink of self destruction. I see that now. She kept back and forth into my life lying, manipulating and deceiving me when she knew full well that she was never going to be available to me. What I really feel towards her right now is disdainful disrespect. I have allowed her disordered way of doing things to affect my life in a very negative and damaging way. I feel like I have woken up from a long slumber.

I wonder how your outlook and current emotional state would shift if... .

If you held in your mind the version of her that is a liar... .
Alongside the version of her where you had an amazing and wonderful, and irreplacable connection.

Can you see these two concepts sitting side by side?

Fyi... .I in no way at all doubt any of your reality.  (Believing that could take trust... .and I’m no easier to trust than any other internet stranger here I suppose.)
Just probing to see how you can shift in your own mind.  
You seem to “toggle” from one reality to another.
What would happen if realities merged a wee?
How painful is that?

How painful is it for you to be both aware that you two shared something wonderful and magnificent AND very much REAL... .
AND... .she lied to you.

Can you hold those ideas in your head together?

(That is the grief I was trying to get to.  

[Gemsforeyes]

Dear RF-
Why go 'round the mulberry bush?  Whose best interests does that serve - yours? Your ex's? Your W's? Her H's?

You know that saying... ."keep your head where your heels are". - it seems to apply so well in your situation.  It makes no matter anymore who lied when over the course of these years.  It doesn't matter anymore that the initial love bombing was predicated on a lie - that she was single and available when she was not.  Today is today, not 16 years ago.

This relationship has tortured you.  It has caused you so much pain, sadness and internal conflict.  Where is the joy in that?  This does not seem to have brought you an "escape" from married life.  Ever.  It seems your W had no involvement in this external relationship at all.  This relationship seems to have caused more pain for you than joy - pretty much from the onset.  You never understood why, if she was so unhappy in her marriage and so in love with you, that she didn't leave.  She will never leave.  So you have to leave.  In every way.

We all have memories we need to box up and put away.  Memories of perhaps our greatest loves, that simply weren't to be, for whatever reason.  And some of those reasons are incredibly painful.  But we have the strength to do it.  I had the strength to do it.  And you do, too.  I know you do, RF.

You don't need these childish Facebook or WhatsApp or phone or email games any longer.  You control this contact.  You control YOUR actions.  How do YOU want to feel from today on?  Tell me.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[RomanticFool]

“Aren't you talking about the time period 2009 - 2108 (approximately). You were married then. You knew she was married. You had eight years of separation and a marriage to heal.”

The original lie is like an inciting incident in a film. Everything else sprung out of that and set the saga in motion. There are all kinds of implications in it. I was at a time in my life when I wanted to stop drinking and in fact did so not long after our first night together. I had already lost a brother, my mother was dying and I had been embroiled in another long-winded break up from a previous r/s due to poor behaviour on my part. I am not assuaging myself of blame. I think what fuels my indignation is had I met a better suited partner at that point in my life it may have changed the whole course of my life for the better. I went on the dating site wanting to start afresh having dealt with a lot of emotional wreckage and I met this Goddess, who frankly could have had her pick of any man on there, and she zoned in on me. It takes two to tango and all that but she knew exactly what she was doing and was drawn to me partly because of what I do for a living, but also probably because our emotional lives were similar. Had she been honest with me at that point, everything could have been different. What I am angry about is by reeling me in back then and keeping me dangling on the hook, I never had a chance with anybody else. Then she pulled the same stunt 8 years later.

Now, I have major responsibility in this too. It’s not all her fault and my own morality was impaired, but getting involved with her made it ten times worse. The attachment created limerence and obsession and she knew it from day one and enjoyed it.

I am very much a thrivor. I will get over it and I’ll be wiser for it but I am not going to pretend that the r/s has not profoundly damaged me because it has. It has taken away time. I would be free of her now and gone through the pain last year but you all know how that played out. She realised I was serious about ending the push/pull and she made/claimed a suicide attempt.

So the past does matter. We are often shaped by it. I don’t regret meeting her, I regret the fact that she lied and manipulated in order to keep me attached. She gave just enough of herself to me to keep me interested. I know it is her disorder at work but she has a lot of advantages in life and awareness of her mental health and has made no attempt whatsoever to change her behaviour, specifically in this r/s because she simply doesn’t want to. That is what I am really upset about. I see it as a lack of respect towards me.

[RomanticFool]

I don’t want to go round the Mulberry Bush believe me Gems. I want to wake up tomorrow and be free of her, but I am bewitched by her. She is my love heroin. I only have to set eyes on her and I am lost. Nobody in my entire life has ever had that effect on me and had we both been sane and single it would have been a wonderful basis to start from. I find her fascinating as a person and enjoyed art galleries, cinema, discussions about art, psychology, mental health, sport etc. She fascinates me. I guess deep down I simply feel horribly betrayed and rejected and can’t quite understand how it got to this. I don’t know if part of it is ego ie how can she reject the great ME? How can she not see my good heart, my loving character, my wit and wisdom. It’s like I’m living in constant denial and then anger and then nostalgia for what we had. It’s been a loop like that for years. It isn’t just to do with physical attraction but, my God, that is a big part of it. I think it stays alive in my head because it was everything I don’t have now.

I could easily have talked her around from cutting me off FB. I could have told her I was hurt and said how much I’d missed her but I am simply outraged that nothing ever changes. I don’t want this loneliness anymore. I don’t want to be her victim.

[Skip]

I could easily have talked her around from cutting me off FB. I could have told her I was hurt and said how much I’d missed her but I am simply outraged that nothing ever changes. I don’t want this loneliness anymore. I don’t want to be her victim.

What changes do you want?

[RomanticFool]

The changes I want are not to let her live in my head rent free!

For me the saddest part of this whole sorry mess is that I thought I knew her. When we were together she seemed loving and gentle and into me. I mistook that for love.

I find I know as little about her now as I did 16 years ago. She is as much a mystery and enigma now as she was back then.

Instead of second guessing her thoughts and emotional life it is better to judge on actions. In 2002 I judged her on her actions and walked away. In 2012-2018 I judged her on what I thought was going on in her head.

[Skip]

If you judge her on her actions for 2017-2018, where are you?

[Gemsforeyes]

Dear RF-

There you have it!  I have said so many times, I would almost watch the words of my lover tumble out of his mouth and scatter on the floor.  So many promises... .When the words are empty and the actions are cruel or hollow, what have we left?

I must also say, we practically lived together for 4.5 years and I fear I know as little about his truth now as the day we met.  That scares me to no end.  I am the fool.

Gems

[RomanticFool]

I suppose what I mean is when I initially met up with her in 2012 and discovered that nothing had changed in her life that should have been a big red flag. I just didn’t know what she really wanted. Had I realised she was looking for diversion round two I might have stopped the fantasy dead in it’s tracks. I behaved appallingly towards my wife, I realise that and it is part of the moral corruption in my life, that I allowed myself to do it. I justified it as I deserved some passion. It was wrong and unfair but when the ex came back into my life the fantasy then became: ‘This is a the real love of my life. I’ve made a mistake getting married. Do I have the courage to fix it?’

The 8 year gap in between the r/s had made me forget how awful I felt emotionally at her hands. Plus, I believed that she was going to change her circumstances because she seemed different, more sane and most of all, empathic. It was simply love-bombing 2.

I am glad I am beginning to feel real guilt and empathy for how I have behaved towards my wife. My ex sponsor in AA ended our friendship because he didn’t see how my behaviour was commensurate with a ‘spiritual programme.’ I felt no guilt whatsoever. Perhaps that is my own disorder?

[RomanticFool]

Gems,

You’re not a fool. We would all go to the ends of the earth for love. I believe most of us on here are emotionally vulnerable romantics. Otherwise why would we get so embroiled? Perhaps we are too empathic (well not me) or feel emotions more strongly than other so called nons. Or, as I now think in my case, my emotions have always had the volume turned up to high, which suggests some kind of BPD traits going on without the full on disorder. I’ve never had identity issues or recurrent suicidal behaviours or paranoia but I’ve had degrees of everything else, the biggest of which is abandonment. So here I am, drawn to my emotional equal... .

[Insom]

I believe most of us on here are emotionally vulnerable romantics. Otherwise why would we get so embroiled?

I got embroiled, I think, because I inherited a distorted concept of love - what it is, how it feels, what you need to do to get it - from a narcissistic parent. 

[Gemsforeyes]

Whew RF, and everyone who has contributed to this thread - what an emotional interaction this has been.  Not sure about the rest of you, but this has caused me to look (again) at my own situation.  The pain and sadness of it.  My decision to end it, to let it slip away and what, how much it took to get me to that point.  It was so difficult to let him go. 

But in the end, there was so little left to love.  I couldn't make excuses anymore for his behavior.  I stopped believing my own excuses.  Because I was so weak when I had to end it, I never told him it was over.  I simply let it silently slip away after another of his rages.  But this time I didn't let him come back.

I had to ignore most of his attempts at contact.  I have not seen his face or heard his voice since 2/16/2018.  But I still wake up in drenched nightmares of him screaming at me.  I am so lonely in this place.  And I know with a phone call or a text I could bring him back in.  But why?  That IS the question... .WHY?

Just something to think about.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[formflier]

I am glad I am beginning to feel real guilt and empathy for how I have behaved towards my wife. My ex sponsor in AA ended our friendship because he didn’t see how my behaviour was commensurate with a ‘spiritual programme.’ I felt no guilt whatsoever. Perhaps that is my own disorder?

Hey RF... .I'm encouraged that you are "feeling" new things towards your wife.  Don't force that or stop it... just let it kinda happen.

The actions and deliberate conversations about your relationship I would "force" (encourage is likely better word).  Your feelings will catch up.

As for others "criticizing" your feelings or kicking you out of programs because of your feelings... .  I would encourage you to resist buying into their view. 

Perhaps it is true your feelings "move at a different pace" than others.  Don't apologize for being you.  You had no guilt before and now you do.  So feelings are there and seem to be working... and are working at RFs own pace. 

     Lots of introspection going on in RF's world... .keep it up.  Be kind to yourself!
FF

[RomanticFool]

FF,

Thanks for the encouragement. I’m comfortable with where I’m at in the world and none of what I’ve written is from a perspective of beating myself up, but more from trying to understand my own behaviour.

I think the answer regarding why I felt no guilt is probably more straightforward than I have made it in all my posts since I’ve been on here. It is basically I wanted my ex and I was going to have her and nothing was going to stop me. I can dress it up in psychobabble as much as I want but when you come down to it, I was willing to risk my non-sexual r/s for passion with a gorgeous, sexy woman. I probably didn’t feel guilt because I didn’t go back home and have sex with my wife. There were no repercussions and no chance of getting caught or putting my wife’s health at risk. As distasteful as all that sounds I think it is the truth.

Perhaps I’m only feeling guilty now because I feel like I should. I do feel that I’ve been unfair on my wife but what else am I supposed to do with my sexuality. This is now the pertinent question, I guess.

Gems,
 
It sounds to me that you put up with as much of his BPDish behaviour for as long as you could tolerate and then you could take no more. I feel exactly the same and empathise with your feelings. The affairs of the heart are what make us all tick and having a wonderful love is a lovely gift. If you’re anything like me, you probably wanted it to last forever but the price became too high. We have to put boundaries in place to save our sanity. Damaged people can take us down without even knowing they are doing it. Stick with the caring people.

RF

[Cromwell]

If you think about it RF, what we dont know cant hurt us.

If I wouldnt have had the "love you, love you, love you" on loop from my ex, until the day it went 180 change against me, she didnt need to let me know she had cheated on me - I wouldnt have known, wouldnt have had to confront the heavy emotions of betrayal, hurt, disappointment.

You were in the affair for a long time, you got a lot of advantages, maybe in some way it saved your marriage - if you look it at from that side.

[RomanticFool]

Hi Cromwell,

I can’t look at it like that right now. It just feels like betrayal from start to finish. I’ve said on here that I felt we had a pact of love and trust between us. Ironic in the face of the betrayal of our spouses, I know, but I felt that pact existed. It was an illusion and I should have seen who she really is as a person. It was pretty clear. Why am I surprised that a woman who is cheating on her husband was prone to mendacity and being untrustworthy?

That is perhaps the crux of the situation. A flawed idea of who she was and what our r/s was from the beginning. I tried to make it about what I wanted rather than who she really was. In my fantasy I was the single man from 2002 hoping his fairytale Goddess would come back and confess undying love. The reality is that she was always married and unavailable from start to finish and in Phase two of the r/s, I was married and unavailable and should not have engaged with her.

I think ultimately it has affected me so deeply because it was really all about rejection and abandonment. I was trying to undo that rejection I felt from 2002 and win my love over. Romantic Fool indeed.

[Skip]

I am glad I am beginning to feel real guilt and empathy for how I have behaved towards my wife. My ex sponsor in AA ended our friendship because he didn’t see how my behaviour was commensurate with a ‘spiritual programme.’ I felt no guilt whatsoever. Perhaps that is my own disorder?

You say a lot in this passing paragraph. I'm re-posting it to reflect back on.

We don't judge you here. Yes, a few people over the year have taken some shots at your (an you handled them well), but that is not our role in your life.

That said, there are some very deep character issues at stake here and for most of your membership we have glossed over them.

You are pretty fast to impugn her character. You let us know that you have some guilt on some level. What I don't see is a man embracing an opportunity to rehabilitate himself in his own eyes.

Rehabilitate himself... .
in his own eyes.

You have lived a life of pathological lying for a decade. Your partner is a pathological liar. This whole affair world is so corrupt that the people around you in real life would wake away from you if they knew. You've said that.

You have a chance right now to seek a higher level of character. Be a better man. Why not embrace this? Why not rise to a new level in life.

As affairs go, this one didn't really have any mediating factors. Its one thing to have a short affair in a turbulent time and learn a lesson. It one thing to have an affair in a extended period of isolation (like military service). It one thing to be in an affair as a marriage crashes and burns. It another to be in something like this.

Hang with me. It's not a judgement. I promise you.

You now have a clear pathway to leaving this dark cloud behind you. Does that not invigorate you? (honest question) It's one thing to feel loss and guilt - but there  is a flip side to these negative feelings - a significant life win.

How motivating is that?  Are you in a different place now than when your sponsor dropped you, or are you in the same place?

[RomanticFool]

You now have a clear pathway to leaving this dark cloud behind you. Does that not invigorate you? (honest question) It's one thing to feel loss and guilt - but there  is a flip side to these negative feelings - a significant life win.

How motivating is that?  Are you in a different place now than when your sponsor dropped you, or are you in the same place?

I am glad we are talking about this. Now that I have a little distance from my pain, I am in a much better position to answer these questions truthfully.

I want to reveal something that you probably already know. I don't really suffer from guilt around the affair. I want to - there are flickers from time to time. But in all honesty, it is hardly there at all.

My former sponsor in AA suggested to me that perhaps I was psychopathic in nature. He spent years trying to tell me that I did feel guilty around the affair, but I was concealing it. I told him that I felt no guilt whatsoever. He couldn't cope with that and walked away. We have reconnected now as friends but we do not discuss my personal life.

I care about my wife very much. We have a lovely, warm r/s at the moment, though we both have our abandonment issues and I know a little about mine. She is less aware of her behaviours and it can make her behave in self-centred ways and become judgemental towards me. However, nothing like the ex and I can cope with my wife's idiosyncrasies.

It could be that perhaps I don't feel guilty because the affair was never discovered. My wife is not angry at the betrayal because she doesn't know about it and therefore there is no price to be paid. I suspect if I could see pain and suffering in her that would trigger my guilt big time. I don't think I am psychopathic. I have empathy, I feel emotions very strongly.

In my teens and 20's I never cheated on anybody. I was a serial monogamist and often had my heart handed to me on a silver platter. My mother was a strong influence in my life and demanded gestures of love from my dad and often complained that none of us cared enough about her. She often wanted trinkets of love from my dad to prove his love. She gave me an idea of love that no other woman in my life has ever displayed. Most of my mother's demands were all about her. Looking back, she may have had NPD traits. I don't want to diagnose her as I am not a doctor. But my idea of love was all or nothing. Black or white. Total devotion or the other person is not worthy.

When I started drinking heavily and became established in my profession, I became a lothario, or at least tried to. I never really had the looks or body to carry it off, but I did ok. In my early thirties a very beautiful woman became fixated on me and I found her controlling nature intolerable. I went away to work alot and then began cheating with other women. I then ended the r/s and took up with one of the women i cheated on her with, promptly regretted it and tried to get my ex gf back. She was already with another man and had, in fact, become pregnant by this other man. I stuck with the new gf but spent all of my time regretting what happened with the ex. This became the pattern for many of my relationships: Attachment, engulfment, regret. Attachment, engulfment, regret. The regret was always the strongest feeling of all, because it encompassed so much pain and in every case a strong fantasy of how this person was the answer to my life's quest for love and was going to save me.

That kind of co-dependency has largely receded into the past - or at least I thought it had. I can now see I have been playing the same pattern out with the ex over a very long period of time. It's like these emotions have replaced my old healthier emotions that I used to feel about my lovers ie excitement at a new r/s, desire to spend time with them and conduct a loving r/s. In later life it became me chasing women who had rejected me and then when they came on too strong I ran away. I know this phenomenon as love addiction. You may think it shows some kind of personality disorder. I have no idea. All I know is that it has caused me so much pain over the years. I even started repeating this cycle of behaviour with my various agents. I would spend a few years with them, something would happen and I would move on in emotion and then try and get back with them. However, in business, as in love, this does not play well because people become angry and feel betrayed. It has affected my business life as much as my love life. I am trying not to do it. I have no idea why I do. I would really like to know what the hell is wrong with me.

[RomanticFool]

In answer to your question about whether I want to embrace a better way of life: yes I do, very much. It was how I always was, the loyal, loving and trustworthy man. I have become morally corrupted. I would like to be the person I consider that I really am. Before I can do that, I have to figure out exactly where the schizm in my character lies and why it occurred for so long. What is it in my life and background that has allowed me to become so oblivious or wreckless to the danger of hurting my partners? I truly don't understand how it happened.

[RomanticFool]

Sunfl0wer,

To finally address your much earlier question:

I wonder how your outlook and current emotional state would shift if... .

If you held in your mind the version of her that is a liar... .
Alongside the version of her where you had an amazing and wonderful, and irreplacable connection.

Can you see these two concepts sitting side by side?

Fyi... .I in no way at all doubt any of your reality.  (Believing that could take trust... .and I’m no easier to trust than any other internet stranger here I suppose.)
Just probing to see how you can shift in your own mind. 
You seem to “toggle” from one reality to another.
What would happen if realities merged a wee?
How painful is that?

How painful is it for you to be both aware that you two shared something wonderful and magnificent AND very much REAL... .
AND... .she lied to you.

Can you hold those ideas in your head together?

(That is the grief I was trying to get to.  cool)

It is very hard at the moment to hold two conflicting concepts regarding my ex because my anger wants to paint her black. By doing this it justifies my sense of betrayal and in some seismic way, allows me to illustrate the potency and earth-shattering nature of such a great love.

So I can see perhaps I am dramatising the emotions and I am blocking any sense of the good part of the r/s. Yes, there was good. It is very painful to recount but here is the good about her:

I believe this woman is very special. I believe that despite her disorder she is an exceptional person and wants to be a caring human being. I don't think people become counsellors just to deal with their own pathology and so there must be a deep empathy in her that she wants to help others. I have rarely seen this side of her. It's like because she doesn't see me as suicidal, I am irrelevant. It is this dismissal and disregard for my feelings that outrages me the most, especially when she seems to have boundless empathy for people on the end of the phone.

She is beautiful and elegant and has an ironic wit. There is a deep disturbance within her that is often displayed when we are together, in the form of tears and need for my embrace. I think that emotional connection is what has kept me hooked for so long.

We seem to share many interests, or rather I share hers, rather than her sharing mine. She interests and excites me like few women ever have. Am I drawn to the damage or the real person? She seems to trigger the rescuer in me and I am a sucker for a damsel in distress... .

[BeagleGirl]

In answer to your question about whether I want to embrace a better way of life: yes I do, very much. It was how I always was, the loyal, loving and trustworthy man. I have become morally corrupted. I would like to be the person I consider that I really am. Before I can do that, I have to figure out exactly where the schizm in my character lies and why it occurred for so long. What is it in my life and background that has allowed me to become so oblivious or wreckless to the danger of hurting my partners? I truly don't understand how it happened.

RomanticFool,
I don't know if this will help, but I can share some of my journey of understanding/reconciling my willingness to "be oblivious or wreckless to the danger of hurting my partner".  

You may remember my story, but to recap, I had an affair after 19 years of marriage to my dBPDxh.  The emotional affair lasted probably 6 months and the physical affair only lasted 6 weeks.  I ended the affair, confessed to my dBPDxh and spent about 2 years doing everything in my power to repair my marriage.  Our divorce this year had nothing to do with my affair from my point of view (other than my affair and recovery time opening my eyes to the damage in my marriage that had been present all along).  

What I probably haven't detailed before is that I did not WANT to end my affair.  I had started suffering from panic attacks and I felt like God was forcing my hand.  I wanted to continue in the relationship with my affair partner as long as I could, but I was falling apart mentally, emotionally, and physically.  I was pretty open with some of the friends that supported me in the days after I ended my affair that I didn't feel guilty.  That's when I started actively working to understand the ugliness of what I had done.  That's not a task for the faint of heart, let me assure you.  

Ultimately I had to face the selfishness and self-deception that I used to justify my choices.  I discarded the premise that any abuse or neglect on the part of our spouses "deserved" a response of betrayal on our parts.
 I recognized that I had full choice in the matter and, therefore, full responsibility.  While this understanding is incredibly empowering from the standpoint of knowing that I can CHOOSE to never engage in an affair again and has given me the strength to not seek out my affair partner again, it also means that I have had to wrestle with what my choices say about who I was and who I am.  

My therapist and I argue a bit about the degree to which my experience with dBPDxh influenced the decisions that led to my affair.  I tend to take full ownership of those decisions, and can see the "outs" I had that would have allowed me to avoid the damage I caused to my family, my affair partner's family, and to my own self.  My therapist is a bit more gracious and, while she doesn't justify my actions, has made statements about how dBPDxh's treatment of me left me ripe for an affair.  

I am at peace with the knowledge that it was BeagleGirl who made those choices (and who is responsible for not making those choices in the future) and that BeagleGirl would have been just as capable of making those same choices in an alternate universe where I had been married to a loving man.  That capacity is a part of me, but it isn't me, if that makes any sense.  

If anything in my story catches your thoughts and you want more details about my journey, please feel free to ask.  I have become pretty familiar with the lies I told myself and the ways I twisted my selfish motives to make them appear altruistic.  Since that discovery was so helpful for me, I would be happy to explore them with you.

BG

[formflier]

BG and RF,

With some "trepidation" I share my view on affairs and "affair prevention".  BG... I'm not arguing with you but I am pushing you towards your T's position... a bit.

IMO:  Part of being married is physical and emotional intimacy.  Human beings can only handle so much.  Use the analogy of eating, once your full... .another hot steaming steak filet just doesn't seem as attractive.
 
Well... I try to extend that out.

If my wife and I are keeping each other "full"... .there just isn't room for more.  Certainly there are times when "the waiter" is slow and bringing another serving... .but we don't leave for another restaurant.

But... what do you do when the waiter tells you there is no more... that you are stupid for wanting more... .that its your fault... .

BG... be kind to yourself.  I worry you "own that" too much.   


Anyway... .for RF... .I suspect you understand there will be uncomfortable times of reflection.  I encourage you to embrace them, yet find a way to be kind to yourself.  It's a balancing act.

Best to you!

FF

[RomanticFool]

Hi Beagle Girl,

Feel free to share your experience. It all helps. I am very much missing talking to my ex but I know that if I allow her to keep treating me badly it will affect my self-esteem. I still feel lighter and I also think that if she is fine with cutting me off FB after not seeing her for 17 months then that just illustrates the poor situation I allowed myself to accept. I am sad that I don’t talk to her anymore but feel empowered by my stance of drawing a clear boundary in this situation.

I have also been thinking today that even though she was ‘honest’ about coming to London with her family... .so what? Am I expected to like the fact that she is playing happy families while I am once again marginalised? The fact that she is so solid with her family is a reason in itself to walk away and I wish I had done that years ago and said the following:

I care more for you than I have for any other woman. However, you are still in love with your husband and I am married. As much as it pains me to walk away from somebody I adore, history has shown that you are happy to stay in your marriage and I must now focus on my own marriage. I can’t do that if all I am thinking about is you. Since you have taken a decision to stay in your marriage I must now walk away in order to save mine. I wish you peace and happiness.

[Insom]

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