Our anniversary is coming - What to do with the silent treatment?

[braveSun]

Next week is going to be our second year anniversary. I have been in this relationship for 18+ years, and almost two years ago I came to join my SO in her country and married her.

Things have not been as I had expected between us however.

Something new that is now developing is that she has stopped answering my calls about two weeks ago. This is not usual from her at all. I'm starting to have concerns about what is happening with her.

Here is a bit of a backstory.
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=326642.0

In all of our history in the past, there certainly has been times where we didn't connect for a few days at a time, but never to this scale. Unless she had an affair, or we were in a break up. Break ups usually were very clearly stated as such, so no mystery going, nothing similar to this.

Little goes to say, I am learning everyday.

While I am not sure about what this might mean, I am trying my best to not let this peculiar behavior affect me. But it's becoming difficult to ignore as time goes by.

I called twice last week after 6 days of silence and was greeted by her voice mail. She sent an obtuse email back with 2 pictures. I replied saying I'd send pictures of my own back, but didn't.  Something in me was not feeling good about the situation, and I don't know what it was. I called her back instead, asking her to let me know if she was OK, if she had visit with her, so I could stop worrying. 

She didn't respond.

I texted a tenant living on the property to check on her, and the tenant replied that my spouse was OK, she was with her son and grandson.

Normally if my spouse has visits or something going on, she will let me know. Even if she doesn't want to talk, she'd call eventually and let me know.

So I had to make do and I did my best to take care of myself during the next days, thinking that she was OK, therefore she would call me back later.

Tonite however, I am starting to feel this is not a good thing.

I called again twice at the end of the day. Twice I got her voice mail. In both calls I left messages asking her to call me back, and specifically saying that I am now having concerns about this whole silence thing.

Now there has been times where she has treated me disrespectfully around phone communication before. And in the last month, in particular in the last interactions we've had together before this silence started, she has been quite difficult to be around.

She has rage fits. Some of the things that she said while in a fit was that I was causing her too much stress. That my life was causing her too much stress. I figured out I could leave this alone for a while and use the silence to 'concentrate on my life'. So far I have chosen to not let her words affect me. She can be saying the darnest things when she is dysregulating. I've learned it's best to not take these words at face value.

To be truthful, I don't like this behavior at all. I find it rude and disrespectful. I find myself going back and forth between thinking that I can't continue to let her treat me like this. However, I'm not sure on how to put a boundary with this since she doesn't answer my calls.

Any suggestions on how to navigate this situation would be greatly appreciated.

[AskingWhy]

braveSun, I am sorry your spouse has been ignoring you.

BPDs have object constancy problems like a very small infant.  Out of sight is out of mind.

That you are away from your spouse means, to her, that you don't exist.  Object constancy in infants are easy to explain:  when an infant sees a toy, he will reach for it.  When you hide it behind you back, to the child, the object ceases to exists. 

Infants have only two emotions:  rage and contentment.  BPDs are the same way.  They are like infants in the bodies of adults.

Do you think the ignoring of your calls is because you are not present and therefore, in the mind of your spouse, do not exist?

Also the blaming is a cognitive distortion common to BPDs.

[formflier]

Dealing with silent treatment... .uggg.   

I'm so sorry you are having to work through this.in

Here is my guess... .the more you call, the longer it will last.  I suggest "taking her at her word" that you are stressing her out (in her mind).  Imagine each call is "stress".  So... .stop reaching over and filling up her "stress" cup... .she has told you it is "spilling over".

Please don't confuse this in any way with me saying this is OK. 


So... for anniversary.  I would do something low key, yet heartfelt.  Likely a simple card with a "miss you" sentiment.

If you really get from here to there with no contact (please stop calling and texting between now and then)... .I might even "lower" the sentiment to "hope you are well" or "wishing you the best".

Has there been "push/pull" behavior between you guys?

I'll try to read your backstory some.  In the meantime, let me challenge you.  Give me 2-3 sentences of why your wife is doing this (from her perspective).

Sorry man...    

FF

[Notwendy]

Hi braveSun-

I have had to deal with the silent treatment and it has felt terrible. It was something my BPD mother did as "punishment". Imagine a mother in her room with the door locked and her children crying outside the door and she doesn't respond for what feels like ages.

It was something my H did quite frequently and it had an effect on me. I could ask "what's wrong", plead, apologize, act affectionate, with no effect. He stopped when he stopped- whenever that was.

Eventually I read a book by Patricia Evans called Verbal Abuse which lists the various forms of verbal abuse. I recognized several of them that my H did, including the ST. I am aware of the object constancy consideration, but I was getting the ST with me right in front of him. If someone goes on vacation and forgets to call their spouse, that's object constancy to me. If someone refuses to speak to someone reaching out to them, by phone or in front of them- that isn't object constancy- it is a choice. It's been done in the car, on long trips, with me sitting right next to him.

Something happened that changed the effect of the ST. I had started 12 step co-dependency work and had a sponsor. I went on a school trip with H and one of my kids. Somewhere along the way, he started the ST. He would act normally in front of the child then act as if I was invisible when we were alone. It was a long trip back in the car with him ignoring me. I would stop at gas stations and call my sponsor from the ladies' room for support. Amazingly, she talked me through it. Once I realized I could get through it, it didn't bother me anymore.

Why did he do it? Because it works. It is punitive. Have you read about the Karpman Victim Triangle? During this time, he's in victim mode and is "paying me back" (persecutor). That puts me in victim mode, but if he's wrapped up in his own feeling of being wronged in some way , he isn't concerned with what I am feeling. He's not physically abusive and he knows better than to be outwardly calling me names but the ST is what worked for him. Also - when I was pleading, or calling, or trying to get him to talk to me, it was positive reinforcement. The best thing I could do was ignore the behavior and not reinforce it, and - just do something else. Since then, I have also not noticed it if it has happened. I think that has diminished it- as it doesn't get the same response from me, and also I have better boundaries.

Boundaries factor in here. In a dysfunctional relationship  it is likely both partners have poor personal boundaries. This is knowing basically where I stop and another person begins. Thoughts and feelings belong to one person. These boundaries get fuzzy in these relationships where there is emotional caretaking and "mind reading" and lack of personal responsibility for one's feelings. Have you heard a parent say to a wailing 4 year old "use your words". We teach children to communicate their feelings with ( appropriate ) words rather than wail, tantrum, or hit their sibling. Well, my H and your wife are big boys and girls and they can use their words if they need to discuss something. I can't read minds and neither can you.

It is likely the "mind reading" that got them into victim mode in the first place, and they are possibly way off when they do. Surely, we can do things that offend people and if we do, and they tell us, we can apologize, but also we can do or say something that is misinterpreted. Much of what was behind the ST was a misinterpretation of something I said or did that triggered my H. Yet, our triggers are our own business- we can not change what someone else thinks. It is frustrating- but it is also not my problem to clarify something unless I am told what it is.

It is good to not be reactive to the behavior. For the anniversary, I suggest you do whatever it is you normally do. It is up to her to accept it or not. If you do more- to try to get her out of ST- you are reacting to it. If you ignore it because of the ST, you are reacting to that too. Reacting puts us on the drama triangle. Overdoing it is Rescuing, not doing it is being Persecutor. Doing something because it is the anniversary is not being on the triangle. A card and flowers is a relatively small expenditure. If you buy a gift and she refuses it, it can be returned. If you make dinner reservations, they can be cancelled. Just do what you would do regardless. The rest is on her side to decide what to do.

This is why we don't JADE. That's participating on the drama triangle. My own observation of pwBPD is that they get into victim mode, possibly for a misinterpretation of something we said or did. Then they react, then we react and it's round and round. We can't control someone's thinking. If she's safe and enjoying her time, just let her be and do something you enjoy too.

[braveSun]

Wow! Thank you'all so much for your kind words and thoughtfulness... So much to think about!... .

Notwendy, I see this mind reading at play, yes. I am careful to not get into that. That's why I am focusing on my own tasks. Reading from what you are saying, it looks like I would do best to just go about this in 'normal' way, and to keep things open, without much expectations. I've kind of took that road when I decided to ignore the silence for the first week, than tried to reach out last Friday when I realized what was happening. Than I chose to not call again for another week. And last night I got a strong urge to connect, thinking about our anniversary closing in. So I did.

This morning I feel a bit more detached.

I have had to deal with the silent treatment and it has felt terrible. It was something my BPD mother did as "punishment". Imagine a mother in her room with the door locked and her children crying outside the door and she doesn't respond for what feels like ages.

Wow!... I can imagine yes ...  

It was something my H did quite frequently and it had an effect on me. I could ask "what's wrong", plead, apologize, act affectionate, with no effect. 

Yep!... I am seeing myself going through all of these different emotions, questionings, need to say something more, correct this, add that, prepare for the worst in fact... .   

It's where I started to think that this is not a good thing... It's hard to hold on to your own and not react. So far I have tried to stay calm and to say I'm concerned, but to let time slip through, and to use moderate language. In fact, not calling at all would be a form of under-reach because she has been having a medical emergency last month, and nobody knew. Except that I felt that something was wrong, and I called a tenant on the property to check on her.  He found her sick and incapacitated on the floor. As a result of my calls she got proper care and support. I really have to learn to trust my instinct, but not mind read. Two different things.

I am aware of the object constancy consideration, but I was getting the ST with me right in front of him. If someone goes on vacation and forgets to call their spouse, that's object constancy to me. If someone refuses to speak to someone reaching out to them, by phone or in front of them- that isn't object constancy- it is a choice. It's been done in the car, on long trips, with me sitting right next to him. 

  Exactly, yeah.  Horrible!

The Karpman Triangle seems to apply in my case. I feel a very strong pull to rush to her needs. She's passed retirement age and I see that she uses triangulation as a go to system to have her needs met. She's also a bit of old school regarding how to express her vulnerability, so I can have a bit of hesitation to fully embrace the concept, but it certainly can help with understanding better the dynamics.

It is likely the "mind reading" that got them into victim mode in the first place, and they are possibly way off when they do. Surely, we can do things that offend people and if we do, and they tell us, we can apologize, but also we can do or say something that is misinterpreted. Much of what was behind the ST was a misinterpretation of something I said or did that triggered my H. Yet, our triggers are our own business- we can not change what someone else thinks. It is frustrating- but it is also not my problem to clarify something unless I am told what it is. 

I think like you on this too. It's a fine line to navigate, though, because of the southern culture she grew up in. It's something I've been thinking about for some time. There seem to be a strong culture of care taking in the South. Especially as women are aging. It has it's good sides, mind you. But the mind reading can be a downside for sure. My spouse used to go visit a neighbor friend who was cooking for her. The friend's cooking wasn't too much to her taste, and she would go there to pick up the meals week after week and even try to eat them, but didn't like them, just because she wanted to be a good friend. I used to be baffled at that.
 

If you do more- to try to get her out of ST- you are reacting to it. If you ignore it because of the ST, you are reacting to that too. Reacting puts us on the drama triangle. Overdoing it is Rescuing, not doing it is being Persecutor. Doing something because it is the anniversary is not being on the triangle... .  Just do what you would do regardless. The rest is on her side to decide what to do.

True. I will leave it up to her and see what I'll do on the day of, night before, whatever...

[braveSun]

Here is my guess... .the more you call, the longer it will last. 

   Oh dear!... .

So... for anniversary.  I would do something low key, yet heartfelt.  Likely a simple card with a "miss you" sentiment.

If you really get from here to there with no contact (please stop calling and texting between now and then)... .I might even "lower" the sentiment to "hope you are well" or "wishing you the best".

  FF, you better be careful saying that. I'm a graphic designer and I make my own eCards!... .I could see this going in my mind, one side of the card is all nice and mellow, "Missing you", and than a nice blinking button on the bottom right that says "Or?... ."

Than if you pressed on the button you'd get the card flipping to the other side, and there would go "Hope you are well" "Wishing you the best"...
 

Has there been "push/pull" behavior between you guys?

I'll try to read your backstory some.  In the meantime, let me challenge you.  Give me 2-3 sentences of why your wife is doing this (from her perspective).

Sorry man...    

FF

Ok. Here is some things she said that are coming to mind.

‘I won’t talk to you until you get your life together.’
>> I’ve heard her using this language with/about her son, who has a drinking problem.

‘I’m not good with emotions.’
>> specifically crying in front of me when she feels sad

Last time I was visiting her, she invited me to come with her to a show she was participating in. Once I was there at some point, she started on my life making her sad and she couldn’t sleep because of that. Said that she feels it’s my fault that she declined to go to the show, because my life is stressing her too much and she couldn’t sleep.

Looks like enmeshment to me. But how to navigate conversations like this without invalidating? I tend to ignore the blaming on my life, but I have a harder time with her expressing that she needs me away from her because she is having a hard time with being vulnerable around me.

You got it right, though. I like the filled cup analogy. Thank you.

[braveSun]

BPDs have object constancy problems like a very small infant.  Out of sight is out of mind.

... Do you think the ignoring of your calls is because you are not present and therefore, in the mind of your spouse, do not exist?

  AskingWhy

Thank you for stopping by. Object consistency could be at play, yes.  I’ve been thinking about the emotional range myself. Rage and contentment sticks out.  But there are other emotions too.

I don’t quite know what to think about it. I see her having a strong need to be soothed by another person. When it’s not me, than it has to be one of her friends.  So there is a pattern of triangulation. This is something new to me since I came down here and we got married.

One of them is a long time friend of hers who lives with her part time. That friend has multiple addictions and serious health issues herself. She also has a bit of bullish ways. She has been wonderful in the past for my spouse, er she would take care of my spouse’s property, dogs, cats, while we were traveling. And, she was there with her when I could not be with her myself in difficult times. But there has been drug abuse issues and boundary issues.

Last year, she’s been trying to interfere in our private conversations while she was on the property.

So when my spouse talks with her, things between my spouse and me kind of change register. It’s like a switch being flipped.

That’s when I get the blame and the fits.

About the ignoring question. That’s an interesting question. I had not thought about it that way.

Backstory.
At some point last year my spouse was using drugs (marijuana) in a way that gave me concerns. She has a medical use prescription. But there were issues with impaired judgements, paranoid thinking, even physical balance issues on a couple of occasions. The friend in question started to visit with her regularly, say every week. Until she found a PT job nearby and decided to move on the property with us. That didn’t go well between my spouse and I. I was not consulted.

I had expressed, however, the desire to go to the city for better job opportunities. In the end, we took an apartment together in the city and I became the main occupant, while my spouse prefers to stay home. The preferred presence of the friend on the property versus me I understand has something to do with the drug usage. They are both smoking buddies. I don't smoke.

Since than we have fallen into regular reduced contact periods every week, mainly following a schedule for when her friend would be present at her house.

I’ve chosen to let that go and to concentrate on my job searches in the city. But now the friend has a loved one undergoing serious surgery, and is not at her house as much. I see it as a stressor for my spouse.

I tried to be more present to her and let her know that I can come over to her house more often if she is wanting me to. I tried to stay low key about it, and to let thing be a bit. To see what happens. When 2 weeks ago she’s invited me over for the show, I thought this was maybe a good opening to check more on this.

The last fit started right after a phone call from that friend.

[formflier]

 
‘I won’t talk to you until you get your life together.’
>> I’ve heard her using this language with/about her son, who has a drinking problem.

‘I’m not good with emotions.’
>> specifically crying in front of me when she feels sad

Last time I was visiting her, she invited me to come with her to a show she was participating in. Once I was there at some point, she started on my life making her sad and she couldn’t sleep because of that. Said that she feels it’s my fault that she declined to go to the show, because my life is stressing her too much and she couldn’t sleep.
 

Hmmm... .this is a bit different than I had assumed.  I need to re-calibrate a bit.

Am I correct that she is in her 60s (and therefore... .has had lots of life experiences... that are good and bad.?

OK... .we all need to make assumptions to have some initial "point of view" to help the world make sense.  The trick is to "stay flexible", especially when trying to "walk a mile in someone else's shoes".

Please don't for a minute "hear" that I'm excusing ST.  Please do "hear" that the silent treatment isn't about you, but it does affect you.     

There is no telling when ST will end... or when the next one will start.  That part you can't  control and shouldn't try to control.

You can control what you say and do in whatever brief period she chooses to invite you into her world.

Please make a choice to listen and validate... most likely with validating questions.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=273415.0

I would encourage you to read the post and perhaps the book.  Understand validation isn't about agreeing... it's more of a "I see you"... "i hear you".

Please... .especially when she says "your life stresses her out"... .that's going to be hard to not "argue" with... .or suggest that she shouldn't be so "enmeshed".  Can we leave all of that for later?  Can you focus on listening and understanding?

In your next post can you expand on what she is saying?  What have you said to her in return?

What exactly is it that is stressing her out?

FF

[braveSun]

Please... .especially when she says "your life stresses her out"... .that's going to be hard to not "argue" with... .or suggest that she shouldn't be so "enmeshed".  Can we leave all of that for later?  Can you focus on listening and understanding?

In your next post can you expand on what she is saying?  What have you said to her in return?

Didn't argue that, no. Didn't talk about any of that at all. I just got silent. I felt very quiet. I remember she said that she was disappointed in me. I listened. The exact language, I can't. It's sort of too much. (She had not slept well the night, and she was grumpy, morning conversation around 8 am.) I asked her if she wanted to eat breakfast. Had brought little croissants. She said yes. I warmed it up, served it. Sat at the kitchen table with her. She ate, and proceeded to talk about my life, she's disappointed in me that I don't have a job yet, something I had not done right in the project I had done for her (it was her mistake btw... ), the usual Brave's costing her too much money, is not performing good enough.

I can't remember the exact words, but that's the overall message. It's a regular thing, goes on every month once/month. I've had a few of those 'discussions' with her now, and have made a point to not promise what I have no control over, but did share some details about my progress. It has not worked well on the long run because if some details may have helped her understand better what I am dealing with on the short term, she will bring them back on later with a new level of critique, usually BW thinking in the mix, some mis-interpretations, some unfounded accusations (paranoid thinking) and it's too much for me. I have had better success in bringing in the big picture and sharing small victories when they happen, and reassuring her that I am on it, and that I am doing my best. Talking about the value of patience and persistence in this, that it takes a bit of time, it will work out in the end. That has helped too one time, maybe to just bring up the values between each other, but these things can't be repeated too many times. It's a long process, there are many steps, I'll take a while. That's all I can do.

I'm at that point I can't be receptive and discuss how we're going to do this or that about it. I have my own plan, one foot in front of the other, and if I give her details, than something about the details I share is not good enough. I just tune out when she gets going. It usually boils down to money. It costs her more than she expected. She is supporting me until I get a job. And... .I am not necessarily happy that it takes me that long either.  So it's a sensitive point. I told her that I was not going to discuss this with her that morning, especially since she had a bad night, and that I was letting her know good news as soon as I know myself.

Than she said she wanted to drive me back to the city. So there I asked her if she was sure she wanted that, because I had come for the show to go with her at the opening that evening. I thought she might feel differently if she did take a nap instead, and we could see how it would be for her than. I offered her even to stay away downstairs for the day, until it was time to go the show. She just didn't want to. Didn't see how she could sleep in daytime (which is true for her, in general she doesn't sleep in daytime). 

So I told her that if she wanted to do that, than that was ok, but I needed time to gather my things. She accepted that and got quiet. I went about to gather my things. I was feeling sad, but I chose to not hurry up and paced myself doing what I had to do. Than she came downstairs in the room I was in and was agitated. She started to press on, complaining that I was not ready yet. There I felt a bit tight, but I didn't yell at her, just told her calmly that if she was going to press on like that, I could not be in the car with her, she had to calm down first. We have a rule for no heavy discussions in the car while driving. I was also not sure this was a good idea since the drive would most likely be tiresome for her, considering she had not slept the night well. She sat in a chair and waited quietly.

We got all things ready to go I loaded my things in the car and we went. Drive went nicely. She offered me to drive, I asked her if she felt like not driving, considering her tiredness, she said no, she'd rather drive. That it makes her feel better. That was it. We got to the city, we were hungry, so we stopped at a small taco place and had a bite. She said she liked the taco, was pleased with the price. Dropped me at the apartment, called her grandson and arranged to pick him up, drove back to her house.

Later I called her back to check that her drive back home was good and all was fine. Than later in the afternoon she called me back to tell me that she was feeling much better, she had taken a nap, was not going to the show, was now visiting with her grandson, everything was ok.

We communicated again the next day, chatted as usual on the phone. Than she didn't call back again.

[braveSun]

Understand validation isn't about agreeing... it's more of a "I see you"... "i hear you".

I certainly did have more validating conversations, where I had prepared myself and was choosing the timing of the conversation. These times were more productive for sure.

It's the rants, they're coming on and on, and I can't just validate every time they come. I have to steer the topic to better times, when she is rested, not hungry, etc... , and I am well prepared.

In one particularly productive conversation I did specifically address her feelings. I told her that I did hear her, that finding suitable work was taking more time than she expected, and that it might feel like her supporting me was eating on a lot of her disposable income. I told her that I knew how that feels, to live frugally and to postpone month to month certain small luxuries, and that with the apartment expenses we could not travel together like we used to. I did try to bring in the big picture. To explore with her some things we could do to enjoy ourselves without taking big trips. I know it gets long when all you do is fork money over and wait and nothing exciting happen. It's like that looking for work though. I also could share with her that me too, I felt it was taking a long time, and I had felt restricted for a long time in my spending. Living thrifty. It's not always fun. I mean it's been a while now that I have left my country and have been out of work. (That too scares me a little, but I didn't share that part.) She did open up there. She's been very warm about it than.

She's not used to that because she never had to work herself. The jobs she's held were only brief periods of her life. Most of her money making experience has been in managing real estate, not in living pay cheque to pay cheque, not going through the motions of the fluctuating job market. 

She doesn't have any other background reference for this other than what she hears from others, and sometimes she will bring in a suggestion or a critique that it not a good fit for my situation, but she doesn't hear me at all. She'll push the idea unto me and gets upset I don't follow up on it. Like as if I was deficient in some way.

I haven't been able to bring up the subject of her son and grandson, who have been both dealing with substance abuse. Because this is too sensitive a subject between us. There's a lot to unpack with this.

I could, bring up the subject of her discomfort regarding her friends and extended family, whom she usually help out from time to time. She told me something about that recently. And I did hear her. I brought up the fact that they know and expect that she will be supporting me now in my first years in the country, and that when I get settled, she will be able to share away to her heart's content. Only her, did she feel bad about not being able to help other people out as she was used to. I don't thing anybody would criticize her or our marriage for that.

I did ask her if she would feel better if I went ahead and take a survival part time job., which is quicker to get if we really needed to. She said no. She prefers that I pursue a job in my field. This is rather a tight point at my age. I'm in my late 50s, going on to my 60s soon.

I prefer to aim as high as I can now. And to keep my feet on the ground.

All in all I think that with addressing the feelings we did, I'd say both with her efforts and mine, succeed to hear each other out a bit and it did create some sort of opening. But she forgets all about that. There are ups and downs, and the cycles are relentless.

So yes, in a way I do see that it's better for us to be separate while I am still not settled.
It's less stress that way. But no ST no... Not my thing.

[formflier]

Hmmm... .she has an interesting... almost passive way of conflict or pushing you away.

Before I share details of why I think that way... .can you pause and consider if I'm on the right track (I may not be).

In other words... I don't see "get out of my face... I hate you... you are worthless... no spine... no (fill in blank)... .(again... we've heard those stories on here... .right?)

There is a sad... .almost "defeated" quality to it.  That being said... .it's tempting to want to "fix" things that appear easy... or to "talk her out of it" (I saw a LOT of that in your story)... . I'm positive that's not helpful... .positive.  

Can you read the story and find the times that you tried to "correct" or "fix" or "suggest"... what if you listened and asked validating questions instead.  (I'm not suggesting this is easy... given that she is suggesting you are a disappointment... failure... not fast enough... .not (fill in the blank) enough.

I hope you can understand it's not about you... .she is likely molding her life story onto you... and inadvertently making things worse.

Also... for next time. I'm positive that letting her take you back to the city was bad.  Or at least she took it that way and would likely take it that way again.

Broadly speaking... .much better for you to "listen" and "give it some thought"... .and then stick to your plans.  Perhaps even "flip" it on her.  That the city looks attractive but you have plans here... .and you hope she will continue those plans (if she goes to the city... don't stop her).  But YOU keep going with the plans... let her leave... .let her take the action to leave.

Again... .the way she is presenting is a bit uncommon.  If you think I'm going down the wrong road or missing something... .point that out.

FF

[formflier]

She's not used to that because she never had to work herself. The jobs she's held were only brief periods of her life. Most of her money making experience has been in managing real estate, not in living pay cheque to pay cheque, not going through the motions of the fluctuating job market.  

 
I did ask her if she would feel better if I went ahead and take a survival part time job., which is quicker to get if we really needed to. She said no. She prefers that I pursue a job in my field. This is rather a tight point at my age. I'm in my late 50s, going on to my 60s soon.
 

OK... very important to keep asking questions.

Can you share what field you are looking for a job in?  What would a "survival job" look like?

How many hours per week is job search taking?  

So... back to her.  If she didn't have to work for money... yet managed real estate... .is she independently wealthy?  I suspect you said something here you didn't mean.

Managing real estate is usually pretty hard work... .although lots of people define that differently.  Note:  I have a number of pieces of real estate that I own and manage myself... I've been in the industry as a "side business" for a long time.  So... I really get it that "managing" to one person is totally different to someone else.

Anyway... .looking forward to understanding more.

FF

[braveSun]

FF I meant that she didn't have to secure income through employment. She gets income from the real estate she owns. That would qualify her as independently wealthy, yes.  I didn't mean she didn't work. I know some of the tasks she had to face at times were monumental. Especially after the storm. Now things are quieter. She's more or less in retirement mode.

My Master's is in Visual Arts. I am a graphic designer.  Currently working on developing products I can sell online to start create a bit of residual income. Pre-business research and development. Something I have been thinkering with for her while. Did some market research, but not yet ready for a bona fide business plan. More like testing a few kits to see if it takes, than will decide how much more energy I'm willing to put into it. That takes a bit of my time in spurts, but it is not a full time activity.

Finding a real career job for me requires a lot of ground work. Like rebuild my portfolio to meet the type of work I want to work in. There is a lot of research involved, some software learning, some catching up with some new technology. Some companies/positions I have been interested in have a tie to my research project mentioned above. 

Job search is a full time activity. Meaning  40-50 hours/week.

Survival jobs are like working as an admin at minimum wage. Or in retail.

[braveSun]

Hmmm... .she has an interesting... almost passive way of conflict or pushing you away.

Before I share details of why I think that way... .can you pause and consider if I'm on the right track (I may not be).

In other words... I don't see "get out of my face... I hate you... you are worthless...

Well, there has been some of that in the past year. At first I have been a bit confrontational about the disrespect. She in turn, told me to get out of her house a few times. I had to leave the house because it was affecting me too much. Left for about a month. Now things are a bit more subdued.

I think she talks to another friend who is a couple's therapist in another state. I am also more aware of my approach. Maybe me being on these boards and trying to apply communication tools has had an effect to sort of mellow the intensity of the language. Maybe she is learning somehow that her anger is not helping me get through faster.

But the memories of it, and the accumulation of it are between us. It is sad.

Broadly speaking... .much better for you to "listen" and "give it some thought"... .and then stick to your plans.  Perhaps even "flip" it on her.  That the city looks attractive but you have plans here... .and you hope she will continue those plans (if she goes to the city... don't stop her).  But YOU keep going with the plans... let her leave... .let her take the action to leave.

My first thoughts were to go back downstairs and to spend quiet time, waiting that she calms down. She can be quite driven. She wanted me to leave. I did feel a mix of tiredness and fear and sadness in me when she told me that. So I chose to go along with her to de-escalate the conflict.

But FF, can you expand on your point a little?

[Notwendy]

How would you feel about taking a temporary “survival” part time job? You asked her but more importantly it’s about you and what you want.

I realized the necessity to be home with my kids but there were aspects to working in addition to finances that I missed. It was a source of validation that I did not get at home. I helped offset the demoralizing issues at home that were affecting my self esteem. I loved that I had time with my kids. That was a good thing for them and the family but I was eager to get back to work once they got older.

It’s not easy getting back in the workforce at middle age. I also moved to an area where my H had opportunties but they were limited for me. I applied to all kinds of jobs - I was overqualified for many of them. It’s a hit to the ego to have employers ask “ why this job” but I felt I needed to work at a job.

My current job does use my background thankfully but it isn’t in the area of my primary studies exactly. It also doesn’t pay a lot but I enjoy it. I’m happier than I have been before I was working.

It’s gratifying to do a job well done - no matter what job. The socialization - contact with co- workers - is meaningful. It feels good to have a paycheck.

Both my H and I value the idea of a spouse being there for the kids. But I also think it’s important for the spouse at home to feel valued by their partner. But when there are relationship issues it’s easy to feel demoralized. If work is something that will help you with this - I think you can find value in a “survival “ job. Maybe not just money survival but self esteem.

[formflier]

I met a guy... .don't know him well, that is a 3d modeler for video games.  So they give him a rocket launcher and he puts it into a digital format by "modeling" it... so that it can be put "into" video games.

I was impressed... my boys that play video games we super impressed that they met a guy that creates that stuff.


My guess is that you are going to need a "contact" that will take your first work... and you may have to do lots of "side jobs" in the field to get "known".

How long have you done this kinda work?

FF

[formflier]

But FF, can you expand on your point a little?

OK... speaking broadly.

If you make plans to go to a show.  A pwBPD gets pissed and doesn't want you to go or do something else, it's usually very important that YOU follow through with the plans.  They don't control you... and you don't control them.

The purpose of making plans... is to do them and enjoy them. 

So... you invite her to dinner... .she does some BPDish thing... .you go enjoy dinner. 

Once she starts barking orders (it doesn't sound like she is rude... .or maybe I haven't understood properly) and you start "jumping"... .well... that's no good. 

You are a person... not an object that can be ordered around.

Do you get the "flavor" of my advice?

FF

[formflier]

Can you take a few min and do some he said she said that took you from being there... .to her sending you home?

FF

[braveSun]

OK... speaking broadly.

If you make plans to go to a show.  A pwBPD gets pissed and doesn't want you to go or do something else, it's usually very important that YOU follow through with the plans.  They don't control you... and you don't control them.

The purpose of making plans... is to do them and enjoy them. 

So... you invite her to dinner... .she does some BPDish thing... .you go enjoy dinner. 

Once she starts barking orders (it doesn't sound like she is rude... .or maybe I haven't understood properly) and you start "jumping"... .well... that's no good. 

You are a person... not an object that can be ordered around.

Do you get the "flavor" of my advice?

FF

Yes. I see that. I will keep that in my mind next time. Thing is, it was her show not mine. It was a gallery opening. Once she didn't want to go, small town stuff, bla bla bla, the outing was less interesting for me because of all of the small talks, etc. I kind would have liked to go than at a different time and enjoy the art better. Actually, think about it, I could have decided to stay around for the night and go to the gallery on the next day.

I like this.
Thanks.

[braveSun]

How would you feel about taking a temporary “survival” part time job? You asked her but more importantly it’s about you and what you want.

... .Maybe not just money survival but self esteem.

   Yes. Good point. It's been in the back of my mind for a while. There are contingencies about PT jobs, because of my back history. Basically, if I need to do it I will, and if I can find something that connects me to where I want to go, than that's even a good value for self esteem.

Long story short, I've had many survival jobs before because of traveling with my spouse and working on my art. Which was fine. But now it's a combination of my age and of the small career efforts I have accumulated over the years that would really get me out of the woods.

Also it's good that I look at it outside of my spouse's preferences and don't leave it into her hands, you're right. So far I have asked her thoughts about it,  more or less to enroll her into my team. And since there were issues about her sharing her money, there is something about security I need to look into for myself. Not sure I won't still need her financial support if I get a PT job, though. I have to really mean what I want.

Thank you Notewendy for checking.

 

[formflier]

Thing is, it was her show not mine. It was a gallery opening. Once she didn't want to go, small town stuff, bla bla bla, the outing was less interesting for me because of all of the small talks, etc. I

Her show... your plans. 

Unless the show was cancelled for her not being there... .I would have advised you to go.  Perhaps even especially because it was her show.

Seriously... .she "tested" you and you "ran away" from her stuff.  Remember she seemed odd after you agreed to go? 

Now... I don't suggest the thought that through... .but... I do suggest that your "leaving" "her stuff" affected her... and she didn't have the executive function to understand she "chased" you away.

FF

[braveSun]

  I met a guy... .don't know him well, that is a 3d modeler for video games.  So they give him a rocket launcher and he puts it into a digital format by "modeling" it... so that it can be put "into" video games.

I was impressed... my boys that play video games we super impressed that they met a guy that creates that stuff.

It can be a lot of fun, yes. Mostly it's a tedious and frustrating job. Computers can be frustrating. But it can be rewarding. I work in 2D, did a 3D course in college. It was in it's infancy. Now we have 3D printers at the public library. It's a bit of a novelty, but soon people will be able to make their own rocket replica, and than what stops you to put a small engine in it and fuss at it till you make it fly over the pound...


 

[braveSun]

Her show... your plans. 

Unless the show was cancelled for her not being there... .I would have advised you to go.  Perhaps even especially because it was her show.

Seriously... .she "tested" you and you "ran away" from her stuff.  Remember she seemed odd after you agreed to go? 

Now... I don't suggest the thought that through... .but... I do suggest that your "leaving" "her stuff" affected her... and she didn't have the executive function to understand she "chased" you away.

FF

I see. OK. Well, there was already a can of worms about her stuff. The story of her entrance in the show and what happened was not simple. There were boo boos along the way. Some of them I could not help with. She didn't have all the details thought through from the start, and that resulted in some things not being ready as promised.

Something similar on the small promo project I worked on for her. She had problems with her photos. I wanted to make new photos, she didn't want to. She elected to hand me some she had used for some other purpose but had strong limitations for Photoshop work. Long story short, she didn't agree with me from the start, than she liked my work better than hers, chose it, than wanted the photos to be better after the fact, but the printers' deadline was already over by than.

It was very hard for me there because I had to leave it to her to decide what she wanted, even though I knew she was going to change her mind, and I couldn't stop her from the consequences of her choices.

I did let it go and stayed out of it. Thus, after she received the prints, she told me that I had not done my job properly.

I don't know there FF what would have been the most validating way for me to work with her. Take over and she'd stop everything, or let her decide and present as much on the way as quick as I could, so she could see what I was meaning. Even though I had planned to let her check every steps of the work, with days in between for me to make corrections, I couldn't stop her from her own choices.

The other issues had to do with part of her own work she needed help with from another woman. There again, it was her way or nothing. The other woman was used to work collaboratively, so she took it in stride and stayed open. But she could not get one piece finished on time because that piece broke and she could not finish the redo. Had she be following the other woman's schedule, she may have had time to finish on time. But who knows?... It's really a live and learn experience.

For my spouse, though, I think all of this played a role in her not going to the show in the end.

A bit painful. But there will be other opportunities in the future. I wouldn't be surprised. Small town...

[braveSun]

So FF, if I understand you well, you mean that it's a better choice to stick to the plans when she attacks, so she doesn't end up controlling. Because she's pushing me away, but really she's pushing the uneasy stuff away. Am I getting this right?

I am curious to hear about how you would have gone on with the printed project and the photos. I first thought of coming back at her house with my equipment and not ask her for yes or not. I would have needed a ride with someone else and it was not convenient.

I even thought of bringing my equipment with me next time I go over, and take the photos I want and store them for a better day. My own contribution.

Not sure if you would see this as validating.

That's the part I have a difficulty to figure out.

In a way, I think she is looking for me to take initiatives. That adds a sense of security and direction. But she very much at same time fights it. 

[formflier]

Don't see it as an attack.  Look at it more of a "bid for control"... offer her "listening" and "thoughtfulness" (as long as she isn't calling you names and being abusive).

Then... .press on with your plans and let her control "next time". 

She had already kinda controlled already... although it sounded mutual.  You were going to the show.  Then she changed her mind... .and she can do that.  She can change her plans.  Just not yours.

Now... some wisdom will be in order.  Is there a legitimate change... or just to assert control? 

For now... error on the side of not letting her control.

FF

[braveSun]

  Can you take a few min and do some he said she said that took you from being there... .to her sending you home?

Went to bed together downstairs. She couldn't sleep, so she went upstairs to her room. In the morning when I got up and went upstairs I met her on her way out.

Brave: How are you? Did you sleep well?

Her: (The look). I haven't slept worth a hoot.

Brave: Oh!... Sorry you haven't slept good... I'm a bit off too, woke up many times.
           You're going out?

Her: Going to do my exercises

Brave: OK.  Did you have breakfast? Want to eat with me after?

Her: I ate already.

Brave: Oh... I'll eat some of those little croissants. Do you want some when you come back?

Her: I'm bringing you back to the city.

Brave: Ah?... How about we eat first? Shall I warm you up some?

Her: (Grumble)  I'll try them.

Than, the rest of the conversation once we had food went on:

Her: Brave should take a piece or two of the project with her when she leaves.

Brave: So you are sure? I mean I know you must not feel up to it right now, but if you take a nap, than maybe you'll feel more up to it later.

Her: Nope. I'm not going. I'm taking you to the city.

Brave: I know you usually don't like naps. Well. It's up to you. We could also just relax, me downstairs, and you here, and see how it goes at the end of the afternoon. We don't have to decide now.

Her: (louder) No, I don't want to go!

Brave: (silent) OK. Well... If you don't want to go than...

Her: I want you to go back to the city. I'm driving you .

Brave: Now?...

Her: Yes. I won't have energy later to go to all the way there. Brave, you have to do something about getting a job. How long is it going to take?

Brave:  Mrs Brave, we're not going to talk about this now.

Her: I'm tired of this, bla bla bla (there I tuned out).

Brave: It's not the best time to talk about this now that you are tired.

Her: Bla bla bla some more...

Brave:  Ok. If you really don't want to go to the show and want to go to the city, I don't mind. But why?... What happened that you couldn't sleep last night?

Her: I don't know. I keep being sad about you. About your life. I'm not good about talking about emotions. So I am taking you to the city now.

Brave: (sad) I'm sorry you had a bad night... .I'll get ready, but I need to pick up my things all over the house, so it'll take me a while.

Her: OK. (She stopped the rant)

I went to pick up my things downstairs and while I was packing, she came in again, agitated.

Her: You're not ready yet?

Brave: Now?...  

Her: I don't have all day to wait on you, bla bla bla...

Brave: OK. If you are going to talk to me like that I can't be in the car with you.
(We have a rule for no fights/ no controversial talks in the car while driving). I'm not sure you can do the drive now. If you calm down a bit, I might be able to see that you can.

Her: Sat in a chair and stopped ranting.

Brave: I'm almost done now. No worries.

And than we left for the car and the drive went well.

[formflier]

How typical is that of your "bad discussions" or "rants"?

I'm going to make an educated guess here.  You are a morning person and she is not.  (same in my r/s)

OK... .perhaps there is a quality here where she "feels pestered"... or perhaps "over-loved" is the better way to look at it.

So... one thing my P (psychologist) told me once... an observation about me.  She said I could be like a Saint Bernard puppy when I really want to love my wife.

Kinda cute, but lots of licking... .slobber and it's all good and fun for a short period of time... .but really... .who lets a Saint Bernard puppy lick them for hours... .after a while it gets to be a bit much.

I was just really wanting to express how I felt... .that I was excited to be with her... .it got to be too much... so "she would toss me in my kennel" (so to speak).

Anything ringing true here?

Knowing my wife is not a morning person... .I tend to stay away from "good morning"... (what's good about it?)  I'll generally say "hey... " or something like that.

On school mornings when she has to leave for work, we've started snuggling in bed (non-sexual) until she has to get up and "hustle" out the door.  No time to linger for anything.

I really don't like it... but it is very calming for her... .much less conflict.  (again... P idea)

I'll hush and wait for response.

FF

[braveSun]

How typical is that of your "bad discussions" or "rants"?

I'm going to make an educated guess here.  You are a morning person and she is not.  (same in my r/s)

OK... .perhaps there is a quality here where she "feels pestered"... or perhaps "over-loved" is the better way to look at it.

Pretty typical. There are variations in intensity. Usually tied into something I didn't do right, or on the theme of her disappointment with me. There has been false accusations and mind-reading. There has been proper discussions on plans we started in good will and which turned that way.

She's a morning person, and so I am. That would not be the influence.
Cuddling is definitely something that helps. On that we are both on the same page, but it doesn't happen enough, I think.

I'll give more attention to the over-love possibility.
Thanks for sharing this.

 

[formflier]

  On that we are both on the same page, but it doesn't happen enough, I think.

Why not? 

FF

[braveSun]

Well, FF, our anniversary has passed and I sent her a sweet card/invitation. Sort of of the missing you  kind. She didn't reply.   

Why not? 

FF

You were asking why our sweet times does not happen enough... My spouse has a way to respond to issues in a very different way than me, even though she does agree when I suggest that we should take opportunities to have sweet time together whenever we can. She has more internal conflict than I do.

I have done something nice for myself for our anniversary, alone. I have elected to let my good memories come forward and flow for me. There was some grieving, but I could feel my love. This is very precious to me. Feeling my feelings freely. I want to keep my good memories of her. I elected to not censure them because of the ST. They are a part of my life. A big chunk of my life. So I am not going to reject my good memories.

I think in light of all that I have learned lately, it's true that when going through a bit of distance, at least for me, the heart grows fonder. I can remember some of our good times. I'm grateful for that.