Clarity too Late: I'm a Fool, but is a Future possible for us?

[pearlsw]

Hi munkeynoodle,

Have you seen these resources?

How To Get a Loved One Into Therapy


Telling Someone You Think They Have BPD

If you get a chance to take a look let us know what you think!

I can understand why you would want her to see you in person, I would be careful though, if you do, on some kind of a hard sell (or even a soft sell) on how you want her to handle her life.

I hear ya, about seeing these various messages, that is why we don't advise on such matters. We can talk it over, but we are in no position to make these decisions for you or assume the risks. Others may have more sophisticated ideas, but I take them as options that may or may not fit as we are all in such different situations.

I don't know that chasing after my SO ever helped, but it may have, a bit. I felt an urge for him to see me so he could reconnect.  I felt if I could help calm him he'd be back, but I have lived through so many scenarios with him I can't even see them all clearly.

take care, pearl.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[livednlearned]

Three weeks is a long, long time when you are in emotional pain.

It is not long when you are idealizing a new partner. 

What would you want to say to her if you reached out?

[munkeynoodle]

I don't know what I would say.

I want to apologize for the person I became after she left. For saying no when all she wanted to do was come home. For the mean things I said.

I want to tell her that I am always there for her, that I support her, and she is not wrong for how she feels.

I want to remind her that I was always there, that I encouraged and supported her, that I held her, that I love and care for her, that I am the one who took the blades out of her hand and got her help, and that means I am her best friend.

I want to tell her that I do not need her to be happy, and I do not need her to be myself, and I do not need her to be whole.

I want to tell her that the family we made together is not waiting for her anymore, because we know she is not coming home.

I want to tell her I am alright with never seeing her again, and I wish her the best.

But I want to tell her how much I love her, and how I miss her every moment of every day, and how I will never stop waiting, and how she is my missing piece.

There are so many things I want to say, but I don't know what to say because I do not know what the best course of action is. I know what I want, and I know that what my heart and what my head wants are different, but I cannot rectify the two. I want to maximize the chance of us being us again, because that is what my heart desires, but I want to tell her I am done and walk away, because I know that is what I need.

I just want to look at my phone, see that blinking green light, and have it be a text from her again. It was always her. For two and a half years, it was always her, and now it never will be again.

I don't know how I would respond, or if I even could.

I just want her to try.

I want her to want to try.

[babyducks]

Hello munkeynoodle,

There is nothing certain in life.    There are no guarantees in life.    Other than death and taxes.   There are no guarantees or certainties in ~normal~ relationships.  (whatever they are)   

There are even less guarantees or certainties when you are part of a high conflict couple.   and I mean high conflict in the clinicial sense of the term.

On these forums I get mixed messages:

        When she splits, finds someone else and goes no-contact, you are done, and there is nothing you can do.

        Let her know you are fine with being finished and not having her in your life and continue no-contact, that is the only way
        to draw a BPD person back to you.

        Do not continue no-contact, because absence makes a BPD heart grow colder and you will continue to be devalued and
        fade away.

Understanding BPD can help explain some behaviors, not predict them.   Nobody here.   And I mean Nobody Here, can say with any certainty what your girlfriend may or won't do.    Human behavior is more complicated than that.

pwBPD share a collection of certain behavior characteristics or traits that predisposition them to act and react in certain ways.   within those traits and characteristics exists a huge range of human expression.   one size does not fit all.

besides which, I am going to suggest that from my view point, manipulating someone's mental illness by "Let her know you are fine with being finished and not having her in your life and continue no-contact, that is the only way to draw a BPD person back to you." is a pretty immature approach, using poor relationship skills.

understanding BPD and also understanding how mature adult reciprocal relationships work is not about 'fixing' the illness, or controlling anyone's behavior.   

my two cents

'ducks

[babyducks]

on re-reading your post I picked up on this;

My unrealistic hope is that she will exit this emotional fog she is in, either herself or as she continues therapy, and as that happens she will realize how the mistakes she made were hurtful to the family she made and herself,

my ex partner was diagnosed as Bipolar 1 comorbid with another illness on the B cluster, most likely BPD.   She was very reluctant to use the phrase BPD,  she didn't like the term or the negative stigma attached to it.   She was very compliant with medication,   very diligent in therapy,  when I met her she had been in therapy for 7 years and had made great progress.   during our time together her diagnosis changed as she no longer met the criteria for BPD.  she continued to struggle with mania, and could and did become psychotic.   

we broke up and got back together so many times I lost count.   at one point, we had an argument that degraded into violence.   it was my fault.   and my mistake.   I ended up with a broken hand which required surgery to repair.  we still got back together after that.  and the relationship was better after that.   we had a very good psychiatric support team.   She had a psychiatrist, psychologist and a mental health nurse.    I had a psychologist to help support me.

I would still be with her, if that was a reasonable option for us.    it doesn't happen to be.   I understand when you say

I want to maximize the chance of us being us again, because that is what my heart desires, but I want to tell her I am done and walk away, because I know that is what I need.

I still love her,   I still think of her fondly.  which is hard to reconcile with how much conflict the relationship held.    I know that my love for her was one of the best parts of me,   I also know that expressing it,   gets me into a world of hurt.

the last time we were together she had a bipolar manic episode and ended our relationship in pretty dramatic ways.    six months after that she re-appeared in my life via text asking how the gold fish were.    Yes.   Seriously.    A month after that she re-appeared asking to be friends because she missed me.   

that was my experience,... .and understanding BPD helped me understand my experience.    just as understanding bipolar helped me understand the mania.    it helps inform my decisions.   

'ducks

[munkeynoodle]

I do not want to be manipulative or controlling, I am just trying to find the best coarse of action given the advice and information I have found on the forum.

I have so many books now on BPD, how to live with and love someone with BPD, and how to improve myself that I am getting anxious deciding which to start next: I read "I Hate You, Don't Leave Me", "Stop Walking On Eggshells", am now in the midst of "I Am Not Sick, I Don't Need Help", and I have "This Is Not The End, Conversations on BPD", "BPD Demystified", "Mindfulness for BPD", ":)PD Cognitive Behavioral Therapy Self help Guide", "Beyond Borderline, true stories of recovery", "emotional Intelligence 2.0", "The High Conflict Couple", "The Art of Empathy", "A New Heart", and "CBT in 7 weeks", and a few more in my Amazon cart.

I am engrossed in the studies and videos of Dr. Alan Fruzzetti and Dr. Xavier Amador. I have looked into the 12 week Family Connections program. I have researched recovering relationships from infidelity and enjoy the talks by Esther Perel and am trying to get more resources from her. And I scour every other resource I can trying to understand the issues, both hers and mine, so in the -what seems like exceptionally unlikely or near impossible- event that she does come back I will be prepared.

I was not equipped in any way to be in a relationship with her, but I will be in a much better place if a "next time" happens.

I am trying to do whatever I can to ensure success, but I do not know if that means I should not speak to her, or if I should try, or if it is doomed and I simply need to give up.

But I am not one to give up. I never give up.

So I am improving myself and preparing for whatever relationship we or I might have next.

I just need guidance in deciding if I should continue non-contact.

I really want to see her, but I do not think she wants anything to do with me at all, but I fear that the less she sees me the easier it becomes for her not to see me, and easier I am to forget, and the less I become to her.

[livednlearned]

I just need guidance in deciding if I should continue non-contact.

Keeping in mind we know very little about your relationship dynamics and the other people involved in these circumstances... .I'll take a flying leap here  

I do not think she wants anything to do with me at all

This is your instinct -- it seems sound to me. She made a pretty alarming false allegation about you to her mom. It might pass, but for right now, it's become part of her relationship dynamic with this new guy (Karpman drama triangle = persecutor, victim, rescuer).

I fear that the less she sees me the easier it becomes for her not to see me

This is your feeling. This is about you.

She may not be in a place where she can consider your needs, not when she is in the idealization phase of a new relationship. That's a pretty tall order even for someone emotionally resilient.

You have a fear she will forget you, and that is not likely a top priority for her at the moment.

Being BPD, her needs will be front and center.

This isn't to say she won't ever change how she feels. Just that when the new relationship starts to spin out on its own, that's the time to let your presence be known. There are probably lots of ways to do this. For one example, maybe write her a letter -- take lots of time -- and give it to her mom. Tell her it's there if her daughter ever leaves the relationship, not when she's in it.

Meanwhile, keep learning and reading.

The book that helped me grow in my understanding of BPD is In Search of the Real Self by James Masterson. It's old school in many ways, but if you can set aside the tendency in the 70s to blame everything on the primary caregiver, the ways he describes the development of self is surprisingly enlightening, not least because the art of developing a real self is something we universally aspire to. I can read about the difference between false self and real self and see how it applies to me, and then see how the failure to successfully develop a real self is something that explains many confusing BPD behaviors, without making it seem like a dry clinical diagnosis.

Books that shine light on our selves while shining light on BPD are the best ones, imo.

That book doesn't have communication and relationship skills. For that, I like Loving Someone with BPD by Shari Manning, and Overcoming BPD by Valerie Porr. But those books might seduce you into rescue mode, believing that if you just say it the right way, your BPD loved one might get help and get better.

Resist that urge 

Best is if you focus on strengthening your skills, see a therapist to help you become healthy and strong again, and learn what it means to be emotionally resilient, beginning with radical acceptance that your BPD loved one may not change, and can still be loved.

[munkeynoodle]

So, a lot has happened in the past few days.

My dog ate some of my mothers medication on Tuesday, so I had to take him to the emergency vet. It was too late for them to pump his stomach, so they gave him activated charcoal and had him on observation for a while.

The issue was that my mother texted "her" and to tell her. So after a month of no-contact, and me finally accepted it on everyone's advice, she texts asking what happened to my dog and how he is. I told my mother that it is not alright to talk about me and my life with her.

I was angry to be put in that position: if I text her, I am giving up a piece of myself, but if I don't I remain the persecutor, only worse now.

I told her when she left me that my dog is part of my life, and she is leaving all of it. I told her that her boyfriend and I cannot co-exist in her life. And she walked away. And I hadn't heard from her in a month.

It took me several hours to make my decision, but I remind her of the consequences of her actions, and that he is my dog. I told her that she does not get to shatter my life and ask about her favorite pieces.

I know, not the best response, but I feel like I need to be true to myself and not allow her to have the parts of me she still wants. I have already given her enough, and my therapist says I cannot give her anymore, and my dog is a substantial part of me.

Of course, her response was to get comfort from her new boyfriend. So, she cannot know about my dog because she abandoned us for her new boyfriend, and her response to make things better is to go to her new boyfriend? Thing A caused B to happen, go to thing A to resolve B. How can she not see this logic? I know she cannot think beyond her emotions, but it is just so mindbogglingly insane. I cannot stand it. it hurts my heart, and it makes my head want to explode.

I spoke to her mother, and I feel like I owed it to her to let her know how my dog was -he made it through. I did not want to, because I know she would tell her daughter, but I felt that I needed to. She let me know that yes, she would let her daughter know, but she thought I should be the one to tell her, then at least she would remember that. So I sent her a curt text saying that he was alright.

And now I feel cheap.

I feel like I let go of one of the only things that is still mine, that's not hers, that I could control.

It's not fair.

My mother wanted to talk to her and get my apartment key back, so they were going to meet, but her mother came with her and kind of derailed the conversation, which was then reduced to "so what do you do?". I am sure she took her mother because she thought I would show up, but I do not know.

I am drafting a letter to her now to see if she would like to meet and talk about what happened. I want to apologize for the person I became when she left, explain myself, ask if she can explain any of herself, set expectations on what a future would look like for us as friends or anything else, or if we will ever see each other again.

I am hoping I can let go after that.

I feel much better right now. I feel better about myself and my progress, and I keep saying it, but I think I am finally accepting the fact that she is gone, and there is nothing I can do.

I am timid about this feeling, because I have felt it before, but never for as long.

[babyducks]

hi monkeynoodle,

I'm very sorry to hear about what happened to your dog.    I have two dogs and know how upsetting it is when they get sick.   I am glad to hear the dog made it.   

a couple of things I noticed.   first you mentioned it took a couple of hours to make your decision on if and what to reply to her text.   that's a good thing.    It shows you were mindful and not reactive.    I hope you gave yourself credit for making the best decision you could.

It took me several hours to make my decision, but I remind her of the consequences of her actions, and that he is my dog. I told her that she does not get to shatter my life and ask about her favorite pieces.

I know, not the best response, but I feel like I need to be true to myself and not allow her to have the parts of me she still wants. I have already given her enough, and my therapist says I cannot give her anymore, and my dog is a substantial part of me. one to tell her, then at least she would remember that.

I actually think that was a fine response for exactly the reason you mentioned.    You were true to yourself and your own emotions.     There is no perfect way to talk to or with a person with BPD.   There are ways to minimize conflict and chaos.   They have their place and their role.    There are also times when stating our own truth is the best way to go.   

That's an interesting comment from your therapist.   "that you cannot give her anymore"   what do you think that means?    and do I take it you have a new therapist?

'ducks

[munkeynoodle]

I gave her my heart, my soul, my time, my energy, my patience, my security, my health, my mind. I gave her everything, and she shattered it all to pieces. But what's left is mine, and I am holding onto it with all the strength I have left. And that includes my dog.

I started with a new therapist last week, and it is going quite well.

On a side note, and on a not-so-healthy-or-wise impulse, I adopted another puppy, and paid way too much for her.

Perhaps she will help fill that gaping hole she left our family with, or at least distract me while I fill it myself.

I closed on my house last week, and I should be getting a promotion and raise at work in August, and I am about to buy plane tickets for my nieces to come see me this October from Oregon. I have a lot to look forward to, and I am hopeful for myself.

I wrote her a note, telling her how her family is -me, the dog, the cat, and my mother- and asking her if she would like to talk one last time to get an understanding of each other and what happened, and to discuss what our future relationship will look like, if we will ever see each other again and what that would be.

And I am ready for that to be the end of it. One last conversation, one last visit, one last hug, and move on for me.

I am still shaken by thoughts of her, and sadness, and pain, and anger, but I hope that finally letting her go and committing to such will help me move forward.

I am too great for this. I always have been.

[livednlearned]

Hi munkeynoodle,

I thought I responded to your thread but realized when I came to check and see how you were doing that I hadn't left a reply. Sorry about that. I hope you're doing ok and enjoying the heck out of your new puppy 

I wrote her a note, telling her how her family is -me, the dog, the cat, and my mother- and asking her if she would like to talk one last time to get an understanding of each other and what happened, and to discuss what our future relationship will look like, if we will ever see each other again and what that would be.

You have handled all of this with so much dignity. I really admire you for the way you're working through the intense pain and grief that can go with BPD break-ups.

Did you hear back from her?

How are you settling into your new home?

[childhoodgone]

I am here also and I hope you are better munkeynoodle

[munkeynoodle]

Thank you all for your concern and support.

I bought a duplex which has tenants through September, so I cannot move in until then. But, the rent they pay covers both my new mortgage and the rent I pay for my apartment, so I am not too concerned about such, except that it would be great to have the space and lawn with two dogs.

I have not heard back from her. My mother gave her the note on Sunday, and I texted her asking if she read it, what she thought, and if she would be willing to speak to me again, but she was already planning on traveling to see her new boyfriend, and I think she has been with him since Tuesday, so naturally she has not thought of me -or anything else. I am also sure that she will discuss such with her boyfriend for his "guidance" so it seems unlikely that she will be willing to see me.

But I spoke to her mother during one of my panic attacks, and she said she would discuss it with her. I told her to wait until a day or two after she returns from her trip with her boyfriend or she will be completely unperceptive, so perchance there is a chance.

I have decided that if I see her it will be the last time that I see her. I want to get as many answers as I can, say as much as I can, and say goodbye in the best way that I can. I need to let her know that what she did is not alright, and what she continues to do is not alright, and I will not be waiting or receptive to any kind of relationship with her if she ever comes to her senses. Her and her boyfriend held hands and kicked me into hell, and are now on vacation together, happy, while I try to claw my way out of this furnace that is consuming me and made me question who I am and my self worth. I will not be waiting for her vacation to end. It's not fair, and I have my limits.

It will be goodbye for good, not goodbye for now.

I deserve better, and I am better this.

I am better than her.

I am obsessed with my final conversation with her, and how badly I need and want it. I keep repeating it over and over in my head, and writing everything down, and repeating it, and writing it. I can't focus on anything else, but it is better than obsessing over what she has done and what she is doing and why. I am trying to accept that she might not talk to me again, that I might not have that conversation I need so badly. I will get there.

I am trying to focus on me. I am in contact with my therapist daily, I am taking my medications, I have the new puppy who is taking a lot of effort and time, I have been diligent with the gym and improving my body and health, and I just signed up for Kendo classes, and inquired about fencing training -both of which I have always wanted to do- which will fill my weekends when I am not working. When I am able to focus better mentally I plan on working through my Japanese program as well (nihongo ga sukoshi wakarimasu).

It may be too much, but I need too much right now. I need me right now.

And the puppies.