Struggling to let the comment go

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

I don't usually fixate on an exchange the way I have lately about this particular statement from my stbx, but it's really running on loop in my head and I just can't seem to shake it lately.

During one of our very tense discussions in the week or so after I told her I needed to separate, I made reference to my anxiety.  The look she gave me was one of such contempt, and her dismissive snort of "Your anxiety" just really cut me deeper than I realized at the time.

For context, before about 8-9 months ago, I never experienced anxiety.  Or, more accurately, I never had the kind of ongoing and pervasive anxiety that I have been experiencing lately with the situation of finally starting to grasp the nature of my relationship, discovering the very real damage it has been causing me, and struggling through all the painful steps of getting myself out of there.  I was always a very laid-back, roll-with-the-punches, we can figure it out kind of person.

My stbx on the other hand has struggled with anxiety and depression for basically her entire life, with significant bouts of it throughout our relationship.

Knowing what I do now about BPD, I'm not going to bother asking how she can dismiss the reality of the anxiety I have been having.  I'm not going to question how she could have absolutely no empathy for what I have been feeling given her own ongoing experience.  And I also know it's useless to wish she would somehow grasp that she did this to me.

Maybe the futility of the above is what's leaving me so lost right now.  That single, two-word statement--and especially how it was delivered--embodies for me the reality that she never really cared about me or my needs.  Maybe it was just her pain at the time of just starting to deal with the reality of us separating, but it just doesn't feel that way.  It feels like I was finally seeing her true colors. 

It keeps dragging me back to the realization that I never had the kind of love and acceptance that I thought I had.  Maybe I did have it on some level and it died a long time ago, but I really don't think so.   Worst of all, coming from someone who supposedly loved me the way she claimed she did, it leaves me feeling convinced that I'll never find someone who really loves me for me, for who I really am rather than what she expects to change me into and/or what I can do for her.

mw

[mama-wolf]

I don't usually fixate on an exchange the way I have lately about this particular statement from my stbx, but it's really running on loop in my head and I just can't seem to shake it lately.

During one of our very tense discussions in the week or so after I told her I needed to separate, I made reference to my anxiety.  The look she gave me was one of such contempt, and her dismissive snort of "Your anxiety" just really cut me deeper than I realized at the time.

For context, before about 8-9 months ago, I never experienced anxiety.  Or, more accurately, I never had the kind of ongoing and pervasive anxiety that I have been experiencing lately with the situation of finally starting to grasp the nature of my relationship, discovering the very real damage it has been causing me, and struggling through all the painful steps of getting myself out of there.  I was always a very laid-back, roll-with-the-punches, we can figure it out kind of person.

My stbx on the other hand has struggled with anxiety and depression for basically her entire life, with significant bouts of it throughout our relationship.

Knowing what I do now about BPD, I'm not going to bother asking how she can dismiss the reality of the anxiety I have been having.  I'm not going to question how she could have absolutely no empathy for what I have been feeling given her own ongoing experience.  And I also know it's useless to wish she would somehow grasp that she did this to me.

Maybe the futility of the above is what's leaving me so lost right now.  That single, two-word statement--and especially how it was delivered--embodies for me the reality that she never really cared about me or my needs.  Maybe it was just her pain at the time of just starting to deal with the reality of us separating, but it just doesn't feel that way.  It feels like I was finally seeing her true colors. 

It keeps dragging me back to the realization that I never had the kind of love and acceptance that I thought I had.  Maybe I did have it on some level and it died a long time ago, but I really don't think so.   Worst of all, coming from someone who supposedly loved me the way she claimed she did, it leaves me feeling convinced that I'll never find someone who really loves me for me, for who I really am rather than what she expects to change me into and/or what I can do for her.

mw

[once removed]

when someone says something to me that gets under my skin, it always helps me to open up a document or grab some paper and let my response fly. uncensored, sometimes deliberately over the top.

do you think that might help?

[mama-wolf]

Hi once removed,

Thank you for the suggestion!  I have toyed with the idea of writing out something to my stbx (addressed directly to her, but not to send... .just to get it out).  I have just had so much trouble knowing where to even begin, but that was in the context of writing "to her" about the whole relationship.  Maybe just starting with this particular encounter would be more manageable.

It's also generally hard for me to think of saying the things that roll around in my mind--even if it's just to write it out.  I just don't "talk" that way to other people, so it just feels really foreign to me.  But my T did encourage me to try writing out my feelings so that it gets them out of my head, and according to her will make them feel less intense when they surface again.  I will give it a try... .

mw

[Mutt]

H mama-wolf,

I'm not going to question how she could have absolutely no empathy for what I have been feeling given her own ongoing experience

I would  feel hurt too if someone close that shared a similar experience couldn't connect with me. The reason why she said that the way that she did is because the statement is a reflection on how her behaviour hurts others, it triggered shame. She creates anxiety in others.

[braveSun]

mama-wolf, my heart goes out to you!    

I have similar experience with my spouse. She attacks when she hears me mention something about the hurt that happened to me. Naturally parts of my brain does detect this as there might be some form of projection of her experiences. Nevertheless, it always is very rough for me to hear these words. Even after months have passed, they are still roaming around. Please know that what she said she said it in the heat of the moment. Your understanding of her BPD levels of anxiety may be fair appraisal vs your situation. 

That said, for yourself, there is hope. I believe writing about it did help me take the bite out of it. I also did record my thoughts and feeling when that rolling would wake me up in the night. A simple device on my bedside table.

Thank you for the suggestion!  I have toyed with the idea of writing out something to my stbx (addressed directly to her, but not to send... .just to get it out).  I have just had so much trouble knowing where to even begin, but that was in the context of writing "to her" about the whole relationship.  Maybe just starting with this particular encounter would be more manageable.

  Breaking it down into smaller chunks sounds like a good idea.


May I ask how is your self-care going these days?

[mama-wolf]

the statement is a reflection on how her behaviour hurts others, it triggered shame.

Thank you for that clarification, Mutt... .it does help to understand her reaction a bit more.  I just don't know what I should have done differently when trying to express to her the difficulty I was having with our situation.  I wasn't trying to make her feel shame.  I was trying to stand up for my boundary of not engaging in further argument at the time by clearly naming the impact it was having on me.  This was weeks ago, of course, and I don't think a similar situation will have a chance to happen anymore now that we're separated.

mama-wolf, my heart goes out to you!    

I have similar experience with my spouse. She attacks when she hears me mention something about the hurt that happened to me.

May I ask how is your self-care going these days?

Thank you so much braveSun.  On the surface, I'd say self-care at the moment feels a little stagnant, but I think that's because I mostly think of physical activity when I think of self-care.  My kids have been away all week, and although I thought I might get some good exercise in each day, I haven't managed to do so once.  I did go on a trip this past weekend that had its own impacts (posted in another thread).  I spent some time with family or a friend on each of Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday evenings, and I allowed myself to have quiet mornings each morning as I got ready for work.

The biggest thing that has taken up most spare time throughout this week has been pulling together all of the things that my stbx will be moving out of the house next Friday.  I guess this could be considered a form of self-care as well.  My primary hope is that it will speed up the packing/moving process, but it has also allowed me to start exercising some control over my environment.  I have started organizing my things and my space, and started planning for some changes that will make it feel even more like "mine" instead of "ours." 

We have arranged for her to come do some packing on Sunday while I'm out of the house with the kids, but I didn't want to leave it for her to just go through the entire house.  I have collected the items that she specified in our separation agreement and consolidated them in a few key places in the house along with furniture that we agreed she would take.  I have also pulled together a lot of things she didn't list, but things that were hers before we got together, or things that I just don't want.

So all of the above has kept me fairly busy and kept me from sitting around and ruminating for the most part.  But I also recognize that it has kept me distracted from my emotions and that I'm still avoiding a lot of processing that needs to happen.

mw

[WindofChange]

Hi Mama-wolf,
I'm sure it was hurtful to for her to be so dismissive of your feelings. Sounds like she has been that way for a long time, maybe a part of why you have said in another thread you have trouble expressing your feelings. Why put it out there just to be ridiculed or shot down? I feel for you!
I know for me, having my ex dismiss my feelings or act as if anything I experienced was minor in comparison to his far greater issues, made me feel as if I didn't matter. It effing hurt. I, too, started experiencing intense anxiety about a year ago when our issues got much worse. At its worst point, I was actually having facial tics (first time in my life) and he made fun of me! Talk about insensitive. I didn't want to take medication for it, so I started running out of desperation (a hard thing for me to do at my age). But it worked. I got it under control and I lost most of the 20 extra pounds that had crept on.
It sounds like you're still going through the process of completing the separation and reclaiming your own space. That's great that you're working on getting her things packed and ready to be moved out, and working on organizing your own space. Even if you didn't get any exercising done this past week, you're accomplishing a lot. Spending time with family and friends is hopefully doing you good as well. I journal and keep it in my email. I think in the beginning it was awkward for me, and sometimes it's really random, like a stream of consciousness kind of thing. But no one else is going to see it, so it doesn't matter. It does help to write it out and ramble about it on paper or screen so you can get it out of your head for a while and let your mind rest! 
Our BPD exes can say really hurtful things because of their inability to empathize. And even if we know logically why they say it, it still hurts not to be acknowledged and to receive blame instead of empathy. Hopefully it helps a bit to know you're not alone in feeling this way. Hang in there!

[braveSun]

I agree with WindofChange, it's a lot of work... Cleaning and re-organizing the house does feel good to me as well. I can relate to that. Making my space mine. Good job with that mama-wolf!   Sounds like you're rockin' in there! 



Must be tiring...

  I also recognize that it has kept me distracted from my emotions and that I'm still avoiding a lot of processing that needs to happen.

  Sometimes I noticed I need just to move about. The physical part of it feels best. Some other times I need to talk with other people, some other times it's eating something I enjoy that does it best. Some times I feel I need to just rest, hang out for a few moments...

I recognize time might be constrained for you. What would be the next thing you feel you would need, say to bring comfort to yourself a little bit more?

[Cromwell]

I use a form of self hypnosis to alter the image, I remember my exs contorted face and I just replay her mouthing off but with the sound muted. Turn them into a form of cartoon character and diminish the emotional power of their snidey comments.

[WindofChange]

Cromwell, not sure if it was you or someone else on another thread that said they pictured the hateful words coming out of a 5 year old's mouth. That takes some of the power of the hurt away. Many pwBPD are emotionally like young children (so I've read), so it's helpful in understanding them. We don't expect a 5 year old to act with emotional maturity, so maybe we shouldn't expect it with a borderline. That doesn't let them off the hook, since they should be actively seeking therapy and trying to get better, but it's helpful to the nons for looking at things more objectively and getting past the deep hurt their words and actions cause. Mama-wolf, what do you think of that idea? Would it help you, do you think?

[Mutt]

Thank you for that clarification, Mutt... .it does help to understand her reaction a bit more.  I just don't know what I should have done differently when trying to express to her the difficulty I was having with our situation.  I wasn't trying to make her feel shame.  I was trying to stand up for my boundary of not engaging in further argument at the time by clearly naming the impact it was having on me.  This was weeks ago, of course, and I don't think a similar situation will have a chance to happen anymore now that we're separated.

It helps to understand the behaviour so that we can heal by understanding it then we can depersonalize the behaviour and become indifferent to it, you neither like it or hate it. You're separated now you're not responsible for her anymore.

[mama-wolf]

Our BPD exes can say really hurtful things because of their inability to empathize. And even if we know logically why they say it, it still hurts not to be acknowledged and to receive blame instead of empathy.

Thanks so much for your comments, WindofChange.  I find it so mind-blowing to have had such vehement demands made of me for empathy empathy empathy... .for so long... .and yet she is not capable of any herself.

I recognize time might be constrained for you. What would be the next thing you feel you would need, say to bring comfort to yourself a little bit more?

That's a good question, braveSun... .I struggle with that mainly from the time constraint that you mentioned.  The kids just got back this afternoon from their week at the beach with my stbx, and will be with me for the next five days.  We will do some fun things... .go to the neighborhood pool... .catch up with my sister and brother-in-law so the kids can see their new house nearby.  Beyond that, I will make a renewed effort to get a few workouts in next week since there's not much more "pre-packing" I can do in preparation for my stbx's move.

I am toying with the idea of taking a day-trip to the beach by myself in a couple weeks.  Can't next week due to a business trip, but I am looking at taking a day off the week after that just to give myself a break.  And while I was thinking of different projects I could do on that day, a thought popped into my head that maybe I should just go sit in the sand and listen to the waves for a few hours with no other obligations beyond keeping myself from getting sunburned.  Due to the separation, I missed out on the family beach vacation this past week, but that doesn't mean I can't go and get some beach time on my own... .

I use a form of self hypnosis to alter the image, I remember my exs contorted face and I just replay her mouthing off but with the sound muted. Turn them into a form of cartoon character and diminish the emotional power of their snidey comments.

Cromwell, not sure if it was you or someone else on another thread that said they pictured the hateful words coming out of a 5 year old's mouth. That takes some of the power of the hurt away.

it's helpful to the nons for looking at things more objectively and getting past the deep hurt their words and actions cause. Mama-wolf, what do you think of that idea? Would it help you, do you think?

That's another interesting approach.  It appeals to me more than blasting her in some letter that I'll never send, but I think both approaches have merit.  The writing of course gets all the feelings out of my head, while the visualization helps to frame the behavior more accurately as coming from someone who lacks emotional maturity.

mw

[braveSun]

... a thought popped into my head that maybe I should just go sit in the sand and listen to the waves for a few hours with no other obligations beyond keeping myself from getting sunburned.  Due to the separation, I missed out on the family beach vacation this past week, but that doesn't mean I can't go and get some beach time on my own... .

Sounds like a good idea. I like to just sit and watch the moving water... So soothing.

Keep us posted mama-wolf. I think you're very diligent with all of this process. It speaks for your character.

[Harley Quinn]

Hi mw,

I know you're very aware of processing your feelings and anything that may come in the way of that and I was thinking about what your post is about.  It does sound to me like your feelings are finding ways out and that sometimes this will happen in it's own way, as opposed to what we think is the 'right' way or the 'expected' way.  :)oes that make sense?  

You've been feeling lasting hurt from what she said to you and it seems that you're tapping into those feelings which have probably been getting pushed down during the r/s.  That would explain why it has continued to linger and feel more strongly than you might have expected.  It took something similar for me to erupt like Mount Vesuvius after holding back my own expression for so long and it's a heavy feeling I can relate to.  I think you've handled it far more healthily than I did by thinking about what it means for you.   

On the note of processing - something that seemed to help me to channel my feelings was to work out.  Not just work out as I normally would, but literally work out as though my life depended on it.  Aside from that obvious physical exertion, other things I noted that were helpful in allowing my emotions to flow out of me were simple tasks like cleaning, or baking.  Throwing around some dough can be a good release of pent up anger and resentment at the situation we find ourselves in and getting annoying surfaces to shine can create a level of energy in our movement which can unlock and release the physical effects of pent up emotions.  After all, it's our bodies which carry the excess baggage of emotion within them from the experiences we've been through.  Just a thought.  

I think that your idea of quiet time to yourself, not doing anything but remaining free of sunburn is a wonderful prospect.  Being alone with your thoughts and without obligation to fulfil any role is a great plan.  Perhaps keep some tissues handy just in case.  

Love and light x

[PearlPark]

I'm saddened to hear about how she has dismissed your own feelings and pain
I can relate a lot to this, struggling to understand how my own ex had treated me in dismissive ways

Understanding the problem behind it has certainly helped me in detaching my emotions from the pain she's trying to inflict. What's helped me the most is understanding the motive behind my ex's behaviour, that she is incredibly mentally sick and is in a lot of mental torment. The things she said to me were incredibly hurtful and insincere, but with some practice, you can detach those words from their direct meaning and understand the underlying meaning.

When she said "I hate you" to me, it really meant she hated herself
When she said "You always make me the villain and you the victim", it meant that she felt guilty for her actions but is unable to face it.

In the end, after understanding it all, those words still hurt. But I don't feel anger or resentment towards her. Only pity because for someone to throw hurtful comments at others must be hurting a lot inside.

With time, it has also helped me a great deal to imagine the person I fell in love with had died. Because when she left me, it was like a switch had been flicked. She had changed a lot of different aspects about her, most of them for the worst. So in essence she did die and that's helped me come to terms with it.

[braveSun]

... .for someone to throw hurtful comments at others must be hurting a lot inside.

   I'm thinking a lot about this these days... It's not easy to see that in the midst of the action. It hurts a lot to hear these words. Sometimes the actions appear vengeful. It's hard to depersonalize when we are living the life  and those attacks keep coming in.

   You've been feeling lasting hurt from what she said to you and it seems that you're tapping into those feelings which have probably been getting pushed down during the r/s.  That would explain why it has continued to linger and feel more strongly than you might have expected.

  I can relate to what Harley Quinn says here too. For me, it's like I have to regroup after each and everyone of them. Not very practical for me, trying to forge a career in a new country. I can only imagine how it can be when living with kids.

[mama-wolf]

I know you're very aware of processing your feelings and anything that may come in the way of that and I was thinking about what your post is about.  It does sound to me like your feelings are finding ways out and that sometimes this will happen in it's own way, as opposed to what we think is the 'right' way or the 'expected' way.  :)oes that make sense?  

I think I can see this HQ, since really a lot of similar moments have been coming to mind too.  Times when it was made clear that my needs were just not important to her.  Or when I can see in hindsight that they were just tolerated for leverage to further get her needs met.  Mostly, it just gets me annoyed, and I find myself shaking my head at how I could have stayed in such a situation for so long.

I think you've handled it far more healthily than I did by thinking about what it means for you. 

Thanks for saying that, even though I don't really think I have been handling things very well.  I still tend to avoid or distract myself when I find myself starting to feel.  I also blew up at my kids again (twice) yesterday, but I can at least say I didn't do so on Saturday.  And I drink too much.  It's NOT something where I set out to get drunk, and I'm never sloppy around my kids--they saw too much of that from my stbx.  I'm not consciously reaching for the bottle to dull the emotions, though I get that subconsciously this is probably what I have been doing... .I just go back to refill the wine glass, or have another beer, and then realize I have had several over the course of a few hours.  I saw someone else post about drinking chamomile tea in the evenings to turn that habit around and I picked some up this weekend.

I really get what you're saying about the intense workouts.  I found the really big ones from my training plan leading up to the triathlon to be great for totally depleting me physically.  It has been harder to motivate in the mornings and get a workout in though, so I have really fallen off the exercise.  I do get into cooking and cleaning/organizing the house, but I'm not generally aware of my emotions in those times... .I'm just keeping busy. 

My stbx came over yesterday to actually pack boxes etc. while I was out of the house with the kids for several hours. Over the past week as I have been collecting/pre-packing things in preparation, I have sensed some things trying to bubble up, but I barely know what they are and just don't know what to do with them.   I of course came across a lot of keepsakes from when our kids were babies, from our wedding before having kids, from early in the relationship.  15 years is such a long time.  And it's hard to think back on the years that things seemed to be so good.  Even harder to think back and realize that interwoven through those good times were the red flags and other warning signs that I feel like I should have seen.

I think that your idea of quiet time to yourself, not doing anything but remaining free of sunburn is a wonderful prospect.  Being alone with your thoughts and without obligation to fulfil any role is a great plan.  Perhaps keep some tissues handy just in case.

Thank you for the encouragement.  I struggle to do things for myself... .things that in my mind really have no "productive" purpose.  Even the mountain trip had a purpose... .physically getting me out of the house when the kids were headed out on the beach trip, and I sold it to myself as an opportunity to help clean up the little-used cabin for my elderly aunt and uncle.  I'm a little surprised I have even let the idea of a beach day get past the first thought, and am starting to waffle a little on my conviction to see it through.

Understanding the problem behind it has certainly helped me in detaching my emotions from the pain she's trying to inflict. What's helped me the most is understanding the motive behind my ex's behaviour, that she is incredibly mentally sick and is in a lot of mental torment. The things she said to me were incredibly hurtful and insincere, but with some practice, you can detach those words from their direct meaning and understand the underlying meaning.

In the end, after understanding it all, those words still hurt. But I don't feel anger or resentment towards her. Only pity because for someone to throw hurtful comments at others must be hurting a lot inside.

Thank you for stopping by and posting a comment, PearlPark.  Yes, understanding the condition better has helped me over the months as I have been dealing with her behaviors.  It has helped me to not respond, and has helped me frame her actions and words a little differently to shape any responses I do make.

She sent me a couple of very snarky texts while packing yesterday, and I was at least able to ignore them, or in one case I sent a very brief response that I was able to keep to a reasonable tone without lashing back at her.  When I came home, I saw that she had taken a few additional items from throughout the house that we hadn't discussed or agreed on.  I let most of them go, but did take two lamps back, and sent a brief neutral message letting her know that I had done so based on the items not having been listed among the property she was taking in our separation agreement. 

With time, it has also helped me a great deal to imagine the person I fell in love with had died. Because when she left me, it was like a switch had been flicked. She had changed a lot of different aspects about her, most of them for the worst. So in essence she did die and that's helped me come to terms with it.

I can sort of relate to this bit.  In some ways, it does feel like the uBPDw of several years ago "died".  But the change wasn't that drastic.  It was so gradual, at least at first.  I think it was CatFamiliar who referred to it as the proverbial frog in boiling water... .you don't know it's getting bad, and by the time you realize what's happening, it's too late.

Looking back at the photos while sorting/packing, reading a couple of the old cards we gave each other years ago... .yes, the uBPDw of those years is long gone.  The mama-wolf of that time is gone, too, and that leaves me feeling pretty lost.  I stopped looking at those real fast after the first card or two.  Life was so different.

I can relate to what Harley Quinn says here too. For me, it's like I have to regroup after each and everyone of them. Not very practical for me, trying to forge a career in a new country. I can only imagine how it can be when living with kids.

Absolutely, braveSun... .I think the constant regrouping (especially with young kids in the mix) is what ultimately did me in.  Especially since the occurrences just kept increasing in frequency and intensity.

mw

[Harley Quinn]

Mostly, it just gets me annoyed, and I find myself shaking my head at how I could have stayed in such a situation for so long.

I hear you.  I stayed with my son's father for 10 years and afterwards I was floored when I began to realise what that actually meant for me.  I felt really hollow, like he'd scooped out all of the good things that were inside me and left me with just a frame.  If that makes sense.  His abuse was gradual, drip drip drip like.  Lots of gaslighting, being scathing, contemptuous and plain nasty, cutting me down, silent treatment, angry outbursts, even behaving at times delusional.  I was so unhappy for so long.  It was very hard to come to terms with the fact I'd stayed and subjected myself to that.  I like the frog in boiling water analogy.  That's very fitting.   

Thanks for saying that, even though I don't really think I have been handling things very well.  I still tend to avoid or distract myself when I find myself starting to feel.  I also blew up at my kids again (twice) yesterday, but I can at least say I didn't do so on Saturday.

 

Do you think it's possible there's a lot of anger inside of you wanting to be expressed?  If you're finding that it's escaping in places your wouldn't want it to that might be an indicator.  Just a thought, but maybe writing here all the things that make you feel mad could help.  Otherwise, is it possible that you're flat exhausted and just lost a bit of patience with the kids?  We can easily feel that way in a normal week of parenting, never mind when the whole family has just gone through a massive change.  It's OK to not get everything right as a parent.  Our kids see we're human and that it's alright to make mistakes which is an important lesson for them.  Especially if we own up and apologise should we go too far.     

I drink too much.

 

The fact you think so, and are happy to outwardly acknowledge it is a positive thing.  I've also bought some chamomile tea.  Have you tried it yet?

Even harder to think back and realize that interwoven through those good times were the red flags and other warning signs that I feel like I should have seen.

Try not to beat yourself up.  You're going through enough.  I did the same thing to myself and it didn't help anything.  In fact I've put an awful lot of blame on myself for things that happened and I didn't cause them.  Some of these things we can't see coming, and others we don't recognise because we are conditioned by that point.  There is plenty of time to think about flags of many colours and what to do with them in the future.  Right now, be kind to yourself 

I'm a little surprised I have even let the idea of a beach day get past the first thought, and am starting to waffle a little on my conviction to see it through.

Sometimes, doing something different to what we normally would is a really good idea when we're having a tough time.  Other times we hate it and think 'what am I doing this for?'  Only one way to find out... .

Love and light x

[braveSun]

 
Sometimes, doing something different to what we normally would is a really good idea when we're having a tough time.  Other times we hate it and think 'what am I doing this for?'  Only one way to find out... . 

   I like this, Harley Quinn. It's true. I've been there.

Another thing also, sometimes I would try to find what I need next, and I get great ideas I cannot implement right away, than I go back into silencing the need. Sometimes just having little dosages of some other activities/objects/places that brings about the same feeling we need can be freely available in our day to day.