Met a girl at a party, pt. 2

[Depression = 72% of members]

CryWolf,
I wanted to let you know that I'm kinda in the same boat as you right now.  Some attraction/flirting started going on with someone in my neighborhood about a month ago and I'm having a hard time keeping myself from making "Neighbor B" analysis a full time job.  I'm also struggling with the frustration of not being able to control the situation to the degree I would like, and the anxiety associated with the uncertainty of it all.

I'll share some of the advice I'm getting from my BFFs.  Maybe we can commiserate over how impossible it seems. 

Date other people - One of my BFFs suggested this week I go ahead and put up a profile on a dating site or two.  It's still early days after my divorce and earlier than I thought I'd start dating, but as she watches my thoughts (and maybe some feelings) progress towards Neighbor B she is encouraging me to keep my dating field open.  I tend to agree with her that having other "options" could help diffuse my emotional investment in Neighbor B and, more importantly, help me stay in a mode of "what do I want?" vs. "what can I live with?".  If I'm hitting it off with someone who isn't 10.5 years older than me and has all his hair, maybe it won't matter so much whether Neighbor B is using fewer exclamation points in his texts to me. 

Do other things - I have noticed that I have started planning my day around when Neighbor B might be around or texting and I'm fighting that urge.  It's a little to easy to do my nightly jog as laps around the neighborhood rather than getting out a bit further.  Not only does "doing other things" keep me from seeming a bit TOO available (my friends and therapist keep reminding me that I'm worth working for), it helps keep my mind occupied in a positive manner.

Keep the "relationship" in perspective - Neighbor B hasn't officially asked me out.  He's said things like "we should get dinner sometime" and the like, but he's kept it vague (don't get me started on the million reasons I've determined he could be doing so).  I haven't really even started to get to know him, so at this point my feelings are really only based on fantasy and potential - not who he is.  Keeping that in mind does (sometimes) help me detach from his actions, or lack thereof.  It helps to remind myself that I want a healthy, loving relationship.  I don't yet know if I want that with him, specifically.

Remember that whether he wants relationship with me has to be secondary to whether I want relationship with him - This is a biggie!  It is so easy for me to spend all my time wondering how he feels about me and not give a second thought to how I feel about him.  It's far too easy for me to be thinking about how I could make the relationship work and not ask "should I?".   

Remember your worth - I think at this stage I am in love with the idea of being in love (or at least in love with the idea of being in "like" and I can see the danger of falling back into the pattern of care taking and equating being needed with being loved.  Before I know it I'd be married to someone that takes fore granted what I will offer with so little asked in return.  It goes back to what my therapist has requested of me - Don't consider dating until you understand your worth without anyone else having to tell you what it is.  My friends keep "harping" on the fact that I'm worth being pursued, so if Neighbor B isn't into pursuing or, more likely based on my patterns, I don't give him the opportunity to pursue me because I'm too busy pursuing him, then I'm allowing my worth be be dictated by someone else. 

Looking at your situation, it's a little easier for me to see the  you are facing and then extrapolate to my own, so thank you for being so candid.

Your last post has me wanting to offer you one piece of advise.  It sounds like you are looking for an exclusive relationship with this woman (you don't like the idea of her dating other guys while she is "evaluating" you).  It may not be something you want to acknowledge to her, or even to yourself, but that's the impression I've gotten.  I think that's something you may want to spend some time thinking about.  I don't think you necessarily need to work towards being "okay" with her not being exclusive, but I think you would benefit from remembering that she was very open with you from the beginning that she is not all that interested in being exclusive at this time.  Thinking that is just because she hasn't met the right guy (you), does a disservice to both of you.  It denies her the right to not be ready for an exclusive relationship, and leaves you questioning why you weren't "enough" to make her want to be exclusive. 

If you decide you really want her to move towards exclusivity (you seem to already be there), then I think you should consider having an honest conversation with her about it and be willing to walk away from the relationship rather than compromise on where you want it to go.  What do you think?

BG

[BeagleGirl]

CryWolf,
I wanted to let you know that I'm kinda in the same boat as you right now.  Some attraction/flirting started going on with someone in my neighborhood about a month ago and I'm having a hard time keeping myself from making "Neighbor B" analysis a full time job.  I'm also struggling with the frustration of not being able to control the situation to the degree I would like, and the anxiety associated with the uncertainty of it all.

I'll share some of the advice I'm getting from my BFFs.  Maybe we can commiserate over how impossible it seems. 

Date other people - One of my BFFs suggested this week I go ahead and put up a profile on a dating site or two.  It's still early days after my divorce and earlier than I thought I'd start dating, but as she watches my thoughts (and maybe some feelings) progress towards Neighbor B she is encouraging me to keep my dating field open.  I tend to agree with her that having other "options" could help diffuse my emotional investment in Neighbor B and, more importantly, help me stay in a mode of "what do I want?" vs. "what can I live with?".  If I'm hitting it off with someone who isn't 10.5 years older than me and has all his hair, maybe it won't matter so much whether Neighbor B is using fewer exclamation points in his texts to me. 

Do other things - I have noticed that I have started planning my day around when Neighbor B might be around or texting and I'm fighting that urge.  It's a little to easy to do my nightly jog as laps around the neighborhood rather than getting out a bit further.  Not only does "doing other things" keep me from seeming a bit TOO available (my friends and therapist keep reminding me that I'm worth working for), it helps keep my mind occupied in a positive manner.

Keep the "relationship" in perspective - Neighbor B hasn't officially asked me out.  He's said things like "we should get dinner sometime" and the like, but he's kept it vague (don't get me started on the million reasons I've determined he could be doing so).  I haven't really even started to get to know him, so at this point my feelings are really only based on fantasy and potential - not who he is.  Keeping that in mind does (sometimes) help me detach from his actions, or lack thereof.  It helps to remind myself that I want a healthy, loving relationship.  I don't yet know if I want that with him, specifically.

Remember that whether he wants relationship with me has to be secondary to whether I want relationship with him - This is a biggie!  It is so easy for me to spend all my time wondering how he feels about me and not give a second thought to how I feel about him.  It's far too easy for me to be thinking about how I could make the relationship work and not ask "should I?".   

Remember your worth - I think at this stage I am in love with the idea of being in love (or at least in love with the idea of being in "like" and I can see the danger of falling back into the pattern of care taking and equating being needed with being loved.  Before I know it I'd be married to someone that takes fore granted what I will offer with so little asked in return.  It goes back to what my therapist has requested of me - Don't consider dating until you understand your worth without anyone else having to tell you what it is.  My friends keep "harping" on the fact that I'm worth being pursued, so if Neighbor B isn't into pursuing or, more likely based on my patterns, I don't give him the opportunity to pursue me because I'm too busy pursuing him, then I'm allowing my worth be be dictated by someone else. 

Looking at your situation, it's a little easier for me to see the  you are facing and then extrapolate to my own, so thank you for being so candid.

Your last post has me wanting to offer you one piece of advise.  It sounds like you are looking for an exclusive relationship with this woman (you don't like the idea of her dating other guys while she is "evaluating" you).  It may not be something you want to acknowledge to her, or even to yourself, but that's the impression I've gotten.  I think that's something you may want to spend some time thinking about.  I don't think you necessarily need to work towards being "okay" with her not being exclusive, but I think you would benefit from remembering that she was very open with you from the beginning that she is not all that interested in being exclusive at this time.  Thinking that is just because she hasn't met the right guy (you), does a disservice to both of you.  It denies her the right to not be ready for an exclusive relationship, and leaves you questioning why you weren't "enough" to make her want to be exclusive. 

If you decide you really want her to move towards exclusivity (you seem to already be there), then I think you should consider having an honest conversation with her about it and be willing to walk away from the relationship rather than compromise on where you want it to go.  What do you think?

BG

[CryWolf]

WIll reply when I can, at work. But I sent her a “I’ll pick you up at 3 on Friday!” And she put 3 emojis of the “nice” sign. Like agreeing.

It makes me seem like she doesn’t care at all.

[Turkish]

WIll reply when I can, at work. But I sent her a “I’ll pick you up at 3 on Friday!” And she put 3 emojis of the “nice” sign. Like agreeing.

It makes me seem like she doesn’t care at all.

How would you want her to respond?

[CryWolf]

How would you want her to respond?

Some words. Maybe she can’t wait? How excited she is? Not emojis... words... she sent me a playlist and I sent her one and asked her thoughts and she never even replied

[BeagleGirl]

How quickly did she respond with said emojis?

Has she ever been "wordy" in text exchanges before?

I can definitely help you (over) analyze this a bit.  As mentioned above, I'm currently trying to figure out the meaning of certain exclamation points. 

But as a diversion, maybe you could ponder aloud on what the purpose of your communication with her is.  Are you:

a)  Communicating facts
b)  Trying to give her information about yourself?
c)  Trying to get information about her?
d)  Trying to tell her how you feel?
e)  Trying to get her to tell you how she feels?
f)  Trying to discern what your worth is?
g)  Other

BG

[CryWolf]

How quickly did she respond with said emojis?

Has she ever been "wordy" in text exchanges before?

I can definitely help you (over) analyze this a bit.  As mentioned above, I'm currently trying to figure out the meaning of certain exclamation points.  

But as a diversion, maybe you could ponder aloud on what the purpose of your communication with her is.  Are you:

a)  Communicating facts
b)  Trying to give her information about yourself?
c)  Trying to get information about her?
d)  Trying to tell her how you feel?
e)  Trying to get her to tell you how she feels?
f)  Trying to discern what your worth is?
g)  Other

BG

She’s never been wordy. But she does respond in a timely manner before.  But slowly our exchanges became less after each date. But the dates themselves have been Incredibly awesome. I remember our first date I apologized if I’m a bad texter and then after that our texting slowly died down because she said she’s is too and how her friends think she ignores them.

After the second date I told her I’m so busy ar work it’s crazy then her responses died down even more and longer wait times. Not sure if she’s dating someone new and only messaged me around midnight when she gets dropped off. Because that seems to be the same time I take her home. But she initiated contacted both times after our dates.

This time however contact died down and she seems less responsive. Completely different in person.

I get this vibe she uses people for a good time. She’s mentioned before how she wants to call an Uber and if it’s a guy just do whatever they want and it won’t work if I’m there’s because I’m a guy.

She still responds and even accepted a third date. But response time isn’t much less.

The responses were short before but now they just seem like she is not interested.
 This has happened before in all my prior relation ships. They text less and less and more vague until they ghost you. Or stop talking to you. And the “it’s been note you it’s me”

As well as, I tried starting multiple convos with her and she just doesn’t respond rsosknd. Before she would send random snaps. She hasn’t since last Wednesday. She only replies to mine. I am doing all the chasing.

[CryWolf]

IN person she communicates very well. ASKs a lot of questions.

Seems engaged and sharing.
First date she showed me around her campus. Second date she showed me this museum and talked about her childhood, foo, anxiety, fears. We talked about a lot of personal questions.

I snapped her this morning saying “hope you have a great day” she never replied.

But she replied to my text about picking her up. But she ignored the playlist I made her. So idk? Idk what is going on. But anytime anything regarding feelings or flirting is involve, she doesn’t reciprocate over text.

I’m thinking about telling her I would like this to get serious down the road and what intentions are. I want to ask her how many people she’s talking to but I don’t know if this is a bad idea. I would like more answers and clarity.

Don’t get me wrong seeing her is awesome but that’s once every 10 days. The next days it’s like I don’t exist.

[CryWolf]

Is it wierd that this girl makes me feel similar to what my BPDex did? nervous, anxious, fog? or am i just being paranoid?

[Turkish]

Is it wierd that this girl makes me feel similar to what my BPDex did? nervous, anxious, fog? or am i just being paranoid?

Maybe her communication style is just the way she is. Given that and what you need,  maybe you might not be a good match.  Would you consider that it might be just that? Go on the date, see how it goes.  People reveal their true character by doing rather than saying,  and my personal view is that texting falls under saying rather than doing. 

[once removed]

or am i just being paranoid?

thought and fears are gripping you pretty tightly.

Is it wierd that this girl makes me feel similar to what my BPDex did?

i think that there are two issues here. theyre not about emojis  

the first is that if youre finding yourself feeling this way with each girl, and repeating these patterns, stop and ask what part of that is you. thats what we are here to do, learn more about ourselves, get perspective on what we learn, unlearn some unhealthy behaviors, learn healthier ways of coping.

i think that attachment styles would be a great start and bring a lot of perspective as to why you find these patterns repeating. this link would be a good starting point, and i highly recommend the book: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=279028.0

It sounds like you are looking for an exclusive relationship with this woman (you don't like the idea of her dating other guys while she is "evaluating" you).  It may not be something you want to acknowledge to her, or even to yourself, but that's the impression I've gotten.  I think that's something you may want to spend some time thinking about.  I don't think you necessarily need to work towards being "okay" with her not being exclusive, but I think you would benefit from remembering that she was very open with you from the beginning that she is not all that interested in being exclusive at this time.  

you are pushing for more than this girl has signaled she is prepared to offer.

it happens. when it does, sometimes its us. sometimes its them. sometimes its not anybody, it just doesnt work, and thats okay.

i would second BeagleGirl in encouraging you to think that through. i dont think the healthy solution, whatever conclusions you come to, is to keep pushing, to chase, to try and engage her in lengthy text conversations when she doesnt respond (and has told you she does the same to everyone), or to expect her to be exclusive. it has not worked in the past. it will not work in the future.

i would ask myself some questions about whether im being realistic in my expectations in general or based on what shes told you. i would ask myself whether or not i can honestly work with what she has communicated to me.

next, i would ask myself what i like and dont like about this girl. the attraction here seems far more based on fears and anxieties and trying to control the outcome than it does anything about who she is and what shes like, or even, frankly, whats in it for you.

it is valid and reasonable to say "we just arent clicking, it isnt working for me" or "im just not comfortable dating someone who may be seeing other people/may or may not be a dead end", and then act accordingly.

the question is, in this case, what do you think acting accordingly might be?

[CryWolf]

You all are right. I spent most of the day reflecting, and putting too much behind texts. I am too focused on locking a relationship when I should enjoy whatever this is and take it slow and organic. Whether she likes me or not should be on her, and not me trying to force it.

Her actions seem in person are different than the phone. I need to stop being anxious and wondering and making scenarios and being scared if im going to be played or used. Its either going to happen or not, and falling in love is going to happen or not. This is dating. It could be magical or treachorous but its all a learning experience. Just like being in a rs with a pwBPD. it all helps you grow.

The best thing here is to be my true self. Take it slow and not overanalyze every little thing. Show her the real me and if it doesnt work, i know I did the best i could and have no regrets. be nothing but authentic.

I have fears if shes dating around or not, but this is my own insecurities of self worth playing in.

chasing and pursuing too much has never ended in my favor. I know i have an anxious attatchment style. i have been great at managing my anxiety the past few months but lately not so much.

I need to go back to being the confident and go with the flow version.

I am going to respect her boundaries of not texting too much and leaving it up to her.

This friday Im going to continue being myself, making her laugh and creating attraction.

I would like for her to chase me and see me as the best option, this is the goal I would like but I am too focused on this that I am forcing it than letting be natural.

So far she agrees to my dates, and thats the best sign yet.

[Turkish]

This sounds like a good plan.  Print it out and pin it to your fridge 

[CryWolf]

She just messaged me saying, “I have to be home by 11 on Friday, just so you know”

Uhm cold much? Trying not to think much into it.

Her messages are so cold now. Like dead cold. And I don’t think it’s me being anxious at this point but intuition.

[Turkish]

Or she could just be being polite and informative?

Your texting styles are different. Can you text back mirroring that?

"Thanks, good to know. See you then."

She's going out with you.  I think that's a big thing rather than "sorry,  I have to cancel because I have to wash my cat."

[once removed]

i think Turkishs advice on how to reply is spot on. you mentioned you keep trying to engage her by text. if she is indeed dialing things back, its a sign to dial it back yourself. frankly, either way, its a good old fashioned BIFF reply and realistically what text is for.

I should enjoy whatever this is and take it slow and organic.

should you?

its one thing to say/realize "im being unrealistic and i ought to switch gears". sometimes thats all it takes.

i dont know if its the best approach in every case. i saw(?) a girl who wanted to keep things very limited to text. shed initiate conversation and want to chat all day, but if i initiated, she was usually pretty unavailable. she did a lot of the pursuing for a time. when shed pursue hard, id push to get together (both because i thought it was what i was "supposed" to do and because i was not content, i wasnt looking for a pen pal). shed shut it down. told me she was nervous and required patience. i told myself okay, be cool, play by her rules (in reality id be anxious waiting for her to contact me and reading into everything).

i couldnt tell you then or now what i liked about her other than i found her very physically attractive and loved her attention. i could articulate a lot about what i didnt like about her.

i waited to get together for some months, agonizing with absurd and over the top anxiety most of the time. we finally did, at her favorite bar. i broke the touch barrier. we got on well enough. i didnt like anything in particular about her. i thought it was kinda rude that she didnt introduce my friend and i to her friends and kind of segregated us. i could tell though, id done well if i wanted her to like me more, and thats all i cared about. and then i promptly got too heavy (chased) and it blew up, and we barely ever spoke again.

i dont wish to paint her black; i think i was barking up the wrong tree in the first place. i didnt care much for her as a person, but about the attention and the chase, and that was a lot of chase for someone i supposedly didnt much care for. more than that, i think we just didnt click with each other; i think i have a good idea of what shed say about me.

not trying to hijack. my point is that this stuff, and navigating it, isnt all black and white. i was a mess, i could have played it better, and thats obvious to me. its not something i want to repeat. but neither is pursuing something that is clearly not for me in the first place.

i do think you are overreacting. i think it couldnt be more obvious that shes interested (the potential of that interest is not clear). i think connection is not formed by text and that expecting it to be will not help in the modern dating world. i dont think thats the entire point. as i think BeagleGirl was saying, the point isnt to just adapt and try to change yourself to suit something that doesnt work for you. anxiety or discomfort over someone youre dating possibly seeing other people is perfectly legitimate and a scenario that is not for everyone and it can either be reasonable or foolhardy to adapt to. shes been upfront about dating a lot and currently not looking to be exclusive. respect it. that doesnt necessarily mean like it.

i think thats why others are asking you what you see in her. what you like about her. whether she passes your tests. important things to ask oneself ahead of a third date.

when you can answer that, when you approach dating that way, i think the rest of it, how to approach it, read it, and why, gets a lot clearer.

[BeagleGirl]

Okay, so for that (over) analysis I promised -

If she got back to you pretty quickly on the informative text (I'll be picking you up at x) it probably means that she's monitoring her phone and prioritizes getting back to you.  It can also mean "I like this type of text."  

If she takes longer to respond, or doesn't respond, to a "what do you feel about me" text (Here's a playlist I put together) it can mean that she doesn't like, or doesn't know what to do with those types of texts.  Or it could mean that she doesn't feel texting is an appropriate medium for a response and would prefer to discuss face to face.

"I need to be home by 11" could be a way of saying she wants to put some boundaries on your time together because she feels like you're pushing her boundaries, or it could be a very sweet courtesy letting you know in advance that she won't be able to spend as much time with you in advance rather than the night of.  

The thing is... .you don't know.  You want to know, and you think you may be able to figure it out, but YOU DON'T KNOW.  In my opinion there are two good ways to handle this situation and one bad way.  

Good ways -
Ask her for the information you want.  It's probably good to keep in mind that this still may not provide the answer because she may not be straight with you or may evade the question.

Get "okay" with not knowing, at least in the short term.  If you feel like you need the information to take action, maybe it's not time to take action.  Or, maybe you need to reevaluate why you want to take that action.

Example - I really like Neighbor B's kids.  I would like to spend more time with them.  BUT if something of a more romantic nature were to start developing between me and Neighbor B I would not want to be a presence in their lives unless/until things got serious.  I need to do my own work to understand my motives for spending time with his kids (is it primarily because I love kids, or is it caretaking Neighbor B, or a way to establish connection with him, etc).  That's actually more important in determining whether I should be spending time with them or not than whether a potential relationship with Neighbor B might complicate it, but trying to figure out what Neighbor B wants feels easier.  I don't know what Neighbor B's intentions are.  I think he's interested, but he hasn't asked me out.  I feel like I need to know what his intentions are before offering to babysit his kids again.  I can either ask him what his intentions are, wait until it becomes clear from his long term actions (not asking me out in the next month and interaction "cooling off" over the same time frame), or... .

Bad way -
Assume I have "figured him out".  The problem with this is that my reciprocal action would change on a daily, probably hourly, basis as I reinterpret the "evidence".  

Heck, missing sleep because I have been up past midnight playing Words With Friends with Neighbor B every night for a week put me in a sleep deprived "mood" where I decided he totally isn't interested in ANYTHING with me.  Well duh - this guy is up past midnight playing Words With Friends with you.  That's probably an indication that he welcomes the interaction... .Or wait... .Maybe he's just REALLY into Words With Friends.  Or maybe he needs to get his stats up so he can impress other women.  See.  My mind can reinterpret the smallest things in so many different ways.  Meanwhile, Neighbor B is just trying to work up the nerve to ask me out.  Or ask me to watch his kids so he can go out with someone else.  Or he's enjoying this level of connection while waiting for what he feels is a more appropriate time after my divorce for me to be "ready". Or... .

FWIW, I suspect Neighbor B is doing his own "mind reading".  In our past two in person interactions he has brought up his age at least 3 times.  I think he may be trying to gauge my feelings about the age difference.  And, while I have no real problem with it, I am pretty sure that my responses have left him still wondering.  The only ways for him to be sure are to outright ask, or keep hinting at it over a long period of time and see if he can "trend" my responses without letting his mood flavor them.

Next topic - Texting styles.  

My job requires that I have my phone with me at all times.  It's also one that requires travel and all my colleagues live in different states.  This means that I'm very adept at maintaining relationship via text/IM/phone calls.  It's the way I work and play.  I also reflect my personality in my texts.  I always use correct grammar and punctuation.  I generally don't abbreviate anything (I use short phrases for longer words and phrases that I don't want to type each time but want to appear "properly".  But I'm also playful and sprinkle in GIFs and emojis as I see appropriate.  I only text a few people between the hours of 11pm and 7am.  If you're in my circle of closest friends, all hours of the day and night.  

Neighbor B's job requires that all electronics be left in a secured area for the duration of the work day.  He's NOT constantly looking at his phone because he can't.  I've found that he almost never responds to texts before he goes to work, and rarely before he's gotten home, eaten dinner, and settled in for the evening.  When he does respond, he also uses correct grammar, no/few abbreviations, and correct punctuation.  He's not a GIF or emoji guy, but he tends to sprinkle in exclamation points for emphasis.  

I have another friend whose texts require a decoder ring to interpret.  She never capitalizes or punctuates.  Emojis replace and are sometimes inserted in words, but sometimes she'll write out "smile" rather than insert the emoji.  I tend to call her on the phone when I see a text from her.  Our styles are too different and texting will only frustrate me as I try to figure out what she is trying to say.

Next Topic - Fantasy/Fears vs reality

We tend to fill the gaps with fantasy or fears when we don't know someone.  It's natural.  In a healthy relationship we will posit those "gap fillers" as hypotheses, test them over time, and replace with reality as it becomes established.  Those of us who have been in unhealthy relationships can have the tendency to either keep holding onto the fantasy (that's the approach I took with dBPDxh) or listen to the fear and get out of/sabotage the relationship before we can get hurt.  

The best thing I think you can do at this stage of the relationship is to hold your assumptions up against what she has told you/shown you CLEARLY.  Let her be who she is.  That doesn't mean you have to like/stay in relationship with her.  Just try really hard to not act towards her based on your fears/fantasy.  She's told you that she's not into exclusive relationships.  Your fear is that she's seeing other guys and you're just being used for dates.  Your fantasy is that she will fall madly in love with you and you will live happily ever after.  The reality is probably somewhere between those two but, based on what she's told you, it's probably closer to your fear than your fantasy.  I'm not saying you should cut your losses and run, but I think you need to be extra careful not to rely on the fantasy gap fillers that contradict what she has told you.

Sorry for the long post, but I've been thinking a lot about your situation, probably because it hits so closely to mine.

Thanks,
BG

[CryWolf]

Thank you so much BeagleGirl, Once Removed and Turkish. Your words have resonated with me these past few days.

Here is what happened on date 3:


 picked her up from her parents. she came outside with her parents puppy that we talked about before. so cute

then she got in my car and handed me her credit card so she pays all day and she took my wallet. we got to this sunflower farm, and they  only took cash so i insisted to pay. we walked around, held hands and picked flowers. i encouraged her to get some for her mom too.

then we went to the lake, and had a picnic with wine. i made a bunch of food. she was surprised and in awe and grateful. we fed ducks, and talked.

we talked a lot about our relationship styles. I told her i like doing romantic gestures and she said she dislikes some and likes some. she doesnt like goodmorning/night texts. she hates being fed, she hates a lot of it. shes not an affectionate person unless shes in a serious committed relationship.
but she does like how i open doors and chairs for her and how im chivalrous and other things i do.

she also told me how her two exes, she was the one who dumped them and she never had her heart broken. i told her i never broke someones heart. and i joked and said "maybe ill break urs" and she said "no, i dont get nervous around you or any guy i talked to so i can easily talk to anyone and not be bothered" not sure if this was her friendzoning me or what.


we talked about her texting style. she said she doesnt text much because she doesnt feel the need to drag a convo on or force one. she doesnt text anyone consistently. she also said how she is always out and doesnt want to be on her phone just like how she isnt on it with me. and when she gets home shes really tired to do anything and forgets

she kept mentioniing how she loves how I planned everythng and no one does that for her.
we talked about how to handle situations if shes mad in a relationship. how to communicate, etc.

we saw the sunset together. i told her i was going to tag her on my instagram story and she didnt say no.

we joked a lot during the day. and i tried making my intentions clear that i want something more in time and im in no rush.

she doesnt seem to rush anything.

she told me how shes leaving for new york on tuesday and doesnt know when she will be back or if she will ever come back. she got a one way ticket there.

this had me sad for the remainder of the night. we got alcoholic icecream, before i offered to drop flowers at her parents and take her back to the city to meet her friends so she wouldnt uber. she told me how i spoil her unlike other people because i jokingly told her shes spoiled.

car ride back was quiet. we listened to music, i didnt know what to talk about. i was tired as hell and she was about to go out with friends. walked her out the car and she gave me a side hug. not sure if i should be mad or what because it wasnt a full hug. and this might have been the last time we saw each other... .

i did want to kiss her so many times but she seemed anxious and would step away.


i brought up how she had me confused about bringing up other dates and she said "i never really put thought into it" and later in the ngiht about how she gave me a third date when she doesnt really do that. and she said how much she has a fun time with me and the things we do no one does for her.

[CryWolf]

I’m kicking myself over the fact I didn’t kiss her and if this played a factor in any of it. I’m not sure if being too patient is a downfall. I would see her put chapstick all day so I was thinking she was preparing for a kiss. Then when I step closer she would step away a little. So mixed messages.

[Harley Quinn]

she told me how shes leaving for new york on tuesday and doesnt know when she will be back or if she will ever come back. she got a one way ticket there.

Perhaps this is the reason she might have wanted to avoid a kiss.  Maybe she didn't want to hurt you by getting closer then leaving possibly for good.  What do you think?  How are you feeling about this news now that you've had time to think about it?

Overall it sounds like your date went well and there was some good open dialogue, which included the above statement from her.  Did she say anything about wanting to stay in touch whilst she is gone?  What are your thoughts about the potential of this becoming more now?

My inclination is to say that I'd be tempted to view this as practice.  Getting back into the dating world after a dysfunctional r/s can uncover all kinds of things we didn't foresee and I'm wondering if this is a good time to step away and reassess.  If this was the last time you see one another, you can be proud of yourself that you ended things on a good note and showed her a lovely time.  By the sounds of it you've given her enough to go on for her to have a good idea of your intentions and if that proves to be what she is also looking for then she has your number.  Can you be OK with that?

Love and light x

[steelwork]

Crywolf, I've been following your dates. We're here to be honest with and helpful to each other, right? Based on what I'm reading, this young lady has let you know in many ways that she's not available for a serious exclusive relationship. Be honest with yourself: is that what you're looking for--with her or with someone? Are your desires and expectations aligned, or are you hoping to coax her into having the same expectations and outlook as you?

[CryWolf]

Perhaps this is the reason she might have wanted to avoid a kiss.  Maybe she didn't want to hurt you by getting closer then leaving possibly for good.  What do you think?  How are you feeling about this news now that you've had time to think about it?

I thought this too. It made more sense that she became distant towards the end of our date. when i would reach for her hand she would reach back to not reaching back and telling me excuses.

I feel devastated. everything just ends.

Overall it sounds like your date went well and there was some good open dialogue, which included the above statement from her.  Did she say anything about wanting to stay in touch whilst she is gone?  What are your thoughts about the potential of this becoming more now?

I asked her if we were going to keep in touch while she was away, and she said "she will be mostly busy"

and i said thats fine, we can hang out when you come back.

she didnt say anything. On the ride home, we were both a bit quite. i would look at her, and she seemed zoned out. she looked blank and just looked straight ahead...

I actually am open to the idea of her living her life and we hang out and date. not put all my eggs in one basket. I have been so busy with work that she has been the only person Ive been dating while working full time. I havent had time to meet someone new and date around.

If this was the last time you see one another, you can be proud of yourself that you ended things on a good note and showed her a lovely time.  By the sounds of it you've given her enough to go on for her to have a good idea of your intentions and if that proves to be what she is also looking for then she has your number.  Can you be OK with that?

I wanted to play the dates full out and be on the highest level if this were to become serious. I knew if she was or wasnt ready. she seemed confused, and I didnt expect her to fall in love with me or wait for her. I did my best and for her to see what I was willing to give and do. I played my game full out with this girl, as the other girls I was not.

this girl and I had so many similar values, interests, hobbies. we could talk for hours and this last date she just didnt seem all there. maybe i was asking too many serious questions which pushed her and scared her?

i know girls like guys whose feelings are unclear... maybe i showed too much of myself and my intentions?

She always messages me after a date asking if i made it home safe or saying thank you. but she didnt this time. i know she went out with her friends last night, but not even a text today. I know im not entitled. but she did this before and now she didnt.

i messaged her asking if she wanted to get food before her shift at work and i could drop her off at work. she told me "sorry fam, i got plans"

calling someone "fam" is instant friendzone... .I told her "its cool, maybe when you get back" and i sent her a pic i took of her yesterday... i look desperate.

 i dont expect her to respond anymore, and her pulling this back is something im accustomed to by other people i dated. people become cold and distant when they dont anymore association with someone.




 

she's not available for a serious exclusive relationship. Be honest with yourself: is that what you're looking for--with her or with someone? Are your desires and expectations aligned, or are you hoping to coax her into having the same expectations and outlook as you?

yes this is true. I knew she was confused but also wanting to enjoy her single life. i was confused based off the intensity of our dates.

i told her im not in any rush, but wanted her to know my intentions. maybe i shared too much and she got bored.


I know i fell for this girl quick. i know this could be a red flag, and unhealthy. i didnt say this before but on our second date during dinner, she did this little trick with a straw and it looks like a worm. my mom used to do this when i was a very young child. when this girl did that, i instantly went back to my moments of childhood and felt connection and pure happiness. i dont know how this happeend but that moment on the date made me feel so damn happy. it sounds very wierd ...

i dont expect this girl to speak to me again. she seems like she wants a challenge and i stopped playing games and being on and off. i showed her my true colors and told her how i love romantic gestures, etc.

[CryWolf]

I’m sad that after all that I did, and showed her she called me “fam”.

Either she’s playing games now, or she’s upset I didn’t kiss her in my window of opportunity. Or I’m overthinking it. But you don’t call someone fam unless you have no complete feelings for them.

[steelwork]

I’m sad that after all that I did, and showed her she called me “fam”. 

FWIW, Crywolf—I’m not sure she’s calling you “fam” here. I think more likely it was a comma error, and her plans involve her family.

More importantly, though: I would encourage you to step back from all the strategic thinking and gamesmanship—both in terms of what you are attributing to her and what you are attempting. If it’s right, it’s right. Strategy generally doesn’t yeild meaningful results in matters of the heart.

Finally: pay close attention to the significance you took from the gesture that reminded you of your mother. maybe you are projecting some feelings onto this girl that does have so much to do with her.

[once removed]

shes a girl not interested in an exclusive relationship. shes a girl that generally only goes on two dates or less. shes a girl with her life ahead of her, interested in what it will bring, and looking forward to new york. very independent and far from interested in being tied down.

crywolf i think her actions and her words have told you this every step of the way.

i think in this last date you told her you wanted more. i think she read that and responded respectfully, to you, and to herself. she dialed it back because thats not what she wants and doesnt want to signal to a guy that wants more, that she does.

and yes, i think you responded to that by chasing and over pursuing.

my advice might be to write her a short note. that you had a blast getting to know her and hang out with her. that shes sexy and cool (or whatever). that you hope she has a blast in new york and hope that if she comes back around, that she will keep you in mind.

i wouldnt count on her doing so, at all, and id let go of it there.

you showed a cool gal a good time and she went on three dates with you, which she doesnt normally do. theres a lot to be proud of. this always had a low ceiling, and yes it sucks to be into a girl and have her leave town. it happens, and it will happen again, but it sucks.

theres a lot to be proud of. hang in there.

[CryWolf]

my advice might be to write her a short note. that you had a blast getting to know her and hang out with her. that shes sexy and cool (or whatever). that you hope she has a blast in new york and hope that if she comes back around, that she will keep you in mind.

i wouldnt count on her doing so, at all, and id let go of it there.

do you really think i should send another message? it wouldnt come off as needy after she didnt respond yesterday?


A lot of red flags I overlooked:
-she loves drugs and doing any type of drug no matter what time of day. everytime hung out together she was either high or got high.

-she loves talking about how other guys want her or other dates with other guys

-she compared me to other guys of my similar race, second date she said how im not like any guy she dated before...
and third date she said "we are all alike" -- huge crush to my self esteem.

-she made herself seem to be unobtainable and how she doesnt fall for anyone and how she breaks hearts

-she told me some things on the first date and when i brought it up, she said she never said that and if she did it was because it was the first date and she didnt want to come off as a bad person.

-when i tried holding her hand in the car, she told i need better moves, i said "i dont play games" and she said "everyone plays games". i asked her what game shes putting on me as a joke and she said "i cant tell you'

-she asked what my name was on the second date during dinner... .

-she is very insecure of her image, and whenever we talk about anything with how something makes us feel she would quickly change subject.  or zone out.

[steelwork]

Maybe now is a time for you to review what it was that drew you to this person so strongly--given all the "red flags" (a term I've come to dislike very much) that you list. Maybe you can work on identifying the qualities in that golden triangle of "I am attracted to her; she's good for me; she's available to me."

[Cromwell]

i dont expect this girl to speak to me again. she seems like she wants a challenge and i stopped playing games and being on and off. i showed her my true colors and told her how i love romantic gestures, etc.

Hi Crywolf,

Once you reach between date 3 and 5, each side by that point has figured out enough if there is something more. The only thing id like to say is that, do not feel you did the wrong thing by showing your true colours ie, being yourself (what else can you be?), however, once it gets to a stage during a date where things are not going the way youd like them to, I try to think of how to end the date as soon as possible - it helps to date more than one girl so you dont become fixated on just one it makes it easier to avoid disappointment as you have others scheduled in.

[once removed]

do you really think i should send another message? it wouldnt come off as needy after she didnt respond yesterday?

its one idea. im not telling you to do it. ending things on a sweet "have fun" note is just a good gesture that might help her remember you fondly and possibly think of you if she comes back. its no pressure, it wishes her well, it lets her go.

A lot of red flags I overlooked:

im gonna be blunt here CW. you do this every time. things dont work out (this was foreseeable) and suddenly, the girl in question is all red flags. ive done it myself, its a temporary bandaid on a broken heart and misses the lessons. 

but it also raises two critical points and id encourage you to engage the exercise steelwork raised:

1. why rush into something, invest so much, and put your heart on the line with a person you have so many objections to, or even one you just dont click with?

2. members have repeatedly encouraged you to consider (inventory) what you liked about this girl. to approach dating from that perspective rather than whether youre doing everything "right" and passing all her "tests".

what do you think?

[CryWolf]

The only thing id like to say is that, do not feel you did the wrong thing by showing your true colours ie, being yourself (what else can you be?)

I did this because I didnt want to do the whole push/pull with this girl. When i say we have so many values, goals, similarities in common its crazy. I felt like I could be myself around her, and whenever I held back or had to fabricate I ended up getting upset at myself for not showing her who I really am.

I knew she wasnt ready for anything serious, and i continuously let her know im not in a rush. I just wanted her to know what my intentions are and im not a player like she asked if I am. she seemed nervous a lot of times. one moment shes very open with body language and words, then she's not and pulls away. Texting goes hot and cold. I felt if I showed her who I am, without games it would allow her to be more open being around me.

She continuously values me, and then takes it back a bit by comparing me to other guys. its either "youre different" or "youre similar"... and having this "idc" attitude about everything. Im not saying I know her or can read her but after a while I felt she put on this huge front about how she never had her heartbroken, and shes so cold and heartless like she told me since day 1.

when I tease her, she become insecure and asks "is that what you really think?" and i reassure her saying "no i was just teasing you, did i offend you?" she would say "no i dont get offended"...

I never told her directly I liked her, but i told her "i dont really plan out like this unless like someone i like" and she even was appreciate of me planning.

we talked about future plans, double dates, etc. then at the end of the night we both were quiet. im not sure if it was because weed/wine played a role in this or not. maybe i am being anxious and overthinking it like i did the first date. we both said how we are in relationships, and how we both are clingy. how she is the most loyal person in a relationship. but later on she says how everything ends when talking about relationships.

but yes, timing is terrible right now. she is leaving and probably never coming back. she was in two back to back relationships so now she wants freedom. I came at the wrong time.

I am trying not to blame myself. but its hard.

but it also raises two critical points and id encourage you to engage the exercise steelwork raised:

1. why rush into something, invest so much, and put your heart on the line with a person you have so many objections to, or even one you just dont click with?

2. members have repeatedly encouraged you to consider (inventory) what you liked about this girl. to approach dating from that perspective rather than whether youre doing everything "right" and passing all her "tests".

what do you think?

I honestly dont know how to answer this right now. I was so obsessed with her liking me, that i never ask myself why should i like her? i dont know. :/

[once removed]

I honestly dont know how to answer this right now. I was so obsessed with her liking me, that i never ask myself why should i like her? i dont know. :/

you dont have to answer it right now. by all means, right now it would probably be a terrible exercise. the point is that its a stronger and more confident (but most of all more successful) approach to dating when you meet someone. things you dont like are worth evaluating too, not necessarily hyper vigilant about, but mindful.

for example, lots of twenty somethings experiment with drugs. thats, if not normal, pretty common. i dont know that somebody getting high on a date is necessarily a winner long term, though. you raised it early on. it doesnt sound like its something you were comfortable with. if we are more focused with someone liking us, we lose sight of those things.

but yes, timing is terrible right now. she is leaving and probably never coming back. she was in two back to back relationships so now she wants freedom. I came at the wrong time.

it would drive me nuts with a girl i was crazy about. its a gut puncher.

i dont know that i look at it as you coming at the wrong time. you showed her a good time. you had a good time. you impressed her with the chivalry. you didnt chase her away. all in all, you did pretty well, things went pretty well.

it seems to me, that sort of light, low or non commitment and having fun is precisely the way to go. this whole experience tells me that there may be some more experience to be gained, some lessons to learn, some more practice to be had before a long term, serious, committed relationship.

regardless, having things end sucks CryWolf. i say that as someone with higher than average abandonment fears. the silver lining, if there is one, is that like anything, it gets easier as we do more of it. there will be many more like this CryWolf, some better, some worse.