My one best line re: breaking news I'm in counseling. Need advice

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I promised my MC I'd ask you all for assistance with deciding one good line to use to my H to explain "what's up". As near as I can tell he is currently aware on some level that "something's up" with me, but doesn't know what. Typically, in a confrontation that has any kind of emotional or accusatory content, I can expect to get one line out before a walkout or angry reaction. So I need you to help me decide what that one line should be for the best anticipated results. I can't waste it on "We need to talk", though it is a classic I know!

Here are some starter possibilities:

I'm seeing a marriage counsellor to talk about our marriage. Would you like to see a marriage counsellor together or as well?

I'm seeing a therapist to talk about my issues / the issues in our marriage / the relationships in our family / things. Have you ever thought about seeing a therapist?

I think you have some issues with anger, and you should see a therapist.

I think you might have a personality disorder, and you should see a therapist. << I know probably not this one

I think there are some problems in our marriage that we need to work through / that mean we should think about a separation / that might mean we can get an annulment.

You seem more distant recently. Are you still interested in being married to me? / Why do you want to still be married to me?

I'm concerned that we don't communicate well and don't solve problems well, and D is about to be a teenager and will soon have new and interesting problems. What's a way forward here?

I need you to stop criticizing me in front of D, I think that is the reason why she talks to me disrespectfully. << limited specific boundary-setting attempt as a test case

I need you to stop talking to me like I'm stupid / malicious towards you / the worst person in the world / a piece of [redacted]. << more general boundary-setting attempt - verbal only

I need you to stop acting towards me like you hate me / you're eight years old / I'm responsible for making you happy and fixing your problems. << more general boundary-setting attempt - all behaviors

All rewording and other line suggestions are welcome. Let's not worry too much for now about assessing what exactly I want and how true or relatively important each of these is. I'm looking for something to use in an emergency situation (discovery of one or more of my investigating activities, not necessarily of the BPD theory but possibly so), and something to use in the event of a confrontation I initiate. Those could be the same line or different ones.

TIA!
BetterLanes x

[BetterLanes]

I promised my MC I'd ask you all for assistance with deciding one good line to use to my H to explain "what's up". As near as I can tell he is currently aware on some level that "something's up" with me, but doesn't know what. Typically, in a confrontation that has any kind of emotional or accusatory content, I can expect to get one line out before a walkout or angry reaction. So I need you to help me decide what that one line should be for the best anticipated results. I can't waste it on "We need to talk", though it is a classic I know!

Here are some starter possibilities:

I'm seeing a marriage counsellor to talk about our marriage. Would you like to see a marriage counsellor together or as well?

I'm seeing a therapist to talk about my issues / the issues in our marriage / the relationships in our family / things. Have you ever thought about seeing a therapist?

I think you have some issues with anger, and you should see a therapist.

I think you might have a personality disorder, and you should see a therapist. << I know probably not this one

I think there are some problems in our marriage that we need to work through / that mean we should think about a separation / that might mean we can get an annulment.

You seem more distant recently. Are you still interested in being married to me? / Why do you want to still be married to me?

I'm concerned that we don't communicate well and don't solve problems well, and D is about to be a teenager and will soon have new and interesting problems. What's a way forward here?

I need you to stop criticizing me in front of D, I think that is the reason why she talks to me disrespectfully. << limited specific boundary-setting attempt as a test case

I need you to stop talking to me like I'm stupid / malicious towards you / the worst person in the world / a piece of [redacted]. << more general boundary-setting attempt - verbal only

I need you to stop acting towards me like you hate me / you're eight years old / I'm responsible for making you happy and fixing your problems. << more general boundary-setting attempt - all behaviors

All rewording and other line suggestions are welcome. Let's not worry too much for now about assessing what exactly I want and how true or relatively important each of these is. I'm looking for something to use in an emergency situation (discovery of one or more of my investigating activities, not necessarily of the BPD theory but possibly so), and something to use in the event of a confrontation I initiate. Those could be the same line or different ones.

TIA!
BetterLanes x

[Ltahoe]

I found sometimes what works if I’m approaching an ify subject for my wife I’ve come to acknowledge the way she might react first.

“So I’m not saying this to blame anyone or to make you mad but I’m seeing a marriage counselor”

Don’t bring up personality disorder and if your counselor is ok with counseling both of you and setting up personality evaluations say.

“Our marriage counselor thinks it would be beneficial for us to get personality evaluations”

“Our” might spark an interest.

Reverse psych, if could you get roles to reverse temporarily?could you be the one that walks out and would H give chase. Maybe walk out for an unknown reason or a time really out of ordinary context for you guys, where he’ll really be like What the heck just happened. If you do it at a time that he offends you he’ll think he knows why you walked out anyways and maybe not care or feel too uncomfortable to approach you. 

[formflier]

Back to the drawing boards... .start out with that you have some important things to share and want to make sure he is available to listen.

No demands... .just ask.  Do not get drawn into why do you ask (and then debate that he storms out)... .ask if he is ready to listen.  Wait for him to affirmatively say yes.  Obviously you would have made sure this is a good time for you.

Then... .I would suggest that you inform him of what you are doing... (yes... .we'll work on the wording) and that "it would mean a lot to me" if you would come give my counselor your perspective.

Do not get drawn into "are you asking me to go to counseling"... .or "do I need to go to counseling". 

Make this about you and what you are doing for you.

Yes... we'll practice with you how to "parry" his potential comebacks

Thoughts?

FF

[ILuvABorderline]

I misght would start by simply saying you've decided to see a counselor to help you sift through some personal issues. Maybe give a legit example of something that doesn't directly pertain to him. Leave it at that and allow him to ask any questions.

[formflier]

I misght would start by simply saying you've decided to see a counselor to help you sift through some personal issues. Maybe give a legit example of something that doesn't directly pertain to him. Leave it at that and allow him to ask any questions.

I would stay away from any JADE (giving examples).  I would have something generic ready to say when he asks "why?"... which is most likely will.

Something like... "I reached a point in my life where I wanted to better understand and improve my relationship skills." 

I would not recommend linking it to any "actual events" that he can argue against.

FF

[Notwendy]

My 12 step codependency counselor gave me good advice: do not use the word “you”. Stay with speaking from my own perspective. You can ask him to go but he has the choice to go or not. Trying to explain or coerce may not be effective .

“ I have been seeing a counselor to help me with my concerns about our relationship. I would like things to be better between us and for us to go together. Is that possible ?”

He may say no or yes or think about it. Don’t react. If he says no “I’m sorry to hear that. I’m going to continue seeing her.

I once got my H to see a counselor I was seeing. He walked out of the session refusing to return. I asked why and he said he felt that the counselor and I were ganging up on him. We weren’t but that didn’t matter to him- he felt we were.

It was years later that he agreed again but I learned from that. It had to be a counselor I had not talked to - so he could be sure I didn’t talk about him prior to the session. I also had him help pick the counselor so he would not feel the odds were stacked against him. The counselor was wise. She did not point the finger at him or say he had a problem . She labeled me - not him. ( co dependent ) then she spoke to both of us by addressing me. This way he wasn’t triggered - he heard what she had to say. She was wise to know he would have walked out otherwise. I was angry at first- it didn’t seem fair that I had the problem but she was able to form a therapeutic bond with him and address some of his behavior later.

You might want to discuss these ideas with your MC and have her suggest some names of councelors your H can choose from. It may be better to avoid labeling him right away.

[formflier]

“ I have been seeing a counselor to help me with my concerns about our relationship. I would like things to be better between us and for us to go together. Is that possible ?”

 

That's solid.  I might suggest dropping "concerns"... .however, it is "honest" that you are concerned. 

I would suggest "

"I have been seeing a counselor to understand my part of our relationship and improve my relationship skills.  I would like things to be better between us and for us to go together.  Is that possible?"

You know your husband best.  How do you think he would react to some of these ways of asking?

FF

[BetterLanes]

Thanks everyone! To clarify re. Notwendy's advice about shared and separate counsellors (thanks for that), the MC is a solo phone appointment in the daytime with a counsellor at a non-local centre, which we wouldn't be able to convert to a joint thing anyway. So the proposal would have to be just to get a Relate appointment with someone else. The phone appointment came through pretty quickly, I don't know how long one has to wait for a joint appointment.

Ltahoe, walking out myself or any other kind of unusual behavior or deliberate non-performance of normal duties would certainly get a reaction. It's a good suggestion. But I think there would be a significant risk to property in that situation, and I need to be available for my daughter.  I never chase him, there's no point, and he might not even think to chase me.

I think we are arriving at a good line here to calm things down in an emergency situation (discovery of an activity) and also have some effect that leads to some sort of change (his agreement or refusal to attend counselling, or possibly overreaction to the idea). It provides a viable and relatively unthreatening explanation for my recent behaviors and expenditure, it doesn't have any explicit suggestion that he has any problems to address, and it has an implicit suggestion that I want the relationship to continue and want counselling for this purpose. It is a very safe line. If using this line does overtop his emotional resilience for more than a brief period of time I have an idea of the potential effect of the more nuclear options on my original list.

I also need to clarify that the part of the thread title " re: breaking news I'm in counseling. Need advice" was added by an admin, I am guessing maybe for safety reasons, or due to the rule on this board of not telling anyone to stay or leave, or to make it less like clickbait I don't mind, but it does narrow the scope of the options. I suppose my concern is that if my one line focuses on the counseling and implies I want to continue investing in the relationship, I may just be signing up for more months or years of emotional stress and inauthenticity and dishonesty, and starting on the path of trying to acknowledge and set boundaries for and change the relationship issues and behaviors one by one. To me it seems this is the hard road, and I don't know what the results at the end would actually be like. I don't know if it is fair to either of us to set us off down this road with him missing significant information (especially if the counselling and assessment just turns into material for an annulment, he'd be entitled to feel tricked in that situation). I've been trying to establish whether there is actually a religious requirement for us to choose this hard road (in which case I would just have to go ahead and do that) and I am at the point where I don't think there is that requirement. One of the lower down options on my list would maybe get us faster to this level of addressing the relationship in a way that gives us both a fair choice.

I guess what I need to do is finish out my pre-summer sessions with the MC (2) and the T (1) and see what are their "closing remarks", and also try to get a long discussion with a priest ASAP for a spiritual assessment of the state of the marriage and what obligations I have. Pending that, is there anything on my list of options that you all think would likely have bad results with a pwBPD, and why?

BetterLanes x

[Notwendy]

This clarifies it- I thought you were attempting joint marital counseling.

Are you trying to get him to counseling? I would find that difficult. Unless someone is motivated to do counseling, it is very difficult to recommend it to them. If he doesn't know that you are in counseling, the statement" I am seeing a counselor to help me with concerns about our relationship. Have you any interest in seeing one too?" ( here the "you" word is OK- it isn't a blame or accusation).

One possible pitfall is him asking " what concerns do you have?" Don't go there. It's a lead to a circular argument blaming you for the concerns. I think if the two of you are at the verge of splitting, then he would know you have concerns. Say something - again without the "you" word. " I'm trying to learn better communication skills" and be done with it. Don't go further.

As to the stay or leave decision. We don't tell people what to do- but I think it is fair to say that in "conflicted" people are weighing both options. One of my H's reasons for avoiding MC is that he feared the MC would lead us to divorce. Maybe he feared if we did get into our issues, she'd push in that direction. I don't know exactly, but he was not up for being seen as the bad guy in the relationship. Our MC addressed this at the beginning- that her first goal was to keep a couple together and if that was not possible, the process of MC would be helpful during a divorce. The process of divorce requires communication skills, and so learning better ones would be useful there as well. In addition, we have children and would be required to communicate about them as well. So MC wasn't about leading us in either direction but to facilitate communication through whatever we decided.

We were not considering divorce when we consulted an MC. If someone is, then they would need to consider if joint counseling would help or not. You have clarified that joint counseling isn't an option. I think it is a good decision for anyone with marital difficulties to see a personal counselor. MC is variably effective with pwBPD. I would say that I put more time and effort into the personal changes ( working on co-dependency ) but he also didn't want to split up and was motivated to at least show up even if he didn't like the idea. It is up to your H to decide if he is interested in counseling, but if he isn't motivated himself, it would probably be a waste of time and money to push the idea.

[formflier]

Better Lanes,


Hey, I'm coming at this from a Baptist perspective, which I assume on these issues is roughly the same as Catholic.  That being said, if something seems off... please bring it up or list it out as a point to clarify.

My purpose here is not to argue with you... .but to clarify points that YOU (and I hope your hubby) would want to clarify as you figure out the future of your relationship.

So... clarity... I'm not trying to give you a run or stay message, yet I am saying from the Christian perspective, how you go about this process of staying or leaving... matters greatly.

I certainly think you should approach your husband about counseling together, first from the perspective of him helping you be a better you.  No admission of "fault" on your part... .you are just doing what you can do to be the best BL.

How does this relate to Christianity?  I hope you would agree Christians are "supposed to" edify each other.  More specifically, husbands and wives are supposed to edify each other and most specifically husbands are supposed to "spiritually lead" their wives.  (those that are into this type of thing understand I'm being very broad here and avoiding "trigger words" such as "submit".

The reason you start here is it is less threatening to him (think about Notwendy's husbands perspective) and you need to specifically understand the "spiritual nature" of your husband and his contribution (or lack thereof) to the marriage.

Said another way:  If you husband is not will to participate in anyway in any process that you desire to do to become a better Catholic wife... .you need to know that.

If he participates... .call it good... .go with the process... .cross that bridge when you get there.


Once you know that... .and assuming he refuses to participate... .then you need to be very specific about sin behavior you see on his part, especially as it relates to marriage.  Then evaluate if he is addressing it... or not.

Again... if he starts to address it... cross that bridge then.

If he refuses... .take all of this into account as you consider your options.

I have to imagine that any "annulment" process would want to know that there had been a "Biblical approach" to confronting sin and a clear rejection of God's word by your husband.

I see your job as NOT to change your husband, that is the Holy Spirit's job.  It is your job to shine the light and "point" your husband to the Holy Spirit.  Then get out of the way and watch.

At this point I'll hush and leave you with a question.  Any of this sound "out of line" with Catholic thought and teaching?

FF

[BetterLanes]

Thanks Notwendy and Formflier! That's all very helpful.

Notwendy, yes I would fall into the "conflicted" category rather than the "having decided to tolerate" category. Joint counselling would be a possibility to set up, but it would be a different process and counsellor to what I'm doing currently. The Relate counsellor explained to me that they have an initial consultation session with the couple to establish if joint counselling is the right way to go, and if not they will offer what she calls "separate work", which is what I started out with. She and I decided in our call just now that I've gone about as far as I can in that without knowing what my H actually thinks or wants about the matter. We have one more call next week, and after that the most likely next step would be to suggest joint counselling or at least a consultation to my H. But as you say I don't want to push it if he is not motivated.

Formflier, yes it is a very similar perspective, and you didn't say anything out of line with Catholic teaching. The website I read said whoever you talk to about a Catholic separation or split will ask you first if you attempted marriage counselling. You are right there is a spiritual and Christian dimension to how the process needs to be done, and I think that's the other reason why I've gotten about as far as I can with the MC alone. She was very helpful today in asking what is it I fear about suggesting counselling to my H, and suggesting how to handle the possible critical (blaming) and emotional collapse reactions (remember he is an adult basically and needs to be allowed to choose to participate as an adult in the process), and assessing the risk of any more extreme reactions. She knows she can't help with the faith-based decision making except by pointing out where it's influencing me. I need to check that out with a priest or other faith professional in an extended non-confessional setting and clarify my thinking around this. At the moment I think what I have is an incorrect mash-up of basically your Baptist theology (from most of my reading materials) and my fairly ignorant understanding of Catholic church theology. My H will likely be wanting to operate from the latter. I need to get very clear on what is what.

BetterLanes x

[formflier]

In the Baptist world there is a wide spectrum of advice from preachers.  On the conservative side many like to "judge" a situation and on the liberal side many like to "give guidance".

While I'm a conservative guy in my (usually literal) reading of scripture, when it comes to advice I try to be liberal, because ultimately it's best if YOU connect the dots... .vice have those dots forced on you.

And... .any plain reading of scripture (in my opinion) does not "prohibit" divorce.  Obviously, God is not a "fan" of it.  Obviously marriage is a big deal. 

I say this in hopes that you have a "moderate" priest that can guide you through scripture and other materials... .vice someone that "tells" you and expects you to "push a button" an believe it, even though you don't understand it.

OK... .(FF religious judgment alert... take a deep breath).  I get the sense that you don't have detailed knowledge of "catholic policy" based on some of your last post.  That's OK.  Perhaps you don't understand the protestant/catholic split from years ago.  I certainly don't want to get into a wide ranging discussion about that.

Specifically to your situation.  Part of the "split" was over whether or not a priest "was required" to interpret scripture.  Protestants would generally say "no" that the Bible was meant to be read and understood by regular people.  Catholics (at the time anyway) tended to say that it was such a big deal "only a priest could truly understand" and "the masses" needed to obey the priests interpretation.

My understanding is that Catholics have moderated on this position over the years. 

So, back to my point for you.  My hope and prayer is that you can read the Bible and texts and decide for yourself what they say, because ultimately it is YOU that is responsible for your life and your spiritual journey.

Thoughts?

FF

[Cat Familiar]

I suggested that my husband and I see a marriage counselor when our relationship began breaking down. This was before I knew that he had BPD. He was absolutely positive that my only purpose was to begin heading toward divorce. I tried to reassure him that I wanted to work on my own issues that led to conflict, but he didn't believe me.

He reluctantly participated, but after a short time, began to feel that the psychologist and I were "ganging up on him" and that I just wanted to "beat him up" at every session.

What did happen was that I finally had an opportunity to air my feelings and grievances without him interrupting or steamrolling me. To him, this must have felt like being "beaten up" because he had to listen and respond to the therapist's questions about what I had said. In doing so, I'm sure it was painful because he had to confront his inner shame that he tries to keep so well hidden--and then he had a witness to that (the T) in addition to me.

All in all, over a year of therapy didn't help our marriage significantly, but it did improve our communication somewhat.

When things started getting worse again in our relationship a few years ago, and by worse--what I'm talking about is mild in comparison to some of the stories here (as well as my previous marriage to a BPD husband)--I began seeing the same psychologist for individual therapy. She disclosed to me that my husband has a personality disorder (she refused to identify which one as she believes there's a tremendous overlap) but around the same time I began participating here and I see that he manifests lots of BPD traits as well as some NPD ones.

Rather than tell him I was doing therapy because his drinking and occasional out of control behavior was driving me crazy (absolute unvarnished truth), I told him that I see my psychologist because of lingering issues from my childhood with a BPD mother (also true, but not the primary reason).

It has been incredibly helpful for me to have an outside professional observer to guide me to healthier behaviors and realize what's in my control and what isn't. For the most part, my husband and I get along really well now, have few conflicts and I can see when he's starting to dysregulate and remove myself gracefully so I no longer participate in the crazy. Now I only see my P every other month to check in and she keeps trying to "fire" me but I like having an hour every so often to download some minor issues without having to burden my friends with relationship talk. I probably will scale back my appointments soon to quarterly. It's nice having someone who has seen the history of our relationship and who can validate my growth and maturity as a partner. I didn't get that with my parents--so it fulfills a need to be seen that I never had as a child.

Though we don't have the close romantic relationship that I thought I had signed up for, things are still good, just different than I thought.

[formflier]

I'm in a similar situation to Cat Familiar.

I see a psychologist weekly.  Yet, I don't have a PD.  I do have PTSD, though by and large it's under control.

The "analogy" I use for my PTSD is that it's like having a bum knee.  I can do life and most things, but it's smart in many situations to use a knee brace, rather than assuming the knee will work fine.

Basically... .I know situations that are stressful and I'm deliberate about the way I handle them.

My wife believes all answers can be found in a Bible study, via prayer or going to "biblical counseling".  She actually "prays for me" to stop seeing any secular provider.  Including MDs.

I simply choose not to debate it.

My Psychologist spent enough time with my wife to understand her issues and very similarly said she had a lot of behaviors of a PD.  My P is not big on "diagnosing" or "labeling".

Does it really matter if paranoid behavior is from a person that is diagnosed as PPD or not?

I get it... .for the extreme cases (where people need to be hospitalized)... it may.  And certainly, like Cat Familiar my spouse is very high functioning and is successful in many areas of life.

FF

[BetterLanes]

Thanks very much Formflier and CatFamiliar for those helpful posts! I am into the BL weekend safety shutdown period now but will post a reply as soon as I'm able, including an explanation of why I feel like I need to talk to a priest about this, which I am currently thinking through.

This board is so helpful in processing my thoughts! Thank you all very much.

BetterLanes x

[Notwendy]

Sometimes when I read your posts Cat- about the things your H says - I think we could be married to the same person!

My H was convinced MC would lead us to divorce and also that the first counselor and I were hanging up on him. To me it felt like MC #2 was colluding with my H when she pointed at me. But she was wise to do that.

My H assumes that I went to counseling and 12 step codependency groups because of my FOO issues - after all I must be the one with the problem. He doesn’t think he needs to do that and his family is just fine  . 

[Cat Familiar]

Hey Notwendy,
I find the similarities remarkable! And the patterns repeat themselves in such a consistent way!

The more I understand, the more I can predict the response to my communication with him and then I’ve got the responsibility of bringing my best self to the interaction, rather than being sloppy and letting my feelings take the wheel.

If you haven’t seen these videos about high functioning pwBPD, it’s worth a watch. It’s more about therapeutic strategies, but what I find intriguing is how he identifies repeating patterns.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=302605

[Notwendy]

This man is so spot on! I also see where his approach would not be effective with my mother- she’s at the severe end of the spectrum. This confused me for a while since she set the example of BPD for me. I think my H and yours would mostly evade diagnosis as they mostly have traits that disrupt intimate relationships but not others.

That therapist has the thinking right! It is sad to think so much unhappiness in the early part of my marriage could have been avoided if I only understood it. Everything rolls down that rabbit hole of “unlovable and rejected”. The phone example is classic. If I’m driving and my phone is in my purse and he calls - I don’t pick it up - because  I’m driving. By the time I do - I’ve rejected him, ignored him ... .and down the rabbit hole.

Our MC worked a lot on benign interpretation - mainly with me but I think she was indirectly helping him as well. Also the no processing at bedtime idea. She also didn’t confront him about anything until she had won his trust. They’d do a lot of small talk - she might ask his opinion about something. I used to wonder why are we paying to chit chat but she knew what she was doing. Didn’t mention any labels.

Thanks for these videos !

[Notwendy]

Good heavens. Just planned a trip with oldest child to a family event on my side of the family.  I know H would have no interest in . So I asked him if he was ok with it . Reply : “so- I’m not invited”.

Yes he knows he’s invited and doesn’t want to go. So instead of “sure have fun “ it’s that.

Yes I know it’s a small thing. He’s taken trips with the kids to see his family and I stay home — and I’m thrilled! Got enough crazy on my side ! It’s just frustrating that it seems like everything is seen as “rejection”. What a sad way to think about things.

[Cat Familiar]

Everything rolls down that rabbit hole of “unlovable and rejected”. The phone example is classic. If I’m driving and my phone is in my purse and he calls - I don’t pick it up - because  I’m driving. By the time I do - I’ve rejected him, ignored him ... .and down the rabbit hole.

Yes, it's so difficult to believe that they can be so thin-skinned and worried about rejection, yet at the same time, be so accomplished in their professional lives! It's taken me so long to actually understand that, and continues to catch me by surprise.

A recent example: there's a small family run restaurant with a fabulous chef, the son of the owner, who has impeccable culinary training. He's starting a new prix fixe menu to debut tastings of items he might put as regulars on his seasonal rotating menu. Some of us who are regular customers are invited to try these limited offerings, which he's doing on weekend nights, in addition to his regular menu.

So we signed up for the first weekend and Saturday afternoon the owner called us to tell us that there wasn't room to seat us that night, but we could come in for the regular menu. My husband and I just happened to both answer the phone and I was surprised how cold and rude my husband was when hearing this. I said we'd be happy to come anyway and looked forward to trying the special dinner next time. A few hours later, my husband cancelled our reservation and decided to eat somewhere else that evening.

We've had nothing but nice feelings with the people who run this restaurant. They even reached out to us when my husband had his recent surgery and wanted to bring us food (free of charge). Instead, I drove to the restaurant, had a meal there and ordered a to-go meal for my H and when I tried to pay, the owner had comped the entire bill.

So, to my surprise, my husband had quite a different experience a few days ago when we returned for dinner. The owner was chatting with us for a while after he seated us. To me, everything was normal. I find out today that my husband thought he was totally being ignored and that this man was completely focusing upon me and was "angry" with him. I had absolutely no inkling of that whatsoever. The owner was talking about possibly having to get back surgery and I remember mentioning how much my far infrared heating pad helps my chronic shoulder pain.

Tonight we're going there for the special menu and my husband is worried that he's persona non grata there. Wow! It's hard to imagine how much internal pain and self-preoccupation a conclusion like this requires. People cancel reservations all the time. It's no big deal in the restaurant industry, I know from personal experience--as long as they don't do it last minute.

[Cat Familiar]

Good heavens. Just planned a trip with oldest child to a family event on my side of the family.  I know H would have no interest in . So I asked him if he was ok with it . Reply : “so- I’m not invited”.

Yes he knows he’s invited and doesn’t want to go. So instead of “sure have fun “ it’s that.

I've started to invite my husband to things I know he'd be bored silly with, knowing he'll decline. I certainly have had the same experience, Notwendy, that he thinks he's not invited, not wanted, etc.

Is there any way you can invite him now? (Too late for the engraved invitation with double envelopes.  )

[Notwendy]

I did and he said I’m over reacting.

He’s a great guy most of the time but I can’t fix this. There are plenty of other “reasons” to feel rejected over even if he did want to come.

The restaurant example is typical. People can do many acts of kindness but one perceived slight and it’s down the rabbit hole ...

The incident that made me see this clearly was when we were visiting his family and a big storm was about to hit the area. His family urged us to leave early. I urged him too. It was clear to me that everybody did this because they were concerned for our safety on the road. His experience was that they were ganging up on him by pushing the topic and that I was being rude by wanting to leave.

So back to the counseling topic - benign interpretation work is really useful- it was one of the best parts of MC that we did . I  can see where he can sometimes do this - but to really get this probably takes a lot of individual work with a T.

[Cat Familiar]

People can do many acts of kindness but one perceived slight and it’s down the rabbit hole ...

An ounce of invalidation can outweigh a pound of validation!

[Notwendy]

Yes! Which makes it tough- it’s so easy to unintentionally provide that ounce .

[Cat Familiar]

Went to the special tasting menu tonight and all was good. It was as though he'd forgotten the "slight."

That's something I'm just now beginning to understand--that all is momentary and can easily be forgotten when he's feeling good.

For me, if it's a big deal, then I've got to get resolution somehow, but apparently with pwBPD if they're not feeling the issue in the moment, then it can easily be forgotten.

Sorry for the hijack, BetterLanes . Come back when your weekend safety shutdown time is over. Good plan! 

[formflier]

You guys hijacked... I'll drive the getaway car... .!


My wife and I were having one of our more pleasant relationship conversations a few days ago (they do happen... from time to time)

The subject was... ."do you remember what it was like when you were figuring out if you wanted to marry me?" (she brought it up)

Anyway... .after a while she darkened a bit... .and said that "you know how you remember everything?  Well... I don't.  I remember how I felt.

I gave her a squeeze and kept up the snuggle. 

I would likely add that how she feels at the moment, greatly influences how she "remembers" her feelings from long ago.

I'm one of those guys that will remember the color shirt she was wearing and other "details" of "big evenings".

FF

[Notwendy]

I think it's a useful hijack. It's been a frustration to me that- what I say can be heard in a completely different way by my H. I think people speak with the assumption that a spouse understands them.  I discussed him coming on the trip and he misinterpreted what I said as excluding him.  Then there was the longer conversation to clear up that misconception, and then, trip planning went off on a  tangent with him in lawyer mode ( he isn't one but he'd be a good one) proving that I said what he thought I said ( when I didn't mean any of it).

You are correct Cat, that it is mostly in the moment, and then it is over for them. It's us who are left with the frustration of what we thought would be a straightforward conversation and it got convoluted.

One huge benefit about the MC was to have a "translator" when we discussed things.

With BPD and traits on a spectrum, it affects the most intimate relationships the most. The therapist in the videos above describes the milder trait end as affecting only intimate relationships. I think this then places us in the position to be the person they play out their fears of rejection in addition to seeking the love they want. Then it becomes a self fulfilling prophesy when they find rejection in us whether we mean it or not. It is good to understand it, and also frustrating to see it when it happens. But it is better than when I was not aware of it and it seemed he would get upset with me for no reason and I had no idea why. The MC was not an intimate partner, so she could repeat what I said and he would hear it clearly from her.

[formflier]

My bachelors degree is in communications.  I spent most of my Navy career in the "command and control" arena, making sure thousands of Sailors were communicating and understanding each other... .and that they understood the "commanders intent".

All of the professionals (me included) in the communications field recommend that once a message is received, that there be some kind of feedback from the "receiver"  (hearer) to the "sender" which says "this is what I heard... .is this what you intended me to understand?"

There is an implicit understanding there that the "hearer" may not have heard correctly.

How on earth a pwBPD can't just "clarify" and move on... .still flummoxes me.

Such as... ."oh goodness babe... .I would love for you to come on the trip with me... "  How that doesn't "end it"... I simply don't understand.

I get it they "feel this and that"... .I simply don't get how "reality" can be cast aside so easily.


FF

[Notwendy]

It's frustrating and it's also sad. Although we both grew up in the US, it feels as if we grew up in different countries and cultures- and have a language/culture barrier, but there isn't a book or videos available to learn the language. I would learn it if I could.

I feel fortunate to be dealing with traits and not the severity that I see with my mother. However these traits/tendencies to see rejection when it isn't there have created havoc in our relationship, especially when I didn't understand what was going on. As a new bride, I wanted to please him. There was plenty of love and affection on my part for him, but he couldn't see it, and so he rejected me and punished me in return with the ST and rejecting me physically. It was devastating to me. Yet, in his own pain from the imaginary slights, he couldn't see that I loved him or how much his behavior hurt me. He felt quite justified in doing what he was doing because he (falsely) believed I was rejecting him. To me, it appeared to come out of the blue. I had no idea why. It was also puzzling to see he was able to be wonderful to everyone else but me. It was only with his intimate partner that these dynamics happened.

It's interesting FF that you have such memories like what someone was wearing. My H is amnesic about the early years of our marriage. He's bewildered that I have such sad memories of them and he does not. I think it was because when he is angry, he was in the moment, and once the moment was over, it was gone for him but not for me, and he was angry much of the time over the imagined slights and rejections he felt.

One event that I remember is that we were staying in a hotel. He went out of the room for coffee and I was getting dressed. I heard someone at the door and thought it might be housekeeping, so as it opened I ran into the bathroom to cover up. He saw that as he entered the room, I ran away into the bathroom, When I realized it was him I said I was getting dressed. What he thought happened was that I was avoiding him and not wanting him to "see" me without clothes on- which then triggered sexual rejection. All because I couldn't see who was walking in the room. He didn't speak to me for hours after that, and I had no clue why.

[formflier]

One event that I remember is that we were staying in a hotel. He went out of the room for coffee and I was getting dressed. I heard someone at the door and thought it might be housekeeping, so as it opened I ran into the bathroom to cover up. He saw that as he entered the room, I ran away into the bathroom, When I realized it was him I said I was getting dressed. What he thought happened was that I was avoiding him and not wanting him to "see" me without clothes on- which then triggered sexual rejection. All because I couldn't see who was walking in the room. He didn't speak to me for hours after that, and I had no clue why.

Notwendy

Your entire post is an accurate summation of the difficulties in communication that I've faced in my r/s.  Ton's of stuff like what you said above.

Now that my P has helped me understand how to "deal with them" better... .unsurprisingly... the moments pass without triggering me or my wife.

For instance... .a couple nights ago I take my wife and oldest daughter (D22) to steak and shake for a quick bite and time "with the older girls".


Let's just say FF and his wife can produce some good looking offspring.  My wife is gorgeous... literally a beauty queen from pageants and stuff.

So... .at some point I used a line about taking the sisters out... .and how good they looked together.  True... .it is a stretch... .but could be believable.  

It had the intended effect.  My wife ate it up... .lets just say we had a good time after we got home.  

This morning as we were getting ready and doing things I gave her a quick squeeze and made another "sisters" comment.  

To which she says something to the effect of "I just wish I could know if you really meant it... ."

The old days this would have been an argument.  Now I just said  "Oh... FFw... .(playfully)... .gave her a swat on the butt and said something about showing her what I mean later... ."  (the key lesson my P pushes is to "stay playful", which is different than romantic... .very close to "stay friendly".  Nothing should say "wrong" or "reject" or "no".  

Times when I have to say that... .it just doesn't go well.  Then my P says be succinct and move along.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Like you, FF, I've had to swallow my first response of being shocked/hurt/flummoxed by those out of the blue comments where he doubts my love and appreciation of him.

In the past, I'd confront--like "How on earth do you think I don't care when I just did this for you [fill in the blank]." Then, it would be off to the races... .

[formflier]

"How on earth do you think I don't care when I just did this for you [fill in the blank]." 

My guess is you are an "acts of service" love language person.  That's my "highest" language.

Luckily my wife and I are both "very low" on gift giving.

My wife's highest love language is touch... .by a wide margin.  Which is likely why "morning snuggle time" works so well to help her calm... .in a time of day when her anxieties are normally really high.

Anyway... .she can "intellectually" explain to me and others that when I bring her a bagel in bed, fixed just the way she likes it... .that it's me screaming "i love you" at the top of my lungs... .

Yet... .toss emotion in the mix and she "forgets" all of that in that emotional moment.

"Reminding" her (which seems logical)... .is actually invalidating and has the effect of "pouring gas on a fire".

I certainly will acknowledge this is the way it works, yet it doesn't "make a lick of sense" to me.

Sigh... .

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Yep--I'm Acts of Service too. H is Words of Affirmation and Quality Time.

Certainly when there's a mismatch between love languages, both partners can feel "unseen".

The irony for me is that due to how ephemeral BPD moods are--his proffered statements of love seem to me BS. I'm all about consistency. 

[Notwendy]

I think this thread is really valuable because it clarifies some behaviors that were very hurtful to me, that were a result of how my H interpreted me.

My H's love language is the same as my mother's- acts of service - but beyond that- they are a form of affirmation and soothing them. My mother will go to extremes to manipulate people "serving her" because of this. When I am around her, it is a constant string of requests- do this for me dear. I don't mind helping people who need it but this goes beyond need- and I see she soothes herself by having people do things for  her.  She uses me to soothe herself.

My love language is also acts of service. In my marriage, I hoped that there would be some reciprocity, but when someone is at a deficit- they can't get to the point where their deficit is full enough to give back- they are in negative- "I don't get enough". . I didn't realize my H was at this deficit- within himself. When someone is constantly fulfilling their fear of rejection- they constantly need the affirmation of the act of service. He would also manipulate me into doing these things- something I didn't pick up on easily because it was a "normal" for me in my FOO.  I also wanted some acts of service, but asking for them would throw him into a rage. He felt it was unfair to him. I guess from his perspective of being in negative balance, it was, but what he was feeling was not the case in reality. If someone feels that way no matter what, another person can't fill that deficit, but the intimate partner is the one they look to first, and we fail them. I think this starts the devaluation process.

A difference between an act of service as love language and a form of using someone else to soothe bad feelings is when it doesn't happen. If a friend did something nice for me- like offer to pick my kids up from school so I could do something, I would think " that's nice" and then, offer to do the same for her if she needed me to. I wouldn't attach more meaning to that. Emotional soothing has meaning. If cooking dinner for him meant "I love you" then not cooking dinner meant " I don't love you- you aren't worth it- rejection". In that case it didn't matter how many times in a row I cooked dinner. If I asked "honey, I don't feel like cooking- would you mind picking up take out on the way home from work", it resulted in anger and refusal. If I asked for help with the dishes, it was seen as withholding my love for him. In anger, there isn't the incentive to give someone their  love language of any kind. I didn't feel loved and I began resenting doing things for him- but I did them to keep the peace. Not a good cycle.

About that smoking hot wife of yours FF ( I hope you saw  the movie Talladega Nights). Even though you see your wife is beautiful, she may not have had that validated in her FOO.  My BPD mother is an attractive woman, but she didn't have a secure sense of self and projected her feelings by being critical of how I looked. Looking back at pictures, I was a cute kid, but not in her projections.  These messages from childhood combined with my H's lack of "love language" for me made it hard to believe him when he says he thinks I'm attractive. Not all baggage we bring into the relationship is due to the person having BPD. We brought some of ours into the marriage too. Who knows what messages your wife received in her FOO.

[formflier]

Well... .I certainly wasn't there to listen directly when my wife was growing up... .but I can reasonably piece some things together

I think when people got fixed up for Sunday... .or made an effort to "clean up" there was praise.  I think those times were few and far between.  I would doubt if it went over the top... ever. 

As they got older, the women seemed to start talking about whoever was NOT there in a negative way.  A$$ is getting flabby, something sagging, can you believe she wore that, everyone knows she is coloring her hair... .who is she kidding (you guys get the picture)

I think the message was understood, while we will rarely say nasty things to your face, or we will make sure it's "hidden" behind "constructive criticism"... .you can bet that when you are not around, every little bit of you will be raked over the coals...

Uggg... .

I'm sure that my wife was praised for the beauty pageants, and the pictures were on display.  There is something subtle about only praising when you are in a pageant, with a healthy dose of... ."if I hadn't been on you so hard about things you wouldn't have looked as good as you did"

Then... .once it was obvious my wife was going to be the best looking one of the bunch, and the only one to graduate college (her Mom did graduate later in life... 10 years or so after my wife graduated)... .and then my wife started having all those kids.  Well, all the "nasty women" (again my wife is "nasty light" would kinda sniff and wonder "who does the think she is"... .or "she thinks she is better that us... "

    uggg

Anyway... .I've kind found that a consistent dose of good comments, with rare over the top stuff is kinda the sweet spot for our relationship.

Some of it is a little juvenile... .I've been known to grab popcorn and find a perch while my wife is trying on different clothes and stuff... .but I think it has a positive impact.

Anyway... .good thread... keep it up.

See what happens in a safety standdown?  We "hijack the tread"  for safekeeping... .of course.



FF

[Red5]

Keep the high jack going, this is great !

Red5

[Notwendy]

It makes sense that your wife would have a difficult time believing you when you tell her she's attractive, since her own family would say one thing and then something else behind the person's back. They also seem very critical of how other people look. I think this would create a fear of not looking perfect when out in public. Sure, we should make an effort to look clean and decent, but not have to fret about every hair in place or perfect makeup.

A public outing for my mother is a production. She has to have her hair done, makeup, the right dress. It is understandable that if everyone is noticing how beautiful you are ( people frequently comment on how pretty she is)- you would feel there is a standard to meet. I would make the effort for a special event, and dress professionally for work, but if I'm going to the grocery store- it's jeans.

Age affects everyone's appearance. It is hard to look in the mirror and see wrinkles and gravity is going to make some things sag even if you do work out. I think it would be cruel to make mean comments about people's appearance behind their backs,  but if that is the "norm" your wife grew up with, it could make her self conscious, even if she is beautiful at her age. She's not 20 and after 8 kids, it isn't the same. Personally, I think that makes a person more beautiful, but our culture's focus on air brushed supermodels and youth doesn't support that.

[BetterLanes]

Good morning pirate crew    The thread hijack is no problem, I had actually planned to switch back to my annulments thread to reply to Formflier's last pre-weekend comment. So you are welcome to keep this one! That was very useful to read about the rejection issues and love languages. I'll watch the videos sometime soon as well.

More soon

BetterLanes x

[formflier]

Aaarrgh... .!     

Walk the plank BetterLanes... . 

FF

[BetterLanes]

*splash*

swimswimswim

*reaches sandy beach*

*cracks open coconut*

  

[formflier]

Hey BetterLanes!  Can you give us an update?

FF

[Chitchat]

We had a furious deal - breaking argument one Saturday. Or, we would have done, if she hadn't avoided it by stamping on a flowerbed I'd planted for her, coming back to stamp on it some more, and driving off.

The line I sent her was : 'I'm going to the counsellor on Monday. Do you want to come?'

She could hardly let me go alone, could she? Success!

(Unfortunately she sent me out of the room as soon as we got to the clinic, and the counsellor refused to say anything beyond that my SO would not be going any more.)

[formflier]

 
Wow Chitchat

That sounds frustrating.  What were you hoping to accomplish at the counselor?

What do you think actually got accomplished (perhaps communicated is better word)?

FF

[Harri]

This thread has been locked as it has reached the post limit.  Part 2 can be found here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329126.msg13000120#msg13000120