How to proceed carefully with uNPD/uBPD mother

[alphabeta]

Hi bpdfamily,

I wanted to share something that happened to me recently.

First, some background... .I have had LC (emailing once a week) with my mother for two months, and the last time we had an interaction, which was about three weeks ago, was when she pushed my wife and pulled her hair to come and talk to me, to see if I was okay (when I had texted her earlier that day to tell her I was).

Also, last week, her T told me that she feared that my mom could hurt me.

Therefore, I was not feeling too good about her, and was contemplating going NC for an extended period of time.

Then, a letter arrived in the mail from her, in which she apologized for being too emotionally clingy to me and not letting me live my life.  She also apologized for the impact this clinginess had on my relationship with my wife (which it did) and told me that she didn't understand this for the past 16 years, because she is stupid (which she isn't).  She said that she will never give her opinion to me again.  She said that I am a wonderful individual and only deserve the best.  She ended the letter by stating that wanted to see my son and didn't understand why she couldn't see him.

My gut instinct told me not to believe her, because a few months ago she said something similar -- she said she would never criticize my wife, which she promptly did five days later in an extreme fashion -- she said that my wife was a sociopath. 

I also do not feel good about receiving the letter from her in the first place -- in this point in my life, I need an emotional and physical break from her.

Finally, what I really need is for her to recognize that some of behavior, which includes assaulting my wife and son, threatening to kill or hit my wife, mocking or insulting my wife, threatening to abandon my son for not giving her attention, and threatening to call child services on me or commit suicide because of my insensitivity creates a rift between me (and my wife and son) and her.

The only thing I want to understand is if what she states in the letter is a sign that she is healing and if so, how can I encourage this while maintaining a distance. 

Ideally, it would be good if she were in therapy, so that I can could eventually join the session if the T (which is what her T suggested before my mom quit seeing her after she thought that the T was "on my side" sees that my mother is making progress.

It is all very confusing, and this confusion is and has been taking an emotional toll on me for the past two years.

Thanks,

[Harri]

Hi alphabeta

Also, last week, her T told me that she feared that my mom could hurt me.

Can you elaborate on this?  If her T thinks she is a threat to herself or others she is required to report it.  Is this a social worker or a psychologist?

The only thing I want to understand is if what she states in the letter is a sign that she is healing and if so, how can I encourage this while maintaining a distance.

I don't think it indicates healing given the fact that about a month ago she assaulted your wife and threatened you and your family.  I don't know what, if any diagnosis she may have, but those are seriously dysfunctional behaviors.  They are also deeply entrenched.  As such, they will not resolve in a short period of time.  They may never resolve.

I would proceed with extreme caution and maintain very hard line limits and boundaries with her. 

I think what she says in her letter indicates that she is capable of seeing outside of herself and can recognize her behaviors are not healthy... .sometimes. 

[Panda39]

Hi Alphabeta,

I don't mean to sound like the pessimistic Panda but I would be suspicious of your mother's motives here.  I don't think you setting a boundary (going low contact) and her sudden acknowledgement of her issues is a coincidence. To me this is FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt) or emotional blackmail.

Using her new found self awareness and apologies to make you... .Fear that others will see you in a bad light because she apologized and you continue to maintain your boundary (low contact), or make you feel Obligated because she apologized to drop your boundary, or make you feel Guilty for maintaining your boundary.

More about FOG... .
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=82926.0

Boundaries are for our protection... .she has been completely abusive (verbally, emotionally and physically)... .your boundary makes complete sense I would stick to it.

I've been sharing this quote lately because I really like it and because I think it fits here



To me she is trying to catch the bee (you) with honey (saying what you want to hear and believe).  These are the words coming out of her mouth, but in reality what has she done to work on herself, what has she done that is different that would cause this transformation? Nothing and what's worse she is no longer attending Therapy.

Be aware that if you maintain your boundary she may escalate things see below about an "Extinction Burst"
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=85479.0

I often use an analogy about boundaries about a little kid at the store (my blue addition is for your situation)... .

A little kid Sweetly asks mom for candy, mom says no... .kid pouts.  Little kid asks mom again for some candy, mom again says no... .kid whines.  Little kid asks mom again for some candy, mom still says no... .kid has a full on melt down screaming tantrum (Extinction Burst). What happens if mom gives in and gets the candy?  That little kid has just learned that having a screaming tantrum will get them what they want.  What happens if mom doesn't give in? The kid learns that no means no and he gives up.  This does not mean that the kid won't test the boundary again the next time they go to the store... .consistency is very important when it comes to boundaries.

How has low contact been going for you and your wife?  Has it been making things feel better? worse? just different?

Panda39

[alphabeta]

Hi alphabeta
Can you elaborate on this?  If her T thinks she is a threat to herself or others she is required to report it.  Is this a social worker or a psychologist?

The T is a licensed psychologist and told me that after the last time my mother was in therapy, she was very angry that the T had believed me -- I told the T that my mother had banged on the door to my house and pushed my wife and pulled her hair in order to get inside.  The T told me essentially to expect more of the same, because my mother told her she was quitting therapy.

I am not aware of what the laws are and if/how the T has to report this to the authorities.

I don't think it indicates healing given the fact that about a month ago she assaulted your wife and threatened you and your family.  I don't know what, if any diagnosis she may have, but those are seriously dysfunctional behaviors.  They are also deeply entrenched.  As such, they will not resolve in a short period of time.  They may never resolve.

This is a good point.  While I was in T with my mother, she told me that she has certain emotional triggers that bring her back to her childhood.  It would be great if she could work on this... .

I would proceed with extreme caution and maintain very hard line limits and boundaries with her.

 

Thanks for the feedback; my gut is telling me the same thing.

I think what she says in her letter indicates that she is capable of seeing outside of herself and can recognize her behaviors are not healthy... .sometimes.

[alphabeta]

To me she is trying to catch the bee (you) with honey (saying what you want to hear and believe).  These are the words coming out of her mouth, but in reality what has she done to work on herself, what has she done that is different that would cause this transformation? Nothing and what's worse she is no longer attending Therapy.

She says she has had time to think things over.  However, for me it's very worrisome that she wrote this letter one day after angrily quitting Therapy, because the T "believed me."

How can I verify if she has made any changes (for the better)?  Her T had suggested to me that if she saw any positive changes in my mother, she would keep me posted.  I thought that this was a good plan.

How has low contact been going for you and your wife?  Has it been making things feel better? worse? just different?

Our marriage has been much better, and I think that we are much more relaxed at home -- the presence of my mom in our lives was a source of a lot of anxiety.

[zachira]

There are people who kill others before they kill themselves, and your mother has threatened to do both. It is time to consult with qualified professionals who know about suicidal and homicidal ideation.

[Harri]

Hi alphabeta.

This is a serious situation and it is important that you think through your options carefully.  

There are a couple of options here.  You can contact her counselor and ask her if she reported your mother as a danger to herself or others.  I am no expert, but from what little I know, a report should have been made to authorities.

Another option is to call a DV hotline in your area.  I will help you locate resources for that.

There are other people on the board who have been in similar situations who have gone to the police station to talk about their situation just to get info and make them aware of the situation.  

EDIT:  cross posted with zachira

[Learning2Thrive]

  alphabeta,

I agree with all that Harri, Panda, and zachira have shared.

Most of all, I would like to say PAY ATTENTION TO THIS:

My gut instinct told me not to believe her

There is a reason your gut instinct is telling you this.  Please do not dismiss or diminish the warning. Safety first! Do everything in your ability to protect yourself and your family.

We are here for you. We understand.

  L2T

[Turkish]

She committed a crime against your wife. More than oneif she made threats.  How was your son involved?

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi alphabeta,

Thank you so much for posting and asking the questions you have. This is an extremely intense situation from what you have shared, and it's so good that you are asking others who are familiar with BPD as well as being informed by the T.

Do you think your mom is threatened by your wife because she comes first, between your relationship with you and your mom? Does your wife feel safe or what are her emotions right now? I agree with the others that you would be wise to reach out to the local authorities to at least make them aware. Other posters have also taken this step and are thankful that they have done so because it helps set up a boundary of protection and brings light to the darkness.

Please keep us informed!

 
Wools

[alphabeta]

I'd like to thank everyone who's replied to my post.  It's so nice to receive this support.

To answer Woolspinner's question (and some other bloggers questions)

Do you think your mom is threatened by your wife because she comes first, between your relationship with you and your mom? Does your wife feel safe or what are her emotions right now?

I think my mother wants everyone to treat her as though she comes first. 

Yes, I agree that she was jealous of my wife, because she was enmeshed with me, and my wife was taking time and emotional energy away from her.  Also, my wife, for a time was very depressed, because she felts as though she was worthless (by taking my mother's comments at her at face value).  After years of therapy, she found the strength to ignore my mother's comments.  Nonetheless, she was still angry at how I was catering to my mother's every needs (I was walking on eggshells) and told me that she would consider separation if this continued.

However, I noticed that she also treated my son in this way -- if he didn't give her kisses, she would get hurt/angry to the point of threatening to leave him (saying, you will never see me again... .) or even getting physical with him (throwing and pushing him).  It is important to note that he was only four years old when this first started.

I am embarrassed to say that I tolerated my mother for being the way she was with my son for over three years, and went so far as to punish him for not being affectionate with her and taking him to a child psychologist.

Ultimately, it dawned on me that he was generally scared and uncomfortable around her due to her behavior around my wife, and later with him.  Lately, he has been telling me that he either feels nervous seeing her or is angry for what she did to him.

I also see that she wanted to be the center of the world when she was around my son, and if she didn't get it, it would elicit an intense reaction from her.

I agree with the others that you would be wise to reach out to the local authorities to at least make them aware.

I will consider it.  We recently changed the locks, and on one hand I feel more secure and on the other, I feel sad that I have to do this on account of my mother.

[Turkish]

It is sad, but mother or not, your family were victims of domestic violence. 

I'm glad that you took personal inventory and are doing things to keep your family safe. 

[Panda39]

I am embarrassed to say that I tolerated my mother for being the way she was with my son for over three years, and went so far as to punish him for not being affectionate with her and taking him to a child psychologist.

Ultimately, it dawned on me that he was generally scared and uncomfortable around her due to her behavior around my wife, and later with him.  Lately, he has been telling me that he either feels nervous seeing her or is angry for what she did to him.

Don't beat yourself up here you now see the issues with your mom related to your son and have taken action. Sometimes we just don't know what we don't know.

When your son expresses these feelings, I want to encourage you to validate them.  I've pulled a link from the co-parenting board about raising "Resilient Kids" that you might find helpful in terms of supporting your son.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=182254.msg1331459#msg1331459

Panda39

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi again alphabeta,

Thank you for answering my questions. I can tell that you are thinking a lot and that you are taking some time to reflect.

I want to take a step or two back with you and consider a couple of things. I struggled with these issues myself when I first began T because to me, all that had happened in my life up until that time, well, it was normal.

This is a question I wrestled with for some time because I knew without a doubt when I started T that I had not been abused. My T didn't argue with me. He was wise and let me take my time in discovering that for myself. I had become so accustomed to the disorder around me that I only knew that and of course it was normal. So if I asked you if you were abused as a child, how would you answer? How would you define abuse? I collected answers from others for a while because I didn't really know what abuse meant.

The next question would be about abuse or violence related to your family (wife and son). Do you see them as having been abused or not really? I'm not trying to sway you a certain direction but rather looking for your perceptions. We all grow and process at different rates of speed. It took me quite a few months to formulate my answers...

Wools

[alphabeta]

Dear Woolspinner2000,

Thanks for your concern.

I struggled with these issues myself when I first began T because to me, all that had happened in my life up until that time, well, it was normal.

I share the same thoughts -- everything that had been going on, until recently, was normal to me.  Four therapists, in the past, as well as my father told me that my mother's behavior wasn't normal, yet I was convinced that it was.

So if I asked you if you were abused as a child, how would you answer? How would you define abuse?

Thinking about it, I would say that I was emotionally abused or blackmailed as a kid, because my mother would tell me that if I didn't think as she did, then I was a horrible person.  This coupled with her threats to kill herself led me to not have trust in her and also to walk on eggshells and be extremely mindful of what I said around her.

The next question would be about abuse or violence related to your family (wife and son). Do you see them as having been abused or not really? I'm not trying to sway you a certain direction but rather looking for your perceptions. We all grow and process at different rates of speed. It took me quite a few months to formulate my answers...

I definitely think that my wife and son have been abused. 

My wife has had all sorts of things said to her, from saying that she was a horrible person, a sociopath, a "Hitler", the coldest person ever, a parasite, that she doesn't love our child, and that she should be treated like a child or a non-entity even in her own home (emotional abuse) and had hair pulled on one occasion as well as being pushed on several (physical).

My son has been told that he will never see her again or he has driven her to kill herself because he feels uncomfortable around her, occasionally teases her, or doesn't give her a hug (emotional abuse/blackmail).  He has also been pushed and thrown by her for the same reasons (physical abuse).

The more I think about it, the less I feel that I want to continue having any sort of relationship with her... .

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi again alphabeta,

Thank you for taking the time to think through my questions and answer them. I can tell that you see the way your wife and son have been treated as a little different than how you were treated although you see problems with both. It's always been easier for me to see others more clearly than I see myself. That takes more time and effort for me to work through. Is that how it is for you?

I have a link to share with you. It refers to partners, but think of your mom when you read it and see what thoughts come to mind.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/characteristics-healthy-relationships

This may get you to pondering a bit about the healthiness of your relationship with your mom. I look forward to hearing what you think.

Wools

[Harri]

The more I think about it, the less I feel that I want to continue having any sort of relationship with her... .

You have been through a lot.  Going from thinking your mother is just fine to realizing she has serious issues and not just that but has been abusing you and your wife and child.  It is a lot.  Huge in fact.

I share the same thoughts -- everything that had been going on, until recently, was normal to me.  Four therapists, in the past, as well as my father told me that my mother's behavior wasn't normal, yet I was convinced that it was.

It was all you knew and you were not ready to hear or see it.  Sometimes, even if you hear and see it, it can take a while before you are comfortable doing something to change things.

We have all been there or are going through that now. 

[Learning2Thrive]

Harri wrote:

It was all you knew and you were not ready to hear or see it.  Sometimes, even if you hear and see it, it can take a while before you are comfortable doing something to change things.

We have all been there or are going through that now.

This is so true. Be very gentle and kind with yourself, alphabeta. 
Sending you good thoughts and positive energy.

  L2T

[alphabeta]

Hi Woolspinner2000,

Thanks for recommending the link:

https://bpdfamily.com/content/characteristics-healthy-relationships

After evaluating the relationship with my mother, I see that it was incredibly unhealthy -- eight of the 10 signs of an unhealthy relationship were applicable.

I feel much calmer now that I have gone NC with her.  There are still moments when I feel guilty, yet it isn't as overwhelming as it was a couple months ago.  I have told her what I need to re-engage with her (for a therapist to convince me that she is aware of her condition), so she knows what to do if she wants to keep our relationship.

[Woolspinner2000]

Nice to hear from you alphbeta,

I'm glad you popped back in to update us. What has been going on in your life since you last posted? How are your wife and son?

Thanks for taking the time to read the link I shared. There is a whole lot of food for thought there.   I've had to take time to evaluate the relationships I'm involved in too. It's rather startling to examine them and see that they are not what we thought they were.

Back to the 'normalness' of what we see, it's easier to view the environment we grew up in as being okay (or just like any other family's life) because to consider the opposite tips the scale in a direction that has the potential to alter the only foundation we've known.  It becomes more than just "this was an unhealthy environment and relationship."

Are you ready for the next question?

How did that unhealthy relationship affect you?

Wools

[Turkish]

A "condition" be it BPD or whatever, might not be the road down which to go.  Many people with "conditions" fall back on this to excuse themselves. I know a pwBPD who knows she's BPD,  yet it empowers her.  She still blame shifts. 

 What would be fruitful might be, "can you see how your behaviors are what you do is hurting others? Me, my wife, your grandchild?"  Still confrontational. 

"When you grabbed or hit [son], he felt hurt."

"When you shoved and hit [wife], she was hurt."

Maybe you already said such things.