Wife’s therapist cutting my legs out from under me.

[Ltahoe]

So in my first post I briefly touched on my wife’s counselor, seems she’s chose one that basically just goes along with her and she can manipulate. In my opinion all my wife’s counselor does is validate her, to my understanding they have no real plan. She’s seen this therapist for years, yet I wonder if her therapist even knows her diagnosis, it almost seems her counselor approaches her as if she’s an emotionally healthy adult with just depression/anxiety. My wife’s had the opportunity to go through therapy and seek help from the psychiatrist that diagnosed her. He told her that they’d work on learning realistic relationship expectations also. She never followed through and is now considering a different psychologist but hasn’t set one up yet. In the meantime though she keeps seeing this other therapist, probably non qualified to deal with BPD. So I guess my wife hasn’t been as good with impulsive spending as I thought, we’ve agreed on a budget that includes personal spending money. However my wife has been using a credit card additionally. Of course I’ve confronted her about this behavior as we or I should say I recently worked hard(20hrs of OT a week) a few years ago to eliminate our credit card debts. We set out a plan not to ever use cards for debt, only in cases as needed when a debit card isn’t accepted or convinient but not to use as borrowing but only to be used to immediately pay with our cash accounts. So of course I confront her on this issue and her and her counselors response is I’m controlling. So basically what I’m being made to feel is I’m no longer allowed to say anything about behavior that is detrimental or bad for our entire family.

This is becoming an issue in other areas too. For example I’ve been pushed off by my wife repeatedly when trying to make advances. She however complains that she always has to be the instigator when we are intimate, and I need to make her feel more wanted. But it feels like a trap because everytime I do straight up rejection follows. I’m not trying super late or at unrealistic times either.  So after not being successful pretty much ever with my advances which she requests, I bring up that it’s a little frustrating that I’m suppose to initiate advances but they never work. So she goes to her therapist and her and her therapist conclude that I’m sexually controlling. I’m left standing here like What the heck seriously she controls everything sex in our relationship. It’s just issue after issue, it’s becoming to the point I’m not allowed to be concerned or express concern over anything because it’s being thrown in my face as I’m being controlling. Seriously as a caretaker I probably say that my issue is the exact opposite of being controlling, I’d say I’m too accommodating and flexible. So when I have an issue or take a stand it’s usually for a good reason, or to figure out WTH is going on. Idk what I should do at this point I really feel her current therapist who is doing nothing to work on her underlying issues is becoming detrimental to our relationship and technically her client too.  As you guys would say I feel her therapist is just a source of “validating the invalid”.

Funny thing is I saw this therapist years ago with her, and the therapist was really suprised at what I had to say. Basically she asked my wife if what I was saying was correct considering I wasn’t lying and my wife was stuck in the middle of either lying or admitting what was happening I guess she was under pressure to say. She didn’t end up lying but it was a real wake up call for the therapist to hear my side of things, and these things not be denied by her client. I just wonder how this counselor years later can be so ignorant to the reality that was once made apparent to her.  I offered to go again so both sides can come out but apparently my wife doesn’t think it’s such a good idea. Of course not. However if I get the chance to go again idk what to say, I could just talk about what’s going on, but part of me feels like calling this therapist out. Like asking the therapist in the many years of seeing my wife has she become familiar with her diagnosis, if she knows how to counsel BPD patients, and what plans of action are set in place to actually help her client. Of course at that point I realize the therapist would like me a lot less, but I can’t keep having my legs cut out from under me by an inept therapist.

[Cat Familiar]

This seems like a familiar pattern with pwBPD: they reject any therapists who try to get them to change behavior or confront unrealistic expectations and they continue to see therapists who pat them on the back and tell them they're OK just as they are.

Your wife is a cash cow for this therapist. Whether she's merely complicit or out of her depth is another issue. Also the fact that pwBPD can be so charming and proclaim such victimhood, it's possible that your wife's been able to successfully pull the wool over her eyes.

If I were in your shoes, I would make an individual appointment with this T, asking that it be kept confidential. I would tell her that I understood that she had to keep all your wife's confidences, but that you want to talk about relationship issues and how they affect you. She may or may not be willing to do this, but it would certainly show good faith and openness on your part.

[zachira]

It is unethical for a therapist to keep working with a client who is making no progress. A therapist can lose their license for doing this. I would request permission from your wife for the therapist to give you authorization to see the therapist's notes. By reading the notes, you might be able to determine if you have a case for malpractice against the therapist or if there is indeed some value to the therapy. It is really hard to know, because some clients can be extremely manipulative and make it look like he/she is making progress. Therapists are often surprised to find out that clients that he/she thinks benefited from therapy, say after a considerable time therapy has ended, that he/she did not benefit. The contrary happens as well: Clients that the therapist thinks did not benefit from therapy hear from the client years later that the therapy was extremely helpful.
I would say your wife would most likely benefit from participating in a program that does DBT, which is the most successful evidence based therapy for BPD.
Take care, and keep us posted. It is so frustrating when things do not change for the better. We are here to listen and support you.

[Ltahoe]

Yeah, it’s just frustrating. I’m not sure exactly what the deal is with the therapist, not sure if it’s about money. It’s like it gets brought up every so often that we do a couples session with the therapist, but for some reason falls through. I’ve asked when we’re going to go together before, but the appointments get scheduled at times I can’t go, and just for her. Honestly things have gotten worse lately and I feel like W is manipulating the counselor maybe why W isn’t interested in me going truly going. Yet at the same time you would think the counselor would eventually figure it out. I understand a therapist isn’t around the client 24/7 but you think there would be a moment after years and say 20ish visits a year that the therapist would be like there’s something more than depression/anxiety here.

They hit a point a few years ago where my wife wanted to try a new medication and the therapist isn’t authorized to write prescriptions. So that’s where the psychiatrist came in and did the evaluations and came up with the recommendations and diagnosis. So you would think that the therapist would at least come up with a plan based on the BPD diagnosis, if she’s capable of handling it. Certainly as her husband knowing something was up I was all over it when she was diagnosed. I think I hit a few books went through some forums but didn’t join any at that time. I really don’t even think my wife understands her diagnosis which makes me think that the therapist hasn’t done anything about it, or discussed it with her. After years you think someone would know about their condition.

I’m tempted to discuss BPD with her but I feel a professional should do that, that’s what they’re getting paid for. Plus as her spouse and her BPD I see the potential for a lot to go wrong there. I can’t even really use the word “you” when we argue or discussing something because she’ll take it as she’s a horrible person.  I’m really in a sensitive spot.

My wife has been more erratic lately as stated so she’s been mentioning suicide and stuff lately again. I kind of feel like if she’s going to her therapist and mentioning suicidal thoughts, if the therapist is getting confused too as if she thought that her client was getting better and now it seems she’s not. So of course I’m wondering if my wife is playing the “victim” to her and she’s believing it, then easiest person to blame would be me, rather than face that the counseling is having no affect. Not to bring politics up but I also wonder if this counselor could be a hard core over the edge femmenist or something thinking men should have no say, not saying it’s so but crosses my mind.  I have no idea as why I wouldn’t have a say in money matters or sex matters in a marriage according to this therapist and when I do it’s considered controlling, these can even present difficulties even in a healthy relationship.

 I do like the ideas brought up. I could just go ahead and book an appointment with the therapist or ask for records. My initial thoughts on these ideas are they spark curiousity and deserve consideration. My only fear of that is it backfiring, I’m already being accused of being controlling. I could see how that may be interpreted by my wife’s therapist as controlling behavior or snooping also, even though being controlling isn’t my intentions. I’m not sure what level my W is manipulating the counselor or even me. Maybe she’s misrepresenting the counselor to me and me to the counselor. But the W has already gone as far as to say I’m in denial and claims it’s coming from the counselor. I’ve never heard her say these things before so something does make me feel she is repeating what she heard said to her.  At the same time I also realize she could be reflecting what she sees in herself on to me.

[zachira]

I have some questions for you: Why does your wife say she is going to therapy? Does your wife feel that she is getting better by going to therapy?
Another suggestion: Google the therapist. Most likely she has a website though those who have been in business a long time often do not. Check to see if she has the qualifications to be treating a person with BPD. You can do that by comparing her credentials to other therapists who advertise themselves as ones who treat BPD. Most therapists are not qualified to treat clients with BPD.
Recommendation: You are already being painted black by your wife. Probably, the only way to get a better perspective on what is going on in therapy is to meet with her therapist alone, hopefully with permission from your wife to disclose what is going on in therapy. How much worse could it get than it is now, if you meet with your wife's therapist?
How many years of therapy has your wife had with this therapist? Several years of therapy with no noticeable improvement is a big red flag. The therapist may have a hard time referring her to another therapist, and cannot just dump a client without referring her/him to another therapist if she still needs therapy, and dumping a suicidal client are big ethics and legal violations.
So frustrating and painful to face so many unknowns, yet getting answers can help in making decisions. Keep us posted on how you are doing, and let us know what is working, and what is not going so well. There are many people on this site who are/have been is situations similar to yours and can respond to your concerns.

[Ltahoe]

I personally thought it was to deal with her depression/anxiety and whatever past is still bugging her. I think that’s the intent she started with. As far as I know she didn’t even know she had BPD and I think she’s unaware of what that means or actually the one in denial. The only thing I know of the diagnosis is cause she told me that the psychiatrist gave her a diagnosis. So I asked what and she said “borderline” and I said “borderline what?” Thinking it meant she’s on the edge of something but not fully. So I asked more and she didn’t know. So I started googling.  She actually was going before we met so now it’s been seven years of seeing this counselor minimum with gaps in there. For awhile she wasn’t going as it was an insurance thing before we were married she couldn’t afford the cash payments. Of course with insurance now it’s just a copay not minimizing the amount we’ve paid but easier to pay a copay than 100% responsibility.

Yes I know I’m no longer in idealization stage. You may be right about the how much worse can it get, but I’m actually sort of scared that it can get worse to tell you the truth. I suppose part of me doesn’t want to escalate things even worse, I just feel the more controversial things I do in her eyes the more often she gets mad. Ya I know it’s sad, it’s why I feel like I’m not allowed to do anything that’ll trigger her and ya now it’s getting worse with the accusations. I’m married with kids so there kids involved if I bring up certain things it’s guaranteed to get a reaction I just hate exposing my kids to that. There’s also the relationship implications I’d have with my kids with divorce and financial stuff as well if it got pushed to that.

I just did a google search and her counselor is a clinical social worker. Specializes in depression, anxiety, domestic violence, child abuse.  So yes nothing about BPD. As far as permission to see notes idk, I’ve asked certain things and she’s not always very open. So she seems to want to have certain things kept to herself, so my guess is I’m out of luck getting her approval. 

[formflier]

Have you heard directly from the T that you are controlling and your wife is not... .OR... .are you hearing what your wife SAYS the therapist is saying?

Massively different.

Also... .let's be honest here.  ON the face of it... you were and are trying to control your wife's spending.

That can be validated, agreed with... .no need to "fight" or "disapprove" of that observation.  The real work is "why" and are your actions and attempts at control a reasonable response to events in a relationship.

Please... .I'm not trying to argue with you... .I am trying to point out that it's perfectly appropriate for a therapist to look at controlling behavior... and say... .that's controlling behavior.  (an observation)

Then the real work begins.

So... .I would like to suggest an alternate thought.  What if the "intent" of the T is to validate as much as possible... so that your wife will be as calm as possible.  Perhaps that's the best she can be.

I'll come back to this thread later.

It's also possible that the T is a quack... .most likely the "truth" is somewhere in the middle

FF

[formflier]

I certainly think that you should have a conversation with the therapist... .but I would suggest a "change of lens".

What are your goals? 

How is progress to the goals?

What part can I play in helping reach those goals?

How would you like me to raise concerns?

FF

[Ltahoe]

Formflier

 I don’t disagree with you. I’ve actually tried to JADE it that way before.

I’ve asked my wife outright if I’m controlling. She says no, and I said come on I’m not looking for the answer I want to hear I want to know what you really think. She said no Again . But I said the same thing as you am I controlling, I don’t think so, in general am I controlling I don’t think so. But then I pointed out exactly what you said basically. I may not be controlling over all but have I tried to take control of certain situations ya but rarely. So I basically said if you consider me controlling over them few instances and are going to label me as controlling over that fine whatever that’s how it is.  She still blames it on the therapist though.

But it is also hard when pwBPD specifically blame other people. I feel like in our relationship whatever my wife is taking out of counseling is basically to blame me. You’re right I’m not sitting in counseling so idk what’s what. But if there’s a root cause of impulsive overspending blaming me by saying I’m controlling never fixes that situation. If she always says she wants one thing and doing the opposite of what she says she wants blaming me is never going to fix that situation.

To tell you guys the truth, what do I want. What I want idk if I can get it out of this relationship. I want a healthy relationship with two adults, with two people who would give reciprocal efforts, two adults who wouldn’t continuously test the boundaries of each other. Two adults who when they have problems can actually come up with solutions and compromise to solve them. Someone where it doesn’t always have to be about them. Someone I can have enjoyable experiences without them finding a way to ruin the joy for others. Ya it’s kind of a lot to ask from someone with BPD.

So more realistic for pwBPD figure out how to control their impulses. So we don’t have these budget issues.

Maybe figure out how to stop the rage, maybe it’s not physical but it’s still hurts everyone in this family. It’s bad enough that my teenager has said “if my wife ever treats me like that I’m divorcing her”,and that my daughter is afraid to be normal sometimes cause according to her “ I better be careful mommy might get mad”

Maybe figure out how she can express herself genuinely, I’m seriously lost on that one she’s never satisfied if you do what she wants, or if you just ignore it and don’t.

Truth is if these things can’t be fixed there’s no point for me to be in this relationship other than the kids. I can’t sit here and watch her self destruct at my financial and emotional expense anymore.

[Red5]

Good Morning Ltahoe,

My first wife, I remember this almost exact scenario happening, was almost as if the therapist targeted me, on my X2B’s behalf, almost as if, “the fix was in”… I came to understand, that my X2B was using her therapist to validate her intentions of divorce, and eventual abandonment of not only me, but also our three children…

I even went to a couple of sessions, and I too was labeled as “controlling”… but I did stand up for myself a  little on the last and final occasion that I went, and I do remember saying something to the effect of… “so by me having a “problem” with her (X2B’s) infidelity (serial), and not “liking it”, then I am controlling (yes?)… and to beat all, the therapist had the “nerve” to sit there, and tell me to my face, yes (Red5), you need to give her (X2B) her “space”… she needs to "live a little” she said to me… yeah, & holy crap !

I was a pretty mixed up pup way back then… I wanted to “save” my marriage so bad, and I was at my wits end, but I did get up and walk out that day, and then told my X2B that I was never going back, and that if she wanted to “see” other people, that I was done with this marriage… maybe that was my very first boundary?…

That all happened over twenty-three years ago now…

We divorced eleven years later after that time, you know, I ended it, she became suicidal, I rescued, ah' sweet reconciliation... .wash rise repeat... .and then it crashed again, and then we finally divorced... .which was twelve years ago now,

Onto my current udx/BPD wife/marriage… she has never been to any kind of therapy, as she is udx, but we separated for about six months right after we first got married due to never ending fights… yeah, I had no clue.

So we went to MC for a total of three sessions, and the T told her that she needed to “calm down”, and give me some “levity” she called it, all this was in regards to her “need” to try and mother my three kids; two teenagers mind you, and at that time my twenty-five year old autistic son… whom all lived with me, as I was a single dad for about five years, btwn marriages... .

Yes, I think that going together to T sessions is a bit dicey with pw/BPD… I also remember this MC telling/asking my current wife, “why do your feel the need to “control” so much”, I almost fell out my seat when I heard that… udx/BPD wife then only “JADE’ed” the T… funny, at that time I knew nothing about nothing, only years later did I finally start to try to really understand “why”… and that’s where I am today.

One more idea I have now… the closer I got/get to udx/BPDw, the harder she pushed/pushes away if she is in her BPD zone, so I back off, after sustaining “emotional damage”… so what happens, well, I start remembering the “pain”, so I don’t come in so close anymore, and actually may have given up altogether trying to “fix” her, sooth her, but not trying to understand her… that said, I am now firmly entrenched in my “caretaker” role, and I have compartmentalized, and “put away” any hope of having any such ideas of a “normal” marriage with her…

... .and as I have come to this “radical acceptance “mode of thinking, I yet still have empathy, but its is most times packed up and stored away someplace in my brain housing group in a very apathetic way… so that said… since I do not “come in close” anymore, and I have this self protect and perceived attitude of “disciplined indifference”… I am labeled as “controlling”, by my udx/BPD wife… can you wrap your head around that one  !

Anyways, I can certainly concur with your frustrations in regards to your wife’s therapist, histroy of, .and the implications that are presented there.

Hang in there Ltahoe, Red5
 

[formflier]

Hey... .I wish I had more time to spend on this post.


It needs to be a spirit of cooperation and "need for understanding"... .vice something combative.

I understand there is venting going on here... and we are a great place to let it happen.  I 100% believe the OP that the events went down as described.  Debating "facts" isn't going to get people very far... .seeking understanding may... .

Please continue to vent... .let's also work on looking at things from the T's point of view and your pwBPDs POV.

Sadly... .I would also encourage you to not look "for a fix"... .but again... ."understanding"

Yes there are stories of "fix" in pwBPD... .those tend to be rare.

I think "my story" is likely more typical.  I understand more what I'm dealing with and I've carved out a life that I'm happy with, even though it's not what I dreamed of or perhaps not even what I "want".

FF

[Red5]

Ltahoe,

Here is a good link, I liked this short video, as I am a big Pink Floyd fan  ... .seriously, good stuff, if you haven't watched it yet, .

So in the spirit of seeking and seeking understanding... .here is the link,

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=301381

Caveat, if I could have seen this back in 2007, things would most certainly be very different in my life right now, well maybe anyways.

Red5

[Ltahoe]

That does sound quite familiar Red

Here’s also an excerpt I just came across in the book “stop walking on egg shells”.

People with BPD may unconsciously try to control others
            by putting them in no-win situations, creating chaos that no one else can figure out,
            or accusing others of trying to control them.

Story of my life. If anything if one of us is more overall controlling it would definitely be her. She might not outright say stuff but I feel her rages, passive aggressiveness, and accusations such as in this case are all kind of ways to control. I feel no one wants to be accused of being controlling, ya it sucks. I ultimately feel like her saying her counselor is saying I’m controlling is actually putting me in a situation where I’m not allowed to show concern and if I do, it can be thrown right back at me. See what did I say my counselor says you’re controlling and now you’re confirming if she’s right. Therfore she’s actually using the 3rd party to make me feel it’s someone who’s opinion who deals with mental health issues that I have the issue.  It’s also deflecting from the real issue of overspending, and kind of saying watch me and you can’t do anything about it, cause the hurtful accusations and blames are going to be thrown out at you. Granted if I step outside her comfort zone she’s not hesitant to let me know verbally.

I just hate being labeled controlling as if I’m the guy that doesn’t let her work cause she’ll be around male coworkers or the guy that won’t let her wear stuff that makes her look good cause other men will look. Or like I have access to the money and she doesn’t and I determine what she buys. None of this is the case though I’m pretty lenient. Just back to the money example we both are allotted the same amount of money for discretionary spending and neither of us has a say in what the other does with it. Personally I think some of her expenses are a waste and she thinks vise versa of mine. It’s really only when she’s violating a predetermined budget do I have anything to say. I’ve heard it too before, it’s not in the budget. Only difference is I realize she’s correct since we predetermined together and don’t go hide the expenses.


In the end though whether I’m controlling or not I think she’s aware that the spending is an issue. She cut her card up and has a plan to take care of what’s done with her discretionary money so we’ll see if she follows through.

I am still tempted to make an appointment with the therapist. As her client has exhibited suicidal tendencies you think she’d at least be open to hear more sides of the story. Although I do feel any long term counciling with the therapist for me is a waste. If I’m trying to get something out of counseling I’d rather see one that’s familiar with BPD and can help me with my own issues regarding the handling of BPD.

[formflier]

So... .how did you come to understand that being controlling is bad?

FF

[Ltahoe]

That’s an interesting thought.

I suppose in general most people consider it to be bad. I think most people think of the extreme cases of controlling though when the term is generalized, as over controlling, the person who is really abusively controlling. It technically would come across as negative in that case because it can be seen as taking away someone else’s free will and choice. I feel like in this case and context it’s being thrown around as if I have an issue. I think I understand what you’re getting at in a way, but not sure I’ve ever heard the phrase “he/she is controlling” relationship speaking in a positive context.

[formflier]

I use it in a positive light.  I will admit to anyone that I am a control freak...

https://www.amazon.com/Boundaries-Updated-Expanded-When-Control/dp/0310351804/ref=sr_1_1/137-1339748-0740231?ie=UTF8&qid=1531943244&sr=8-1&keywords=boundaries+by+cloud+and+townsend

The key is that I control things within my boundaries... .unapologetically.  If you do it correctly, and others "feel controlled"... .it's likely they are "boundary busters"

For instance... .my wife knows that if she wants me to open my wallet... there is a very narrow "window" or "way" for her to ask.

Lots of requirements.  Kindness, respect, detail... .no overtalk... .perhaps appreciation for the other times I opened my wallet.  If there are "unreconciled issues" about a previous "wallet unkindness"... that will need to be fixed first.

My wife hates it... expresses she feels very controlled (perhaps she wants to be an a$$hole with no consequences?  who knows?)

Is my goal to "control her"... .not really but that is a "side benefit".  I don't open my wallet to anyone... .who treats me unkindly (and all the other stuff)

So... .read the book.  Post about it.  Heads up, there is a lot of Christian stuff in it, but it's still good for you if you are not a believer (didn't want you to be surprised)

FF

[Ltahoe]

Also given further thought in a similar case example. Say I want some said toys, a 4wheel ATV. So me and wife go look at 4 wheelers for fun as pre arranged not to buy. Time comes and I decide to buy one, my wife says to me we’re just looking. I say I really want it, plus it’s on sale. Wife says no it’s not in the budget and where are we going to park it for now. I say you’re being controlling.

I basically just stumped the wife by manipulating her and making her think she’s not allowing me to be myself or make decisions. In this case to me it almost seems like a delusional immature personal attack for not getting your way.

[formflier]

I would do some thinking about the difference in  "controlling" and "manipulation"

As long as you are clear and upfront... .I think you are fine to be "controlling" of others... .as long as it isn't "coercive".

They have a choice.

You set your standard... and they do what they do.

FF

[formflier]

Also given further thought in a similar case example. Say I want some said toys, a 4wheel ATV. So me and wife go look at 4 wheelers for fun as pre arranged not to buy. Time comes and I decide to buy one, my wife says to me we’re just looking. I say I really want it, plus it’s on sale. Wife says no it’s not in the budget and where are we going to park it for now. I say you’re being controlling.

I basically just stumped the wife by manipulating her and making her think she’s not allowing me to be myself or make decisions. In this case to me it almost seems like a delusional immature personal attack for not getting your way.

I love talking about this stuff... .keep it coming.

OK... .you wife is being controlling and (at first glance)... I support her.

It's "appropriate" to keep (vice abrogate) an agreement (such as a budget).

This can be hard to "rule on" because there can be so much nuance.  If it is "your money"... you wouldn't even ask your wife.  If it's "hers"... she wouldn't ask. 

If it's (Joint money) then... .usually the "no" wins.

FF

[Ltahoe]

Thanks I’ll add that book to my reading list. To me that’s part of the issue of being labeled controlling. That allegation got through my skin It actually cut me. I know I’m not controlling in the sense that I’m taking away literally all the freedom away, it’s not an abusive nature. I mean I understand your perspective everyone controls certain situations to certain extents. She’s not going to be in any harm if she doesn’t follow.  Of course if she crosses the boundaries the relationship becomes at risk. So technically there are different levels of controlling from basically I don’t stand up or my ground at all all the way to I control every aspect of your life. I suppose there’s a healthy dose of everything including control. But it has opened my eyes to further explanations of what controlling really means. I know the way the average person talks about it is not good.

I personally don’t have any issues with what my wife bought it’s the way she went about it knowing it was a violation of budget, she could have eventually acquired all that stuff in a matter of a few months but lacked the discipline or impulse control not to do it as we agreed. We do have a joint account you are sort of correct no almost always wins even when she says it. Usually just takes a logical explanation(which doesn’t always work for pwBPD).

Now just figuring out a way to present it to her.

[1stTimer]

So she goes to her therapist and her and her therapist conclude that I’m sexually controlling... .

Funny thing is I saw this therapist years ago with her, and the therapist was really suprised at what I had to say. Basically she asked my wife if what I was saying was correct considering I wasn’t lying and my wife was stuck in the middle of either lying or admitting what was happening I guess she was under pressure to say. She didn’t end up lying but it was a real wake up call for the therapist to hear my side of things, and these things not be denied by her client... .

I offered to go again so both sides can come out but apparently my wife doesn’t think it’s such a good idea. Of course not.

,,,but part of me feels like calling this therapist out.

When you read it like that does it read any differently to you?  I could be wrong but it doesn't sounds like the therapist is the issue. Your therapist can only work with what your wife tells her. You can only work with what your wife tells you the therapist said.  As I read the above some alternative or even concurrent scenarios present themselves:

1) Your wife does not give the therapist the (we'll call your version) correct version of events so her therapist can only make conclusions based on what your wife tells the therapist. More accurately your wife tells the therapist her version of what she experiences.

2) Your wife does not give you the correct version of what the therapist said. More accurately your wife tells you her version of what she heard.

I remember once my sister and brother-in-law both recounting a couples session they went to, if I didn't know it was the same session I'd have thought it was two different sessions.

Even with a good therapist, people hear what they want and they bring with them what they wanted/needed/interpreted hearing or experiencing. Yeah, it takes a great therapist to navigate through all that, I'm not suggesting your wife's therapist is good or bad, just that perhaps your wife's therapist is not the problem. You may feel ganged up on but I'd wager it is a "gang" of one. And using your therapist's feedback whether it is real, imagined or interpreted through a distorted lens is a powerful weapon to bring to bear in an arugment/discussion/marriage.

Is there a way to suggest couples therapy in addition to her own therapy? If not to step back and find some tools to hear/discuss even validate what your wife brings back to the table without necessarily taking it on? I'm no expert at therapy or marriage but it seems to me that whether her therapist is great or not you are more in need of tools in how to communicate with her about her therapy so a) she can't use it as a weapon and b) you can learn from her/it vs having your buttons pushed.

[Ltahoe]

Yes there’s always two sides to one story. It’s kind of late now but I suppose I could have phrased somehow my wife is taking out of counseling that I’m controlling. Of course if the counselor is telling her indeed I’m controlling it’s most likely because of the way my wife is addressing the sessions. It’s why I asked wife outright  if I’m controlling and her to tell me what she really thinks not tell me what I want to hear. Again I have to work on my JADE I realize this. I however am still concerned that this counselor has no idea how to deal with pwBPD. I am confused myself, just given that the counselor ought to know that she’s getting an extreme version of one story and she’s been made aware of that before. Who knows the real truth I’m left with my wife’s version. Idk if the counselor knew anything about BPD you think she would know the victim role and would make sure she’s not just validating her as the victim all the time regardless of what my wife says. There’s multiple sources that say therapists with BPD patients have to know how to call out pwBPD or they’ll just play the roles with them. My guess is my wife has counselor as rescuer, herself as victim, me dancing roles, and the counselor is oblivious too it all and now she’s just part of the game not really helping. I mean I’m not there so I could be all wrong but that’s my take.

[1stTimer]

Hi Ltahoe, that is a tough spot to be in for sure. I'm not sure if you have much control over which therapist she sees or she sees one with you though so all you have left is how you deal with her. Maybe it would help if you let the 'my therapist thinks that' translate into 'I feel that' then you might not feel like it is 'official' or you are being ganged up on and remind yourself that you are likely hearing her version. I wouldn't call it garbage-in/garbage-out but just that you know you are hearing the feedback the way she heard it after the therapist heard her version of what she experiences not some official therapist judgment of you.

My story is quite different than yours yet I'm quite reactive myself and am trying to learn JADE, Empathy, Validation. All very big to chew.  One thing I'm learning or trying to learn is listen first. Don't frame answer, defend internally. Just listen. Hear. If you find yourself reactive perhaps say 'Ok I hear you, you think I'm sexually controlling. I didn't know you felt that way that must be hard. Let me really give this some thought maybe we can speak tomorrow". Or something like that (still working on this darn validation stuff). So she knows you heard her and you can reply after giving it some thought and take the anger/defensiveness out of it.

Yes there’s always two sides to one story. It’s kind of late now but I suppose I could have phrased somehow my wife is taking out of counseling that I’m controlling. Of course if the counselor is telling her indeed I’m controlling it’s most likely because of the way my wife is addressing the sessions. It’s why I asked wife outright  if I’m controlling and her to tell me what she really thinks not tell me what I want to hear. Again I have to work on my JADE I realize this. I however am still concerned that this counselor has no idea how to deal with pwBPD. I am confused myself, just given that the counselor ought to know that she’s getting an extreme version of one story and she’s been made aware of that before. Who knows the real truth I’m left with my wife’s version. Idk if the counselor knew anything about BPD you think she would know the victim role and would make sure she’s not just validating her as the victim all the time regardless of what my wife says. There’s multiple sources that say therapists with BPD patients have to know how to call out pwBPD or they’ll just play the roles with them. My guess is my wife has counselor as rescuer, herself as victim, me dancing roles, and the counselor is oblivious too it all and now she’s just part of the game not really helping. I mean I’m not there so I could be all wrong but that’s my take.

[formflier]

Ltahoe,

I had some drive time... and I did quite a bit of thinking about your post and situation in general.

Somehow... .you need to reflect on why anyone (wife, therapist or neighbor 12 doors down) labeling you as controlling is getting you worked up.

pwBPD seem to have a sixth sense about "triggers" and how to exploit them.  My guess is that your pwBPD is using this control issue to run circles around you.  Perhaps you are just starting to "catch on".

Please don't think I'm suggesting she is "thoughtfully" plotting this... it's likely a result of her emotions playing out.

Step back... get some perspective.

Your pwBPD goes to counseling and you are labelled as sexually controlling (or controlling otherwise) and it's got you worked up.

What if your pwBPD went to counseling and they figured out you were a wearwolf... .and were running around howling at night... .or that you secretly want to be a unicorn?

Why does one have an impact... and the other doesn't?

Here is the thing... .I would hope you are sexually controlling.  I mean... .an out of control sex guy... that's no good... right?  You don't want to put that thing just anywhere... .

Many times when the monkeys start flying... and the circus comes to town... .and you start buying into the truth and freaking out... just flip it.

"oh babe... of course I'm sexually controlling.  If you think I'd be better off to lack control... well... .maybe I'll take a long weekend to Vegas"  (see how it "looks different" from another angle)

Let your pwBPD fly monkeys and ride unicorns... .figure out what you want to control... and do so.

FF

[Ltahoe]

FF

My thoughts are that it cut me cause I honestly feel like she’s saying I’m not allowing her to live her life. That I’m interfering with her wishes. My initial definition is controlling(overcontrolling) is a bad thing to be too. Then to top it off I kind of felt like she’s implying I’m not allowed to exercise concern or control at all. I’m already lost and confused about a lot of the behavior, just felt even more helpless and confused with that, also afraid of what’s to come next. I’m sure you’re right though my wife knows my weaknesses and can find them and exploit them, no arguments from me there. It’s one of my issues with this relationship, you’d think your wife would help strengthen your weaknesses not poke at them and exploit them.

 I haven’t fully learned to not take the raging personal yet, often times I can but there’s other times it does get into me. I almost notice that if it doesn’t get to me she’s even more irritated so yes I feel if she really wants to get to me she’s getting better at figuring out how to. Trust me she’s made me question a lot of things. I mean look at the sex scenario, She’s pretty much got it where I’m so confused how to handle that. Wants advances only to reject them I really don’t remember the last time I’ve been successful.  But don’t confuse that as us not having sex the frequency is on par with other married couples.  It’s just she’s the instigator that succeeds, yet she complains I never start it. Then says I’m sexually controlling, that’s what’s so frustrating. It make no sense to me.

I honestly don’t remember if there’s a reason or not I don’t use sarcasm or humor when she does those things but yes maybe you’re on to something there. Lol



 

[formflier]

So... what's wrong with her saying you aren't letting her live your life?

compare that to

"you are keeping smelly unicorns in your closet... .they are supposed to be in the basement"

Listen... if you are letting her live her life... .(which it appears you are... .I get it that I'm new to your story)... .but on a broad brush look... .I"m not hearing a controlling guy.

I'm hearing a confused guy trying to sort out what the heck kinda a relationship he is involved in.

Pointing out hypocrisy is not controlling.  Asking for her to not be a hypocrite is not controlling.

I realize that "letting her" say those things isn't easy... .but that's where you are going to have to focus.  Right now there is some kind of reaction or dysfunctional need being filled with the control issue.

She can talk about it if she wants... .you don't control that.  You control what you think and talk about.

Somehow... .control and controlling needs to be dropped as a subject. 

Sure there are other details to work on, such as the sex thing... but let's put that in a separate bucket.

Again... .I know I'm new to your story... .but I'm positive this "control discussion" is dysfunctional and not helping either of you.

Reading the boundaries book will help... .I'm still trying to sort out next steps here... .

Many times it's easier to figure out "what we are doing isn't working" and perhaps figuring out to "stop"... .but figuring out what "to do instead" can be harder.  There will be some trial and error.

Assignment:  Think about the past week.  Try to recreate a diary or log of all the "control discussions" you guys had.  Even if they weren't arguments.  See if you can post it here.

Hang in there...


FF

[Ltahoe]

So this Boundaries seems to be a series. Am I better just getting the original or is Boundaries in marriage worth consideration over the original.

[formflier]

So this Boundaries seems to be a series. Am I better just getting the original or is Boundaries in marriage worth consideration over the original.

I would get the original... first.  

The marriage one is useful.  

It is critical you understand the concept first... .before trying to "apply" it.

Also, not sure how religious you are.  The marriage one is helpful for some religious types that get "one flesh" twisted around in their brains.  

"one flesh" doesn't mean no boundaries, yet many people take it as that.  

My guess is you will read the original and have several "oh wow" moments.  Much of it is "common sense" but is delivered in a different way.

FF

[udunnome81]

My BPDw and I were in couples counseling for a while. Every-other week. In one session, she and her therapist would attack me and say that I was lazy/didn't do anything. (BTW I have Narcolepsy w/ Cataplexy & was on disability). Then 2 weeks later we would have our session and they would attack me for the opposite end of the spectrum by saying that I did everything and took away my wife's ability to take responsibility for anything.

Finally, we were leaving and my wife asked me how I though it went, and I told her that I though her therapist was a b****.

So, 2 weeks later at our next session, I sat down, and her therapist started with, "So, I hear you think I'm a b****?" Before I had a chance to even utter a response she said, "well, are you going to deny it?"

I responded, "not at all, I firmly stand behind my assessment. You attacking me this way is just confirming it."

She said, "well if that's what you believe, why don't you explain yourself... ."

I said, "Gladly".

I explained how every time we had a session everybody ganged up on me, and she refused to hold my spouse accountable for anything. I explained to the therapist that I know of my wife's diagnosis and the way she was working with her was obviously only making it worse. All she had accomplished was giving my wife a new vocabulary that she could throw around to use against me.

She took a break and then came back and apologized to both me and my wife, and got down to some real open communications. I though we finally had a breakthrough session. My wife agreed that it was a good session and even apologized for her previous behavior... .but then never went back to this therapist again.

I admit, that my frustration got a hold of me and I got very emotional. But there was only so much I could take. These couple sessions had been going on for over a year... .

[formflier]

 
It is very likely that the T figured out you might have something "actionable" with her governing board.  From the sounds of it, it would be something they would certainly look into.

I had a "biblical counselor" that would do similar things... .make judgments and claims (using God as his authority) for the craziest things.  My wife ate it up... .I called him on a few things... .stood my ground and he "kicked me out" for being "argumentative".

Currently going through the process of complaining to his superiors... .it's very interesting.  Turns out what most of the preach in public is NOT how they act in private... .actually pretty sad.

FF