Changing my perspective of Self

[Our abuse recovery guide]

I have read Kahlil Gibran's 'The Prophet' off and on over the years.  The title of this particular essay is 'On Good and Evil'.  It has been rattling around and around in my head for many months now.  It is helping me change my perspective of me.  For those who don't know, my mother used religion and god to manipulate me, and she convinced me that I was evil.  She didn't just say I had demons in me she used to actually pray over me to try to cast out demons she thought possessed me.  Needless to say, my perception of myself was affected and I often think about the word evil and what it means. 

For me, this book offers a haven of support and opens my heart to a new perspective of what evil is *not* (as my definition was warped) and as a result, a new perspective of Self.

(The whole book is available free online.)

On Good and Evil
 Kahlil Gibran

Of the good in you I can speak, but not of the evil.
For what is evil but good tortured by its own hunger and thirst?
Verily when good is hungry it seeks food even in dark caves, and when it thirsts it drinks even of dead waters.


You are good when you are one with yourself.
Yet when you are not one with yourself you are not evil.
For a divided house is not a den of thieves; it is only a divided house.
And a ship without rudder may wander aimlessly among perilous isles yet sink not to the bottom.


You are good when you strive to give of yourself.
Yet you are not evil when you seek gain for yourself.
For when you strive for gain you are but a root that clings to the earth and sucks at her breast.
Surely the fruit cannot say to the root, "Be like me, ripe and full and ever giving of your abundance."
For to the fruit giving is a need, as receiving is a need to the root.


You are good when you are fully awake in your speech,
Yet you are not evil when you sleep while your tongue staggers without purpose.
And even stumbling speech may strengthen a weak tongue.


You are good when you walk to your goal firmly and with bold steps.
Yet you are not evil when you go thither limping.
Even those who limp go not backward. But you who are strong and swift, see that you do not limp before the lame, deeming it kindness.


You are good in countless ways, and you are not evil when you are not good,
You are only loitering and sluggard.
Pity that the stags cannot teach swiftness to the turtles.


In your longing for your giant self lies your goodness: and that longing is in all of you.
But in some of you that longing is a torrent rushing with might to the sea, carrying the secrets of the hillsides and the songs of the forest.
And in others it is a flat stream that loses itself in angles and bends and lingers before it reaches the shore.
But let not him who longs much say to him who longs little, "Wherefore are you slow and halting?"
For the truly good ask not the naked, "Where is your garment?" nor the houseless, "What has befallen your house?"

[Harri]

I have read Kahlil Gibran's 'The Prophet' off and on over the years.  The title of this particular essay is 'On Good and Evil'.  It has been rattling around and around in my head for many months now.  It is helping me change my perspective of me.  For those who don't know, my mother used religion and god to manipulate me, and she convinced me that I was evil.  She didn't just say I had demons in me she used to actually pray over me to try to cast out demons she thought possessed me.  Needless to say, my perception of myself was affected and I often think about the word evil and what it means. 

For me, this book offers a haven of support and opens my heart to a new perspective of what evil is *not* (as my definition was warped) and as a result, a new perspective of Self.

(The whole book is available free online.)

On Good and Evil
 Kahlil Gibran

Of the good in you I can speak, but not of the evil.
For what is evil but good tortured by its own hunger and thirst?
Verily when good is hungry it seeks food even in dark caves, and when it thirsts it drinks even of dead waters.


You are good when you are one with yourself.
Yet when you are not one with yourself you are not evil.
For a divided house is not a den of thieves; it is only a divided house.
And a ship without rudder may wander aimlessly among perilous isles yet sink not to the bottom.


You are good when you strive to give of yourself.
Yet you are not evil when you seek gain for yourself.
For when you strive for gain you are but a root that clings to the earth and sucks at her breast.
Surely the fruit cannot say to the root, "Be like me, ripe and full and ever giving of your abundance."
For to the fruit giving is a need, as receiving is a need to the root.


You are good when you are fully awake in your speech,
Yet you are not evil when you sleep while your tongue staggers without purpose.
And even stumbling speech may strengthen a weak tongue.


You are good when you walk to your goal firmly and with bold steps.
Yet you are not evil when you go thither limping.
Even those who limp go not backward. But you who are strong and swift, see that you do not limp before the lame, deeming it kindness.


You are good in countless ways, and you are not evil when you are not good,
You are only loitering and sluggard.
Pity that the stags cannot teach swiftness to the turtles.


In your longing for your giant self lies your goodness: and that longing is in all of you.
But in some of you that longing is a torrent rushing with might to the sea, carrying the secrets of the hillsides and the songs of the forest.
And in others it is a flat stream that loses itself in angles and bends and lingers before it reaches the shore.
But let not him who longs much say to him who longs little, "Wherefore are you slow and halting?"
For the truly good ask not the naked, "Where is your garment?" nor the houseless, "What has befallen your house?"

[Learning2Thrive]

Harri, 

Right now I have no words other than, “Thank you.” I needed to read this today.

PS... .If my opinion matters, please know you are AMAZINGLY GOOD, Harri. 

[CollectedChaos]

Thank you for posting, Harri.  I read this ages ago and reading this shows me that I should revisit it.  There's a lot of wisdom in this passage and has sparked a lot of thinking for me... .I'm just not certain how to put it to words just yet.

I'm also sorry to hear about how your mother treated you - praying over you as though you had demons possessing you.  How horrible.  Please know that you are truly good. 

[Libra]

Harri,

It sounds beautiful and rings true.

I will have to read it many a time to let it sink in.

How did you discover this book all those years ago?

Your goodness shines out of every post of yours on this board. 

Libra.

[zachira]

Thank you for sharing the inspiring work of Kahlil Gibran. We are all looking for ways to heal, and you have come a long ways in your journey, yet are aware that the healing never ends.

[Harri]

I am glad others were touched by this essay.

I am not sure where I want to go with this to be honest.  I think, for me, it ties into the two recent self-esteem threads (One by Panda and one by Learning2Thrive).  

For the most part, I don't look at others the way I look at myself; with the judgement, cold analysis, and harsh impossible expectations.  I can see their flaws but they do not make me blind to the goodness within them.  I can't say that about myself.  And i am way better than I used to be.  I still need work though and this gives me perspective.  

What I once saw as evil I can now see (sort of) as just being a flawed human.  We all struggle.

Libra asked how I discovered the book.  An old friend gave it to me.  Fond memories there.  

[Panda39]

I definitely see this tying into the self-esteem conversations... .it's all about shutting down that inner critic and re-framing how we feel about ourselves.

For me the word isn't "Evil" ... .for me the word... .the message was ":)umb"    And what's interesting is that I believe that is the same message my mother received.  My mother has spend her whole life trying to prove she's not dumb and I have avoided the intellectual and embraced the emotional.

Harri, I wonder if "Evil" could have been the message your mother received?

Panda39

[Harri]

I definitely see this tying into the self-esteem conversations... .it's all about shutting down that inner critic and re-framing how we feel about ourselves.

What a beautiful and smart Panda you are!  Thank you for this.  I am still not able to tell when my inner critic is at work <head thunks on desk> not in this thread, not in the other one I did on being bamboozled  ... .grrr.  I can see the inner critic in others though!   

"Re-frame"  I love that word.  Yes, I said love.  Healing from childhood trauma = Reframing your view of Self. 

I got shivers when you said you wonder if my mother's message was also evil.  It definitely could have been.  She was raised by a mostly single mother with 5 kids and an alcoholic abusive mostly absent father both of whom were immigrants from very devout Catholic families.  She was born in the 30's.  It fits.  It fits if evil is a projection from her BPD traits and also from her presumed paranoid schizophrenia.  It hurts to think of the torture she must have done to herself.

It still floors me how much power a parent has.  Whether the word is evil or dumb or some other projection, there is so much power in words and the person saying those words.  And I don't mean that in some sort of new agey kind of way either.     

Panda, your smarts and wisdom are a gift.  Thank you for sharing them with me.  I am sorry your mother is unable to see that.  I am glad you fought through your 'dumb' demons.  Panda wisdom!

[Panda39]

It still floors me how much power a parent has.  Whether the word is evil or dumb or some other projection, there is so much power in words and the person saying those words.  And I don't mean that in some sort of new agey kind of way either.     

As a parent it's amazing how much damage you can do without ever being aware and I'm quite sure my mother was not aware of how her actions affected me.  Awareness of my own story has helped me be a better mom, recognize places I went wrong, make better choices when interacting with my son, discussing and apologizing for poor decisions I've made.  As parents we simply don't know what we don't know.

It's been a fascinating journey trying to understand myself and why I do and think the way I do, why I've made certain choices... .I know I sound just a tiny bit self-absorbed, but I think these journeys to understand ourselves make us stronger, more understanding, less self-destructive, healthier and ultimately lead us to our true authentic selves and more happiness... .and hopefully make us better parents to the next generation.

I've already broken the boys are better than girls message that I also received... .that wasn't too hard I only had one kid 

Panda39

[Turkish]

It still floors me how much power a parent has.  Whether the word is evil or dumb or some other projection, there is so much power in words and the person saying those words.

Indeed. I was discussing with my kids' mom today about his acting out. I'll give her credit for discussing it with me.  She shamed him publicly. He reacted and called her "stupid mommy." (I wonder if he mirrored her when she called her H in front of the kids "stupid [H]!"

She didn't know what to do. Her mom who was there told her "I know what I'd do if that were my kid!" Smack the crap out of him. It was unacceptable for our son to say that,  but grandma missed it: his mom shamed him publicly. That's their family dynamic: shame and punishment.  No validation at all.  And again I'll give my ex credits for trying.

As for your mother,  I'm reminded of James 3:9: With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse human beings, who have been made in God’s likeness. 10Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers and sisters, this should not be.


I read the spiritual (church) abuse blogs, and shame on your mother in her grave for shaming you like she did. I ask my kids? "What is God's law?" Love God, and love your neighbor (everyone).

One is lying if you claim the first but fail at the second, especially with children, as James implies .

[Harri]

I know I sound just a tiny bit self-absorbed, but I think these journeys to understand ourselves make us stronger, more understanding, less self-destructive, healthier and ultimately lead us to our true authentic selves and more happiness... .and hopefully make us better parents to the next generation.

Actually Panda, you don't sound self absorbed at all, not even a little bit.  What you said here is beautiful.

Turkish, I am glad you son spoke up to defend himself.  He did not do it in the best way but it was his version of saying No, you are wrong about me. 

I am curious about the spiritual abuse blogs.  What got you into reading them?  Is what my mom did talked about there? 

[Turkish]

Turkish, I am glad you son spoke up to defend himself.  He did not do it in the best way but it was his version of saying No, you are wrong about me. 

GREAT way of putting it! I'm going to use that. 


quote author=Harri link=topic=327399.msg12988599#msg12988599 date=1533082409]
I am curious about the spiritual abuse blogs.  What got you into reading them?  Is what my mom did talked about there? 

I'm not sure why I found them.  Paranoid? Maybe in more like my ex than I like to think 

Everyone knows about the RCC child abuses, but it may be almost as rampant in Protestant circles. Aside from child abuse, there is a penchant for immoral pastors and leaders to be reassigned elsewhere, when Biblically their moral failings clearly disqualify them from leadership. That's a conundrum given Protestant Sola Scriptura (follow The Bible is superior to Tradition). Another black mark is some circles Patriarchy, and abusing, in a sense, those in abusive marriages, mostly wives. Yet they forget The Least Of These. Those on need whom are cast aside and mistreated.  No matter their great works, Jesus is recorded as saying, "depart from me for I never knew you." The greatest commandment is "Love God." The second is "Love your neighbor as yourself." I think one is a liar to claim the first without doing the second. 

James, thought to be one of the brothers of Jesus,  wrote: James 3:9 With the tongue we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God’s likeness. 10Out of the same mouth come blessing and cursing. My brothers, this should not be! 11Can both fresh water and bitter water flow from the same spring?

I'm so sorry that your mother was a religious hypocrite (Jesus called the Pharisees "empty tombs" and they murdered him for it.  2000 thousand years later and humans are just as bad.  Justifying their evil by abusing others.

I'll give you a lot of credit for being a Survivor. My mother never pulled that crap on me. 

[Learning2Thrive]

... .The greatest commandment is "Love God." The second is "Love your neighbor as yourself." I think one is a liar to claim the first without doing the second.  ... .

To this point, if you do not love yourself, where does that leave your neighbor?

  L2T

[Turkish]

This is a great point. Self-hatred (shame) is projected, as it was or is for all of us here. 

[Harri]

L2T said: 

To this point, if you do not love yourself, where does that leave your neighbor?

Screwed.  Seriously though, I am not religious at all but i do believe in Jesus.  I've always believed that the self hate I have is a sin against God.  I did struggle quite a bit last year with wondering what the point of all this was (this being my childhood).  I used to believe I chose the life I had and the parents I had because I wanted, on a spiritual level, to learn something, though exactly what i wasn't sure.  I then had a rude awakening and realized that was a concept I latched onto to make sense of my experiences.  I am glad to be rid of the false belief but then I struggled with trying to understand why God would allow me to have the parents I did have.  My T saw it as a good thing that at the age of 50-51 I was finally asking Why did this happen to me.  Before I accepted it as my due because I was inherently flawed.

Now I realize there is no purpose or higher meaning and boy did I struggle with that when I first understood.  I am finally coming out of that struggle, of trying to find purpose and meaning in my life.  People here on this board and especially Panda and Kwamina have helped me with seeing that just being me is sufficient.  I am working on the self love. 

[Learning2Thrive]

... . that just being me is sufficient ... .

Sufficient is good. And it’s fine to feel that way. But, Harri, you just being you is so much more than sufficient. It is a glorious gift that you share with all of us. You are unique and incredibly intuitive. You are strong and kind and generous with us. You have so much to offer to this life. In this universe. I am thankful for you.

  L2T

[Turkish]

Every child wants to, needs to learn. Parents are, and should be, their shepherds. Kids (lambs) don't know other than the directions of the Sheperds to protect them from the wolves either real or imagined. If the shepherds are wolves themselves, then what are the lambs to do?

We are all damaged here in our various ways by our Shepherds. That isn't because we are defective. All beings are deserving of love.  

[Harri]

L2T, I think you have been here long enough to know that writing that kind of stuff to me was generally not allowed or caused me to run not so long ago.   Thank you for what you said and also for making the flame of hope within me burn hotter.  I have been finding purpose and meaning by posting here.  I have all of you to thank for that, so thank you.

Turkish, your kids have a good shepherd in you. 

[Learning2Thrive]

L2T, I think you have been here long enough to know that writing that kind of stuff to me was generally not allowed or caused me to run not so long ago.   Thank you for what you said and also for making the flame of hope within me burn hotter. 

Thank you for hearing it and receving “that kind of stuff”. 

I had a twinge of should I send this? ... .before I took the leap. For me it was easy to write because I’ve been following the board as mostly a lurker for many years until recently. It had to have been much more difficult to receive since you don’t have as much reference to me over the years. Thank you for trusting me enough to receive the heartfelt message. Your progress and sharing has contributed so much to me gaining courage to reach out, be vulnerable and begin to share.

Now, let’s turn that flame of hope into an amazing bonfire. I believe in us... .and our family here.  

  L2T

[Harri]

And so you went ahead and did *again*!   

Thank you for taking the leap and including me and all of us here in your journey.   

Now St-ahhh-p it! 

Thank you friend.   

[Learning2Thrive]

Turkish, your kids have a good shepherd in you. 

Snicker... .sorry... .I can’t help it!

 A shepherd in wolf’s clothing. 

To be clear, Turkish is an outstanding wolf-shepherd to his wolfpack. 

  L2T

[Turkish]

Lol.  Leave it to the dog brain to miss the obvious.  I tell my kids, "the better to see you with my Pretties!"

[Learning2Thrive]

Lol.  Leave it to the dog brain to miss the obvious.  I tell my kids, "the better to see you with my Pretties!"

Oh myyyyy, what big ears you have! *hoowwwlll*!

  L2T