Our anniversary is coming - What to do with the silent treatment? Part two

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

So if I had the time to work (with all my home handywoman responsibilities and garden and animal care duties) and if there were suitable jobs here in our little town that paid a worthwhile wage, I would do that, just to not feel vulnerable.

Cat, thank you for your heartfelt comment. I read about your husband forgetting your allowance in another post of yours and it did get me thinking. First, I am sorry too, that you have to experience that every month. It's not a good thing.      

Something I believe is happening with these behaviors is that we get to feel that our needs are not worthy enough for us to be respected. We are getting sort of trained to expect to not be respected in some weird way. It's not a conscious belief, it's more of an after effect. Than is turn it's more difficult for us to imagine what our lives might be like if we were free to do what we want. We sort of stay within a certain range of expectations. To me it's a difference between surviving and thriving.

When I just read your words for example, I saw immediately that you were talking about finding a suitable job, in your little town, paying a worthwhile wage. These tree conditions are not likely to be met by your environment. Same was my situation living at my spouse's house (small town). But that doesn't mean for you to not research alternative opportunities like working from home, or even like training a young help for your farm to take care of the animals when you get nearer your goal for a better wage earning job. Thing is, this whole situation is more of a journey than it is made with a bunch of hard facts. Sometimes my spouse would tell me  something about our slow economy. And I would respond to her 'I cannot afford to bother about the economy.'

Because in survival modes, well, you have to live.

So I believe that if your spouse is not supportive of you, yet you get paid every month when you ask him, it does have an effect on your sense of reality. Notwendy was touching that concept when she said that she could recover her self-esteem while going to work. For me it's more than just going to work now. It's to find, or even better to create my own sources of income. My spouse has an entrepreneurial spirit and I do have respect for that. People working in the tech industry have an instinct for that. But it goes by trial and errors.

In fact, I'm even not sure I wish to establish a pattern of allowances between my spouse and I for the long range. I'm not sure this is a wise choice. I think that as much as I can try new ideas, within a safe-ish range of exploration, she can do that as well, and we are both much happier in our life as it goes.

I would love to hear about the money managers around, what your take on this might be.

[braveSun]

So if I had the time to work (with all my home handywoman responsibilities and garden and animal care duties) and if there were suitable jobs here in our little town that paid a worthwhile wage, I would do that, just to not feel vulnerable.

Cat, thank you for your heartfelt comment. I read about your husband forgetting your allowance in another post of yours and it did get me thinking. First, I am sorry too, that you have to experience that every month. It's not a good thing.      

Something I believe is happening with these behaviors is that we get to feel that our needs are not worthy enough for us to be respected. We are getting sort of trained to expect to not be respected in some weird way. It's not a conscious belief, it's more of an after effect. Than is turn it's more difficult for us to imagine what our lives might be like if we were free to do what we want. We sort of stay within a certain range of expectations. To me it's a difference between surviving and thriving.

When I just read your words for example, I saw immediately that you were talking about finding a suitable job, in your little town, paying a worthwhile wage. These tree conditions are not likely to be met by your environment. Same was my situation living at my spouse's house (small town). But that doesn't mean for you to not research alternative opportunities like working from home, or even like training a young help for your farm to take care of the animals when you get nearer your goal for a better wage earning job. Thing is, this whole situation is more of a journey than it is made with a bunch of hard facts. Sometimes my spouse would tell me  something about our slow economy. And I would respond to her 'I cannot afford to bother about the economy.'

Because in survival modes, well, you have to live.

So I believe that if your spouse is not supportive of you, yet you get paid every month when you ask him, it does have an effect on your sense of reality. Notwendy was touching that concept when she said that she could recover her self-esteem while going to work. For me it's more than just going to work now. It's to find, or even better to create my own sources of income. My spouse has an entrepreneurial spirit and I do have respect for that. People working in the tech industry have an instinct for that. But it goes by trial and errors.

In fact, I'm even not sure I wish to establish a pattern of allowances between my spouse and I for the long range. I'm not sure this is a wise choice. I think that as much as I can try new ideas, within a safe-ish range of exploration, she can do that as well, and we are both much happier in our life as it goes.

I would love to hear about the money managers around, what your take on this might be.

[formflier]

One time I did ask her point blank if she preferred that I would get a PT job to reduce the burden, she said no. She doesn't .   

OK... I have a bit of a better idea of the dynamic.

There is some radical acceptance that I want you to think about... .think about the "impact" of this on you... going forward.

I want you to understand that when she said don't get a job... she meant it... thoughtfully... emotionally... .with all of her mind, body and spirit.

"poof"

Then she doesn't mean it...

"poof"

Then she means something else... .

It is very likely that she has the vaguest memories of feeling a different way and also very likely she feels shame or other negative emotion about not living up to her bargain.

So... I'd like you to give us a quick answer.  Where does this leave you?

I hope I remember to ask you this again in a week... month...

Radical acceptance... .

FF

[Notwendy]

Bravesun- just to clarify - my BPD mother is severely affected. Many children of such parents become “parentified” at an early age and I was. Although we are children- we take on adult roles and/ or perspectives. My father made a decent living but went into debt to provide for my mother’s out of control spending. The tension was evident in the family and we all compensated for it. When it came time to apply to college, my mother was all for the elite ones but I knew my dad could not afford it. It was my decision to apply to one that was affordable. The golden child actually tried to do the same but BPD Mom intervened and insisted he apply to elite ones and Dad would have to pay for it one way or another. You are correct that as a teen I had no experience with money management on a larger scale as an adult would but I did understand that my best chance of freedom from the BPD dynamics in my FOO was to be as financially independent of my parents as I could be. In a more expensive college I would be more subjected to the whims of my BPD Mom.

[Notwendy]

I also wanted to add that I think most marriages are uneven in terms of wage earning. I think it would not be common for two spouses to earn equal amounts if they had different jobs. When they are one family, the money is pooled and decisions about it are hopefully made as a team but I know one couple who has equal earnings and they share the house and childcare tasks equally. The most common arrangements I see are one spouse more at work while the other spouse devotes more time to home and children- if they have children or the home if they do not. Many of my female friends had careers that they put aside to do this. They don't earn a dollar wage but they do valuable work managing their homes and their families, and their husbands hopefully value what they bring to the marriage and family. I know a couple of husbands who stayed at home too.

This works, if the marriage is not dysfunctional and both spouses are able to work together to manage the family finances. Each spouse is an equal team mate. It breaks down with dysfunction and money is used as a weapon, to control, or fulfill a sense of entitlement and the spouses treat each other as unequals.

It is interesting to see what happens when the kids grow up and leave home. Some of the spouses continue to stay home and be the home manager, and others go back to work. I think it  matters less what the agreement is than how the spouses communicate and treat each other.

I think it is perfectly reasonable for a parent to control the amount of money a child gets for college and also discuss how college will be paid with the child and what is affordable and decide on a reasonable budget but the child also needs to know that the parents will be good on their word unless there are circumstances that make that not possible.

So does the dependent spouse. If the spouse is uncertain if there will be grocery or rent money and the other spouse is not communicative, it is a difficult situation and it affects the relationship.

[braveSun]

I think it is perfectly reasonable for a parent to control the amount of money a child gets for college and also discuss how college will be paid with the child and what is affordable and decide on a reasonable budget but the child also needs to know that the parents will be good on their word unless there are circumstances that make that not possible.

So does the dependent spouse. If the spouse is uncertain if there will be grocery or rent money and the other spouse is not communicative, it is a difficult situation and it affects the relationship.

Thank you Notwendy for sharing the nuances of your experience with your BPD mom. It is very much eye-opening. I see how the situation with your mom's erratic behavior would influence the lifestyle of everybody in your household, namely you all kids' judgements on what would be reasonable. Your father must have left a solid impression on you kids for you to elect the reasonable way. I also see the erosion effect on self esteem, yes.  Very enlightening.       

For a spouse, I'm not sure about the allowance method. I like to know about the whole picture and I like to know that I am taking good decisions while managing my own money. I prefer to apply my own restrictions on myself. Sharing with someone is so different. My spouse is not used to share the whole picture of her finances. Some parts I don't have a clue. But I also see she is not willing to look at her own patterns with spending, sharing, etc. Say if she spent too much one month and doesn't like if I have a peep into it because it's still only her money at this point. It's uncomfortable.

But because there are parts of her finances I don't know about, I can see the shame coming in sometimes, maybe a part of what FF you were talking about in the 'poof'... .She'll feel shame, and be angry at me for putting her on the spot (inadvertently, by default, just by being there).

Cat, I appreciate the clarity in your description of her pattern of control. It's hard for me to see plainly.

All in all, it's true that no matter the ways we decide within the couple, it's the stability, the communication and I'd add the transparency that matters in order for the two people to feel equal. Radical acceptance... a process of many layers...

Wow!... Such good thinking going on here!...    

I realize we're getting close to the thread limit. I'll be open to some more talks about this later... Will take you on on this one FF! 

[formflier]

It's interesting that I (personally) am on the opposite side of the money situation from braveSun

My wife earns a salary as a full time teacher... .I haven't a clue what she spends it on.  Perhaps that is a bit strong, she does stuff with kids... but I don't ask... she doesn't tell.

I bring in much more than that and last fall I severed the last financial ties with my wife.  The only way she gets access to money I bring in is by asking nicely and gaining my agreement.

Is it a measure of control on my part... yep.  Does my wife hat it... yep.

From where I sit, I see it as the "least toxic" of a bunch of bad choices.

I haven't asked... .but should.  Is there anything "of substance" that your wife complains about.

For instance... there was agreement you could spend $100... you spent $1000 without asking and then perhaps blamed her for your overspending.

I'm doubtful that it's there, but not a detail to overlook.

Hang in there... .I bet a roomie will show up soon

FF

[Notwendy]

I think the main issue underlying most marital problems is communication and agreements. In any marriage there are the big issues to consider when two different people combine their lives together. Money is one of them. It isn't a surprise that it is a common issue in a dysfunctional marriage. Managing these big issues requires good boundaries and communication skills which are lacking in these types of relationships. If we take all the different situations down to one issue it looks like this one: agreement ( lack of).

There was no way to make or keep a financial agreement with my BPD mother.

FF's wife repeatedly broke their financial agreements.

Cat's H made an agreement with her but keeps forgetting.

I assumed my H and I were on the same page when we discussed my staying home to raise the kids and then realized we both had different ideas about the status/role of the non wage earning spouse.

Basically ( for all cases) - there is the assumption of communication/agreement on our part but it either changes, or wasn't an agreement in the first place, or the agreement wasn't kept or forgotten. I think the communication issues affect more than finances, but finances are visible and essential to survival and that brings money into the spotlight.

[formflier]

FF's wife repeatedly broke their financial agreements.

 

And... .important to understand the "why"... .the agreement was abrogated.


My wife would sometimes keep the agreement for a long time... .then (to me) it would be inexplicable as to why she "went off the reservation".  There was usually some sort of emotional upset with her family... .that she would "project" onto me and the "fix" to things was to spend money on her family or give money to them.

For her (reading the tea leaves here... .) there would be a "quick emotional fix"... .people in her FOO took their positions on the drama triangle and for a short time "everyone was happy". 

She would be honestly befuddled as to why I would be upset... because "look how happy people are" (my happiness not being considered).

This was an emotional thing and not really a "cognitive" or "thoughtful" thing.

Note:  That really doesn't matter to me... .or a banker... or accountant.  Emotions don't change math (for me anyway)

Why go through all this.  My anger and despair over this really didn't help achieve "my goals".  Boundaries "fixed" the situation (at least from my point of view), yet my wife believes things have been made worse

So... .braveSun... .my hope is you can get "clear" in your head that money is about achieving your goals.  It's not about your partners feelings.  I would encourage you to control whether or not your goals in life are properly funded or not.

That would tend to mean that you see any money coming from your pwBPD as "bonus" money... .

How does all this seem to you?

FF

[braveSun]

And... .important to understand the "why"... .the agreement was abrogated.
... .This was an emotional thing and not really a "cognitive" or "thoughtful" thing.

I can see the similarity with my spouse. I noticed she has strong beliefs about how things should be regarding the costs of things, time it should take, etc... , and when these beliefs are not met, she gets angry. It doesn't seem rational. More like a disguised fear. In BW mode.

About the agreement, she did agree to support me while I am starting up my new life in the country, but in application, she got angry and critical very early in the process, than month to month, so the general experience did not feel like she was supportive of me. I ended up feeling like I was a burden to her. That's why I did ask her if she preferred I take a PT job quicker.

I both see your point about the dry facts of numbers, yet I find that money is very much about feelings. It's been my experience that our relationship to money has been quite different between her and I, actually it varies person to person. I tend to see that money issues are attached to feelings about personal security and also a part of identity (status). And power for sure. The need for it, the lack of it, etc...

So... .braveSun... .my hope is you can get "clear" in your head that money is about achieving your goals.  It's not about your partners feelings.  I would encourage you to control whether or not your goals in life are properly funded or not.

That would tend to mean that you see any money coming from your pwBPD as "bonus" money... .

I've been thinking hard about this for a while now. I tend to agree that it's best if I don't let her have power over my everyday like it's been (food, bills, rent). The instability warrants this. On the other hand, it's obvious that there are discrepancies in both our levels of income. And that it probably will remain this way. She will always be the one who makes more and who has more. With that in mind, I will have to think about what all of this means if I want to stay in the marriage.

I still don't know the particular of how I would like my financial life to be if I stay. I know that keeping two different standards of living would not work too well. But than, maybe more on the overall structure of the money she would share, there could be something more like I take care of my personal living expenses, and she provides more for projects or trips or other larger expenses. That might be the more simple way.

As far as today goes, well today is the one month mark of the ST. Still nothing.

[braveSun]

I think the main issue underlying most marital problems is communication and agreements. ... .If we take all the different situations down to one issue it looks like this one: agreement ( lack of).

  For me it was that we seemed to agree in principle, but in application she would have fits and changes of mind, than it became a battle overtime. She would say, after we were all in it, that she didn't want to pay for it anymore. Said this from month 2 on. So to answer FF as well, yes, so far she did keep her agreement, but it's clearly because she had to. As things got going she wasn't fully on board with it.

I assumed my H and I were on the same page when we discussed my staying home to raise the kids and then realized we both had different ideas about the status/role of the non wage earning spouse.

Basically ( for all cases) - there is the assumption of communication/agreement on our part but it either changes, or wasn't an agreement in the first place, or the agreement wasn't kept or forgotten. I think the communication issues affect more than finances, but finances are visible and essential to survival and that brings money into the spotlight.

      So true. 

[formflier]

Really good... clear answers... things are clarifying for me.  I hope it's helping you write this stuff out.

When she talked about supporting you, how long was that for?  What timelines were talked about... .realizing that there are no guarantees.

Did I understand correctly that the 2 month point was where she started getting weird? 

How many months in are we now?

How many months in did ST start?  What would you guess triggered her ST?

Did she tell you she was going to ST for a while? 

Is this ST different than previous ones... .?  How many previous ones?

Really trying to think of things I may have missed here.

When will you know for sure if the monthly support has shown up?  (how exactly does that happen?)

Do you have a credit card for emergencies?

FF

[braveSun]

It's interesting that I (personally) am on the opposite side of the money situation from braveSun

... .I haven't asked... .but should.  Is there anything "of substance" that your wife complains about.

For instance... there was agreement you could spend $100... you spent $1000 without asking and then perhaps blamed her for your overspending.

I'm doubtful that it's there, but not a detail to overlook.

Initially, I had an idea of the monthly budget, but didn't know the details on any credit card max amount. For a while there was not a clear amount where spending was deemed over-spending. Until it got to be. I'm speaking about one incident where she was upset that I had spent much more than her on my credit card. But, (this is where I believe her feelings came in strong) since both cards were on the same account, and she paid for both, it didn't occur to me that if I did use my card for things we did together or for the household expenses, she would get upset that I had a high amount on mine vs hers.

I think she didn't like to see that amount, and something about me spending that much more than her, that I was a big spender. It was not exactly true.  I went over every item with her and most of it was for things we spent together. We had a 3 nights stay in the city on it, some restaurant bills, some groceries, some household stuff I ordered for her room, and prescription glasses for myself. Things she would normally pay with her card. (My prescriptions are usually running higher than hers. She didn't like mine would cost more than hers.) All in all, 2/3 of those charges were not for my own personal expenses. But the bill was 3x higher than the month before.

Months later, she'd cut my credit card off, and started her campaign to refuse to buy the things I wanted or needed. For weeks it lasted...

Another time she wanted to buy a bed, and was not sure about getting some night tables that were good match for the bed. She told me to ask for a bundle price, and when I told her the price she was OK with it. Only later on, when she saw the actual charges on her card, she got angry because of the amount. To me it was not logical. I would argue with her and get upset that she would continue accusing me of being sneaky. I just had asked her!...   That type of thing.

[braveSun]

When she talked about supporting you, how long was that for?  What timelines were talked about... .realizing that there are no guarantees.

No timelines. Just making it work.

Did I understand correctly that the 2 month point was where she started getting weird?

Yes. We were in a time of the year where she historically is tighter. We both knew that.

About silent treatment. She had fits. Most of every month. Once while she was angry she said that she didn't want to speak to me again until I was having it together. I came back talking about that later on, when she was not angry anymore. Used SET than. I didn't want her anger to take away our good times together. She didn't either. It's been about 9 months now. She started ST a month ago. No warning, except that sad weekend when I went to visit her at her house to go to the show and she decided to not go and to drive me back to the city.

Triggers probably change from time to time. Sometimes I think it's just the frustration of the moment.  I am not sharing too many details of my activities because of the more details I share, the more she finds there is something I did wrong, and she'll hook into that idea. It fuels her anger. But than she doesn't get to see the progression in my efforts, so it's not very visible for her. That's a concern for me. She doesn't like to be just the one who pays, and I can relate to that. I tried to enroll her on my team a bit, but there I'm still learning on how to approach this.

There has been concerns about the people around her she would help from time to time and now that I'm here she cannot. I did SET on that as well and it seemed to help at the moment.

Another time it's that we cannot take any trips together. But when I offer her to take maybe a smaller trip nearby, we can't seem to get any ideas going. Maybe the heat now is a bit too much. (That can be another reason. We're in that time of the year where everybody's nerves are stretched by the intense heat.) She's been sharing of her feelings of depression in the mornings last month. Also that she has mood swings.

Some frustrations of her own. Contact with one of her sons, &/or her grandson can be triggering for her. Also contact with the friend who is staying PT with her.

 
Monthly support timings have been variable, but in the last few months she has deposited some money mid-month (bills time), and some at rent time. This month she didn't deposit mid-month. No credit card, only debit.

So far I have pushed the bills' due dates for this month. I will know if she does deposit before Aug rent is due.

ST that long is very rare. Only happened before a couple of times when we did have a break up. We've had smaller ones, like two days when we had arguments.

[formflier]

So... if you had stayed instead of agreeing to go back to the city with her... how do you think that would have played out?

FF

[braveSun]

So... if you had stayed instead of agreeing to go back to the city with her... how do you think that would have played out?

FF

Not sure to be truthful. I understand that you are suggesting that by letting her drive me back I did fail a test. Like I was not there for her. Am I getting this right?

If so (or not), can you unwrap a bit more on your idea?

Brave

[Notwendy]

Sometimes agreements are in the moment, and then reality is later, like with a credit card bill.Feelings can change and if they feel like facts, that is the reality in the moment.

We have taken some family vacations, mostly places my H wants to go. Finally, when we were talking about a family trip, I said there was a place I wanted to go and we had the chance to do that. The kids wanted to go and my H really seemed to like it and be agreeable on the trip. I thought we had a nice time. Then, later, when he was angry, he brought up the cost and said " I spent $$ to take you on that vacation" and acted bitter about it. This vacation cost less than some in places he wanted to go, but he didn't bring those up. Even if he and the children enjoyed the trip, somehow, because it was a place that I wanted to go- that made the cost my fault.

He'd invite me to dinner, and then later in an argument, say "I took YOU out to dinner". Yet, he invited me and he ate too. I thought it was " we went to dinner".


This too was said in the moment, and he doesn't mean it but he did in the moment.

But he is faithful with supporting us as a family, and that means a lot to know that. What someone says and someone does can be two different things, but it is important to see what they do.

I know you care about your marriage, but your wife has left you in a vulnerable situation. You can't control what she does, but if she has decided to not speak to you indefinitely, then your next step is what do you wish to do about it. Honestly, this situation is scary to me. You need to survive- food, a roof over your head and this situation is unpredictable.

[braveSun]

... .later, when he was angry, he brought up the cost and said " I spent $$ to take you on that vacation" and acted bitter about it. This vacation cost less than some in places he wanted to go, but he didn't bring those up. Even if he and the children enjoyed the trip, somehow, because it was a place that I wanted to go- that made the cost my fault.

He'd invite me to dinner, and then later in an argument, say "I took YOU out to dinner". Yet, he invited me and he ate too. I thought it was " we went to dinner".

Thanks Notwendy for those examples. It's like that between us too. That's a part of why I am conflicted. When we keep interacting on the day-to-day basis, I can manage to see that as 'that's the feelings of the moment' and 'feelings =facts on those moments'. I can modulate my fears, sort of. Not that I would want to continue exposing myself to that into the future. I am trying to sort this out for me now.

But he is faithful with supporting us as a family, and that means a lot to know that. What someone says and someone does can be two different things, but it is important to see what they do.

In the end, she did support me through the time I've been at the apartment. Begrudgingly, but did.
 
In my case, there is drug usage that muddles these good points. She also seeks counsel with her friends and family. One of her marijuana buddies who lives with her PT has multiple addiction issues and is kind of a bully. That friend is not supportive of our marriage. It has brought another dimension to the power imbalance between us. Right now I am not taken at face value, and my spouse is definitely scared that I am here to use her for her money. I don't want to panic regarding the ST, but it is scary yes.

I know you care about your marriage, but your wife has left you in a vulnerable situation. You can't control what she does, but if she has decided to not speak to you indefinitely, then your next step is what do you wish to do about it. Honestly, this situation is scary to me. You need to survive- food, a roof over your head and this situation is unpredictable.

If the rent doesn't get paid, she will get a notice about it. She is on the lease. She knows all of that. So that will come back to her in some ways and push for the conflict to come out in the open. We'll have to communicate than.

If things come to that, I don't know what I will do. There has been a few different scenarios in my mind over the last weeks. What do I want to do next? It appears that she may be going into a strategic plan to push me out. I don't know and I would prefer to witness that it's not the case, but more of some sort of 'feeling-oriented' type of reaction, not deliberate.

If there is deliberate strategic plan, I might have to leave the country. I will than ask her for money to leave and start over back in my country. Probably not the direction she wants to take, considering the recent new start she helped with in the city.

If there is not, I will see if and how much communication is possible, than take it from there.

Again, she might deposit money. There too, she might not deposit enough, and I might not feel solid enough to get another roommate on time for the beginning of the month. If that's the scenario, communication will have to be made. 

For now I don't know more.

I prefer to stay out of catastrophic thinking.

[formflier]

Not sure to be truthful. I understand that you are suggesting that by letting her drive me back I did fail a test. Like I was not there for her. Am I getting this right?

 

There is no way to know for sure... .and I can assure that the "thinking" likely won't make rational sense.

My gut says you "validated" abandonment fear on her part.  She "shooed" you away and "you ran"... .which "confirmed her suspicions" that you really didn't want to be with her.  I mean... if you loved her... you would have "fought" to stay by her side... she likes the city more anyway... .I'm not worthy of being loved... .and see how easily she walked away from MY show... .with MY art... .she didn't want to go anyway... .I knew it... .she only moved her to take my money... .because she doesn't want to be with me... or see my art... or go to my show... .

She even "made" me sleep by myself... .knowing how much I like to cuddle... .I can't believe I've been tricked again by someone that pretended to love me... .

Should I go on?

Again... clarity... .this is "reading the tea leaves" and we'll never know what she was thinking/feeling.  She probably doesn't remember either

By going along with it... "you" owned the abandonment.  If you had stayed and gone to show (alone even) and she ran away to the city... ."she" would have to own the abandonment... .and I don't think she would have done that.

Note... .she likely wouldn't have appeared happy if you stayed... .but I think (again best guess)... that she would have not triggered a big abandonment thing.

I get it... .I get it... .she "caused" the abandonment with her words... .that doesn't matter to her

FF

[formflier]

T It appears that she may be going into a strategic plan to push me out. 

There is VERY LITTLE chance she has a strategic plan... .

It appears to me she is very reactive... that tends to be problematic for planning.

So... .if you don't have anyway to leave the country... you need to get one... .that you can fund... and you need to keep that private.  NO DISCUSSIONs whatsoever with your spouse.  Zero... zip... .nadda... . 

This should never be a threat... .it would just be something you do because it makes sense for you.

Is it possible you can earn some income and keep that private?

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Unfortunately I can totally see her hanging out with her pot buddy and through the smoky lens of disappointment and paranoia, talking about how you are taking advantage of her. I know you are waiting for her to contact you, but my thinking is that rent will soon be due and if you get in touch with her now, instead of at the end of the month, it might be a better strategy.

If she thinks you've abandoned her and neither of you has reached out for a month, I'm not sure that waiting for her to contact you is the best strategy. This is a tough one. You don't have any connections who have been in contact with her to give you a birds eye view of what she's been talking about or thinking. So you're flying blind.

What do you think about interrupting her silent treatment?

[formflier]

What do you think about interrupting her silent treatment?

I'm with Cat Familiar on this one. 

How have other STs ended

[braveSun]

By going along with it... "you" owned the abandonment.  If you had stayed and gone to show (alone even) and she ran away to the city... ."she" would have to own the abandonment... .and I don't think she would have done that.

Note... .she likely wouldn't have appeared happy if you stayed... .but I think (again best guess)... that she would have not triggered a big abandonment thing.

I get it... .I get it... .she "caused" the abandonment with her words... .that doesn't matter to her

FF 

Thanks FF, that shines a light in some ways... I used to say that she was 'discouraged' and 'giving up' pre-emptively on the relationship when we had arguments and she would pull back. But they in general didn't last that long. I do think that living separately does not help with the reconnection part.

I may have a hard time to see 'abandonment' there, because I tend to think that for her it's more that she 'feels treated unfairly' by me. Like 'not a good enough partner'. Than going outside of the relationship to find counsel on the situation at hand. She seemed to be rather independent and competitive than. She has good friends and is very charismatic. There is triangulation potential there. True triangulation, or simply it takes time for her to digest the feedback they give her. 

But there in your example, ... .I must admit that I have a curiosity for this more.

[braveSun]

Unfortunately I can totally see her hanging out with her pot buddy and through the smoky lens of disappointment and paranoia, talking about how you are taking advantage of her. I know you are waiting for her to contact you, but my thinking is that rent will soon be due and if you get in touch with her now, instead of at the end of the month, it might be a better strategy.

If she thinks you've abandoned her and neither of you has reached out for a month, I'm not sure that waiting for her to contact you is the best strategy. This is a tough one. You don't have any connections who have been in contact with her to give you a birds eye view of what she's been talking about or thinking. So you're flying blind.

What do you think about interrupting her silent treatment?

It's damned of I do, and damned if I don't. I did call her 4 times I remember within the last month. Twice after 6 days of silence, and twice again after 2 weeks. She didn't reply. Today I thought about sending an email with the info about the amount I'll need for Aug 1. Not pretty, if I don't find a roommate, possibly OK if I do.

If I do contact her, most likely she will think that I am doing this because money is my only motivation. Aka, I email her because it's time to get money from her.

So far I'm new to this ST thing while I am at same time dependent on her. It's not that I don't wish to reconnect. I thought I had to wait for her to contact me back since she initiated it. I agree I'll have to communicate with her at some point, like as in LC fashion.

Cat, I much prefer to contact her a week before the deadline, yes. It's more my usual way. I'd talk about it over the phone when I would see that I will not have enough for an upcoming due date.

In a long ST period in the past we were in a breakup and I was living in my country, had my own job, etc...   It was hard to live with, lots of grieving for sure, but I was not dependent on her for my subsistence.

On the small scale ST, it was merely just times we used to take care of ourselves when we were in disagreement, so that we would return to communication after a while. Now I don't know quite what to do.

FF, ST ended after several months with a nice card she sent in the mail, than I called her, and than we resumed talking everyday.

Another time I remember was near the beginning of our relationship. We were in limbo very much at times because I was in the country on work visas, applying for permanent residency back than, but there were serious obstacles at times, and there were break ups because we would not see a future together.  One time I was very sad to have to be working far away from the city. She, had a home in the city, and I missed the opportunity to come and play, besides missing her. I decided to take an apartment in the city because of being so bored. I responded to an ad, and the landlady met me at the apt for a visit, than told me once we met that the apt was rented, but she had another one just opening she thought might be interesting. I followed her, and it turned out the apartment was lovely, and located three houses across the street from my spouse's home. So after I moved in, I connected with her and invited her to come see my new home. She loved that, naturally... We both did.

Such a good question!... Here  I am, not very much in a good position right now, but that was a good time than!...

Another time was a month last fall. I was the one who left. I had contacted her a few times within that month however. ST maybe lasted 2 weeks. Than we tried to talk.  The reconnect was that I asked her if she wanted to try to discuss our difficulties to blend our lives better. She said no. I than asked her to pick me up to come back home, so I could search for a place to go at the end of the month. Than I decided to go to NO and she got interested in helping me get started in the city. We had a good time with the nesting part. As it turned out, the apartment is lovely and is located 5 houses from the home she used to own back than (she sold that house about 18 years ago).

Yeah!...   Looks like I need inspiration right now, hey?...

 

[Cat Familiar]

What if you show up in person and say, “I miss you.” What do you imagine that would be like?

[braveSun]

I need a car to go there. I don't have a car now. One of her friend who lives nearby has a car, but she has gone to her sister in another state. I'm not sure she is in town.

I used to do that when I had my car before. Would drive there. Now when her smoking buddy is on the property I'd rather not. That's another limit on my spontaneity.

If I did contact her friend, she may or may not offer me to drive there. I wouldn't want to impose on her too much. I know she would not hesitate if my spouse was in an emergency. But for me to just go, she might not be so inclined.

It's kind of a big day, driving back and forth to the house.

But if I get access to a car, I think it's not a bad idea to go visit her.

Might not work for now.

[formflier]

FF, ST ended after several months with a nice card she sent in the mail, than I called her, and than we resumed talking everyday.
 

Tell me more about that ST.

What started it?

What did card say?

Did the "reason" for the ST get talked about and "solved" or "understood"?

FF

[braveSun]

The ST started when she came over to my home in my country to tell me that she was having an affair with a long time friend. We broke off.

It was a very nice card. A painting. And there were sweet words about our relationship over the years. A bit poetic. And she asked if I thought we had a chance again.

The reason for the break off was solved than. She had ended the affair.

Understood by her, yes. By me, overall yes. But I remained cautious.

This has all happened in the period we were in early recovery from a natural disaster. So there are vulnerabilities there that I would say are not necessarily resolved. Like recurring fears.

 

[Woodchuck]

Next week is going to be our second year anniversary. I have been in this relationship for 18+ years, and almost two years ago I came to join my SO in her country and married her.

Things have not been as I had expected between us however.

Something new that is now developing is that she has stopped answering my calls about two weeks ago. This is not usual from her at all. I'm starting to have concerns about what is happening with her.

Here is a bit of a backstory.
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=326642.0

In all of our history in the past, there certainly has been times where we didn't connect for a few days at a time, but never to this scale. Unless she had an affair, or we were in a break up. Break ups usually were very clearly stated as such, so no mystery going, nothing similar to this.

Little goes to say, I am learning everyday.

While I am not sure about what this might mean, I am trying my best to not let this peculiar behavior affect me. But it's becoming difficult to ignore as time goes by.

I called twice last week after 6 days of silence and was greeted by her voice mail. She sent an obtuse email back with 2 pictures. I replied saying I'd send pictures of my own back, but didn't.  Something in me was not feeling good about the situation, and I don't know what it was. I called her back instead, asking her to let me know if she was OK, if she had visit with her, so I could stop worrying. 

She didn't respond.

I texted a tenant living on the property to check on her, and the tenant replied that my spouse was OK, she was with her son and grandson.

Normally if my spouse has visits or something going on, she will let me know. Even if she doesn't want to talk, she'd call eventually and let me know.

So I had to make do and I did my best to take care of myself during the next days, thinking that she was OK, therefore she would call me back later.

Tonite however, I am starting to feel this is not a good thing.

I called again twice at the end of the day. Twice I got her voice mail. In both calls I left messages asking her to call me back, and specifically saying that I am now having concerns about this whole silence thing.

Now there has been times where she has treated me disrespectfully around phone communication before. And in the last month, in particular in the last interactions we've had together before this silence started, she has been quite difficult to be around.

She has rage fits. Some of the things that she said while in a fit was that I was causing her too much stress. That my life was causing her too much stress. I figured out I could leave this alone for a while and use the silence to 'concentrate on my life'. So far I have chosen to not let her words affect me. She can be saying the darnest things when she is dysregulating. I've learned it's best to not take these words at face value.

To be truthful, I don't like this behavior at all. I find it rude and disrespectful. I find myself going back and forth between thinking that I can't continue to let her treat me like this. However, I'm not sure on how to put a boundary with this since she doesn't answer my calls.

Any suggestions on how to navigate this situation would be greatly appreciated.

Brave -
I feel your pain with the dealing with the silent treatment.  It is one of the most painful things to deal with, at least for me.  The part that I find most difficult is that there is no set timeframe even when one is requested.  I find it extremely rude and disrespectful as well.  Over the past several months I have been able to start to focus on myself and doing things that make me happy when this starts happening.  It is not easy by any stretch but I believe it is beneficial.  I am usually consumed with anxiety due to whatever the conflict is and I just want to get it resolved and move on but she insists on laying in bed and not saying anything or simply stating that she has nothing to say.  I am able to start to preoccupy my mind by staying busy with a hobby or spending time with the kids, though the conflict never really leaves my mind.  It ends up causing more hurt for me when she snaps out of it and acts like everything is fine.  I have waited days if not weeks to talk and resolve things but suddenly everything is fine and the fact that I have left her alone for however long means nothing.  I guess just focusing on me and trying to realize that things are not going to change helps keep me a bit more calm.  As far as your anniversary, I don't remember the last time we celebrated ours.  We have been married 18 years and every year she states that she has not interest in celebrating x years of misery.  This year, I didn't even bring it up... .it was just another day.  Good luck and keep your head up!

[formflier]

The ST started when she came over to my home in my country to tell me that she was having an affair with a long time friend. We broke off.

 

Part of "dealing with" or "creating a strategy for" dealing with a pwBPD is to understand patterns.

OK... .so that was a significant silent treatment with a significant "reason" behind it.  While I don't know lots of details, it appears she owned this, reached out... .you appreciated this and cautiously re-entered the relationship.

Did you both consider the affair solved?  Reconciled? (whatever word you want to use).

OK... .between this significant ST... .and the current ST... .how many STs have their been, how long.  How did they end?

I think one or two sentences should suffice, unless you know something is significant.

for instance ( a two week ST happened a year ago because she was mad I let her dog run loose.  She figured out I had nothing to do with her dog getting out and reconnected with me.  We both agree we moved past this)

Patterns I'm looking for.  Do the STs end with "most" loose ends tied up.  Or do they end with with cover up and not talking about it.  If it is 50/50... .I'm even more interested in details to figure out "why" sometimes you can clean up a r/s mess and sometimes you can't.

Big picture:  I am still a fan of proactive action, however we need to be careful how to present it.  Relationship first and details (money) last.

I'm trying to figure out a SET where the support and empathy is talking about the relationship and missing the closeness and the "truth" is that in a marriage there are "business details" to handle.

Thoughts?

FF

[braveSun]

 :)id you both consider the affair solved?  Reconciled? (whatever word you want to use).

The affair was solved in the sense that she ended it and we got back together later. It was not fully resolved in the sense that I was not buying the reasons she gave me (it was not her fault, she had taken too many hormone supplements). So that took a chip off my full trust.

 OK... .between this significant ST... .and the current ST... .how many STs have their been, how long.  How did they end?

Since that time, there have been plenty of small silences when we did have arguments once we started to live together. But those were just 'take personal space' small breaks, not punitive moves. We were encouraged to take time off of each other, so we could regroup. That was OK.

I'd say 3 occurences would qualify as ST.

One was when our communication went down over an expense I needed her to take care of, while waiting for my immigration papers. She did go ST for maybe 2 weeks, than accepted my budget list and paid for it. The expense was something out of my control, not my fault. Resolved.

Another was when she started to 'disappear' from home, for hours at a time, and would not respond to my phone calls. Than came back home and we would not talk to each other until the next morning. This would recur at least once/week, sometimes several days/week for maybe 3 months. This never got resolved because she did feel angry at me for requesting that she lets me know when she left for long, even though she stopped doing it eventually. That took another, bigger chip off my trust.

A third time was when her son came for a visit for a week. Normally we talk everyday or every other day, and while she had her company, she would briefly say hello, and than say she didn't want to talk too much now, something like that. But at that time she stopped answering my calls for days. Maybe 5 days. It was not that long, but it was the breakdown of our communication and the brooding vibe that made it ST for me. There too she resumed the regular flow of communication after her son left, but the issue was not resolved for me. There too, another chip.

So for 3 ST, all of the conflicting behavior stopped, but 2 were still unresolved for me because I could not fully trust her after that. I would let it go later, and we would have nice time together again, each time, but I could never let my guards down completely.

  I'm even more interested in details to figure out "why" sometimes you can clean up a r/s mess and sometimes you can't.  

I can't forget that she can just ignore me abruptly, than doesn't apologize nor recognize my truth/experience in these situations.

Even if the behavior stopped, I am left thinking that the behavior can start again any time, and that what I want for a relationship I will not get.

No accountability for hurting my feelings and reserves the rights to do it again at her convenience.